China and the NBA/day 11/ Lebron weighs in

[ZB9]

Man you americans are too funmy....youcare to much for the problems wich china has in china while usa bombed half of the world......china makes some faults in china yes but you are terroricing like i sais half of the world so please shut the f up....

What i want to say is dont point to china with your stinky finger.....

"Half of the world"?

Give examples.

[MrDollarBills]

To strengthen an earlier point to those saying the NBA is silencing anyone:

Read on Twitter

Well done. So it was a case of over-zealous intervention on-location. But at any rate, the itchiness to resort to preemptive censorship is palpable.

Well done by who? There was obviously a directive given out to not allow or to avoid discussion of the whole ordeal. Saying "we're sorry" later on doesn't change that or it make it okay.

We don't know if there was a directive from the top of the league or if that was done by the Rockets independently.

[MrDollarBills]

Spoiler:

I don't think 1. that's apples to apples and 2. this is the correct context. Kerr, Pop, and LeBron are US citizens and speak openly about US issues. I don't know that they've been outspoken about foreign affairs with any consistency or to what extent. If they were, and then remained silent about China (and two of them haven't even if people don't like what was said), then sure, but as it stands, Kerr went the 'more knowledge to seek' route and Pop voiced support for Silver's second statement that stood up for the right of NBA personnel speaking out about issues important to them, essentially publicly willing to take a financial hit for making a clearer stand of its values.

That is not the argument from social justice.

Social justice goes with the argument "right is right and wrong is wrong"

"Right" has no boundaries, otherwise why are we concerned about what happens in other countries. Screw other countries then. Trump is criticized for being nationalistic and being "America first".

That is what Morey's argument was, that this about human rights. Not about Chinese rights or American rights.

"Fight for freedom, stand with Hong Kong,"

That has nothing to do with foreign affairs, that is a universal argument of fighting for freedom...or at least a westernized idea of what freedom is.

With Kerr going with the wait until I'm better informed before I answer is hypocritical based on past comments:

https://theundefeated.com/features/steve-kerr-kaepernick-warriors/

Kerr added: “Unarmed black people are being killed indiscriminately around the country. And that’s what happened two days ago. That’s the message. That’s what matters. The other stuff you can talk about all day. Nobody is right. Nobody is wrong.

Unarmed people being killed indiscriminately is what is important and nobody is right and nobody is wrong.

Kerr plans to support his team’s players in their views as long as their message on injustice is “clear.”

“Our guys have been asked a lot about it and they’ve done a great job responding,” Kerr said. “It’s a tricky topic. Not the Kaepernick situation, but social activism in general. It has to come from the heart. There are a lot of fans out there that say, ‘Stick to sports. We’re trying to get away from this by watching your team play.’

“I understand that. On the other hand, these guys have a voice. In my mind, as long as the message is clear, I’m all for people speaking out against injustice no matter what form that takes. If it’s nonviolent and leads to conversation, then I think that’s beautiful.”

This does not seem jibe with the situation in China. If Kerr does not have an opinion, then he must be ok with what is going on in Hong Kong.

https://theundefeated.com/features/san-antonio-spurs-gregg-popovich-is-the-nbas-most-woke-coach/

“He’s not the typical coach for sure,” San Antonio Spurs forward LaMarcus Aldridge told The Undefeated. “He’s in tune with what is going on around the world with people and with race. He’s not afraid to voice his beliefs and his opinions. He’s tried to help us realize that there are more things than basketball, more than the NBA.

Pop has cultivated this persona that he is "woke" and culturally aware and progressive on social issues.

“There is a big world out there and a whole lot of stuff going on,” Popovich told The Undefeated. “The more aware people are, the better off. For our team, since we have so many people from so many different areas, it helps us come together when they realize how big the world is.

This sounds like a convenient cop out.

Deadspin, which is as progressive as they come calls them both out on their weak answers to the situation:

https://deadspin.com/meatball-president-criticizes-nba-coaches-for-weak-stat-1838927582

Those critics, Steve Kerr and Gregg Popovich, were asked to comment this week on Morey’s tweet and commissioner Adam Silver’s handling of the situation, respectively. Kerr was either daunted by the historical complexity of China’s conflict with Hong Kong, or cowed by the potential consequences of getting in trouble with China’s vengeful government—either way, he declined to say anything of substance. Popovich oversold the hell out of the courage and first-amendment leadership of Silver’s various wimpy non-statements, and came no closer to acknowledging the NBA’s yucky entanglement with the Chinese government than gesturing at “economic peril” and “principles that we all hold dearly.” Whatever external pressures might be weighing on people who draw their incomes from the NBA these days, these were disappointing answers from coaches who generally do better.

I'll ask again: they've been consistent with speaking out about specific domestic issues. What specific foreign issues have they been consistently speaking out about that not speaking about HK protestors would stand out as an anomaly? I understand what Morey did, and that it's a human rights issue, but you want Kerr and Pop to be informed and speak out about each thing that comes up anywhere they are?

It's not a woke 'persona' when you start basketball clinics in underprivileged communities in SA, support work against wrongful conviction, hold fundraisers for the food bank, expose players to issues beyond basketball - there are dozens of examples, these are but a few, so it's consistency of character. (I can't speak about Kerr's involvement in the Dubs community as I don't follow it but perhaps GS fans can better attest to it, but he has been consistent about speaking out about specific issues in the US).

Silver reiterated the NBA's values in the context of an American company. Pop praised him for the stance; again, you can take a position without antagonizing. The NBA took a hit for Silver's reiteration of its values. The ongoing clash is because the NBA has stood up for its values, not because it has abandoned them.

Adam Silver literally stood up there and defended Morey and the players' right to freedom of speech. I don't know why certain folks continue to push this garbage narrative, or want to see the players and these two coaches speak out on international issues when we've never seen them do that in the past, just domestic issues.

It's a bad faith argument from people who are upset that the NBA has taken progressive stances in the face of American bigotry, inequality, and racism.

[G R E Y]

Well done. So it was a case of over-zealous intervention on-location. But at any rate, the itchiness to resort to preemptive censorship is palpable.

Well done by who? There was obviously a directive given out to not allow or to avoid discussion of the whole ordeal. Saying "we're sorry" later on doesn't change that or it make it okay.

We don't know if there was a directive from the top of the league or if that was done by the Rockets independently.

Given that the NBA is clarifying that this was from the Rockets PR person and this is not the way the league operates, either we take it at face value or have to prove they're dishonest.

[Fencer reregistered]

Man you americans are too funmy....youcare to much for the problems wich china has in china while usa bombed half of the world......china makes some faults in china yes but you are terroricing like i sais half of the world so please shut the f up....

What i want to say is dont point to china with your stinky finger.....

"Half of the world"?

Give examples.

Putting aside the word "terrorism", the US has indeed bombed a lot of Europe, a lot of East and Southeast Asia, and a lot of the Islamic world. We've also backed evil repressive governments, guerrila fighters or both in much of the world, including most of the areas I didn't previously mention. So this isn't a totally crazy view, although it's hyperbolic, context-free, and anybody beside the point to what we're discussing regarding China.

[G R E Y]

And there it is. There's a big stake for both sides, and after the sabre rattling:

Read on Twitter

[MrDollarBills]

Well done by who? There was obviously a directive given out to not allow or to avoid discussion of the whole ordeal. Saying "we're sorry" later on doesn't change that or it make it okay.

We don't know if there was a directive from the top of the league or if that was done by the Rockets independently.

Given that the NBA is clarifying that this was from the Rockets PR person and this is not the way the league operates, either we take it at face value or have to prove they're dishonest.

I think we can take that statement at face value for now, they basically threw the Rockets under the bus (you have to imagine the rest of the league isn't thrilled with them right now).

I'm curious if the sign confiscation issue is also at the behest of the individual clubs?

[Vugivugi]

Man you americans are too funmy....youcare to much for the problems wich china has in china while usa bombed half of the world......china makes some faults in china yes but you are terroricing like i sais half of the world so please shut the f up....

What i want to say is dont point to china with your stinky finger.....

"Half of the world"?

Give examples.

Korea and China 1950-53 (Korean War)
Guatemala 1954
Indonesia 1958
Cuba 1959-1961
Guatemala 1960
Congo 1964
Laos 1964-73
Vietnam 1961-73
Cambodia 1969-70
Guatemala 1967-69
Grenada 1983
Lebanon 1983, 1984 (both Lebanese and Syrian targets)
Libya 1986
El Salvador 1980s
Nicaragua 1980s
Iran 1987
Panama 1989
Iraq 1991 (Persian Gulf War)
Kuwait 1991
Somalia 1993
Bosnia 1994, 1995
Sudan 1998
Afghanistan 1998
Yugoslavia 1999
Yemen 2002
Iraq 1991-2003 (US/UK on regular basis)
Iraq 2003-2015
Afghanistan 2001-2015
Pakistan 2007-2015
Somalia 2007-8, 2011
Yemen 2009, 2011
Libya 2011, 2015
Syria 2014-2015


Dont cry now because i said half of the world because it isnt...but thats more than enough and you will continue..

[MrDollarBills]

And there it is. There's a big stake for both sides, and after the sabre rattling:

Read on Twitter

Surprise, surprise....

[G R E Y]

We don't know if there was a directive from the top of the league or if that was done by the Rockets independently.

Given that the NBA is clarifying that this was from the Rockets PR person and this is not the way the league operates, either we take it at face value or have to prove they're dishonest.

I think we can take that statement at face value for now, they basically threw the Rockets under the bus (you have to imagine the rest of the league isn't thrilled with them right now).

I'm curious if the sign confiscation issue is also at the behest of the individual clubs?

Yeah I'd like to know more about that. There were, I think, two incidents now? It may have something to do with arena rules. It would be good to compare to other signs at arenas, but I can't think of any overtly political ones (signs are checked at entrances to make sure they're not so incendiary against opponents).

[GusFring]

https://youtu.be/FRLLW0BSa84

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There you have it. Chinese state-run TV suggesting that criticism of Chinese foreign policy is not acceptable.

Well, I beg the pardon of the good people running the show of the Chinese government, but they're going to find out the hard way that in the west, criticizing another country's foreign policy, is acceptable.

As a Chinese person from Hong Kong, I did find Morey's comment irresponsible, ignorant and highly misinformed. I can also tell you that most Chinese fans and people in China are united in our support of the Chinese government's tough stance towards the NBA.

My wife and I share the opinion that the Chinese government's reaction to Morey's remarks, while a bit extreme, is also understandable. We side with the Chinese government because his comments add fuel to a crisis that is already hurting our country and city's social stability.

I love my country. So to hear people making ill-informed and deeply ignorant remarks about my city's internal affairs does bother me, as it does to a lot of people in China.

Don't forget, the NBA profits from the jerseys we buy, the subscription fee we pay to watch NBA games, and the exhibition matches we attend. It's not cheap either.

So if you're earning our country's hard earned cash, I reckon it's only fair you respect our culture, values, people by refraining from making ignorant and senseless remarks.

Just because it's okay in your culture, doesn't mean it's okay in mine.

Do you even know the first thing about what is actually happening in HK? Or are you just getting your information and making snap judgements based on garbage news sources such as the Clinton News Network (CNN) and Trump TV (Fox)? I do. And I can tell you it's nothing like what is being portrayed in the propaganda machine that is the Western media.

Freedom of speech doesn't mean you can say whatever you want without inhibition or respect for cultural norms. If that were true, it would mean I am free to make racial slurs against people of colour. Why not? That's my right to free speech no?

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bot confirmed.

[lakerz12]

Well done. So it was a case of over-zealous intervention on-location. But at any rate, the itchiness to resort to preemptive censorship is palpable.

Well done by who? There was obviously a directive given out to not allow or to avoid discussion of the whole ordeal. Saying "we're sorry" later on doesn't change that or it make it okay.

We don't know if there was a directive from the top of the league or if that was done by the Rockets independently.

It's bad either way. The Rockets are a part of the NBA. I'm just not sure how the NBA or anyone there deserves a "well done" whatsoever. They are leading this whole pro-mainland China campaign.

[MrDollarBills]

Given that the NBA is clarifying that this was from the Rockets PR person and this is not the way the league operates, either we take it at face value or have to prove they're dishonest.

I think we can take that statement at face value for now, they basically threw the Rockets under the bus (you have to imagine the rest of the league isn't thrilled with them right now).

I'm curious if the sign confiscation issue is also at the behest of the individual clubs?

Yeah I'd like to know more about that. There were, I think, two incidents now? It may have something to do with arena rules. It would be good to compare to other signs at arenas, but I can't think of any overtly political ones (signs are checked at entrances to make sure they're not so incendiary against opponents).

I believe it was WAS and PHI who confiscated signs. Philly literally kicked out the sign holders (which I think is disgraceful and more heat should be coming down on Philadelphia's ownership for that).

[MrDollarBills]

There you have it. Chinese state-run TV suggesting that criticism of Chinese foreign policy is not acceptable.

Well, I beg the pardon of the good people running the show of the Chinese government, but they're going to find out the hard way that in the west, criticizing another country's foreign policy, is acceptable.

As a Chinese person from Hong Kong, I did find Morey's comment irresponsible, ignorant and highly misinformed. I can also tell you that most Chinese fans and people in China are united in our support of the Chinese government's tough stance towards the NBA.

My wife and I share the opinion that the Chinese government's reaction to Morey's remarks, while a bit extreme, is also understandable. We side with the Chinese government because his comments add fuel to a crisis that is already hurting our country and city's social stability.

I love my country. So to hear people making ill-informed and deeply ignorant remarks about my city's internal affairs does bother me, as it does to a lot of people in China.

Don't forget, the NBA profits from the jerseys we buy, the subscription fee we pay to watch NBA games, and the exhibition matches we attend. It's not cheap either.

So if you're earning our country's hard earned cash, I reckon it's only fair you respect our culture, values, people by refraining from making ignorant and senseless remarks.

Just because it's okay in your culture, doesn't mean it's okay in mine.

Do you even know the first thing about what is actually happening in HK? Or are you just getting your information and making snap judgements based on garbage news sources such as the Clinton News Network (CNN) and Trump TV (Fox)? I do. And I can tell you it's nothing like what is being portrayed in the propaganda machine that is the Western media.

Freedom of speech doesn't mean you can say whatever you want without inhibition or respect for cultural norms. If that were true, it would mean I am free to make racial slurs against people of colour. Why not? That's my right to free speech no?

Sent from my SM-C9000 using RealGM mobile app

bot confirmed.

Also note the quick pivot to racism at the end there. He's definitely some pro CCP Nationalist troll.

[Pennebaker]

Man you americans are too funmy....youcare to much for the problems wich china has in china while usa bombed half of the world......china makes some faults in china yes but you are terroricing like i sais half of the world so please shut the f up....

What i want to say is dont point to china with your stinky finger.....

"Half of the world"?

Give examples.

Germany, Japan, Italy, Korea, Vietnam, Loas, Lebanon, Cuba, Congo, Libya, Thailand, Dominican Republic, Bolivia, Cambodia, Zaire, Grenada, Panama, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Bosnia, Haiti, Serbia, Sudan, Kenya, Uganada, Yemen, Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Syria

Who haven't we bombed?.... would be a better question.

[G35]

I'll ask again: they've been consistent with speaking out about specific domestic issues. What specific foreign issues have they been consistently speaking out about that not speaking about HK protestors would stand out as an anomaly? I understand what Morey did, and that it's a human rights issue, but you want Kerr and Pop to be informed and speak out about each thing that comes up anywhere they are?

It's not a woke 'persona' when you start basketball clinics in underprivileged communities in SA, support work against wrongful conviction, hold fundraisers for the food bank, expose players to issues beyond basketball - there are dozens of examples, these are but a few, so it's consistency of character. (I can't speak about Kerr's involvement in the Dubs community as I don't follow it but perhaps GS fans can better attest to it, but he has been consistent about speaking out about specific issues in the US).

Silver reiterated the NBA's values in the context of an American company. Pop praised him for the stance; again, you can take a position without antagonizing. The NBA took a hit for Silver's reiteration of its values. The ongoing clash is because the NBA has stood up for its values, not because it has abandoned them.

I've addressed this point before.

I was born overseas, lived in three different countries, been to almost every state in the United States multiple times.

I do not feel qualified to address "specific domestic issues".

I don't know what's going on in Ferguson right now.

I live 45 minutes away from Fruitvale BART station, I can't tell you everything that is going on in Oakland.

I'm not privy to what is going on in Clearwater, FL and the stand your ground rationale.

I don't know the details of why the water is bad in Flint, MI outside of what the media reports.

Right now as we speak, how much of the country is aware of the energy blackouts in Northern CA by PG&E and why they are happening?

I'm aware because my wife did a report on it and gave me the details of why PG&E caters to San Francisco and leaves rural areas unattended. How many other US citizens outside of CA know that?

The point is, people speak on topics that they are not well versed on all the time. That is why we have so many apology tweets saying they need to get more educated on the issue.

I'm sure Kerr and Popp don't know much more than we do on domestic topics outside of news feeds. In fact, I bet we discuss these topics just as much as they do. Does not make us experts or able to have an educated conversation on those topics. We are assuming that these coaches, just because they are in the eye of the media, they somehow know more than we do. Why? What do they say that makes them more educated on these social justice topics. Kerr himself, said no is one right, no one is wrong.

If you are not in the specific community that is being discussed, how do you know anything? Just like you just said, you can't speak for Kerr because you are not in the Bay Area community.

So how can you say they are being consistent on domestic issues? Domestic reaches from Hawaii, to Alaska to all four time zones in the US. That is a lot to be aware.

You are saying they are consistent about certain domestic issues in a generalized way, but that is no different than what they could have said about China. They could have given a generic answer as they do to these other topics that are not intimate with......

[Hroz]

Cheers. I think I knew about half of that.

So, Turkey is moving into Syria to attack an ethnic/political group it claims is identical to a separatist group within its own borders?

I ask these questions seriously, not rhetorically. What do you think Trump should do if not leave? Stay until...? If the Turks have been slaughtering Kurds for a hundred years or more, does the American military need to stay there for a hundred years or more in order to protect them?

I just read a WaPo article on it. Seems the official government statement says Turkey has agreed to keep all ISIS fighters in custody. If they let any escape, I wonder who will ever believe Turkey again.

Also, it seems to me that if the PYD is doing most of the fighting - or carrying the heaviest load - and has been able to create and maintain a safe haven, then maybe the US' presence isn't so necessary. Or does the US only need to be there to keep Turkey from invading? To which, again, I would ask how long the US would have to stay there in order to prevent a Turkish invasion.

It sounds like a terrible situation, that's for sure. I've always only ever heard good things about the Kurds, whatever that's worth.

What do I believe?
I think the USA should stay, but you're right. USA can't stay there forever and I'm not in the military so how much right do I have. I think it's just a bad look for the USA for the future conflicts though. If USA are dragged into another war, how much confidence can another group have in the USA's word.
In Syria we mostly provided the Airforce and missile support to the Kurds who were our ground force. Without the air force and missile support that the Kurds lack it would be hard to hold their ground.

But US presence also meant Kurds weren't attacked not by the Turks but also the Syrian army. USA exit means Kurds will be stuck between Russia & Syria on one side & Turkey & Free Syrian Army on the other.

When Turkey bombs Syrian camps I think this might create enough chaos for the escape of ISIS fighters. I'm not sure how Turkey can keep ISIS fighters in custody. They are held by the Kurds if the Kurds and nobody seems to want to take responsibility for them.

Interesting. I think there was a guy yesterday on here saying he's heard directly from Christian Kurds in Syria that the only thing keeping them alive is Assad. How does that jive with your comment that the US presence protected the Kurds from the Syrian army? It sounds like a very complicated situation that is no doubt rife with misinformation. I've spent ten (actually, twelve... times flies) years learning about China/Taiwan, etc., but only know the broadest of outlines of the situation in Syria.

When the war started there were 2 sides the Alawites (Assad) and Sunni (rebellion(led by Free Syrian Army)
Kurds sided with Assad as did all minorities the large number of Fundamentalist Sunnis in the rebellion(Al Qaeda was aligned with the free Syria Army for the first 2-3 years of the rebellion) made it such they didn't feel safe.
The Kurds took control of their land for Assad but then
Kurds ended up being the only reliable fighting force the US could find vs ISIS. (Sunnis were more interested in attacking Assad) (Assad were more interested in fighting Free Syrian Army) (ISIS in Syria wasn't a strong force they took easy land in the East that was mostly countryside) (Assad actually released Islamic fundamentalists from jail knowing they would join the rebellion and the West wouldn't support them so would be forced to support him)

US military power and promises meant Kurds broke away from the Assad and a belief that they could have some sort of state freedoms for their land came up.

From reports I've read Minorities in Kurdish held areas have had the most rights followed by Assad followed by the Sunni areas.

Partly due to the ideas of each group.
Kurds want equal rights and has been a key to their fight.
Assad leads a minority group that knows it needs other minorities to keep power vs the majority (Sunni)
The Free Syrian Army though some want democracy have seen indiscriminate bombing of them by Assad with support from minorities and many have seen the minority groups as part of the Assad regime and as traitors.
Leading to violence against minorities in lands ruled by Sunni forces.

[vamos]

i have not commented on this topic because i am highly uninformed on international politics, but I do want to express how grateful I am for the time and energy that so many have put into these discussions.

As an American that is not politically inclined, I now know more about the history of Hong Kong, the broad strokes of the Chinese value system, and the relationship between the Chinese people (at least certain individuals who are for whatever reason free to talk) and their government. I hope that the Chinese people who have participated also gained an understanding of why Americans are so passionate about our freedom of speech - as without that freedom none of this conversation and exchange of ideas would have even been possible.

This discussion, as fraught with misunderstanding as it has been, has provoked numerous members to do research and bring facts and links to the group, has prompted conversations about fundamental beliefs, and in my humble opinion made us all a little more informed. I appreciate that very much.

[seccom]

There you have it. Chinese state-run TV suggesting that criticism of Chinese foreign policy is not acceptable.

Well, I beg the pardon of the good people running the show of the Chinese government, but they're going to find out the hard way that in the west, criticizing another country's foreign policy, is acceptable.

As a Chinese person from Hong Kong, I did find Morey's comment irresponsible, ignorant and highly misinformed. I can also tell you that most Chinese fans and people in China are united in our support of the Chinese government's tough stance towards the NBA.

My wife and I share the opinion that the Chinese government's reaction to Morey's remarks, while a bit extreme, is also understandable. We side with the Chinese government because his comments add fuel to a crisis that is already hurting our country and city's social stability.

I love my country. So to hear people making ill-informed and deeply ignorant remarks about my city's internal affairs does bother me, as it does to a lot of people in China.

Don't forget, the NBA profits from the jerseys we buy, the subscription fee we pay to watch NBA games, and the exhibition matches we attend. It's not cheap either.

So if you're earning our country's hard earned cash, I reckon it's only fair you respect our culture, values, people by refraining from making ignorant and senseless remarks.

Just because it's okay in your culture, doesn't mean it's okay in mine.

Do you even know the first thing about what is actually happening in HK? Or are you just getting your information and making snap judgements based on garbage news sources such as the Clinton News Network (CNN) and Trump TV (Fox)? I do. And I can tell you it's nothing like what is being portrayed in the propaganda machine that is the Western media.

Freedom of speech doesn't mean you can say whatever you want without inhibition or respect for cultural norms. If that were true, it would mean I am free to make racial slurs against people of colour. Why not? That's my right to free speech no?

Sent from my SM-C9000 using RealGM mobile app

bot confirmed.

The bot never really address the real issue, CCP government tries to strong arm the NBA to prevent a free person speak out.

As long as the speech is NOT racist, call of violent or fire in a theater, no government (even NK and PRC) on earth SHOULD not stop it.

[fbalmeida]

Whomever or whatever he/she is, the idea that a specific form of government is entitled to exemption from open public scrutiny for some cultural reason is about the oldest farcical tale there is for the perpetuation of unchecked power. An obvious fact for anyone with a remote familiarity with European history, for instance.