How good was Giannis' MVP season?

[RRyder823]

Giannis isnt impactful now?..... Well that's a new one

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[Xanadu]

Please let me know if you disagree and still think Giannis isn't skilled because JuPmErs. If you have are the opinion that his numbers are inflated due area you right. In fact that's kinda of a proven fact for all players isn't it? Steph Curry is still the greatest shooter every. But he wouldn't been able to achieve his records so quickly if not for the massive advantage given to perimeter players. In fact Giannis gets much less help due to era than Harden or Curry. The new rules encourage outside shooting and play. Drawing a foul as a jump shooter is sickeningly easy. That creates free space and makes defending them hard without fouling damn near impossible. For Giannis defenses already sage away due to his lack of a jumper. Which is kinda of a bad idea if given the space to attack he is almost more dangerous. When able to build a head of steam without getting checked it gives him some many options. He can just bulldoze his way or change direction lighting face. Use his dreaded eurostep (travel for those who don't know the rules) more effectively than anyone perhaps every. Well his ridiculous stride is important it just turns from perhaps best in league to best ever. Ok that's my opinion so getting of track. But his ability to use the euro so effectively and in different ways is crazy. Euro through a entire defense early in clock for easy jam. Euro into a floating double clutch in which he attracts three defenders attention. Then next time when the defense bites one his euro he flings a mid air bullet to the open man. Passing another skill he at least good at. Well there's room for improvement here he has some of the most impressive passes I have ever seen. The falling out of bounds behind the head to open shooter comes to mind. His accuarcy is my gripe with his passing. See I even know he isn't perfect. But his ability to bait the defense when and react quickly make him a good passer.
Finally those saying Toronto exposed him want that to be true. I am sorry it isnt. What we see wasn't a superstar getting exposed but a young man who wasn't ready for the moment. While it wasn't even close to being his fault he deserves a good share off it. Toronto got into his head and rattled him. Those saying Leonard shut him down didn't watch. First Leonard became his primary defender. So first they put one of the best perimeter defenders EVER one him. A guy credited with slowing down a top 3 all time player in the finals. Then they basically played something lack a 3 man zone of help defenders. Gasol in the middle another Dpoy. Although not at his physical prime was still one of the best post defenders in the league. Add that to his experience captaining a team who was always a top defensive team. Then on the other help defender was the poor man's Giannis himself in Pascal. A player who like Giannis was a explosive help defender with a natural shot blocking ability. Finally we have Ibaka who wasn't ever consider a great defender. Wait that's right he was also a widely known defense stalwart. Also out of his prime his ability to play Garnett style d was the final piece. A guy who throws that elbow in your ribs talks trash. A physical defender who could metaphorically kick Giannis when he was down. It along with a team wide shooting slump lead to a game 3 loss that shattered his usual steady quiet confidence. It's apperant after the fact because he becomes more hesitant than he's been in two years. The attention he received should of lead to a lot of open shooters. Well it did the shooting woes of the whole team made him hesitate passing. He wanted to win so bad he began thinking instead of playing. So I guess he isn't a top player. He shrunk under the pressure and no all time great has done that in the playoffs before. As soon as they reached the playoffs they won every game while carrying the team when needed. Oh wait that's right almost every great had to get beat sometimes a few times before finally breaking through. Even teams with not only a star widely consider top 3 of all time in his peak. But two other sure fire HOF lost and crumbled before winning. Last point Gisnnis isn't even to his basketball prime yet. So before labeling him as being exposed let's give him a fair shot at least. How times did LeBron fail before he finally got there. Hell Giannis first decent team not to mention first season under a real coach. Hell he went from Drew to Kidd. Two guys who are both not even college level coaches imo. In fact those who say well at least Kidd help Giannis development didn't watch games. If anything he improved despite Kidd's coaching. His decision to ban Giannis from shooting threes did lasting damage in many fans minds. So let's see how Giannis does with his first real coach of his nba career. Thankful we great coach this time but honestly even a average coach would've got us a 4th seed because of Giannis.

[Xanadu]

Lol fair enough. Simple summary a lack of a step back jumper doesn't make him unskilled. His at least good offensive skills include but aren't limited to.
Ball handling
Finishing ability
Passing
Body control

[Nacho Bidness]

How good was Giannis' mvp season?

Not as good as the season Harden had the same year

[bronxknicksfan1]

How good was Giannis' mvp season?

Not as good as the season Harden had the same year

Right. It was better

[truly]

Post #12. Top 20 replies of all time.

That post had me wondering how many of the and-1s in the screenshots are from gooner

[truly]

Giannis is crazy overrated at this point.Maybe if he had actual go to moves/ISO skills, this level of hype would be warranted.He's a phenomenal athlete with a shiny stat sheet, but I wouldn't consider him a #1 option.Great 2nd option.When the games really count(Playoffs), he's not all that hard to scheme against because his offensive repertoire's limited.I'm only this critical of him because people act like he's the best player in the league.He might have the best stats, but he's not the best player.He's built for the regular season.In the playoffs, I can think of plenty players I'd rather have on my team.

I agree. I think because people want to like Giannis they want him to be the next great thing. So they tend to overrate him and overlook the glaring holes in his game.

The 24 year old league MVP is already the next great thing.There is no "want" here.

[koningcosmo]

Not even top 50 regular seasons of all time

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30+ PER, .290 wins shares per 48+, 10+ Box-plus minus, 7+ value over replacement player has been done 10 times in NBA history (since early ‘70s at least).

LeBron in 2009, 2010, 2012, 2013
Jordan in 1988, 1989, 1991
Curry in 2016
David Robinson in 1994
Giannis last year

http://bkref.com/pi/shareit/u43lY

Even a 28+ PER, .275 WS/48+, 9+ Box pus minus, 7+ VORP has only been done 16 times

http://bkref.com/pi/shareit/Kr2tT

That’s before we even mention his RPM, AuPM, RAPM, PIPM Numbers that measure his impact that puts him into into rarefied territory as a DPOYish caliber player who’s the first option on offense.

Giannis had a special, special year

You're so well versed in stats and yet you still use per. I don't understand.

thats because the people who make those lists abuse stats, the more stats u use the more u can cherry pick to paint the picture you want to present. Thats why in data analytics, the data isnt used to bring up an argument or to prove something but rather to recognise patterns within the data and try to make prediction with it for the future. Thats why alot of people will refer to the "eye test" when talking about basketball greatness rather then plain stats.

[old skool]

I can see how someone can have the opinion that Harden was the MVP last season, but only if one is looking at part (albeit most) of his season and only if one values scoring over all else.

Harden came into the season out of shape. He played poorly to start the year and was a big reason that his team fell so far behind in the standings. He was an incredible scorer for most of the year - the best in the NBA.

Antetokounmpo played consistently great basketball all year, leading his team to the best RS record in the NBA. He had a great season on both ends of the court. He was a dominant player on offense and defense - not the best in either category, but arguably the best when looking at the combination of both offense and defense. With that in mind, it is easy to see why he won MVP by a wide margin.

[MartyConlonOnTheRun]

Not as good as his second MVP season?

[ShotCreator]

A 30 PPG, 64 TS% guy whose offense is just around all-star guard level. And I really believe that’s being high on him there.

LOL, PLEASE show me the rest of the all-star guards that are around this level. "Just around all-star guard level" is comical.

But hey, coming from the axe to grind guy that said this outrageous thing:

Giannis scoring does not come in a vacuum. Its not that additive to a team because he skill set stinks and he isnt versatile.

I can't say I'm much surprised.

HyPeReFfIcIeNt 30 pOiNtS pEr GaMe Is NoT aDdItIvE cUz He DoEsN't ShOoT 3s U gUys

I literally knew you would just straw man as soon as I saw your reply. So emotional. But I’ll answer the question anyway.

Kenba Walker level offensively. But that’s probably being too high on him because Kemba commands some pretty serious attention off screens on and off ball. But definitely not better than him offensively. And really around his level at the highest.

[First Take]

This is a regular season thread.One would only mention the playoffs if he had a personal agenda against the player in question.
I don't suppose you have one...do you?

We disagree on the goal of the regular season. I have no agenda against Giannis, i really like him as a player and talent. But i believe the goal of the regualar season is to put yourself in the best possible position to win a chanpionship. Oftentimes that will coincide with the #1 seeds, but it doesnt have to be the case.

There are a lot of players throughout history that could have taken on a similar offensive role and resulted in better stats. They could have also had a great team record as well. But they knew what was needed to adapt in the playoffs and used the regular season to prepare.

And,my personal favorite,the only difference between Giannis and Ben Simmons

Take it away Jack



Good day sir.

Bro, you just bodied him in an online forum. I can't take anything that guy says seriously anymore. You crucified his RealGM credibility.

[skones]

I literally knew you would just straw man as soon as I saw your reply. So emotional. But I’ll answer the question anyway.

Kenba Walker level offensively. But that’s probably being too high on him because Kemba commands some pretty serious attention off screens on and off ball. But definitely not better than him offensively. And really around his level at the highest.

One, not sure if you understand what a straw man is. You literally CAN'T give me a list of "just around all-star level guards" with that type of production because they don't exist, and it's precisely why you haven't. You painted yourself into a corner.

Two, "because Kemba commands some pretty serious attention off screens on and off ball" while ignoring that Giannis sucks the entire defense into a crater in the middle of the floor. K.

[HurricaneKid]

He’d be better.

He is honestly like the ultimate representation of how the league has gone with all the box score inflation. Spamming slashes on constant 4 shooter lineups with optimal spacing.

A 30 PPG, 64 TS% guy whose offense is just around all-star guard level. And I really believe that’s being high on him there.

Defensively though, he is impressive.

You mean how the league promotes good offense?

Yes? But even Giannis’ approach came at the expense of players with more skills(Brogdon, Bledsoe, Middleton, even Hill).

Optimally Giannis would’ve been a much better screener, offensive rebounder and passer than he was last year so he could’ve set guys up in more ways than kickouts against teams athletic enough to get those guys out of rhythm.

Every talented player Giannis played with played better offensively in every way without him on the court. All of them. Lopez only played slightly better. The rest of the guys had massive gaps in production.

This is not what happens when you play with an elite offensive player. Volume might lower, efficiency won’t plummet with it. And it definitely won’t happen to every player.

I’ve never seen a supposed elite offensive option, crater everyone around him to play his game.

Milwaukee consistently had a great offense without him in the RS and PS. He carried absolutely nothing on that end, even if it took a huge load to make his impact.

Essentially, the basic(and exploitable)way Milwaukee played with Giannis oversold his impact through the boxscore. Because with his skill set it it was the only way to optimize him.

Ironically if Giannis was more skilled he wouldn’t have had as many points and assists. But even then his assist/TOV ratio was bad anyway. And he is visibly not adept at make passes with the right timing, and anticipating defensive coverages, which Toronto heavily exploited.

Bucks favs wondered for an entire summer why Bud used to same losing offensive strategy for 4 games in a row but it was the only way can play.

This is pretty poor analysis. Toronto effectively played 7 guys in the series. Every one of them was an elite All D calibur defender including 3 of the last 6 DPoYs. Toronto defended Giannis with not only one of the best perimeter defenders ever but also met him at the rim with Gasol who was at least as impactful defensively on him as Kawhi. This left Brook alone who had made 178 3s in the RS who couldn't hit the broad side of the barn and shot 1/7 in the deciding two games. Meanwhile, FVV who had been in one of the all time shooting slumps made 11/14. Having an ice cold BroLo and an anxiety ridden Bledsoe allowed Tor to defend the rim with multiple elite rim protectors.

Is that on Giannis? Not IMO. Sure, he pressed a bit and a lot of his passes didn't hit the mark. But this is about Toronto's defense being special and them putting all their resources into stopping Giannis.

FWIW, ORL put up an ORTG of 92.0 against Tor, Philly put up an ORTG of 98.9 against them, GSW put up an ORTG of 105.8 and Milw put up 106.7. While 106.7 didn't feel great it was far better than anyone else fared.

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[Adam Stern]

Giannis is crazy overrated at this point.Maybe if he had actual go to moves/ISO skills, this level of hype would be warranted.He's a phenomenal athlete with a shiny stat sheet, but I wouldn't consider him a #1 option.Great 2nd option.When the games really count(Playoffs), he's not all that hard to scheme against because his offensive repertoire's limited.I'm only this critical of him because people act like he's the best player in the league.He might have the best stats, but he's not the best player.He's built for the regular season.In the playoffs, I can think of plenty players I'd rather have on my team.

I agree. I think because people want to like Giannis they want him to be the next great thing. So they tend to overrate him and overlook the glaring holes in his game.

The 24 year old league MVP is already the next great thing.There is no "want" here.

Nah, skip the narrative and the hype. This isn't ESPN.
He's a really good you player who had a strong season. He edged out the MVP award because of his team's record.
He also a player who has only been out of the first round once. He has notable holes in his game that were clearly exposed in the playoffs.

That's what he IS.

[skones]

I agree. I think because people want to like Giannis they want him to be the next great thing. So they tend to overrate him and overlook the glaring holes in his game.

The 24 year old league MVP is already the next great thing.There is no "want" here.

Nah, skip the narrative and the hype. This isn't ESPN.
He's a really good you player who had a strong season. He edged out the MVP award because of his team's record.
He also a player who has only been out of the first round once. He has notable holes in his game that were clearly exposed in the playoffs.

That's what he IS.

The only narrative here is the bogus "he was exposed" bull you're pushing. You don't live in reality.

Giannis steamrolled the regular season. Giannis steamrolled the Pistons. Then he steamrolled the 7th best defense in the league in the next round. Then him being "exposed" was a 6 game series in which one game went to 2OT, and 2 more were decided by 6 points or less, with a 4th being decided by 8 points. Yet, people, who clearly don't want to look at context, would have you believe that one team eviscerated the other. That's not what happened in that series.

Unless you're willing to concede the following players Lebron James (wow, couldn't make the playoffs), James Harden (wow, choked in playoffs), Steph Curry (wow, couldn't lead his team to the championship in 2019), Paul George (wow couldn't get out of the first round), Damian Lillard (wow, got swept in the CF), Nikola Jokic (wow, got beat by Portland) yadda yadda yadda, were ALSO exposed.

The fact of the matter is this. ONE team wins the championship each year. That means teams lose because one team plays better. That doesn't equate to anyone being "exposed" and it's comical that someone can dominate a league during an 82 game season only to have that accomplishment "undone" because of a 6 game sample size. It doesn't follow any type of logical thought path.

You wanna know how I can flip the narrative you're pushing? The NBA champions punched a 24 year old NBA MVP in the mouth. They beat him up, and they STILL were on the verge of being down 0-3, and the games STILL came down to the wire, and that NBA MVP? He's now more experienced, and he's STILL getting better. A guy is so good on both ends of the floor that you hold him 13% under his normal FG% and you can STILL barely beat him? Good luck down the line.

[Adam Stern]

The 24 year old league MVP is already the next great thing.There is no "want" here.

Nah, skip the narrative and the hype. This isn't ESPN.
He's a really good you player who had a strong season. He edged out the MVP award because of his team's record.
He also a player who has only been out of the first round once. He has notable holes in his game that were clearly exposed in the playoffs.

That's what he IS.

The only narrative here is the bogus "he was exposed" bull you're pushing. You don't live in reality.

Don't get emotional and please don't make it personal.
It is what it is. Everyone who watched the series saw what happened.

By the way, you can cheer for your guy and still be honest about his limitations.
Denying the obvious just makes you look lost.

[skones]

Nah, skip the narrative and the hype. This isn't ESPN.
He's a really good you player who had a strong season. He edged out the MVP award because of his team's record.
He also a player who has only been out of the first round once. He has notable holes in his game that were clearly exposed in the playoffs.

That's what he IS.

The only narrative here is the bogus "he was exposed" bull you're pushing. You don't live in reality.

Don't get emotional and please don't make it personal.
It is what it is. Everyone who watched the series saw what happened.

By the way, you can cheer for your guy and still be honest about his limitations.
Denying the obvious just makes you look lost.

I'm not being personal, read the rest of my post above which I'd edited. I just don't think you watched the series. It's you who's very much lost, because when Giannis continues to dominate in 2019-2020 as he did in 2018-2019, that whole "exposed" thing doesn't amount to much.

[TreymondGreen]

Please let me know if you disagree and still think Giannis isn't skilled because JuPmErs. If you have are the opinion that his numbers are inflated due area you right. In fact that's kinda of a proven fact for all players isn't it? Steph Curry is still the greatest shooter every. But he wouldn't been able to achieve his records so quickly if not for the massive advantage given to perimeter players. In fact Giannis gets much less help due to era than Harden or Curry. The new rules encourage outside shooting and play. Drawing a foul as a jump shooter is sickeningly easy. That creates free space and makes defending them hard without fouling damn near impossible. For Giannis defenses already sage away due to his lack of a jumper. Which is kinda of a bad idea if given the space to attack he is almost more dangerous. When able to build a head of steam without getting checked it gives him some many options. He can just bulldoze his way or change direction lighting face. Use his dreaded eurostep (travel for those who don't know the rules) more effectively than anyone perhaps every. Well his ridiculous stride is important it just turns from perhaps best in league to best ever. Ok that's my opinion so getting of track. But his ability to use the euro so effectively and in different ways is crazy. Euro through a entire defense early in clock for easy jam. Euro into a floating double clutch in which he attracts three defenders attention. Then next time when the defense bites one his euro he flings a mid air bullet to the open man. Passing another skill he at least good at. Well there's room for improvement here he has some of the most impressive passes I have ever seen. The falling out of bounds behind the head to open shooter comes to mind. His accuarcy is my gripe with his passing. See I even know he isn't perfect. But his ability to bait the defense when and react quickly make him a good passer.
Finally those saying Toronto exposed him want that to be true. I am sorry it isnt. What we see wasn't a superstar getting exposed but a young man who wasn't ready for the moment. While it wasn't even close to being his fault he deserves a good share off it. Toronto got into his head and rattled him. Those saying Leonard shut him down didn't watch. First Leonard became his primary defender. So first they put one of the best perimeter defenders EVER one him. A guy credited with slowing down a top 3 all time player in the finals. Then they basically played something lack a 3 man zone of help defenders. Gasol in the middle another Dpoy. Although not at his physical prime was still one of the best post defenders in the league. Add that to his experience captaining a team who was always a top defensive team. Then on the other help defender was the poor man's Giannis himself in Pascal. A player who like Giannis was a explosive help defender with a natural shot blocking ability. Finally we have Ibaka who wasn't ever consider a great defender. Wait that's right he was also a widely known defense stalwart. Also out of his prime his ability to play Garnett style d was the final piece. A guy who throws that elbow in your ribs talks trash. A physical defender who could metaphorically kick Giannis when he was down. It along with a team wide shooting slump lead to a game 3 loss that shattered his usual steady quiet confidence. It's apperant after the fact because he becomes more hesitant than he's been in two years. The attention he received should of lead to a lot of open shooters. Well it did the shooting woes of the whole team made him hesitate passing. He wanted to win so bad he began thinking instead of playing. So I guess he isn't a top player. He shrunk under the pressure and no all time great has done that in the playoffs before. As soon as they reached the playoffs they won every game while carrying the team when needed. Oh wait that's right almost every great had to get beat sometimes a few times before finally breaking through. Even teams with not only a star widely consider top 3 of all time in his peak. But two other sure fire HOF lost and crumbled before winning. Last point Gisnnis isn't even to his basketball prime yet. So before labeling him as being exposed let's give him a fair shot at least. How times did LeBron fail before he finally got there. Hell Giannis first decent team not to mention first season under a real coach. Hell he went from Drew to Kidd. Two guys who are both not even college level coaches imo. In fact those who say well at least Kidd help Giannis development didn't watch games. If anything he improved despite Kidd's coaching. His decision to ban Giannis from shooting threes did lasting damage in many fans minds. So let's see how Giannis does with his first real coach of his nba career. Thankful we great coach this time but honestly even a average coach would've got us a 4th seed because of Giannis.

Wow?

[RRyder823]

Nah, skip the narrative and the hype. This isn't ESPN.
He's a really good you player who had a strong season. He edged out the MVP award because of his team's record.
He also a player who has only been out of the first round once. He has notable holes in his game that were clearly exposed in the playoffs.

That's what he IS.

The only narrative here is the bogus "he was exposed" bull you're pushing. You don't live in reality.

Don't get emotional and please don't make it personal.
It is what it is. Everyone who watched the series saw what happened.

By the way, you can cheer for your guy and still be honest about his limitations.
Denying the obvious just makes you look lost.

Interesting phrase to use when its extremely easy to flip it back on you

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