The 2019-2020 Zion Williamson thread

eminence · Post #81 » by **eminence** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:46 pm

Yeah... y'all crazy, I like Zion, one of the top prospects in the league (I'd have Luka/JJJ on a similar level) and think he'll be an out and out good player his rookie season, but top 10-15 is nuts.

Funcrusher · Post #82 » by **Funcrusher** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:56 pm

eminence wrote:Yeah... y'all crazy, I like Zion, one of the top prospects in the league (I'd have Luka/JJJ on a similar level) and think he'll be an out and out good player his rookie season, but top 10-15 is nuts.

it's like two guys in this thread who are saying this. Everyone else is firmly rooted in reality.

Jim Naismith · Post #83 » by **Jim Naismith** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:03 pm

clyde21 wrote:i think he'll be considered a top 10 guy by the end of his rookie year.

Good chance, though I have him around #15, which is an average all-star, or average best player on a team.

Remember, ESPN ranked these players #11–#20

Kyrie
Westbrook
CJ McCollum
Gobert
Simmons
Luka
Kemba
KAT
Beal
Mitchell

eminence · Post #84 » by **eminence** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:05 pm

Funcrusher wrote:
eminence wrote:Yeah... y'all crazy, I like Zion, one of the top prospects in the league (I'd have Luka/JJJ on a similar level) and think he'll be an out and out good player his rookie season, but top 10-15 is nuts.

it's like two guys in this thread who are saying this. Everyone else is firmly rooted in reality.

Oh yeah, just in response to the couple of posts in a short time, I recognize most don't have expectations that high.

clyde21 · Post #85 » by **clyde21** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:57 pm

eminence wrote:
Funcrusher wrote:
eminence wrote:Yeah... y'all crazy, I like Zion, one of the top prospects in the league (I'd have Luka/JJJ on a similar level) and think he'll be an out and out good player his rookie season, but top 10-15 is nuts.

it's like two guys in this thread who are saying this. Everyone else is firmly rooted in reality.

Oh yeah, just in response to the couple of posts in a short time, I recognize most don't have expectations that high.

KD
Steph
LeBron
Kawhi
Giannis
Davis
Harden
Embiid
Jokic

are for sure better, but I don't see why he can't be better than anyone else in the league by end of the year, you can make an argument for Paul George or KAT but I think that's pretty much it

I can easily see from 10th best to 15th best, don't think that's crazy at all.

70sFan · Post #86 » by **70sFan** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:07 pm

clyde21 wrote:
eminence wrote:
Funcrusher wrote:it's like two guys in this thread who are saying this. Everyone else is firmly rooted in reality.

Oh yeah, just in response to the couple of posts in a short time, I recognize most don't have expectations that high.

KD
Steph
LeBron
Kawhi
Giannis
Davis
Harden
Embiid
Jokic

are for sure better, but I don't see why he can't be better than anyone else in the league by end of the year, you can make an argument for Paul George or KAT but I think that's pretty much it

I can easily see from 10th best to 15th best, don't think that's crazy at all.

Lillard
Westbrook
George
Green
Gobert
Towns

I mean, I can't see rookie Zion being better than Gobert. How many teenagers in NBA history were better than peak Rudy?

Jim Naismith · Post #87 » by **Jim Naismith** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:09 pm

clyde21 wrote:
eminence wrote:
Funcrusher wrote:it's like two guys in this thread who are saying this. Everyone else is firmly rooted in reality.

Oh yeah, just in response to the couple of posts in a short time, I recognize most don't have expectations that high.

KD
Steph
LeBron
Kawhi
Giannis
Davis
Harden
Embiid
Jokic

are for sure better, but I don't see why he can't be better than anyone else in the league by end of the year, you can make an argument for Paul George or KAT but I think that's pretty much it

I can easily see from 10th best to 15th best, don't think that's crazy at all.

If you think Zion would be the median player among the ones below, then he's top-15:

Kyrie
Westbrook
CJ McCollum
Gobert
Simmons
Luka
Kemba
KAT
Beal
Mitchell

clyde21 · Post #88 » by **clyde21** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:22 pm

70sFan wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
eminence wrote:
Oh yeah, just in response to the couple of posts in a short time, I recognize most don't have expectations that high.

KD
Steph
LeBron
Kawhi
Giannis
Davis
Harden
Embiid
Jokic

are for sure better, but I don't see why he can't be better than anyone else in the league by end of the year, you can make an argument for Paul George or KAT but I think that's pretty much it

I can easily see from 10th best to 15th best, don't think that's crazy at all.

Lillard
Westbrook
George
Green
Gobert
Towns

I mean, I can't see rookie Zion being better than Gobert. How many teenagers in NBA history were better than peak Rudy?

okay, let's say I don't argue with you on those (even though he's for sure better than Green/Russ at this point)...then if you include those players he's 16th...

so again i don't think it's a crazy notion at all, we're talking about the best prospect since LeBron here, not just any rook.

Funcrusher · Post #89 » by **Funcrusher** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:27 pm

LeBron wasn't even a top 50 player in his rookie season

Jim Naismith · Post #90 » by **Jim Naismith** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:30 pm

Funcrusher wrote::lol: LeBron wasn't even a top 50 player in his rookie season

Zion went to college.

Funcrusher · Post #91 » by **Funcrusher** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:35 pm

Jim Naismith wrote:
Funcrusher wrote::lol: LeBron wasn't even a top 50 player in his rookie season

Zion went to college.

ok

Jim Naismith · Post #92 » by **Jim Naismith** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:38 pm

Funcrusher wrote:
Jim Naismith wrote:
Funcrusher wrote::lol: LeBron wasn't even a top 50 player in his rookie season

Zion went to college.

ok

So the age-appropriate comp to Zion's rookie year would be LeBron's 2nd year in the league at age 20, when he averaged 27/7/7 and was an all-star.

OK?

eminence · Post #93 » by **eminence** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:05 pm

Jim Naismith wrote:
Funcrusher wrote:
Jim Naismith wrote:
Zion went to college.

ok

So the age-appropriate comp to Zion's rookie year would be LeBron's 2nd year in the league at age 20, when he averaged 27/7/7 and was an all-star.

OK?

Just one or two bold assumptions made here:

A season at Duke = A season in the league

Zion = LeBron

From there I'm sure you can figure out why most aren't so on board.

toodles23 · Post #94 » by **toodles23** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:06 pm

Jim Naismith wrote:
Funcrusher wrote:
Jim Naismith wrote:
Zion went to college.

ok

So the age-appropriate comp to Zion's rookie year would be LeBron's 2nd year in the league at age 20, when he averaged 27/7/7 and was an all-star.

OK?

Zion just turned 19 in July.

And he’s not going to be a top 15 player as a rookie. That would be unprecedented for a teenager.

clyde21 · Post #95 » by **clyde21** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:10 pm

eminence wrote:
Jim Naismith wrote:
Funcrusher wrote:ok

So the age-appropriate comp to Zion's rookie year would be LeBron's 2nd year in the league at age 20, when he averaged 27/7/7 and was an all-star.

OK?

Just one or two bold assumptions made here:

A season at Duke = A season in the league

Zion = LeBron

From there I'm sure you can figure out why most aren't so on board.

LeBron was probably a top 5 player in his 2nd season

no one is saying Zion is going to be top-5, but top 15 or borderline top 10 by the end of this upcoming season is not a crazy idea at all...

eminence · Post #96 » by **eminence** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:54 pm

70sFan wrote:How many teenagers in NBA history were better than peak Rudy?

The answer for anybody wondering is nobody. It has never happened, and in fact nobody has ever been particularly close. The common box score all in ones, '19 Gobert vs a few top teenagers:

'19 Gobert 24.6 PER, .268 WS/48, 7.0 BPM

'19 Luka 19.6 PER, .101 WS/48, 4.1 BPM
'04 LeBron 18.3 PER, .078 WS/48, 1.9 BPM
'99 McGrady 20.6 PER, .143 WS/48, 4.0 BPM (only 18 mpg)
'96 KG 15.8 PER, .092 WS/48, 1.7 BPM
'05 Dwight 17.2 PER, .131 WS/48, 1.0 BPM
'18 Tatum 15.3 PER, .139 WS/48, 1.0 BPM

That is the complete list of teenagers with a BPM over 1 in a mpg/leaderboard qualifying season per BBref.

clyde21 · Post #97 » by **clyde21** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:33 pm

eminence wrote:
70sFan wrote:How many teenagers in NBA history were better than peak Rudy?

The answer for anybody wondering is nobody. It has never happened, and in fact nobody has ever been particularly close. The common box score all in ones, '19 Gobert vs a few top teenagers:

'19 Gobert 24.6 PER, .268 WS/48, 7.0 BPM

'19 Luka 19.6 PER, .101 WS/48, 4.1 BPM
'04 LeBron 18.3 PER, .078 WS/48, 1.9 BPM
'99 McGrady 20.6 PER, .143 WS/48, 4.0 BPM (only 18 mpg)
'96 KG 15.8 PER, .092 WS/48, 1.7 BPM
'05 Dwight 17.2 PER, .131 WS/48, 1.0 BPM
'18 Tatum 15.3 PER, .139 WS/48, 1.0 BPM

That is the complete list of teenagers with a BPM over 1 in a mpg/leaderboard qualifying season per BBref.

bolded came into the league straight from HS

1 year of Duke doesn't equal 1 year in the NBA, obviously, but it's not exactly the same either. i'd compare their 2nd years before their rookies years in this case.

BIGJ1ER · Post #98 » by **BIGJ1ER** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:03 pm

Dr Spaceman wrote:I’m gonna throw out a rather crazy offensive comparison: big 3 Dwayne Wade.

We’ll start with the obvious: he doesn’t have Wade’s mid range game and he isn’t a half court ball handler.

That said, the way the dude moves off ball and sort of glides through the lane evading multiple bodies and knocking big men out of the way with those acrobatic finishes is absolutely Wade-esque. His transition handling and the way he just imposes his will on the game through sheer physical force remind me so much of Wade and he’s already got a comparable arsenal of up fakes, hook shots, and turnarounds from about 8 feet in as Wade. His power and speed especially at his size is unprecedented and if he leans out a bit I could see him matching Wade’s motor/activity level, just making plays all over the floor.

I actually had that thought the other day, glad you posted this.

Wouldn't you say big 3 Dwayne wade had lost a big chunk of his explosiveness already though? Or are you using that comparison due to the offball play and because his younger self was on ball a lot more and operated in the pnr a lot so you don't like that playstyle comparison to zion?

The High Cyde · Post #99 » by **The High Cyde** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:03 pm

Zion out for the preseason finale due to knee soreness per ESPN.

He needs to lose some weight, make it easier on his whole body but especially his knees on down.

But maybe it's just the Pels giving him the night off?

Dr Spaceman · Post #100 » by **Dr Spaceman** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:14 pm

BIGJ1ER wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:I’m gonna throw out a rather crazy offensive comparison: big 3 Dwayne Wade.

We’ll start with the obvious: he doesn’t have Wade’s mid range game and he isn’t a half court ball handler.

That said, the way the dude moves off ball and sort of glides through the lane evading multiple bodies and knocking big men out of the way with those acrobatic finishes is absolutely Wade-esque. His transition handling and the way he just imposes his will on the game through sheer physical force remind me so much of Wade and he’s already got a comparable arsenal of up fakes, hook shots, and turnarounds from about 8 feet in as Wade. His power and speed especially at his size is unprecedented and if he leans out a bit I could see him matching Wade’s motor/activity level, just making plays all over the floor.

I actually had that thought the other day, glad you posted this.

Wouldn't you say big 3 Dwayne wade had lost a big chunk of his explosiveness already though? Or are you using that comparison due to the offball play and because his younger self was on ball a lot more and operated in the pnr a lot so you don't like that playstyle comparison to zion?

Mostly because of the play style. After LeBron came on board Wade worked a lot more out of curls where he could catch and attack off the dribble and the like. I see a lot of Zion coming around screens to build up a head of steam going to the basket using a few of the same actions Miami used to run.

The more diminished Wade I think is a good comp for Zion athletically. Zion is just never going to have the straight line acceleration young Wade did. But his patience, strength, craft and balance remind me a lot of how Wade used to score around the basket after he lost a little bit of a step.