How many Duncan's seasons would you pick over peak Kawhi?

[HBK_Kliq_33]

If you're a goat level player and you got your sidekick out performing you damn near every series, I'm going to use the term carry because I don't respect your offense.

Then you act like a fool who knows nothing about basketball. Don't destroy this thread like you did with many others.

Kobe fans can use the same silly excuse as you do when Pau Gasol out performed Kobe in big games "he had the defensive attention" it still doesn't make them or you any less full of ****.

[clyde21]

i would take most Duncan prime years over Kawhis

[HBK_Kliq_33]

So in this thread, 70sfan told red wine basically this: "Duncan is not one of the greatest offensive players ever but his presence alone still gets the credit for his hall of fame teammate Manu out performing him"

What kind of disaster of a response was that? Blind homer talk if you ask me but you decide.

[liamliam1234]

70sFan is certainly not the poster here who is blindly spewing “disaster” responses to support a player they like.

[cecilthesheep]

If you're a goat level player and you got your sidekick out performing you damn near every series, I'm going to use the term carry because I don't respect your offense.

Then you act like a fool who knows nothing about basketball. Don't destroy this thread like you did with many others.

Kobe fans can use the same silly excuse as you do when Pau Gasol out performed Kobe in big games "he had the defensive attention" it still doesn't make them or you any less full of ****.

whoa, hold on, wait up. I would like to hear your case for "Pau > Kobe"

[HBK_Kliq_33]

70sFan is certainly not the poster here who is blindly spewing “disaster” responses to support a player they like.

Ginobli was the best offensive player in the regular season and playoffs, an all nba guy in his prime. Why does Duncan get the credit for him playing like that? What else is he going to try giving Duncan's "offensive presence" for? The Nuggets and Sonics 2005 series? The jazz and cavs 2007 series that Manu all outplayed Duncan on offense in? Does Duncan get the credit in 2011 when he himself was a glorified role player and Manu was by far the best player and they were #2 ranked as well? Duncan's offensive presence is that impactful but he himself is having a massive efficiency drop in 2005 finals? I don't buy that at all. Duncan is just a flawed offensive player compared to Kawhi. Not only that but wing players naturally have more of an impact on offense anyway.

[bledredwine]

Kawhi is an awesome regular season player, but he kind of "Lebron's" the regular season- coasts. Playoff Kawhi is a beast though.

[bledredwine]

This thread reminds me,

We really need to have an ATG thread on Manu.

Aside from the fact that I have dare I say a love for the trio of Tim, Manu and Parker and the good memories of Spurs basketball they've given, I just respect the hell out of Manu taking a bench role.

I wonder where his career would have led had he been a star on another prominent team.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Then you act like a fool who knows nothing about basketball. Don't destroy this thread like you did with many others.

Kobe fans can use the same silly excuse as you do when Pau Gasol out performed Kobe in big games "he had the defensive attention" it still doesn't make them or you any less full of ****.

whoa, hold on, wait up. I would like to hear your case for "Pau > Kobe"

Kobe was just a decent defender during those years and Pau was a great defender and the defensive anchor, the defense gap is huge advantage for Pau. Than when you look at the offense for 2010 finals:

GmSc for Pau Gasol: 18.6
GmSC for Kobe Bryant: 18.7

TS For Pau Gasol: 55%
TS for Kobe Bryant: 52%

Offensive rating for Pau Gasol: 122
Offensive rating for Kobe Bryant: 108

FG for Pau Gasol: 47%
FG for Kobe Bryant: 40%

FTA for Pau Gasol: 61
FTA for Kobe Bryant: 60

So Kobe is still the better volume scorer but everything else pretty much went to Gasol. Kobe at least has volume over Pau but a lot of the times Duncan doesn't even have volume over Manu. The main difference is Duncan makes it up with his defense and Kobe does not. Pau was easily superior defender over Kobe and beats him in a lot of offensive stats like the one i just named, minutes played were basically the same, overall Pau wins.

Elimination games are also important and that game 7 Pau outplayed Kobe big time, especially in the 4th quarter. I don't see Siakam or Lowry outplaying Kawhi in game 7 2nd round?

Artest was locking down Pierce, KG was a shell of his former self. Than you got Bynum\Odom as role players. All Kobe had to do is play offense and he couldn't even do that great. That team was stacked compared to Celtics and completely overrated performance by Kobe.

Watch on YouTube

[HBK_Kliq_33]

This thread reminds me,

We really need to have an ATG thread on Manu.

Aside from the fact that I have dare I say a love for the trio of Tim, Manu and Parker and the good memories of Spurs basketball they've given, I just respect the hell out of Manu taking a bench role.

I wonder where his career would have led had he been a star on another prominent team.

Or if he was just drafted to a terrible team like 2018-19 suns and had to play 35-40 minutes per game, I think he would be 25\5\5 guy easily. I see Manu by himself as about the same level as Pau Gasol who took those memphis teams to 50 wins. Manu would be better as a franchise player than somebody like Draymond by far, Manu can thrive with bench players. Draymond needs stars around him on offense to be successful and would be toast if he ever was the best player on a team.

[homecourtloss]

Exactly, Kawhi won with new teammates and a rookie coach. Duncan was able to build chemistry with Pop and the big three for years.

Duncan's offense in the playoffs outside of 2002/03 is also very questionable for a player his level. 2005 playoffs Duncan was offensively out performed by Manu every series besides Suns. 2007 finals he was able to sweep the worst finals team in NBA history but still had a far below average offensive showing.

2003 is the only playoff run I could see somebody bringing up but even that? You faced Mavs without Dirk for 90% of that series and a Lakers team with chemistry imploding so badly that Phil Jackson wrote a book about it.

Ok, so how many of Duncan’s seasons would you pick over peak Kawhi?

2002 or 2003 is something you could argue but I don't think Duncan was ever a better offensive player than 2017 or 2019 Kawhi. Overall two way play, the argument gets closer but I think Kawhi is a more versitale defender and there's something to be said about that.

Duncan has better defense, Kawhi has better offense.

I would value the unstoppable 1 on 1 scorer with lockdown man defense and better ability to close games (Kawhi). I am higher on Kawhi than some though.

So...maybe 1, probably none?

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Ok, so how many of Duncan’s seasons would you pick over peak Kawhi?

2002 or 2003 is something you could argue but I don't think Duncan was ever a better offensive player than 2017 or 2019 Kawhi. Overall two way play, the argument gets closer but I think Kawhi is a more versitale defender and there's something to be said about that.

Duncan has better defense, Kawhi has better offense.

I would value the unstoppable 1 on 1 scorer with lockdown man defense and better ability to close games (Kawhi). I am higher on Kawhi than some though.

So...maybe 1, probably none?

Better playoff run: None
Better combined reg season & playoffs: 03 only

Leonard is only 28 years old and gets better every year, so we'll have to wait and see if he ever passes 03 Duncan for combined reg season and playoff run.

[clyde21]

Kawhi is an awesome regular season player, but he kind of "Lebron's" the regular season- coasts. Playoff Kawhi is a beast though.

maybe he beasts in the POs because he 'coasts' in the RS? what happens when he's put in a situation where he can't coast in the RS?

[inDe_eD]

Kawhi is an awesome regular season player, but he kind of "Lebron's" the regular season- coasts. Playoff Kawhi is a beast though.

maybe he beasts in the POs because he 'coasts' in the RS? what happens when he's put in a situation where he can't coast in the RS?

Every single player has to pick their spots in the regular season. Very few of them turn it up in the playoffs though.

[trex_8063]

If you're a goat level player and you got your sidekick out performing you damn near every series, I'm going to use the term carry because I don't respect your offense.

Then you act like a fool who knows nothing about basketball. Don't destroy this thread like you did with many others.

Kobe fans can use the same silly excuse as you do when Pau Gasol out performed Kobe in big games "he had the defensive attention" it still doesn't make them or you any less full of ****.

Enough. Just disengage, and check your PM's later.

[clyde21]

Kawhi is an awesome regular season player, but he kind of "Lebron's" the regular season- coasts. Playoff Kawhi is a beast though.

maybe he beasts in the POs because he 'coasts' in the RS? what happens when he's put in a situation where he can't coast in the RS?

Every single player has to pick their spots in the regular season. Very few of them turn it up in the playoffs though.

what? which stars coast in the RS besides LeBron the last couple of years? who else gets the benefit of sitting out 22 games in a season just for load management?

[HBK_Kliq_33]

maybe he beasts in the POs because he 'coasts' in the RS? what happens when he's put in a situation where he can't coast in the RS?

Every single player has to pick their spots in the regular season. Very few of them turn it up in the playoffs though.

what? which stars coast in the RS besides LeBron the last couple of years? who else gets the benefit of sitting out 22 games in a season just for load management?

Lowry is the 2nd best player and he only played 5 more games than Leonard, they both were pretty much on load management. So what's the big deal?

Also, 2002 shaq and 2005 Tim Duncan played around the same total games reg and postseason as 2019 Leonard. 1 year only and he made up for it with a lengthy playoff run. So are we going to take away 2002 Shaq and 2005 Tim Duncan now too? If Kawhi was on load management every year of his career, you may have a point. One year that still combined for a total of 84 games is not a big deal. I don't see anybody ever getting on 2002 Shaq for it.

[inDe_eD]

maybe he beasts in the POs because he 'coasts' in the RS? what happens when he's put in a situation where he can't coast in the RS?

Every single player has to pick their spots in the regular season. Very few of them turn it up in the playoffs though.

what? which stars coast in the RS besides LeBron the last couple of years? who else gets the benefit of sitting out 22 games in a season just for load management?

I didn't say sit out, I said "pick their spots". Draymond plays out of shape, Harden doesn't play defense, the warriors punted most first-halves of regular season games (and then turned it on in the 3rd quarter). Giannis was pretty special last year, but even he had his minutes limited.

I don't get why sitting out a regular season game (when returning from an overuse injury) is more offensive than any other form of "not giving it your all".

[AdagioPace]

Every single player has to pick their spots in the regular season. Very few of them turn it up in the playoffs though.

what? which stars coast in the RS besides LeBron the last couple of years? who else gets the benefit of sitting out 22 games in a season just for load management?

Lowry is the 2nd best player and he only played 5 more games than Leonard, they both were pretty much on load management. So what's the big deal?

Also, 2002 shaq and 2005 Tim Duncan played around the same total games reg and postseason as 2019 Leonard. 1 year only and he made up for it with a lengthy playoff run. So are we going to take away 2002 Shaq and 2005 Tim Duncan now too? If Kawhi was on load management every year of his career, you may have a point. One year that still combined for a total of 84 games is not a big deal. I don't see anybody ever getting on 2002 Shaq for it.

2005 was an exception for him...
the following two seasons Duncan went back to circa 2780 RS minutes (which is +300 minutes above Kawhi's most resilient RS season in 2017)

In other terms, Kawhi's best RS is comparable to 2010 Duncan (33 y.o) as far as the "ability to stay on the floor" is concerned.
In terms of "level of playing" I would take 01'-'07 Duncan above peak Kawhi. Way better RS floor raiser and better PS performer too*.
'99, '00, '08 are debatable.

*If we made a "top 10 best playoffs series" ranking between Kawhi and Duncan, it would be a bloodbath, with all due respect to a great scorer like Leonard....

[HBK_Kliq_33]

what? which stars coast in the RS besides LeBron the last couple of years? who else gets the benefit of sitting out 22 games in a season just for load management?

Lowry is the 2nd best player and he only played 5 more games than Leonard, they both were pretty much on load management. So what's the big deal?

Also, 2002 shaq and 2005 Tim Duncan played around the same total games reg and postseason as 2019 Leonard. 1 year only and he made up for it with a lengthy playoff run. So are we going to take away 2002 Shaq and 2005 Tim Duncan now too? If Kawhi was on load management every year of his career, you may have a point. One year that still combined for a total of 84 games is not a big deal. I don't see anybody ever getting on 2002 Shaq for it.

2005 was an exception for him...
the following two seasons Duncan went back to circa 2780 RS minutes (which is +300 minutes above Kawhi's most resilient RS season in 2017)

In other terms, Kawhi's best RS is comparable to 2010 Duncan (33 y.o) as far as the "ability to stay on the floor" is concerned.
In terms of "level of playing" I would take 01'-'07 Duncan above peak Kawhi. Way better RS floor raiser and better PS performer too*.
'99, '00, '08 are debatable.

*If we made a "top 10 best playoffs series" ranking between Kawhi and Duncan, it would be a bloodbath, with all due respect to a great scorer like Leonard....

Duncan played 34 minutes a game those years and Kawhi played 33 minutes a game in 2017 and 2016. Only difference is Kawhi sat out about 6-8 games. Is that significant? Well Harden won MVP playing 72 games so the MVP voters don't seem to think that's significant.

Compare best playoff series from a retired player to a player who has only played up until 27 years old is not fair at all. I don't think Duncan has ever had a series like Leonard's 2nd round vs 76ers or a playoff run like 2019 Leonard though.

1999 - Clear cut best team with a superstar on his team that is nearly as good as he is. In a lockout season as well.

2000-2002 - injured or team not good enough

2003 - Finally a year comparable to 2019 playoff Leonard. Duncan had shortcuts here though, playing Dallas without Dirk for 90% of the series? That's a cakewalk! And than the 1 man team in the finals. I would say beating 2003 Lakers is about equal to beating 2019 warriors. Giannis didn't get injured like Dirk though? 76ers are a much better and more stacked team than Nets. Leonard just had much tougher challenges here

04 - Shut down by Karl Malone

05 - Shut down by Rasheed but this time Manu saves him

06 - Played great but lost to a 1 man team despite having home court advantage

2007 - Mavs were upset and Duncan gets an easy path to the finals. Plays terrible in the finals offensively and is 3rd best offensive player, team sweeps anyway

2008 - Gasol locks him up and his team only wins 1 game vs Lakers

Than the glorified role player years start to begin...