So Miami really just rebuilt their squad in 1 offseason without assets and over the cap?

[Texas Chuck]

You can't just say, "Oh, he'd do that well anywhere." No, he wouldn't.

yeah as you say, the player deserves the bulk of the credit, but we can't ignore the importance of the team identifying a guy they think can fill a role and putting him in position to succeed and the work of the development staff.

[greg4012]

Brandon Jennings averaged 25/4/5 in his first 11 NBA games. He was a future star.

Watch the games

[dc]

Heat are an extremely well run organization with a great culture, and you can see how good they are developing guys from out of nowhere like Whiteside, Richardson and now perhaps Nunn.

But man, it kind of pains me to see how they didn't just blow it all up right after Lebron left. Yeah, they probably didn't want to tank it in Wade's last few years and nobody knew about Bosh's health situation at the time, but it seems they wasted a lot of time treadmilling it.

If they had just tanked it a little bit and not committed some of those long terms deals that they did, imagine where they'd be now with some more assets to play with.

[lakerz12]

Brandon Jennings averaged 25/4/5 in his first 11 NBA games. He was a future star.

Watch the games

If you watched Brandon Jennings' games (which I did) and saw him put up 55 points in his 7th NBA game, then you would think he was a future All-Star.

So what is your point?

My point is valid: Projecting a player to be a star after 4 games is foolish.

[BBallFreak]

Wasn't it a 5 year rebuild?

Nah I like this OP's thinking. That way I can tell myself it hasn't been a 8 year process in Dallas since breaking up the title team but really a turbo rebuild of drafting Luka and trading for KP. Boom insta rebuld. All those years of suck basketball with no young players or high draft picks to show for it never happened. We went straight from prime Dirk to Luka.


Not that I'm discounting the job Riley and co did this summer. Riley is clearly good at his job. But you are dead on that isn't overnight from the Heatles.

That's very true. It certainly wasn't an overnight process. Of course, the team tried to rebuild on the fly with Wade and Bosh, and then trading for Draigc, but blood clots and a contract dispute with Wade left the team with nothing but Dragic. They developed Whiteside, but his attitude ended his tenure here. And Riley foolishly invested into a team that overachieved, believing they were more than just a group of mercenaries looking for the next contract.

Now, it appears, he's shaken off those mistakes and gotten back to a more traditional Riley approach...

[LakersSoul]

And if Trae Young hadn’t got injured they would probably be 2-3 instead of 4-1 right now. They have one “good win” against the Bucks. Let’s see them play some more games before we start calling these guys stars.

And if my mother had 6 tits she would be a pig.

That’s not a nice thing to say.

[bran muffin]

The current Heat team is built around a 30-yr old Jimmy Butler.

They won't have their 2021 and 2023 first round picks. They won't have their own 2nd round pick until the year 2027(!). Their roster is still riddled with bad contracts for the next 2 years (Olynyk, Waiters, Johnson). They also had to stretch-waive Ryan Anderson, which created $5M dead cap space for each of the next 3 years. They won't have cap room to sign any decent free agent after this season.

Over the years, Pat Riley has made some really boneheaded decisions with cap management and free agency. He has done much better with the draft, but it's still to early to be declaring Nunn and Herro as future stars. All in all, I think people are overrating the Heat's rebuild. They're in a decent position, but they're still paying for the tons of mistakes they made along the way.

[greg4012]

But man, it kind of pains me to see how they didn't just blow it all up right after Lebron left. Yeah, they probably didn't want to tank it in Wade's last few years and nobody knew about Bosh's health situation at the time, but it seems they wasted a lot of time treadmilling it.

From a stone cold objective perspective, I agree. But there were 3 factors at play that couldn't allow for that to happen:

1) Reverence to Dwyane Wade. We couldn't just blow it up while he was still in prime years (at the very end of it, but no one wants to admit that at the time).

2) Belief in Wade and Bosh. We had 2 championship caliber all-stars to build around. We realistically knew it wasn't enough to be top tier, but still good to be competitive (Bosh health was unforeseen). We wanted to believe we could just add 1-2 pieces and get back to it (see point #3)

3) Riley's ego. He got slighted by LeBron and wanted to prove him wrong and best him.

[AbC?]

They'll be interesting in 2021. Butler/Winslow/Herro/Bam with nearly 2 max slots. All depends on how their young guys progress.

[greg4012]

Brandon Jennings averaged 25/4/5 in his first 11 NBA games. He was a future star.

Watch the games

If you watched Brandon Jennings' games (which I did) and saw him put up 55 points in his 7th NBA game, then you would think he was a future All-Star.

So what is your point?

My point is valid: Projecting a player to be a star after 4 games is foolish.

I'm not projected him to be a star. I'm just declaring that the ways Nunn is scoring, producing and contributing do not seem flukish. Yes, his 3 point % will regress some. But, this is the guy who shot 40% from 3 in college while taking 11 attempts per game. He knows how to shoot.

[lakerz12]

Watch the games

If you watched Brandon Jennings' games (which I did) and saw him put up 55 points in his 7th NBA game, then you would think he was a future All-Star.

So what is your point?

My point is valid: Projecting a player to be a star after 4 games is foolish.

I'm not projected him to be a star. I'm just declaring that the ways Nunn is scoring, producing and contributing do not seem flukish. Yes, his 3 point % will regress some. But, this is the guy who shot 40% from 3 in college while taking 11 attempts per game. He knows how to shoot.

Okay well I was responding to the OP...

Which said, "Miami acquired Butler(bonafide star), Herro(future star) and Nunn(on path to become a star) using 2 decent but not great assets(JRich and 14#)."

I was just making the point that 4 games is too soon to know if someone is a star. Many players have played at a star level for stretches of games.

Your feelings about Nunn don't really have anything to do with what I said. He could turn out to be great. I don't know. I'm just saying 4 games is a really small sample size and we can bring up plenty of guys who had a great start and then fizzled out.

[BBallFreak]

The current Heat team is built around a 30-yr old Jimmy Butler.

If you've watched at all, no they're not.

As someone already pointed out in this thread, Miami uses the next man up approach. Last night, Butler scored 5 points. Miami still won.

They won't have their 2021 and 2023 first round picks. They won't have their own 2nd round pick until the year 2027(!).

First, who cares about the draft picks? Kendrick Nunn wasn't drafted. That's kinda the point. Miami hasn't had a lot of draft picks recently and people have said they've compromised their future. Does it really look like that right now? We heard how not having the '16 and '18 picks were going to bite Miami in the butt. So what did they do? They surrounded those two years with Winslow and Richardson in '15, Adebayo in '17, and Herro in '19. In other words, they're making the most of their opportunities.

Their roster is still riddled with bad contracts for the next 2 years (Olynyk, Waiters, Johnson). They also had to stretch-waive Ryan Anderson, which created $5M dead cap space for each of the next 3 years.

Kelly Olynyk is not a bad a contract.

They won't have cap room to sign any decent free agent after this season.

Which free agents are on the market this year?

Over the years, Pat Riley has made some really boneheaded decisions with cap management and free agency.

More shrewd than not.

He has done much better with the draft, but it's still to early to be declaring Nunn and Herro as future stars. All in all, I think people are overrating the Heat's rebuild. They're in a decent position, but they're still paying for the tons of mistakes they made along the way.

I agree with you here, to a degree. This thread is reactionary. It's too early. But Miami is currently living with two mistakes (Waiters and JJ) and that's really it...

[dc]

From a stone cold objective perspective, I agree. But there were 3 factors at play that couldn't allow for that to happen:

1) Reverence to Dwyane Wade. We couldn't just blow it up while he was still in prime years (at the very end of it, but no one wants to admit that at the time).

2) Belief in Wade and Bosh. We had 2 championship caliber all-stars to build around. We realistically knew it wasn't enough to be top tier, but still good to be competitive (Bosh health was unforeseen). We wanted to believe we could just add 1-2 pieces and get back to it (see point #3)

3) Riley's ego. He got slighted by LeBron and wanted to prove him wrong and best him.

Yeah, but I also think stuff like the Tyler Johnson signing hurt. By then Bosh had already long retired and everyone knew Wade was on his last legs.

It just kind of pains me to see how much further they'd be right now if they had some more talent/assets because I know they're the type of organization that can maximize what they have.

[LakersSoul]

I wouldn’t be surprised if they somehow end up in the mix for AD come this summer.

Okay Frogboi,

Your green is showing.

[Spacely]

The current Heat team is built around a 30-yr old Jimmy Butler.

They won't have their 2021 and 2023 first round picks. They won't have their own 2nd round pick until the year 2027(!). Their roster is still riddled with bad contracts for the next 2 years (Olynyk, Waiters, Johnson). They also had to stretch-waive Ryan Anderson, which created $5M dead cap space for each of the next 3 years. They won't have cap room to sign any decent free agent after this season.

Over the years, Pat Riley has made some really boneheaded decisions with cap management and free agency. He has done much better with the draft, but it's still to early to be declaring Nunn and Herro as future stars. All in all, I think people are overrating the Heat's rebuild. They're in a decent position, but they're still paying for the tons of mistakes they made along the way.

You mentioned Jimmy Butler’s age like it mattered? Okay.

You realize we are going to have space for a max free agent in 2021 right? You clearly hating on the team bringing up random things that we wont have draft picks for specific years yet we are one of the best teams at utilizing their second round picks and undrafted talent? We have already picked up multiple players that needed to come into this system to strive and improve their play and potential such as Whiteside, Haslem, Nunn, Richardson etc. Olynyk is not a bad contract he is very serviceable as a back up stretch big with great playmaking skills and being a crafty scorer. Dion is the only bad contract because he has been injured for two years and never really got a chance to play fully healthy which isn’t fair. JJ is is still serviceable as a versatile defender when he’s back in condition and healthy. Did you even look at the salary or are you just talking out of your butt to say we won’t have an salary space?

[greg4012]

The current Heat team is built around a 30-yr old Jimmy Butler.

They won't have their 2021 and 2023 first round picks. They won't have their own 2nd round pick until the year 2027(!). Their roster is still riddled with bad contracts for the next 2 years (Olynyk, Waiters, Johnson). They also had to stretch-waive Ryan Anderson, which created $5M dead cap space for each of the next 3 years. They won't have cap room to sign any decent free agent after this season.

Over the years, Pat Riley has made some really boneheaded decisions with cap management and free agency. He has done much better with the draft, but it's still to early to be declaring Nunn and Herro as future stars. All in all, I think people are overrating the Heat's rebuild. They're in a decent position, but they're still paying for the tons of mistakes they made along the way.

Correction: the current Heat team is built around promising young prospects that have now been given opportunity to expand their games and produce in larger roles (shipping out Whiteside to give Bam the minutes he deserves and having Dragic come off the bench so that Winslow can flourish as a point guard). And the early returns are that that is exactly what they are doing.

Butler is the star veteran presence that serves to shape the youth and as a bridge to what is to come next.

Winslow is 23 and locked up on a good deal through 2022
Herro is 19 and is on his rookie deal through 2023
Bam is 22 and is on his rookie deal through 2020 and then we will use bird rights to resign him
Nunn is 24 and is on rookie deal through 2020 and then we can resign him as a RFA with a cap hold of like $2M
Derrick Jones Jr is 22 and will likely be re-signed to a reasonable deal this offseason (my bet is it ends up looking like a great deal 1-2 years from now.

The Heat will have significant cap space for 2021 free agency and the above core will be an average age of 24. All of the above guys are extremely promising and improving.

Butler is signed through 2023 and will be 32 years old at the time of 2021 free agency. I hope he still has juice to perform at a high level, but the need will be mitigated some (hopefully) by the ascension of some of the other talents.

Add in a max level talent and another supplemental piece (which the Heat will have space for) and things look pretty damn good to me

[zimpy27]

They'll be interesting in 2021. Butler/Winslow/Herro/Bam with nearly 2 max slots. All depends on how their young guys progress.

They'll only have one max slot.

On books $55m: Herro, Butler, Winslow, Okpala
Cap holds $20m: Nunn, Jones, Bam
Stretched $5m: Anderson
Minimum roster $4m: 4 spots

$84m with a $125m salary cap that could drop depending on China.

They have $41m and a Giannis max is 37.5m. That will be their goal.

Nunn, Herro, Butler, Giannis, Bam
Jones, Winslow, Okpala

[AbC?]

They'll be interesting in 2021. Butler/Winslow/Herro/Bam with nearly 2 max slots. All depends on how their young guys progress.

They'll only have one max slot.

On books $55m: Herro, Butler, Winslow, Okpala
Cap holds $20m: Nunn, Jones, Bam
Stretched $5m: Anderson
Minimum roster $4m: 4 spots

$84m with a $125m salary cap that could drop depending on China.

They have $41m and a Giannis max is 37.5m. That will be their goal.

Nunn, Herro, Butler, Giannis, Bam
Jones, Winslow, Okpala

Oh right, forgot about the cap holds.

[heatwillbeback]

Nunn is the key to it all.

We signed him to a "3" year deal the last day of last season. So pretty much 2 years and a day. And that day matters because he is now a RFA the 2021 offseason (the big one) and the Heat have his bird rights. Bam will also be a RFA that offseason. It was honestly a move that thought ahead years and was very savvy.

So Dion/JJ/Kelly expire that offseason. Heat have Jimmy, Herro, Justise under contract. Bam and Nunn are RFA's who we could go over the cap to resign. And cap space (with pieces to attract players in that cap space). Its a good spot to be in.

[ForeverTFC]

They benefit from being in Miami; only reason a team with that cap sheet and talent at the time gets a player like Butler. But the Knicks are a clear example that just having a good market isn't enough. They have a stable program and management group that allows them to pull something like this off.

Still early but things are looking good there. Between Miami, Toronto, Pacers, Philly and Boston, there is a nice group of young players growing together in the east. Milwaukee screwed up letting Brogdan go.