2019-20 NBA Season Discussion

[Dr Spaceman]

I could very well be overreacting to a bad stretch of games from Kawhi but I'm not sure his body is going to hold up this season even with load management. He does not look right physically.

In hindsight kinda crazy he only signed a 2 year deal with LAC.

And now he's out for the second consecutive game. Don't want to speculate too much but the fact that he's looking gimpy despite not suffering an acute injury in a game and sitting out on a non b2b just 9 games in can't be a good sign.

Luckily for the Clippers PG13 is still really **** good.

George has like 80 points in 40 minutes. I expected him to look like crap for at least a month but he looks like November 2015 Steph Curry out there.

Kawhi on the other hand looks way worse than he did last season. It is troubling for sure. At this point I don’t know if you can expect him to have a long career.

[clyde21]

In hindsight kinda crazy he only signed a 2 year deal with LAC.

And now he's out for the second consecutive game. Don't want to speculate too much but the fact that he's looking gimpy despite not suffering an acute injury in a game and sitting out on a non b2b just 9 games in can't be a good sign.

Luckily for the Clippers PG13 is still really **** good.

George has like 80 points in 40 minutes. I expected him to look like crap for at least a month but he looks like November 2015 Steph Curry out there.

Kawhi on the other hand looks way worse than he did last season. It is troubling for sure. At this point I don’t know if you can expect him to have a long career.

but according to some people Kawhi is the best all around player of all time

[ardee]

My ranking of top 10 players of the decade. I may start a poll series closer to the end of the year

1. Lebron
2. Durant
3. Curry
4. Harden
5. Paul
6. Kawhi
7. Dirk
8. Wade
9. Westbrook
10. Kobe

6-10 becomes tricky with a lot of half decades of value, then Westbrook who has mostly a full decade but is flawed. Durant is definitely 2nd in my opinion based on having the perfect timeline.

Flawed maybe but still ranking Westbrook that low is irreconcilable...

Westbrook: 2 top 3 seasons (16, 17), 2 top 5 seasons (14, 15), 3 top 10 seasons (12, 13, 18), 2 top 20 seasons (11, 19)

Wade: 2 top 3 seasons (10, 11), 1 top 10 season (12), 1 top 20 season (13).... and that's it

Dirk: 1 top 3 season (11), 2 top 5 seasons (10, 12), 1 top 10 season (14).... and that's it

Kawhi: 1 top 3 season (19), 2 top 5 seasons (16, 17), 1 top 10 season (15), 1 top 20 season (14, maybe)... and that's it

The career value Westbrook provides is enough to counter the gap provided by these three guys. WB should be sixth at worst.

[Pillendreher]

My ranking of top 10 players of the decade. I may start a poll series closer to the end of the year

1. Lebron
2. Durant
3. Curry
4. Harden
5. Paul
6. Kawhi
7. Dirk
8. Wade
9. Westbrook
10. Kobe

6-10 becomes tricky with a lot of half decades of value, then Westbrook who has mostly a full decade but is flawed. Durant is definitely 2nd in my opinion based on having the perfect timeline.

Dirk? This was his "Old man taking less money on the Mavs so they can dream about free agents" decade.

[Dr Spaceman]

My ranking of top 10 players of the decade. I may start a poll series closer to the end of the year

1. Lebron
2. Durant
3. Curry
4. Harden
5. Paul
6. Kawhi
7. Dirk
8. Wade
9. Westbrook
10. Kobe

6-10 becomes tricky with a lot of half decades of value, then Westbrook who has mostly a full decade but is flawed. Durant is definitely 2nd in my opinion based on having the perfect timeline.

Dirk? This was his "Old man taking less money on the Mavs so they can dream about free agents" decade.

2011 was his peak as a player and 2010 wasn’t really far behind. 12 and 13 were down years but still all star/all nba level and 14 and 15 were extremely high quality, just short of prime seasons. In 14 they almost upset the Spurs and in 15 they were the #1 offense in the league pre-Rondo trade with a bunch of spare parts. They could’ve been a home court playoff team that’s season if Rondo didn’t happen.

[GSP]

My ranking of top 10 players of the decade. I may start a poll series closer to the end of the year

1. Lebron
2. Durant
3. Curry
4. Harden
5. Paul
6. Kawhi
7. Dirk
8. Wade
9. Westbrook
10. Kobe

6-10 becomes tricky with a lot of half decades of value, then Westbrook who has mostly a full decade but is flawed. Durant is definitely 2nd in my opinion based on having the perfect timeline.

Dirk? This was his "Old man taking less money on the Mavs so they can dream about free agents" decade.

2011 was his peak as a player and 2010 wasn’t really far behind. 12 and 13 were down years but still all star/all nba level and 14 and 15 were extremely high quality, just short of prime seasons. In 14 they almost upset the Spurs and in 15 they were the #1 offense in the league pre-Rondo trade with a bunch of spare parts. They could’ve been a home court playoff team that’s season if Rondo didn’t happen.

Dirk making a top 5 offense and 50 win team out of Monta Ellis and Chandler Parsons as a 37yo is really baffling the more I think about that season and as u said they were better pre Rondo

If anything Dirk should still be above Kawhi

Kawhi only has 14, 15, 16, 17 and 19

14 is looked at with rose tinted glasses because of his incredible play the last 3 games and the Fmvp but looking at that whole season and playoffs u could easily make the case Manu or Timmy was their best player. That was an ensemble ring as u can get. Spurs arguably didn't have a top 20 player that year

2015 was a good year but he wasn't an all-star or all NBA player. Spurs got upset in the 1st round and he frankly sucked even on defense, specially screens, offball and pickandroll actions against Clips

[ardee]

Dirk? This was his "Old man taking less money on the Mavs so they can dream about free agents" decade.

2011 was his peak as a player and 2010 wasn’t really far behind. 12 and 13 were down years but still all star/all nba level and 14 and 15 were extremely high quality, just short of prime seasons. In 14 they almost upset the Spurs and in 15 they were the #1 offense in the league pre-Rondo trade with a bunch of spare parts. They could’ve been a home court playoff team that’s season if Rondo didn’t happen.

Dirk making a top 5 offense and 50 win team out of Monta Ellis and Chandler Parsons as a 37yo is really baffling the more I think about that season and as u said they were better pre Rondo

If anything Dirk should still be above Kawhi

Kawhi only has 14, 15, 16, 17 and 19

14 is looked at with rose tinted glasses because of his incredible play the last 3 games and the Fmvp but looking at that whole season and playoffs u could easily make the case Manu or Timmy was their best player. That was an ensemble ring as u can get. Spurs arguably didn't have a top 20 player that year

2015 was a good year but he wasn't an all-star or all NBA player. Spurs got upset in the 1st round and he frankly sucked even on defense, specially screens, offball and pickandroll actions against Clips

Idk I think he was top 10 in 2015 for sure... the top 5 was very strong that year but after that things tailed off. CP3, Curry, Harden, Davis, LeBron and Westbrook were all clearly better than him but I can't think of 4 other players who'd push him into 11. He was the best player on a 6.3 SRS team.

'14 there is an argument for top 20 as well but I could see him sliding out.

[Dr Spaceman]

Dirk? This was his "Old man taking less money on the Mavs so they can dream about free agents" decade.

2011 was his peak as a player and 2010 wasn’t really far behind. 12 and 13 were down years but still all star/all nba level and 14 and 15 were extremely high quality, just short of prime seasons. In 14 they almost upset the Spurs and in 15 they were the #1 offense in the league pre-Rondo trade with a bunch of spare parts. They could’ve been a home court playoff team that’s season if Rondo didn’t happen.

Dirk making a top 5 offense and 50 win team out of Monta Ellis and Chandler Parsons as a 37yo is really baffling the more I think about that season and as u said they were better pre Rondo

If anything Dirk should still be above Kawhi

Kawhi only has 14, 15, 16, 17 and 19

14 is looked at with rose tinted glasses because of his incredible play the last 3 games and the Fmvp but looking at that whole season and playoffs u could easily make the case Manu or Timmy was their best player. That was an ensemble ring as u can get. Spurs arguably didn't have a top 20 player that year

2015 was a good year but he wasn't an all-star or all NBA player. Spurs got upset in the 1st round and he frankly sucked even on defense, specially screens, offball and pickandroll actions against Clips

Yeah people forget how good Dirk was in that 14 season especially. It was basically another prime year for him. He couldn’t play as many minutes but I don’t think the offensive dropoff is very big from his peak years although he did have a bad playoffs.

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[Dr Positivity]

My ranking of top 10 players of the decade. I may start a poll series closer to the end of the year

1. Lebron
2. Durant
3. Curry
4. Harden
5. Paul
6. Kawhi
7. Dirk
8. Wade
9. Westbrook
10. Kobe

6-10 becomes tricky with a lot of half decades of value, then Westbrook who has mostly a full decade but is flawed. Durant is definitely 2nd in my opinion based on having the perfect timeline.

Flawed maybe but still ranking Westbrook that low is irreconcilable...

Westbrook: 2 top 3 seasons (16, 17), 2 top 5 seasons (14, 15), 3 top 10 seasons (12, 13, 18), 2 top 20 seasons (11, 19)

Wade: 2 top 3 seasons (10, 11), 1 top 10 season (12), 1 top 20 season (13).... and that's it

Dirk: 1 top 3 season (11), 2 top 5 seasons (10, 12), 1 top 10 season (14).... and that's it

Kawhi: 1 top 3 season (19), 2 top 5 seasons (16, 17), 1 top 10 season (15), 1 top 20 season (14, maybe)... and that's it

The career value Westbrook provides is enough to counter the gap provided by these three guys. WB should be sixth at worst.

I don't have Russ as ever being a top 5 player honestly let alone top 3. I will take any prime version of Lebron, Durant, Curry, Kawhi or Paul over him which takes him out of the running in 16 or 17. Then there's Harden who is arguably better in 15 and 17 (even if you discredit 16, which I'm not sure is fair), Davis also has strong seasons like 15 and 17. Early Russ might have a chance in some ways since the competition is weaker, but he is more in Durant's 2nd banana mode at that point (also injured half of 2014)

[GSP]

2011 was his peak as a player and 2010 wasn’t really far behind. 12 and 13 were down years but still all star/all nba level and 14 and 15 were extremely high quality, just short of prime seasons. In 14 they almost upset the Spurs and in 15 they were the #1 offense in the league pre-Rondo trade with a bunch of spare parts. They could’ve been a home court playoff team that’s season if Rondo didn’t happen.

Dirk making a top 5 offense and 50 win team out of Monta Ellis and Chandler Parsons as a 37yo is really baffling the more I think about that season and as u said they were better pre Rondo

If anything Dirk should still be above Kawhi

Kawhi only has 14, 15, 16, 17 and 19

14 is looked at with rose tinted glasses because of his incredible play the last 3 games and the Fmvp but looking at that whole season and playoffs u could easily make the case Manu or Timmy was their best player. That was an ensemble ring as u can get. Spurs arguably didn't have a top 20 player that year

2015 was a good year but he wasn't an all-star or all NBA player. Spurs got upset in the 1st round and he frankly sucked even on defense, specially screens, offball and pickandroll actions against Clips

Idk I think he was top 10 in 2015 for sure... the top 5 was very strong that year but after that things tailed off. CP3, Curry, Harden, Davis, LeBron and Westbrook were all clearly better than him but I can't think of 4 other players who'd push him into 11. He was the best player on a 6.3 SRS team.

'14 there is an argument for top 20 as well but I could see him sliding out.

Marc, Blake, Draymond i could easily see pushing Kawhi out. Despite the Dpoy Draymond was right there with him defensively and Warriors won the title mainly on the defensive end. Their offense completely tanked in the playoffs

Are we sure Kawhi was better than Timmy that year? Timmys rim protection and positioning was prolly just as important for their defense and he was still a more reliable offensive player as the playoffs showed. Kawhi still wasnt there offensively

[ardee]

Dirk making a top 5 offense and 50 win team out of Monta Ellis and Chandler Parsons as a 37yo is really baffling the more I think about that season and as u said they were better pre Rondo

If anything Dirk should still be above Kawhi

Kawhi only has 14, 15, 16, 17 and 19

14 is looked at with rose tinted glasses because of his incredible play the last 3 games and the Fmvp but looking at that whole season and playoffs u could easily make the case Manu or Timmy was their best player. That was an ensemble ring as u can get. Spurs arguably didn't have a top 20 player that year

2015 was a good year but he wasn't an all-star or all NBA player. Spurs got upset in the 1st round and he frankly sucked even on defense, specially screens, offball and pickandroll actions against Clips

Idk I think he was top 10 in 2015 for sure... the top 5 was very strong that year but after that things tailed off. CP3, Curry, Harden, Davis, LeBron and Westbrook were all clearly better than him but I can't think of 4 other players who'd push him into 11. He was the best player on a 6.3 SRS team.

'14 there is an argument for top 20 as well but I could see him sliding out.

Marc, Blake, Draymond i could easily see pushing Kawhi out. Despite the Dpoy Draymond was right there with him defensively and Warriors won the title mainly on the defensive end. Their offense completely tanked in the playoffs

Are we sure Kawhi was better than Timmy that year? Timmys rim protection and positioning was prolly just as important for their defense and he was still a more reliable offensive player as the playoffs showed. Kawhi still wasnt there offensively

Oh right forgot about Blake he was a beast. Definitely over Kawhi.

The other two... I'd take Kawhi. All are probably on similar levels defensively but I think Kawhi was the best on offense. Once he got healthy he was good of 20 ppg north of 60% TS.

[Doctor MJ]

My ranking of top 10 players of the decade. I may start a poll series closer to the end of the year

1. Lebron
2. Durant
3. Curry
4. Harden
5. Paul
6. Kawhi
7. Dirk
8. Wade
9. Westbrook
10. Kobe

6-10 becomes tricky with a lot of half decades of value, then Westbrook who has mostly a full decade but is flawed. Durant is definitely 2nd in my opinion based on having the perfect timeline.

I see the conundrum you're in, and basically you're choosing the 10 most noteworthy players of the decade as opposed to looking at cumulative impact. I think you've got every right to do that. It's something I struggle with because a more literal interpretation of impact would end up with a less discussion-worthy group of names.

[Dr Positivity]

My ranking of top 10 players of the decade. I may start a poll series closer to the end of the year

1. Lebron
2. Durant
3. Curry
4. Harden
5. Paul
6. Kawhi
7. Dirk
8. Wade
9. Westbrook
10. Kobe

6-10 becomes tricky with a lot of half decades of value, then Westbrook who has mostly a full decade but is flawed. Durant is definitely 2nd in my opinion based on having the perfect timeline.

I see the conundrum you're in, and basically you're choosing the 10 most noteworthy players of the decade as opposed to looking at cumulative impact. I think you've got every right to do that. It's something I struggle with because a more literal interpretation of impact would end up with a less discussion-worthy group of names.

To put it this way - what gives you a better chance of winning a championship, having a half decade of Kobe, or a full decade of LMA/Marc Gasol? I would pick Kobe, though I understand if someone went the other way (and I suppose I should count his last few years as negative points). Gasol has a many titles as Kobe this decade proving there is value in 10 years of all star play. Dirk over those guys seems like a no brainer to me as he's elite level for the first half of the decade, and then still decent after that up until his last washed season. I feel pretty confident putting Dirk and Wade in top 10 considering they played the whole decade and were only bad for about 1 year each, but booting Kobe would be understandable

[anthony00]

My ranking of top 10 players of the decade. I may start a poll series closer to the end of the year

1. Lebron
2. Durant
3. Curry
4. Harden
5. Paul
6. Kawhi
7. Dirk
8. Wade
9. Westbrook
10. Kobe

6-10 becomes tricky with a lot of half decades of value, then Westbrook who has mostly a full decade but is flawed. Durant is definitely 2nd in my opinion based on having the perfect timeline.

Flawed maybe but still ranking Westbrook that low is irreconcilable...

Westbrook: 2 top 3 seasons (16, 17), 2 top 5 seasons (14, 15), 3 top 10 seasons (12, 13, 18), 2 top 20 seasons (11, 19)

Wade: 2 top 3 seasons (10, 11), 1 top 10 season (12), 1 top 20 season (13).... and that's it

Dirk: 1 top 3 season (11), 2 top 5 seasons (10, 12), 1 top 10 season (14).... and that's it

Kawhi: 1 top 3 season (19), 2 top 5 seasons (16, 17), 1 top 10 season (15), 1 top 20 season (14, maybe)... and that's it

The career value Westbrook provides is enough to counter the gap provided by these three guys. WB should be sixth at worst.

I don't have Russ as ever being a top 5 player honestly let alone top 3. I will take any prime version of Lebron, Durant, Curry, Kawhi or Paul over him which takes him out of the running in 16 or 17. Then there's Harden who is arguably better in 15 and 17 (even if you discredit 16, which I'm not sure is fair), Davis also has strong seasons like 15 and 17. Early Russ might have a chance in some ways since the competition is weaker, but he is more in Durant's 2nd banana mode at that point (also injured half of 2014)

Russ was better then kd in both the 2014 and 2016 playoffs. He also averaged 27 6 and 6 as a second option in the 2012 finals including a game of 43 points 5 assist. He may be flawed always has been and he may be a shell of his formal self now But y'all on realgm undersell his 2012-2017 campaign because of his playstyle.

[Doctor MJ]

I myself thinking more about where contemporary players would go in my Top 100 relative to each other, and I think it's worth focusing specifically on Kawhi here.

The thing is that if you go by things like total Win Shares, Kawhi doesn't look like a Top 10 2010's player, and it's easy to talk about that in terms of him being a partial decade player, but I think about in terms of indelible legacy, Kawhi seems to have established himself as one of the core Top Players of the 2010's.

Holding Kobe, Dirk & Wade out because they're legacy is from something of an earlier "2000s" era (I know Wade was drafted in 2003, but he was older and hit prime early, were I to rank the most Top 100-worthy of the "2010s guys":

1. LeBron James - obviously
2. Steph Curry - many will have Durant 2nd
3. Kevin Durant
4. Chris Paul - many would put him lower, but to me Durant vs Paul was a debate
5. James Harden
6. Kawhi Leonard - some would put him higher, but this seems the most rational spot to me
7. Russell Westbrook

And then it gets hard. Here are guys from oldest in the league to newest, that I think could be considered while still plausibly being 2010s players:

Chris Bosh
Carmelo Anthony
Dwight Howard
LaMarcus Aldridge
Paul Millsap
Kyle Lowry
Marc Gasol
Al Horford
Blake Griffin
Paul George
Klay Thompson
Draymond Green
Damian Lillard
Anthony Davis
Giannis Antetokounmpo

I think it's awfully hard to know how to rate these players.

Howard's got the edge in terms of prior evaluation. He was seen as a Top 50 player years ago, and it's a question of how much that sticks in the long term.

I would personally be inclined, for example, to rate Bosh ahead of Howard, and looking down the list, I might side with Bosh over anyone else.

Dray & Klay are hard to judge. Realistically to me they're already in the category of "Hall lock unless he undoes his legacy somehow", and that is a hard thing for me to discount. Keeping Howard & Bosh out of it:

Melo will make the Hall but he wouldn't get my vote for the Hall, so it's easy for me to put Green ahead of him.

Of all the other candidates before the very last one, only Gasol seems like a near HOF lock, but his edge on that front comes from international legacy.

Then there's Giannis. The super high-peak young guy who so much of where you rate him depends on how you rate peak vs longevity.

Factoring in all players mentioned and listing just the players I'd expect to vote for in the Top 100:

1. LeBron James
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Dirk Nowitzki
4. Steph Curry
5. Dwyane Wade
6. Kevin Durant
7. Chris Paul
8. James Harden
9. Kawhi Leonard
10. Russell Westbrook
11. Chris Bosh
12. Giannis Antetokounmpo
13. Draymond Green
14. Dwight Howard
15. Marc Gasol

[Slava]

I'm surprised to see Dwight listed for 2010s, his peak was 2009 and it's only been a steady decline since then. I'd much rather include Kyrie in that conversation.

[yoyoboy]

Performance of Top Duos:

LeBron + Davis:
297 MP
115.8 ORTG
100.7 DRTG
+15.1 Net

Harden + Westbrook:
253 MP
110.7 ORTG
105.9 DRTG
+4.8 Net

Simmons + Embiid:
122 MP
112.2 ORTG
102.8 DRTG
+9.4 Net

Doncic + Porzingis:
282 MP
106.4 ORTG
112.4 DRTG
-6.0 Net

Mitchell + Gobert:
312 MP
109.1 ORTG
99.1 DRTG
+10.0 Net

Murray + Jokic:
332 MP
115.5 ORTG
104.6 DRTG
+8.9 Net

Lillard + McCollum:
413 MP
116.9 ORTG
109.2 DRTG
+7.7 Net

Giannis + Bledsoe:
252 MP
113.1 ORTG
100.5 DRTG
+12.6 Net

Kemba + Tatum:
292 MP
120.2 ORTG
103.7 DRTG
+16.5 Net (if you make their duo Hayward-Tatum they're actually +23.2)

Butler + Adebayo:
259 MP
109.8 ORTG
100.8 DRTG
+9.0 Net

Lowry + Siakam:
210 MP
112.0 ORTG
104.2 DRTG
+7.8 Net

Curry + Draymond:
86 MP
101.0 ORTG
123.0 DRTG
-22.0 Net

DeRozan + Aldridge:
376 MP
110.3 ORTG
115.5 DRTG
-5.2 Net

Brogdon + Sabonis:
267 MP
114.4 ORTG
100.2 DRTG
+14.2 Net

Booker + Baynes:
213 MP
124.1 ORTG
113.7 DRTG
+10.4 Net

Wiggins + Towns:
221 MP
112.7 ORTG
108.8 DRTG
+3.9 Net

Kawhi + Lou Will:
161 MP
113.8 ORTG
102.2 DRTG
+11.6 Net (if you make their duo Kawhi-Harrell, they're actually +19.1)

I fully expect Kawhi-George to put up ridiculous figures together.

[Dr Spaceman]

I'm surprised to see Dwight listed for 2010s, his peak was 2009 and it's only been a steady decline since then. I'd much rather include in that conversation.

I think 09-11 are all on the same level for Dwight. He probably should’ve been the 11 MVP, him or Bron. It wasn’t until 2012 that the back injuries started to take their toll and he was still really effective in 12, just below peak level when healthy although I ding him for the Dwightmare stuff.

[eminence]

Paul George has come out hot, wowsers.

Conley for CP3 - a deal y'all support? Maybe a minor incentive from OKC? Utah gets the better player in pursuit of a title, OKC saves a buttload of cash.

[therealbig3]

So...Westbrook has been really bad this year. I kind of knew him and Harden would be an awful fit, but part of me was hoping they could recapture what they had in OKC before, but they both developed into two super high usage volume scorers since then, and neither one can really adapt. Westbrook is useless off the ball pretty much since he's such a bad shooter, but Harden kind of needs to dominate the ball.

You have one ball and two ball-dominant players...one of them can't shoot, and the other one doesn't do anything off the ball. Recipe for distaster.

Kind of makes what Harden is doing even more impressive. They're 10-3 despite the awful fit.