Giannis w/ Curry's jumper or Lebron w/ Durant's jumper

[70sFan]

BTW, I watched highlight videos Magic Gianniso posted and I see nothing amazing about these reels. He made some impressive passes, but most of them are what I called - kickouts to spread shooters. Giannis playmaking is nice but one-dimensional - drive and kick. He's good passer but definitely not elite.

Someone like Boris Diaw made this passes with closed eyes. That's bigman I'd call elite passer.

[freethedevil]

Hmm...so close and completely hypothetical.

I think this thread has lead us to something else worth discussion...

Bigger Gap: Giannis/LeBron defense or Giannis/LeBron Passing

How is passing relevant here? Curry's shooting makes him a better teammate creator than lebron. Hence Giannis would become better at creating offense for his teammates.

That is if you think Curry is a better creator and I don't think he is.

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Given that he has the greater effect on teammate effiency, i' not really seeing the argument against it. At the very least there's zero argument against curry making giannis one of the best creators ver which makes giannis/curry vs lebron/kd a hard stomp in gianis's favor

[freethedevil]

I don’t think Lebron gets that much better from adding Kd’s jumper honestly. Giannis on the other hand becomes the goat offensive player, possibly by a lot along with defense much better than peak Lebron’s. Don’t really care if he’s still behind in passing, i’m taking the goat 3 point shooter who can’t be pushed around by size or be targeted on defense.

Fixed it for ya.

Much better? I don't know about that. Much better would pretty much put him in KG/Duncan tier for defense which he very clearly isn't. I wouldn't even put him on peak Dray's level.

Given that dray, kg, and duncan are all hiliriously better defenders than Lebron, I fail to see your point

[AussieBuck]

Giannis with Curry's jumper is basically Durant with worse handles but better finishing

You must be a really big fan of overly fancy crossovers. Durant battles when faced with guards hawking his dribble (even with his thread of rising up or stepping back or sideways for a jumper), teams gave up on trying to pick Giannis' dribble years ago. Their fundamental handles aren't really that close. Giannis is significantly more sound under pressure.

[Colbinii]

How is passing relevant here? Curry's shooting makes him a better teammate creator than lebron. Hence Giannis would become better at creating offense for his teammates.

That is if you think Curry is a better creator and I don't think he is.

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Given that he has the greater effect on teammate effiency, i' not really seeing the argument against it. At the very least there's zero argument against curry making giannis one of the best creators ver which makes giannis/curry vs lebron/kd a hard stomp in gianis's favor

LeBron is already one of the best creators ever while adding Durant's shooting keeps LeBron in the category of "One of the best creators ever".

Do you have the data on LeBron and Curry teammate efficiency for both primes?

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[No-more-rings]

Fixed it for ya.

Much better? I don't know about that. Much better would pretty much put him in KG/Duncan tier for defense which he very clearly isn't. I wouldn't even put him on peak Dray's level.

Given that dray, kg, and duncan are all hiliriously better defenders than Lebron, I fail to see your point

That's kind of my point though. I think Giannis would need to be on their level or near it to be "way better than Lebron".

[freethedevil]

Much better? I don't know about that. Much better would pretty much put him in KG/Duncan tier for defense which he very clearly isn't. I wouldn't even put him on peak Dray's level.

Given that dray, kg, and duncan are all hiliriously better defenders than Lebron, I fail to see your point

That's kind of my point though. I think Giannis would need to be on their level or near it to be "way better than Lebron".

Huh? Why?

17 Lebron is a much better offensive player than 19 kawhi. Does Kawhi need to be lebron level offensively to be way better than embid?

Giannis is both one of the best perimiter defenders in the league and one of the best rim protectors in the league. Lebron was only ever one of those things and it was the thing which all data tells us is less valuable from an individual. KG or Duncan comparisons really aren't neccesary here.

[No-more-rings]

Given that dray, kg, and duncan are all hiliriously better defenders than Lebron, I fail to see your point

That's kind of my point though. I think Giannis would need to be on their level or near it to be "way better than Lebron".

Huh? Why?

17 Lebron is a much better offensive player than 19 kawhi. Does Kawhi need to be lebron level offensively to be way better than embid?

Giannis is both one of the best perimiter defenders in the league and one of the best rim protectors in the league. Lebron was only ever one of those things and it was the thing which all data tells us is less valuable from an individual. KG or Duncan comparisons really aren't neccesary here.

I was talking about just on defense.

If there’s impact data suggesting Giannis to blow Lebron away on defense, please present it. Because Lebron had some strong DRAPMs in his prime.

[freethedevil]

That's kind of my point though. I think Giannis would need to be on their level or near it to be "way better than Lebron".

Huh? Why?

17 Lebron is a much better offensive player than 19 kawhi. Does Kawhi need to be lebron level offensively to be way better than embid?

Giannis is both one of the best perimiter defenders in the league and one of the best rim protectors in the league. Lebron was only ever one of those things and it was the thing which all data tells us is less valuable from an individual. KG or Duncan comparisons really aren't neccesary here.

I was talking about just on defense.

If there’s impact data suggesting Giannis to blow Lebron away on defense, please present it. Because Lebron had some strong DRAPMs in his prime.

Looking at the impact data now, and well, 09 Lebron actually has a better dpipm than any of Giannis's. Giannis has a twice the dpipm of any other lebron season from 18-19 and 19-20. SRS differential(the purely emperical part of CORP) views Giannis's defense in 18-19 as twice as valuable as the defense in any of lebron's. Maybe 09 lebron was better, but by those metrics 09 lebron was also just a vastly better player than anyone in history.

[Mazter]

Maybe 09 lebron was better, but by those metrics 09 lebron was also just a vastly better player than anyone in history.

Well, isn't this topic about prime Lebron/Durant jumper vs prime Giannis/Curry jumper?

[Baski]

The thing that will always separate Giannis and LeBron is passing. LeBron with Kd's jumper is actually unstoppable. We're talking about 70 TS% seasons on top being a top 10 playmaker of all time. LeBron is already the best skip passer in NBA history, now imagine his skip passes if he could shoot like KD.

How do you figure Lebron would go from his typical 60-62 ts% in his prime up to 70 just by becoming a better shooter? He’s already become pretty good at it himself and also had some very good years from 3 point land. It becomes more and more difficult to sustain efficiency the higher up you go.

I'm thinking higher volume of 3s at equal or better percentages as his (Lebron's) peak, vastly improved free throw shooting, midrange % up from that 37-42% range to Durant's 50-ish%. That's a significant jump.
Plus the possibility of better at rim percentages because defenders wouldn't sag off him.

Another thing that should be considered here is that Lebron would be using Durant's jumper with Lebron's IQ. That means better shots taken. I could see 70% for one peak season where everything comes together for him, and 65-68 for the years around that peak year.

[Baski]

Does Giannis also get Curry's ball handling and endurance/quickness combo?

Curry is able to distort defenses so much because he moves off the ball A LOT. Can Giannis curl around screens at that high speed for 25 mins a night and spam relocation 3s and keep attacking the rim with the same energy and maintain his defensive intensity? Can he put defenders on skates and then pull up right in their face?
If not I imagine the effect of his gravity, while still very high, is significantly reduced compared to Curry.
He'll shoot 45% on spot ups and 35-40% on pullups, but his gravity won't be as groundbreaking as you would initially think

Thoughts?

[No-more-rings]

The thing that will always separate Giannis and LeBron is passing. LeBron with Kd's jumper is actually unstoppable. We're talking about 70 TS% seasons on top being a top 10 playmaker of all time. LeBron is already the best skip passer in NBA history, now imagine his skip passes if he could shoot like KD.

How do you figure Lebron would go from his typical 60-62 ts% in his prime up to 70 just by becoming a better shooter? He’s already become pretty good at it himself and also had some very good years from 3 point land. It becomes more and more difficult to sustain efficiency the higher up you go.

I'm thinking higher volume of 3s at equal or better percentages as his (Lebron's) peak, vastly improved free throw shooting, midrange % up from that 37-42% range to Durant's 50-ish%. That's a significant jump.
Plus the possibility of better at rim percentages because defenders wouldn't sag off him.

Another thing that should be considered here is that Lebron would be using Durant's jumper with Lebron's IQ. That means better shots taken. I could see 70% for one peak season where everything comes together for him, and 65-68 for the years around that peak year.

Don't know if i can buy 70 though. Curry's highest was 67.5, and that came at 42.3 3p% on 9.8 attempts, and 92.1 ft %. KD hasn't really come close to that type of 3 point efficacy, nor has he reached that efficiency of free throws. I guess maybe at peak scoring he could come close, i could see like 68-69 i guess, but he certainly wouldn't have multiple 70 % seasons, and would be more somewhere around like 64-67% depending on what season and what team he's on.

[Dollop]

Does Giannis also get Curry's ball handling and endurance/quickness combo?

Curry is able to distort defenses so much because he moves off the ball A LOT. Can Giannis curl around screens at that high speed for 25 mins a night and spam relocation 3s and keep attacking the rim with the same energy and maintain his defensive intensity? Can he put defenders on skates and then pull up right in their face?
If not I imagine the effect of his gravity, while still very high, is significantly reduced compared to Curry.
He'll shoot 45% on spot ups and 35-40% on pullups, but his gravity won't be as groundbreaking as you would initially think

Thoughts?

Why would he need to when he can shoot over anyone who can remotely keep up with him and they still have to sell out somewhat to keep him out of the paint? That goes into off ball movements too.

Obviously Giannis will have to work on some on and off ball skills that he doesn’t utilize because they don’t remotely make sense with his current shooting/skillet to fully take advantage like Curry with his physical limitations. It’d just have to be a fraction as nuanced as Curry and a fraction as difficult as the other strides he’s made in his game.

[Baski]

Don't know if i can buy 70 though. Curry's highest was 67.5, and that came at 42.3 3p% on 9.8 attempts, and 92.1 ft %. KD hasn't really come close to that type of 3 point efficacy, nor has he reached that efficiency of free throws. I guess maybe at peak scoring he could come close, i could see like 68-69 i guess, but he certainly wouldn't have multiple 70 % seasons, and would be more somewhere around like 64-67% depending on what season and what team he's on.

I mean if you can see 69 why not 70?

Curry isn't as efficient inside as Lebron is. His peak TS season he shot 59.5% from 2. That would be Lebron's 5th best. Giving Lebron Durant's jumper ups his 2P%, his 3P% and his FT%. And this is assuming he doesn't convert some of those 2s into 3s.

Thing about KD is that his IQ isn't as great as Lebron's, nor is he as athletic. Durant typically takes shots he can make, which is every shot. Lebron would know how to leverage his shooting ability with his passing ability to get even more efficent shots.

Lebron has had 64-67% TS seasons with a worse jumper than Durant. That's definitely lower than what his peak self with KDs jumper would get.

[Baski]

Does Giannis also get Curry's ball handling and endurance/quickness combo?

Curry is able to distort defenses so much because he moves off the ball A LOT. Can Giannis curl around screens at that high speed for 25 mins a night and spam relocation 3s and keep attacking the rim with the same energy and maintain his defensive intensity? Can he put defenders on skates and then pull up right in their face?
If not I imagine the effect of his gravity, while still very high, is significantly reduced compared to Curry.
He'll shoot 45% on spot ups and 35-40% on pullups, but his gravity won't be as groundbreaking as you would initially think

Thoughts?

Why would he need to when he can shoot over anyone who can remotely keep up with him and they still have to sell out somewhat to keep him out of the paint? That goes into off ball movements too.

Obviously Giannis will have to work on some on and off ball skills that he doesn’t utilize because they don’t remotely make sense with his current shooting/skillet to fully take advantage like Curry with his physical limitations. It’d just have to be a fraction as nuanced as Curry and a fraction as difficult as the other strides he’s made in his game.

Yes you're saying Giannis would still be unstoppable with Curry's jumper. He'd probably be nigh unstoppable with even Brogdon's jumper. I'm saying we should properly analyze to what extent that would be so.
He wouldn't need to do all that stuff, but he wouldn't be able to either which should be taken into account when discussing how he affects the game.

[Mazter]

Don't know if i can buy 70 though. Curry's highest was 67.5, and that came at 42.3 3p% on 9.8 attempts, and 92.1 ft %. KD hasn't really come close to that type of 3 point efficacy, nor has he reached that efficiency of free throws. I guess maybe at peak scoring he could come close, i could see like 68-69 i guess, but he certainly wouldn't have multiple 70 % seasons, and would be more somewhere around like 64-67% depending on what season and what team he's on.

Improve Lebron 13/14 with a 49% midrange shot, a 42% 3 point shot and a 90% FT shot and you have a 71% type of guy. I didn't do the estimates on all seasons compared to each other, but last season Durant shot 53.4% from inside the arc. And this is not taking into account LeBron combined with the Durant jumper making him harder to defend. LeBron had a 35%/30% season on open shots from 2P/3P range. Durant was a 50%/40% guy. You wouldn't want to give him 4+ feet making it easier for him to drive or cut.

I think the same goes for Giannis/Curry, that would also become a potential 70+% true shooter.

[itsxtray]

Does Giannis also get Curry's ball handling and endurance/quickness combo?

Curry is able to distort defenses so much because he moves off the ball A LOT. Can Giannis curl around screens at that high speed for 25 mins a night and spam relocation 3s and keep attacking the rim with the same energy and maintain his defensive intensity? Can he put defenders on skates and then pull up right in their face?
If not I imagine the effect of his gravity, while still very high, is significantly reduced compared to Curry.
He'll shoot 45% on spot ups and 35-40% on pullups, but his gravity won't be as groundbreaking as you would initially think

Thoughts?

When I made the thread it was just the jumper and none of the other skills because Giannis having curry ball handling at 6'11 and his agility around screens just seemed too farfetched but if you wanna explore that scenario be my guest

[Dollop]

Does Giannis also get Curry's ball handling and endurance/quickness combo?

Curry is able to distort defenses so much because he moves off the ball A LOT. Can Giannis curl around screens at that high speed for 25 mins a night and spam relocation 3s and keep attacking the rim with the same energy and maintain his defensive intensity? Can he put defenders on skates and then pull up right in their face?
If not I imagine the effect of his gravity, while still very high, is significantly reduced compared to Curry.
He'll shoot 45% on spot ups and 35-40% on pullups, but his gravity won't be as groundbreaking as you would initially think

Thoughts?

Why would he need to when he can shoot over anyone who can remotely keep up with him and they still have to sell out somewhat to keep him out of the paint? That goes into off ball movements too.

Obviously Giannis will have to work on some on and off ball skills that he doesn’t utilize because they don’t remotely make sense with his current shooting/skillet to fully take advantage like Curry with his physical limitations. It’d just have to be a fraction as nuanced as Curry and a fraction as difficult as the other strides he’s made in his game.

Yes you're saying Giannis would still be unstoppable with Curry's jumper. He'd probably be nigh unstoppable with even Brogdon's jumper. I'm saying we should properly analyze to what extent that would be so.
He wouldn't need to do all that stuff, but he wouldn't be able to either which should be taken into account when discussing how he affects the game.

I think the list of what Giannis can do with Currys jumper that affect the game that Curry can’t is significantly greater. I think many of the things you described in your first post that give Curry semi-open looks that he can hit greater than anyone in Basketball history is unnecessary due to Giannis very nature and is mainly a stylistic preference. Additionally, I think he would have to work much easier and with much less skill to open the game up for himself and his teammates at a similar or greater level.

I really don’t think I’m overrating/overstating Currys shooting ability compared to elite handles, off ball game, bbiq, etc but maybe I am. In the whole player player mash up thing adding Currys shooting ability (especially to bigger guys) is like the whole “give player x LeBron/shaq/Giannis physical profile.” It can somewhat make sense if it’s and already great/elite shooter that you’re making over the top. Durant with Currys shot is pretty easily GOAT offensive player imo.

[euroleague]

Hmm...so close and completely hypothetical.

I think this thread has lead us to something else worth discussion...

Bigger Gap: Giannis/LeBron defense or Giannis/LeBron Passing

Is it even a sure thing that Giannis is the better defender?



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Curry has the fastest release, and can shoot from the logo. Giannis is 7 feet tall and runs like a gazelle. Not only can he shoot over any guard and easily get space from any center from anywhere on the court, but he can blow by them and dunk on an empty rim whenever he wants.

That idea is just laughable. Try following Giannis running around screens off ball - the ONLY reason STEPH CURRY isn’t the offensive goat is because of the switching defense staying on him at all times. Doesn’t work on Giannis, who can also dunk on everyone, jump over guards to dunk on them, drive from near the 3 without dribbling....

And let’s not even imagine Giannis curry’s Defense.