Cavs 2019-2020 Regular Season

[jbk1234]

I don't think Garland is a bust. He has the potential to be a really good player. But I do worry that the Hawks jumping up and snagging Hunter at No. 4 could haunt us for a long time. He's going to be a perfect compliment next to Trae instead of Sexton.

I don't think a starting unit with Love, Sexton, and Garland is viable defensively.

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[JonFromVA]

I don't think Garland is a bust. He has the potential to be a really good player. But I do worry that the Hawks jumping up and snagging Hunter at No. 4 could haunt us for a long time. He's going to be a perfect compliment next to Trae instead of Sexton.

I don't think a starting unit with Love, Sexton, and Garland is viable defensively.

Offense and defense aren't equal though. If we can cleanup the uncontested layups, I'm actually enthused about the chances of this working because for instance look at how much bigger Chicago's back-court was to ours, but how often did they actually exploit that advantage?

If we end up having to break up the back-court, I think we'll either trade Collin or let him replace Clarkson as our scorer off the bench. Darius is much more of a natural PG ... but it's way too early to call either way IMO.

As for Hunter ... he's a solid prospect, but he's 22 already and we're not at a point we're looking for players to fill out the roster, but rather players who might break out and lead the roster.

On a side note, our defensive rating (108.1) is down 9.5 from last year and we're 16th in the league. That's a huge improvement from worst all time, and we haven't been that good since David Blatt was the head coach, and Ty Lue was in charge of the D.

Not a coincidence or a short-term spike, IMO.

Being competently coached on both sides of the ball makes a difference.

[jbk1234]

I don't think Garland is a bust. He has the potential to be a really good player. But I do worry that the Hawks jumping up and snagging Hunter at No. 4 could haunt us for a long time. He's going to be a perfect compliment next to Trae instead of Sexton.

I don't think a starting unit with Love, Sexton, and Garland is viable defensively.

Offense and defense aren't equal though. If we can cleanup the uncontested layups, I'm actually enthused about the chances of this working because for instance look at how much bigger Chicago's back-court was to ours, but how often did they actually exploit that advantage?

If we end up having to break up the back-court, I think we'll either trade Collin or let him replace Clarkson as our scorer off the bench. Darius is much more of a natural PG ... but it's way too early to call either way IMO.

As for Hunter ... he's a solid prospect, but he's 22 already and we're not at a point we're looking for players to fill out the roster, but rather players who might break out and lead the roster.

On a side note, our defensive rating (108.1) is down 9.5 from last year and we're 16th in the league. That's a huge improvement from worst all time, and we haven't been that good since David Blatt was the head coach, and Ty Lue was in charge of the D.

Not a coincidence or a short-term spike, IMO.

Being competently coached on both sides of the ball makes a difference.

Right now, we're good enough to beat bad teams with a front court that is giving all star production at both positions. We're too bad defensively to get stops in the 4th quarter against good teams. We have yet to a play a team that has good players at both PG and SG. I think our rebounding advantage coupled with the fact that the teams we played aren't that good offensively, is making our defensive numbers look much better than we can expect going forward.

It's early, and obviously both Garland and Sexton could improve on that side of the ball, but I think they're both going to be physically limited in their defensive ceilings for their entire careers. I don't see a realistic projection where they both start for a team with a high ceiling in the post season. You can't hide both guards.

My immediate concern is that Love's trade value will eventually be impacted by having Garland and Sexton play in front of him. While there are aspects of his defense that are underrated, he's a really poor rim protector. If the long-term plan is to try to start Garland and Sexton in the same back court, then you need better help defense and rim protection out of the PF position. You also need better rim protection out of the center position.

So if our long-term plan is to really try to make that back court work, then we should looking to trade both Love and TT this season at their highest possible value in order to build the highest-ceiling roster around that concept that we can. In the short term, I think it would be better if Garland came off the bench in order to accomplish that goal.

[JonFromVA]

I don't think Garland is a bust. He has the potential to be a really good player. But I do worry that the Hawks jumping up and snagging Hunter at No. 4 could haunt us for a long time. He's going to be a perfect compliment next to Trae instead of Sexton.

I don't think a starting unit with Love, Sexton, and Garland is viable defensively.

Offense and defense aren't equal though. If we can cleanup the uncontested layups, I'm actually enthused about the chances of this working because for instance look at how much bigger Chicago's back-court was to ours, but how often did they actually exploit that advantage?

If we end up having to break up the back-court, I think we'll either trade Collin or let him replace Clarkson as our scorer off the bench. Darius is much more of a natural PG ... but it's way too early to call either way IMO.

As for Hunter ... he's a solid prospect, but he's 22 already and we're not at a point we're looking for players to fill out the roster, but rather players who might break out and lead the roster.

On a side note, our defensive rating (108.1) is down 9.5 from last year and we're 16th in the league. That's a huge improvement from worst all time, and we haven't been that good since David Blatt was the head coach, and Ty Lue was in charge of the D.

Not a coincidence or a short-term spike, IMO.

Being competently coached on both sides of the ball makes a difference.

Right now, we're good enough to beat bad teams with a front court that is giving all star production at both positions. We're too bad defensively to get stops in the 4th quarter against good teams. We have yet to a play a team that has good players at both PG and SG. I think our rebounding advantage coupled with the fact that the teams we played aren't that good offensively, is making our defensive numbers look much better than we can expect going forward.

It's early, and obviously both Garland and Sexton could improve on that side of the ball, but I think they're both going to be physically limited in their defensive ceilings for their entire careers. I don't see a realistic projection where they both start for a team with a high ceiling in the post season. You can't hide both guards.

My immediate concern is that Love's trade value will eventually be impacted by having Garland and Sexton play in front of him. While there are aspects of his defense that are underrated, he's a really poor rim protector. If the long-term plan is to try to start Garland and Sexton in the same back court, then you need better help defense and rim protection out of the PF position. You also need better rim protection out of the center position.

So if our long-term plan is to really try to make that back court work, then we should looking to trade both Love and TT this season at their highest possible value in order to build the highest-ceiling roster around that concept that we can. In the short term, I think it would be better if Garland came off the bench in order to accomplish that goal.

I'm just in no rush to write anything off including that Kevin and Tristan can't work out, and I'm certainly making no plans for our next championship parade. We're just trying to climb above the other refuse in the East at this point.

btw, you did see Tristan blocking 5 shots last night, right?

And just so happens dominating the defensive boards is an aspect of defense, albeit it helps to contest shots. Not every team is going to miss uncontested layups, lol.

[jbk1234]

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[jbk1234]

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[Stillwater]

i think at this point they might have to go full 5 year rebuild and trade love next summer.
maybe they need now to move knight into the sl at the point or even delly if thats what it takes to get the offense moving to run through Love.
i dont see that happenning though.
there is no lbj walking through the door . i mean nobody in the next 2 drafts are generational projected types either.
hopefully someone on the roster will put it all together.
after that its just tanking and development which cant be easy on any vet thats used to good basketball

[jbk1234]

i think at this point they might have to go full 5 year rebuild and trade love next summer.
maybe they need now to move knight into the sl at the point or even delly if thats what it takes to get the offense moving to run through Love.
i dont see that happenning though.
there is no lbj walking through the door . i mean nobody in the next 2 drafts are generational projected types either.
hopefully someone on the roster will put it all together.
after that its just tanking and development which cant be easy on any vet thats used to good basketball

Part of my concern goes beyond Love (although I'm very worried about taking a bath on a Love trade because no one stopped the young guys from going YOLO). What type of offense are we building for the long term here? Let's say we trade Love for crappy return because he has enough and asks out, then what? Are we going back to the Kyrie and Dion days? Are we building a team that with a 35-40 win ceiling? Do we even bother drafting offensively talented players at the 3 and 4 if they're not going to get enough touches and/or shots?

It would be one thing if we had an elite Dame/McCollum back court, but if we at least try to be objective, these guys are no where close to that. Garland and Sexton only took two shots from three point range, each, last night and they shot a lot. They need to be taking no less than three each game and four or five would be far better. They're undersized. If they can't consistently connect from out there, we need to know that.

At some point, the F.O. needs to talk to Beilein about the big picture. It's not like Sexton and Garland driving into the trees with no plan B is producing good results. We're getting blown out and racking up Ls.

[Stillwater]

i think at this point they might have to go full 5 year rebuild and trade love next summer.
maybe they need now to move knight into the sl at the point or even delly if thats what it takes to get the offense moving to run through Love.
i dont see that happenning though.
there is no lbj walking through the door . i mean nobody in the next 2 drafts are generational projected types either.
hopefully someone on the roster will put it all together.
after that its just tanking and development which cant be easy on any vet thats used to good basketball

Part of my concern goes beyond Love (although I'm very worried about taking a bath on a Love trade because no one stopped the young guys from going YOLO). What type of offense are we building for the long term here? Let's say we trade Love for crappy return because he has enough and asks out, then what? Are we going back to the Kyrie and Dion days? Are we building a team that with a 35-40 win ceiling? Do we even bother drafting offensively talented players at the 3 and 4 if they're not going to get enough touches and/or shots?

It would be one thing if we had an elite Dame/McCollum back court, but if we at least try to be objective, these guys are no where close to that. Garland and Sexton only took two shots from three point range, each, last night and they shot a lot. They need to be taking no less than three each game and four or five would be far better. They're undersized. If they can't consistently connect from out there, we need to know that.

At some point, the F.O. needs to talk to Beilein about the big picture. It's not like Sexton and Garland driving into the trees with no plan B is producing good results. We're getting blown out and racking up Ls.

I think what is going on here with Beilein is he was hired to develop the young core and to secondarily access the value of some in their prime role players still on the roster and if they are worth retaining for his system , in addition to putting the rookies in the rotation and having them get experience next to said vets.
Problem is they need to also determine if Garland and Sexton can coexist , but doing so right out of the gate was the mistake they made given Garland clearly is far from ready to contribute as a starter, Sexton is still trying to learn to play more off ball than he is used too which is why he often is reverting to tunnel vision points, nobody on the roster is used to Beileins sets yet other than fast learners like Love and maybe JC and yes Love is getting iced out when Beilein wants the young guards to attack because defenders are sticking to Love but nobody else they ever kick to is hitting shots consistently so defenders are just clogging the lane. So yes both of them hitting shots and pounding the ball to Love on the block etc would work but Beilein wants guard paint penetration and appears willing to let them struggle until they improve their ability to make a better pass, make a pass period or take more efficient shots.

[jbk1234]

i think at this point they might have to go full 5 year rebuild and trade love next summer.
maybe they need now to move knight into the sl at the point or even delly if thats what it takes to get the offense moving to run through Love.
i dont see that happenning though.
there is no lbj walking through the door . i mean nobody in the next 2 drafts are generational projected types either.
hopefully someone on the roster will put it all together.
after that its just tanking and development which cant be easy on any vet thats used to good basketball

Part of my concern goes beyond Love (although I'm very worried about taking a bath on a Love trade because no one stopped the young guys from going YOLO). What type of offense are we building for the long term here? Let's say we trade Love for crappy return because he has enough and asks out, then what? Are we going back to the Kyrie and Dion days? Are we building a team that with a 35-40 win ceiling? Do we even bother drafting offensively talented players at the 3 and 4 if they're not going to get enough touches and/or shots?

It would be one thing if we had an elite Dame/McCollum back court, but if we at least try to be objective, these guys are no where close to that. Garland and Sexton only took two shots from three point range, each, last night and they shot a lot. They need to be taking no less than three each game and four or five would be far better. They're undersized. If they can't consistently connect from out there, we need to know that.

At some point, the F.O. needs to talk to Beilein about the big picture. It's not like Sexton and Garland driving into the trees with no plan B is producing good results. We're getting blown out and racking up Ls.

I think what is going on here with Beilein is he was hired to develop the young core and to secondarily access the value of some in their prime role players still on the roster and if they are worth retaining for his system , in addition to putting the rookies in the rotation and having them get experience next to said vets.
Problem is they need to also determine if Garland and Sexton can coexist , but doing so right out of the gate was the mistake they made given Garland clearly is far from ready to contribute as a starter, Sexton is still trying to learn to play more off ball than he is used too which is why he often is reverting to tunnel vision points, nobody on the roster is used to Beileins sets yet other than fast learners like Love and maybe JC and yes Love is getting iced out when Beilein wants the young guards to attack because defenders are sticking to Love but nobody else they ever kick to is hitting shots consistently so defenders are just clogging the lane. So yes both of them hitting shots and pounding the ball to Love on the block etc would work but Beilein wants guard paint penetration and appears willing to let them struggle until they improve their ability to make a better pass, make a pass period or take more efficient shots.

I feel like if I'm the opposing team, I want the Cavs guards to take as many contested shots at the rim as they want - especially if I have a rim protector. If it's Beilein, and I'm not at all convinced it is based on Love's post-game comments last night, then someone on the coaching staff should point out that taking what the other team gives you isn't a good strategy if it results in your guards shooting around 50% at the rim while your most versatile offensive threat gets shut down. I really liked how the offense worked at the beginning of the season and I just hate it now. The ball isn't moving and we're not getting easy looks. Our three point attempts as a team are way, way down and that's with Nance shooting more. You can't win the way we're playing. Frankly, we haven't even been competitive.

[Stillwater]

Part of my concern goes beyond Love (although I'm very worried about taking a bath on a Love trade because no one stopped the young guys from going YOLO). What type of offense are we building for the long term here? Let's say we trade Love for crappy return because he has enough and asks out, then what? Are we going back to the Kyrie and Dion days? Are we building a team that with a 35-40 win ceiling? Do we even bother drafting offensively talented players at the 3 and 4 if they're not going to get enough touches and/or shots?

It would be one thing if we had an elite Dame/McCollum back court, but if we at least try to be objective, these guys are no where close to that. Garland and Sexton only took two shots from three point range, each, last night and they shot a lot. They need to be taking no less than three each game and four or five would be far better. They're undersized. If they can't consistently connect from out there, we need to know that.

At some point, the F.O. needs to talk to Beilein about the big picture. It's not like Sexton and Garland driving into the trees with no plan B is producing good results. We're getting blown out and racking up Ls.

I think what is going on here with Beilein is he was hired to develop the young core and to secondarily access the value of some in their prime role players still on the roster and if they are worth retaining for his system , in addition to putting the rookies in the rotation and having them get experience next to said vets.
Problem is they need to also determine if Garland and Sexton can coexist , but doing so right out of the gate was the mistake they made given Garland clearly is far from ready to contribute as a starter, Sexton is still trying to learn to play more off ball than he is used too which is why he often is reverting to tunnel vision points, nobody on the roster is used to Beileins sets yet other than fast learners like Love and maybe JC and yes Love is getting iced out when Beilein wants the young guards to attack because defenders are sticking to Love but nobody else they ever kick to is hitting shots consistently so defenders are just clogging the lane. So yes both of them hitting shots and pounding the ball to Love on the block etc would work but Beilein wants guard paint penetration and appears willing to let them struggle until they improve their ability to make a better pass, make a pass period or take more efficient shots.

I feel like if I'm the opposing team, I want the Cavs guards to take as many contested shots at the rim as they want - especially if I have a rim protector. If it's Beilein, and I'm not at all convinced it is based on Love's post-game comments last night, then someone on the coaching staff should point out that taking what the other team gives you isn't a good strategy if it results in your guards shooting around 50% at the rim while your most versatile offensive threat gets shut down. I really liked how the offense worked at the beginning of the season and I just hate it now. The ball isn't moving and we're not getting easy looks. Our three point attempts as a team are way, way down and that's with Nance shooting more. You can't win the way we're playing. Frankly, we haven't even been competitive.

I agree they can't win many games as it is going until everyone starts executing what Beilein is asking them to do and it starts on the defensive end which last night for example was terrible effort across the board with only a couple nice plays by Sexton and Nance. I think defense has been for the most part the main focus this season and the offensive sets are pretty much them winging it and him coaching it in game.
The whole attacking the paint thing would work if we had better cutters and shooting so the paint wasn't clogged so much,or if we had the dynamic finisher Garland was supposed to be, or the 40% 3 point shooter Sexton was last season and yeah continuing to run in there knowing they don't have execution around them really looks stupid, but it has to be by design until somebody steps up and breaks through the wall...there is no other reasonable explanation imo

[jbk1234]

I think what is going on here with Beilein is he was hired to develop the young core and to secondarily access the value of some in their prime role players still on the roster and if they are worth retaining for his system , in addition to putting the rookies in the rotation and having them get experience next to said vets.
Problem is they need to also determine if Garland and Sexton can coexist , but doing so right out of the gate was the mistake they made given Garland clearly is far from ready to contribute as a starter, Sexton is still trying to learn to play more off ball than he is used too which is why he often is reverting to tunnel vision points, nobody on the roster is used to Beileins sets yet other than fast learners like Love and maybe JC and yes Love is getting iced out when Beilein wants the young guards to attack because defenders are sticking to Love but nobody else they ever kick to is hitting shots consistently so defenders are just clogging the lane. So yes both of them hitting shots and pounding the ball to Love on the block etc would work but Beilein wants guard paint penetration and appears willing to let them struggle until they improve their ability to make a better pass, make a pass period or take more efficient shots.

I feel like if I'm the opposing team, I want the Cavs guards to take as many contested shots at the rim as they want - especially if I have a rim protector. If it's Beilein, and I'm not at all convinced it is based on Love's post-game comments last night, then someone on the coaching staff should point out that taking what the other team gives you isn't a good strategy if it results in your guards shooting around 50% at the rim while your most versatile offensive threat gets shut down. I really liked how the offense worked at the beginning of the season and I just hate it now. The ball isn't moving and we're not getting easy looks. Our three point attempts as a team are way, way down and that's with Nance shooting more. You can't win the way we're playing. Frankly, we haven't even been competitive.

I agree they can't win many games as it is going until everyone starts executing what Beilein is asking them to do and it starts on the defensive end which last night for example was terrible effort across the board with only a couple nice plays by Sexton and Nance. I think defense has been for the most part the main focus this season and the offensive sets are pretty much them winging it and him coaching it in game.
The whole attacking the paint thing would work if we had better cutters and shooting so the paint wasn't clogged so much,or if we had the dynamic finisher Garland was supposed to be, or the 40% 3 point shooter Sexton was last season and yeah continuing to run in there knowing they don't have execution around them really looks stupid, but it has to be by design until somebody steps up and breaks through the wall...there is no other reasonable explanation imo

Defensively, Griffin was six of seven from 3 point range. Those were 18 of his points. Most of them were wide open as Love was rotating over to help or covering the paint on transition D and no one rotated over to cover. TT had his hand full with Drummond.

So unless the answer is Love just sticks with Griffin and doesn't help to protect the paint at all, the guards have to do something other than ball watch when they get beat. I'm just watching a lot of bad habits form with these young guys and I feel like corrective measures need to happen.



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[Stillwater]

^ i dont think Garland has a clue how to defend any position besides the 1

[jbk1234]

^ i dont think Garland has a clue how to defend any position besides the 1

I'd send Garland down to G League so he could get as many shots as he needed to feel comfortable shooting from the outside again. If he can't shoot from the outside, we waisted that pick.

I'd have a pretty serious talk with Sexton about what it's going to take for him to start on a good team in the NBA as well. After a promising start to the season, he's developing some bad habits.

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[Stillwater]

^ i dont think Garland has a clue how to defend any position besides the 1

I'd send Garland down to G League so he could get as many shots as he needed to feel comfortable shooting from the outside again. If he can't shoot from the outside, we waisted that pick.

I'd have a pretty serious talk with Sexton about what it's going to take for him to start on a good team in the NBA as well. After a promising start to the season, he's developing some bad habits.

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right but do they risk him taking that punch in the gut personal ? he has to know how bad hes been or maybe he knew he was rusty and still not back in shape but they forced game reps on him because of a timeline and he sees them as a overbearing employer expecting too much too soon and just shrugs it off.
i think hes been around the nba enough growing up that its almost a case of he was "in" before most rooks. are ,almost like the kid whos family ties hyped his stock too much in comparison to those who were passed over like K Nunn for example who was a beast in college, spent a year in the g league after going undrafted and now looks like the roy because he had elite skill but exactly zero nba connections.
my hope is garland is just struggling with the size and speed of nba defenders and prob wont ever be able to put up huge numbers from 3 unless teams dont stay in his grill. i think the shot will return but the form is odd no hitch just odd like the kind a kid who started practicing long shots from a early weak age might have. ive seen the same thing in young kids over past few years due to the everyone wants to be steph now bs

[jbk1234]

There it is. Beilein's presser was telling.

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[jbk1234]

More good news
https://www.si.com/nba/cavaliers/news/beilein-cavs-college/

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[gflem]

I posted about the Beilein thing before the season started. Not that he isn't qualified, just that he has never been in this situation. Kind of like the Browns unfortunately. It is way different coaching 18 to 20 year olds in college than in the NBA. Especially kids that didn't even play a quarter of the season in college and now are being expected to play rotation minutes. Not his fault, but this team is not situated to succeed. The vets are playing to the trade deadline, and the rooks have no idea what the NBA season is about, never having experienced it. And the head coach hasn't either.
Again, it is by design that the team isn't going to win. They need as many high picks as possible and can't afford to see this seasons upcoming frp convey if they happen to win a couple games too many. Certainly not the best situation for any head coach, rookie or otherwise. And by the way, when is coach going to get his first technical? I know he is a really great guy by all accounts, but he needs to get the refs attention when a call is wrong, or at least iffy. The nice guy rep isn't helping his under talented team at all.
It is nice to have a developmental coach in theory at this point of a rebuild, but a solid respected NBA coach with experience handling adult NBA players might have a better chance at providing the guidance needed for all of the players on the roster. Although the Knicks just fired Fizdale which might refute my point, but it is the Knicks so maybe not.

[jbk1234]

I posted about the Beilein thing before the season started. Not that he isn't qualified, just that he has never been in this situation. Kind of like the Browns unfortunately. It is way different coaching 18 to 20 year olds in college than in the NBA. Especially kids that didn't even play a quarter of the season in college and now are being expected to play rotation minutes. Not his fault, but this team is not situated to succeed. The vets are playing to the trade deadline, and the rooks have no idea what the NBA season is about, never having experienced it. And the head coach hasn't either.
Again, it is by design that the team isn't going to win. They need as many high picks as possible and can't afford to see this seasons upcoming frp convey if they happen to win a couple games too many. Certainly not the best situation for any head coach, rookie or otherwise. And by the way, when is coach going to get his first technical? I know he is a really great guy by all accounts, but he needs to get the refs attention when a call is wrong, or at least iffy. The nice guy rep isn't helping his under talented team at all.
It is nice to have a developmental coach in theory at this point of a rebuild, but a solid respected NBA coach with experience handling adult NBA players might have a better chance at providing the guidance needed for all of the players on the roster. Although the Knicks just fired Fizdale which might refute my point, but it is the Knicks so maybe not.

I know it's a players league, but no one outside of Love, and maybe TT, has any business doing anything other than saying yes coach. I thought we were trying to build a system and culture here. How do you give up on that 20 games in to the very first season?

It's not like we're playing better with these guys doing their own thing. We're getting run out of the gym every other night.

If young players aren't listening on a regular basis, they can have a seat. If vets in a contract year like Clarkson have an issue, their agent can go find a trade that makes sense for both teams.

When your best player asks out because your team has lost control of 19 & 20 year olds, that's an organizational failure.

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[jbk1234]

TT is not trying to hear guys complaining about Beilein

https://www.si.com/nba/cavaliers/news/cavs-dribbles-beilein-love/

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