Around The NBA: 2019-20 RESTART

[Andi Obst]

Morant is so dang good.

We’d be such a different team if he was our PG.

Well, with JV, JJJ and Clarke, MEM has a talented and big frontcourt.

Here Ja would be playing SF half the time while Dunn, LaVine or Sato dribble.

A lot of us wanted Morant, but once we got the 7th pick I was advocating for Clarke. He's looked phenomenal and would have been a much better draft pick than Coby.

Yup. Everyone who watched Clarke all season had him top 5. He had a historically great season in college last year and went more than 10 picks after Cam Reddish who just had a historically awful college season. Just shows how terrible NBA GMs still are at evaluating talent.

[dougthonus]

I'm all about getting talent and figuring out the rest later.

I think that's an awful idea if the talent you get is going to cost you way more than it's worth.

It seemed your issue before was that it might be hard to keep him. Now it's changing to he's not worth the money.

To be clear, it is a combination of all of those things.
1: Relative to his future contract, I don't think he's that talented. Like maybe a top 30 guy in the league who will likely get one of the biggest paydays.
2: There is no certainty he will stay here at any price either.
3: There's literally no meaningful upside with this move. If it works out, you're capped out and stuck at wherever this core can take you which swapping Drummond/Carter is still likely a 1st round exit territory if everything works out well. I'd rather just be awful for a few years and hope for a draft day miracle.

Let me ask you this. What are the Bulls going to do with that money that'll be better? They've openly adopted the excuse that they're not a free-agent destination. They've never signed or traded for anyone that's more talented than Drummond (I suppose you could argue Zach's more talented, but we're not exactly trading Jimmy Butler here). Last offseason we invested $27m to bring in Thad Young, Sato, Kornet, and Archi.

This is literally the worst reason to do something. You don't do something you know is bad and will be bad for likely five years because you're not sure if something better or not will come down the line later. Just being open to the possibility of something better coming down the line later is worth not doing something bad now.

I totally agree that he's not a first option, but I'll tell you what I like about him:

Okay, so for everything you like about him, are you set to give him 5/190 knowing that our org won't pay the tax unless we're a top 5 or so team in the league? Because nothing you said is relevant to my point which was that I don't want to pay him 5/190 and you might need to in order to keep him.

So do you like him that much or no? If the answer is no, then you are potentially throwing away Carter for nothing.

[Leslie Forman]

When Jimmy Butler was traded, I know the first thing I thought was "finally, that $30million a year can be spent on Andre Drummond instead."

Well, that would be a poor understanding of the context of the trade. You weren't swapping Jimmy Butler for Andre Drummond. You swapped Butler for LaVine, Lauri, and Dunn and now you'd be adding Drummond to that return. As someone who was fervently against the Butler trade, even I can admit that on paper that's a more talented base than what Paxson realistically would ever be able to build around Jimmy.

Additionally, you traded Jimmy Butler and opened up space to pay Zach LaVine $20m. But beyond that, the bulk of the $30m you're complaining about is currently being spent on Otto Porter's corpse, which before that was being spent on the right to bench Jabari Parker. We've also invested $24m Thad Young, Sato, and Kornet. I also don't need to remind you that we're wasting $8m on Felicio's meal plan. If Drummond seems worse to you than what we've been doing with our money, and what our own GM projects we'll continue to do with that money ("we're not a FA destination") then I don't know what to tell you, Leslie.

I don't know what your point is, but you basically just named a bunch of dudes who combined together as a whole aren't worth one Jimmy Butler.

[johnnyvann840]

Jaren Jackson Jr. is already becoming the player I thought he would. I thought it might take him a little longer than it is, but he's up to 23 pts, 6.2 rebs and 2 ast, 2 blks per 36. Shooting over .400 on 8 3pt FGA's per 36. TS% of over .600. And he just turned 20 a few months ago. Can't even imagine how good that kid is going to be in a couple of years. Brandon Clarke is also looking fantastic. Loved him in this last draft. Memphis is going to be a force in a few years. With Ja and that frontcourt they have some serious building blocks.

[Dominator83]

When Jimmy Butler was traded, I know the first thing I thought was "finally, that $30million a year can be spent on Andre Drummond instead."

Well, that would be a poor understanding of the context of the trade. You weren't swapping Jimmy Butler for Andre Drummond. You swapped Butler for LaVine, Lauri, and Dunn and now you'd be adding Drummond to that return. As someone who was fervently against the Butler trade, even I can admit that on paper that's a more talented base than what Paxson realistically would ever be able to build around Jimmy.

Additionally, you traded Jimmy Butler and opened up space to pay Zach LaVine $20m. But beyond that, the bulk of the $30m you're complaining about is currently being spent on Otto Porter's corpse, which before that was being spent on the right to bench Jabari Parker. We've also invested $24m Thad Young, Sato, and Kornet. I also don't need to remind you that we're wasting $8m on Felicio's meal plan. If Drummond seems worse to you than what we've been doing with our money, and what our own GM projects we'll continue to do with that money ("we're not a FA destination") then I don't know what to tell you, Leslie.

I don't know what your point is, but you basically just named a bunch of dudes who combined together as a whole aren't worth one Jimmy Butler.

I think his point is more that the money that Drummond would cost is irrelevant, because we don't do better things with our money. We've wasted $60 million on Ben Wallace, $75 million on Carlos Boozer (both being in a 60-65 million cap era no less), $37 million for one season of Dwayne wades corpse, $32 million for Felecio, who hasn't been useful for even one of those seasons (though Mayne he comes in handy next year as an expiring filler), then took on Porters $28 million a year salary, and GAVE Washington a 2nd round pick for doing the honor of letting us bail them out on that albatross contract.

For having an owner thats cheap, they sure do waste an awful lot of his money. Hence them selling an early 2nd for "equity". That off-season they wasted $20 million to have Wade and Rondo play somewhere else. So they needed to trade that Bell pick for cash so they can run to Jerry and be like " look what we got you!!!".

As mentioned, Andre Drummond would be the best player this team has ever gotten via trade or free agency. And it's probably not close.

[HomoSapien]

I think that's an awful idea if the talent you get is going to cost you way more than it's worth.

I think Drummond does more than enough to justify his salary.

To be clear, it is a combination of all of those things.
1: Relative to his future contract, I don't think he's that talented. Like maybe a top 30 guy in the league who will likely get one of the biggest paydays.
2: There is no certainty he will stay here at any price either.
3: There's literally no meaningful upside with this move. If it works out, you're capped out and stuck at wherever this core can take you which swapping Drummond/Carter is still likely a 1st round exit territory if everything works out well. I'd rather just be awful for a few years and hope for a draft day miracle.

I'm curious how many people in this thread have actually seen Drummond play outside of his few games against the Bulls. He's on my fantasy team, and because of that (and also because I'm enjoying Rose's resurgence), I've ended up watching a ton of Piston games this year. I think he's an impressive player. He's literally a 20-20 threat every time he steps on the court. To say that guy isn't "that talented" --- a guy who is a two-time All-Star and regularly leads the entire NBA in rebounds strikes me as a poor evaluation. I think he's wildly underrated, and will thrive on a more talented roster. It's not Drummond's fault that Detroit can't build a team.

This is literally the worst reason to do something. You don't do something you know is bad and will be bad for likely five years because you're not sure if something better or not will come down the line later. Just being open to the possibility of something better coming down the line later is worth not doing something bad now.

That's a really bad mischaracterization of what I said, Doug. You're the one who doesn't think he's that talented, which is why you think paying him is bad. I think he's extremely talented and I maintain what I said - he's significantly better than anyone we've traded for a signed for in the Pax era, so getting him would be a good thing. People get hung up on whether or not a single move gets you a championship, but oftentimes it takes several moves to get in that position. This would just be a step. But before we get into that, let's take a step back and discuss the state of the franchise. What exactly is the plan? We've stopped tanking (which we never successfully did) and are currently chasing a first-round exit. We're no longer in a realistic position to draft a franchise-changing player, which was the whole point of this entire rebuild. We've openly stated that we aren't a desirable free-agent destination. I know you have a higher opinion of Boylen than most, but I think he's free-agent poison. At this point, trading for an established star is our best path forward.

Okay, so for everything you like about him, are you set to give him 5/190 knowing that our org won't pay the tax unless we're a top 5 or so team in the league? Because nothing you said is relevant to my point which was that I don't want to pay him 5/190 and you might need to in order to keep him.

So do you like him that much or no? If the answer is no, then you are potentially throwing away Carter for nothing.

Yes, because Andre Drummond is a player that gets us much closer to where we need to be than Wendell Carter and whatever role player we'd sign with that salary difference ever would. Furthermore, we wouldn't be in luxury tax territory (I'm assuming we'd include either Porter or Thad & Felicio as salary fillers). If we maxed Drummond out, our payroll would project to be at about $115m (assuming Dunn isn't brought back). That'll be nearly $20m below the tax threshold. We'd be paying him and LaVine a combined $54m next year, which isn't that bad. You may not like Drummond, but I see him as a guy who could easily be a top 3 player on a contender. I think Zach could also be a top 3 player on a contender as well. We'd still have to get that 1A, and I'd advocate using Lauri, Coby, our draft picks, and Thad/Sato/Felicio's contracts to find that third star to form a big three. As a side, I don't think either Lauri or Carter are good enough to be a top 3 players on a contender.

[HomoSapien]

Well, that would be a poor understanding of the context of the trade. You weren't swapping Jimmy Butler for Andre Drummond. You swapped Butler for LaVine, Lauri, and Dunn and now you'd be adding Drummond to that return. As someone who was fervently against the Butler trade, even I can admit that on paper that's a more talented base than what Paxson realistically would ever be able to build around Jimmy.

Additionally, you traded Jimmy Butler and opened up space to pay Zach LaVine $20m. But beyond that, the bulk of the $30m you're complaining about is currently being spent on Otto Porter's corpse, which before that was being spent on the right to bench Jabari Parker. We've also invested $24m Thad Young, Sato, and Kornet. I also don't need to remind you that we're wasting $8m on Felicio's meal plan. If Drummond seems worse to you than what we've been doing with our money, and what our own GM projects we'll continue to do with that money ("we're not a FA destination") then I don't know what to tell you, Leslie.

I don't know what your point is, but you basically just named a bunch of dudes who combined together as a whole aren't worth one Jimmy Butler.

I think his point is more that the money that Drummond would cost is irrelevant, because we don't do better things with our money. We've wasted $60 million on Ben Wallace, $75 million on Carlos Boozer (both being in a 60-65 million cap era no less), $37 million for one season of Dwayne wades corpse, $32 million for Felecio, who hasn't been useful for even one of those seasons (though Mayne he comes in handy next year as an expiring filler), then took on Porters $28 million a year salary, and GAVE Washington a 2nd round pick for doing the honor of letting us bail them out on that albatross contract.

For having an owner thats cheap, they sure do waste an awful lot of his money. Hence them selling an early 2nd for "equity". That off-season they wasted $20 million to have Wade and Rondo play somewhere else. So they needed to trade that Bell pick for cash so they can run to Jerry and be like " look what we got you!!!".

As mentioned, Andre Drummond would be the best player this team has ever gotten via trade or free agency. And it's probably not close.

Thanks, you covered it.

I'll add that I don't understand the point of bringing up Butler. That trade is over and done with. From a talent stand-point, we've already lost. We're not getting anyone better than or as good as him. That ship sailed when we missed out on Luka, Young, Morant, and Zion.

[DASMACKDOWN]

I think you guys are trying to impose logic concerning the Bulls and players. Not a good idea.

You cant say things like Detroit doesn't know how to build a team, and then use the Bulls as the team that will somehow free Drummond?

We would essentially be Detroit with a slightly higher ceiling. Which means bad. That's not going to be good enough.

And not to rant, but why does everyone always gloss over us getting Pau Gasol in free agency? Yeah the Pau Gasol that was a 2 time all-star in his 2 seasons with us that avg 17pts 11 rebs

That is a bigtime get and a big time return.

[HomoSapien]

I think you guys are trying to impose logic concerning the Bulls and players. Not a good idea.

You cant say things like Detroit doesn't know how to build a team, and then use the Bulls as the team that will somehow free Drummond?

Somewhat fair, but I'll counter by saying that Paxson's teams have been to the playoffs 11 times since he took over. I have my issues with him, but he's shown over and over again that he can build a playoff team. I also think this Bulls team would easily be the most talented team Drummond's been part of so I disagree that our ceiling is only slightly higher than Detroit's. Our ceiling is as high as LaVine and Lauri's potential, and if that's not good enough they're both tradeable assets.

And not to rant, but why does everyone always gloss over us getting Pau Gasol in free agency? Yeah the Pau Gasol that was a 2 time all-star in his 2 seasons with us that avg 17pts 11 rebs

That is a bigtime get and a big time return.

Because he was 34 when we signed him. I mean he was great and everything, but it was always going to be a short-term move. If a 34-year-old player is your best signing, that in itself sort of says a lot.

[Taikuri]

20 blocks by Lakers in last night's game. I wonder how rare of a stat that is? They certainly have the players for that though.

8 blocks - Anthony Davis
6 blocks - Javale McGee
5 blocks - Dwight Howard

It surely makes winning easier when you have that much rim protection.

[dougthonus]

Yes, because Andre Drummond is a player that gets us much closer to where we need to be than Wendell Carter and whatever role player we'd sign with that salary difference ever would.

All other things aside, I just disagree with the assessment that Drummond is worth 5/190. You might need to make him a top 5 paid player in the NBA to keep him, and you already said he's not a #1 option on a team. I think you're radically overpaying him.

You may not like Drummond, but I see him as a guy who could easily be a top 3 player on a contender.

He needs to be a top 1 guy to justify the contract that may be required to keep him. You can't pay your #3 guy 5/190 if you're a team that is only paying the tax when it's a top 5 team. I also could see him being a #3 (easily) or a #2 in a 2a/2b situation.

If you could just get Drummond for paying the salary without giving up possibly the most valuable asset on the team, I would think it is highly questionable. To give up the best asset the Bulls have (sad as that is), for the opportunity to pay him 10M a year more than I think he's worth is just too much for me.

From a trade perspective, I doubt it would cost anywhere near that much to get Drummond if Detroit doesn't want to pay him.

[DASMACKDOWN]

I think you guys are trying to impose logic concerning the Bulls and players. Not a good idea.

You cant say things like Detroit doesn't know how to build a team, and then use the Bulls as the team that will somehow free Drummond?

Somewhat fair, but I'll counter by saying that Paxson's teams have been to the playoffs 11 times since he took over. I have my issues with him, but he's shown over and over again that he can build a playoff team. I also think this Bulls team would easily be the most talented team Drummond's been part of so I disagree that our ceiling is only slightly higher than Detroit's. Our ceiling is as high as LaVine and Lauri's potential, and if that's not good enough they're both tradeable assets.

My problem is, its the wrong era and the wrong time. Drummond is a tremendous player. But his style of ball is a dying breed and NBA teams just dont put much stock in it anymore.

Its like Dwight Howard or Hassan Whiteside. Statwise, they are great.

But if you are paying 150+ million for those types of players, you will be in a world of trouble. Notice how Whiteside whom I consider the same type of player as Drummond has Portland in a 2019 Miami like state of going nowhere. That despite Dame and CJ playing to their same levels. And Whiteside avg 15 and 14 while leading the league in blocks.

I think we would be far worse position paying 190 mil for Drummond with our current roster, then to have a 20 year old WCJ whom we can mold into a future proof 5 and probably pay like 80-100 mil tops in 3 years.

But more importantly, I don't think what fixes the Bulls is a better version of Wendell Carter Jr.

We need wings. Or at least healthy good ones. We need a starting level point guard. We need a quality head coach.

So essentially if we still need what I just mentioned, having and paying Drummond, only makes that job even more difficult.

[Chi town]

Jaren Jackson Jr. is already becoming the player I thought he would. I thought it might take him a little longer than it is, but he's up to 23 pts, 6.2 rebs and 2 ast, 2 blks per 36. Shooting over .400 on 8 3pt FGA's per 36. TS% of over .600. And he just turned 20 a few months ago. Can't even imagine how good that kid is going to be in a couple of years. Brandon Clarke is also looking fantastic. Loved him in this last draft. Memphis is going to be a force in a few years. With Ja and that frontcourt they have some serious building blocks.

Him and Luka were my guys.

Ja has helped Jaren a lot. A real PG would help WCJ a lot too.

[rtblues]

RE: Podcasts - NBA / Bulls
Here are my personal rankings for the TOP Basketball podcasts of 2019. Two categories, NBA & Bulls

NBA PODCASTS:
1. RealGM Radio with Danny Leroux
2. Hollinger and Duncan
3. Dunc'd On Basketball NBA Podcast
4. The Ringer NBA Show
5. The Crossover NBA Show with Chris Mannix
6. Game Theory Podcast
7. The Woj Pod
8. Fastbreak Breakfast Basketball NBA Podcast
9. The NBA Podcast
10. Above The Rim NBA Podcast
11. No Dunks
--------------------------------------------------
BULLS PODCASTS:
1. Cash Considerations
2. No Zones with Tony Gil
3. Bulls HQ
4. The Rebuild-A-Bull Podcast Chicago Bulls Pod
5. Chicago Bullseye* - *Fred gets in at 5 here simply for his pure rushes of optimism during these bad days in Bullsville
6. Bulls Talk Podcast
7. Bulls Gold
8. Locked On Bulls
9. Bulls Outsiders
10. Bulls Beat* *- The King-Daddy of them all drops down since he is on a pause of sorts, with only sporadic uploads these days.

[Ice Man]

But more importantly, I don't think what fixes the Bulls is a better version of Wendell Carter Jr.

We need wings. Or at least healthy good ones. We need a starting level point guard. We need a quality head coach.

My priorities for the Bulls would be -

1) Get an All Star two way wing
2) Get a second All Star two way wing
3) Then fill out the roster

I wouldn't fuss over my center or power forward (unless he's a point #4, like Giannis) until I took care of items #1 and #2. Probably not even the point guard position, unless that point guard was big enough to guard wings.

Of course there are exceptions. If LeBron fills my item #1 slot, OK I will take the best non-point #4 in the league for my second slot. Sometimes rules are to be broken.

[Dresden]

Jaren Jackson Jr. is already becoming the player I thought he would. I thought it might take him a little longer than it is, but he's up to 23 pts, 6.2 rebs and 2 ast, 2 blks per 36. Shooting over .400 on 8 3pt FGA's per 36. TS% of over .600. And he just turned 20 a few months ago. Can't even imagine how good that kid is going to be in a couple of years. Brandon Clarke is also looking fantastic. Loved him in this last draft. Memphis is going to be a force in a few years. With Ja and that frontcourt they have some serious building blocks.

I don't know if he's that far ahead of Wendell. Wendell's PER is only 1 point behind JJJ's, and his true shooting % is about the same. Jackson is a far better scorer, but is only rebounding half of what Wendell is.

[HomoSapien]

Dwight Howard's going to be in this year's dunk contest. I love that. He was great in it before and it's good to see him back in it. Would love it if Carter and LaVine join him. Let's get a bunch of past champions in this and make it fun.

[ZOMG]

An NBA horror story:

Blake Griffin will visit a specialist in Los Angeles this week because of his ailing left knee and could undergo season-ending surgery.

Griffin will have two more years and approximately $75 million left on his deal.

[DASMACKDOWN]

An NBA horror story:

Blake Griffin will visit a specialist in Los Angeles this week because of his ailing left knee and could undergo season-ending surgery.

Griffin will have two more years and approximately $75 million left on his deal.

And this news is probably scaring the Pelicans to death also.

[dice]

RE: Podcasts - NBA / Bulls
Here are my personal rankings for the TOP Basketball podcasts of 2019. Two categories, NBA & Bulls

NBA PODCASTS:
1. RealGM Radio with Danny Leroux
2. Hollinger and Duncan
3. Dunc'd On Basketball NBA Podcast
4. The Ringer NBA Show
5. The Crossover NBA Show with Chris Mannix
6. Game Theory Podcast
7. The Woj Pod
8. Fastbreak Breakfast Basketball NBA Podcast
9. The NBA Podcast
10. Above The Rim NBA Podcast
11. No Dunks
--------------------------------------------------
BULLS PODCASTS:
1. Cash Considerations
2. No Zones with Tony Gil
3. Bulls HQ
4. The Rebuild-A-Bull Podcast Chicago Bulls Pod
5. Chicago Bullseye* - *Fred gets in at 5 here simply for his pure rushes of optimism during these bad days in Bullsville
6. Bulls Talk Podcast
7. Bulls Gold
8. Locked On Bulls
9. Bulls Outsiders
10. Bulls Beat* *- The King-Daddy of them all drops down since he is on a pause of sorts, with only sporadic uploads these days.

damn, somebody's a real nba podcast junkie