MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened

[Perseus1966]

I don't think anyone is denying his skills are elite. He averages 38ppg, so clearly he is an all-time tremendous scorer.

Harden just has a legacy of flopping and shrinking in the clutch which impacts how he is perceived. You innately have more respect for a guy like Giannis than for Harden due to who they are as people and in how they carry their team when it matters.

Sports is a metaphor for life, which is why we identify with it so much. Which player do you want on your side and whom do you want to follow into battle-- Giannis or Harden? As long as both are putting up amazing stats (and the Bucks stay a 60 win team) then it's really not much of a contest.

Giannis is a flopper himself, he screams at every little touch from the opponent when he is the one that charges into him and pushes off with his arm. I'm not saying Harden is a best shooting guard ever or something, I'm just saying he is a regular season MVP. It's not like Giannis is a champion or something, he is a regular season stat stuffer that has a huge protection from the refs. He is more similar to Harden than you think.

On the Christmas game he got poked so hard in the eye he couldn't see for the rest of the game.

No foul, not a review and a tech for Giannis for complaining.

In the game against the Spurs he got wacked so hard in the face he was dazed for a few seconds.

Foul, review, common foul.

Huge protection.

These 2 fouls in Spurs game were very cruel,imagine if harden or worst doncic were the victims...

[DutchManDanFan]

You're not even the most iconic side in London.

Which club is more iconic in London?

[bballgod07]

Giannis is a flopper himself, he screams at every little touch from the opponent when he is the one that charges into him and pushes off with his arm. I'm not saying Harden is a best shooting guard ever or something, I'm just saying he is a regular season MVP. It's not like Giannis is a champion or something, he is a regular season stat stuffer that has a huge protection from the refs. He is more similar to Harden than you think.

On the Christmas game he got poked so hard in the eye he couldn't see for the rest of the game.

No foul, not a review and a tech for Giannis for complaining.

In the game against the Spurs he got wacked so hard in the face he was dazed for a few seconds.

Foul, review, common foul.

Huge protection.

These 2 fouls in Spurs game were very cruel,imagine if harden or worst doncic were the victims...

Yeah, imagine getting swiped on your eyes with blood coming out and didn't get a foul.

[freethedevil]

You're not even the most iconic side in London.

Which club is more iconic in London?

Watch on YouTube

[DutchManDanFan]

You're not even the most iconic side in London.

Which club is more iconic in London?

Watch on YouTube

Arsenal: 13 league titles, 5 in the 30's, last one in 2004.
Chelsea: 6 League titles, 1 in 1955 and 5 since 2005.

Chelsea is better since Russian money came in. Nothing iconic about that.


Back to hoops.

[limbo]

Arsenal FC have been playing competitively in inter-Euro club competitions since 1963 and they have won exactly two cups in 57 years. Zero Champions League titles.

Joke club.

[90sAllDecade]

Harden, like other all time greats has had good and bad series in the playoffs, Giannis is a great player and will have a great career but let's not act like Giannis didn't fail against Kawhi last year in the playoffs, by that logic he shrinked in the clutch.

Again, Harden has had his good and bad series as well, but let's not act like Giannis hasn't done it either.

However, I think like Harden, players evolve and both have gotten better.

Harden has definitely had has flaws in the past and worked for fouls but Giannis also flops as well at times for fouls:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MkeBucks/comments/dqdbof/giannis_tries_to_flop_and_its_goddamn_adorable/

And was accused of a dirty play here:
https://www.barstoolsports.com/post/giannis-antetokounmpo-with-the-dirtiest-play-of-all-time

He may have a great series this year and Harden may as well, I'm not a hater I actually do like and respect Giannis as a great player, but if we're going to judge one player we should also fairly judge the other.

But again, both players have gotten better, I like them both and we'll see what happens this year as they are playing great.

[DutchManDanFan]

Harden has definitely had has flaws in the past and worked for fouls but Giannis also flops as well at times for fouls:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MkeBucks/comments/dqdbof/giannis_tries_to_flop_and_its_goddamn_adorable/

Try to keep on your feet from that position and some contact. You won't succeed.

And was accused of a dirty play here:
https://www.barstoolsports.com/post/giannis-antetokounmpo-with-the-dirtiest-play-of-all-time

All Bucks fans love him for this.

[User_friendly]

I legitimately feel bad for Harden and his fans for how many 2nd place MVP finishes he'll have by the end of his career. This year is looking like #4 despite his phenomenal play.

Luckily, I think we will get to the point where MVP shares will be a bigger part of the discussion in comparing players. Harden has a chance to be top 5-10 all-time in MVP shares by the end of his career.

He'll win it this year. They will be a top 2 seed, possibly number 1. It will be impossible to deny him then. He is just the most unstoppable player in the game right now. Numbers are historic, he will average most points in the modern era, and he will break Steph Curry's record for three pointers in a season. He is more efficient despite scoring more.

I agree that if Houston can get to the 1st seed with a comparable record to Milwaukee, then Harden's chances are much greater. Both are having insanely good individual seasons, so team record will probably dictate who wins.

I agree that both are the ones who deserve it most, (by the moment).
I agree that it's very debatable who is the most dominant of the two.
(And I have to say that for me, the most astonishing thing is how the hell can Harden, one time and another, get those shots, and you can do NOTHING. But that doesn't make him more dominant than Giannis; if ever, more skill-dominant).

But what makes me stunned is how the teams wins is an important measure to decide an MVP. With all the range of advance stats available; aren't there more accurate ways to assess the impact?.
Are those stats so useless that instead, people have to use wins to decide, while ignoring that a player impact on wins is heavily affected by different rosters, teammates injuries, coaches, conference, etc.?

[DutchManDanFan]

But what makes me stunned is how the teams wins is an important measure to decide an MVP. With all the range of advance stats available; aren't there more accurate ways to assess the impact?.
Are those stats so useless that instead, people have to use wins to decide, while ignoring that a player impact on wins is heavily affected by different rosters, teammates injuries, coaches, conference, etc.?

It is impossible to compare the rosters surrounding MVP candidates. Because of the impact the MVP candidate has on the way the players around him are selected and how they play.

What you can do is imagine what the Bucks record is with Harden in stead of Giannis or the Rockets record with Giannis for Harden. But I don't think that's fair for Harden.

[Patches Perry]

He'll win it this year. They will be a top 2 seed, possibly number 1. It will be impossible to deny him then. He is just the most unstoppable player in the game right now. Numbers are historic, he will average most points in the modern era, and he will break Steph Curry's record for three pointers in a season. He is more efficient despite scoring more.

I agree that if Houston can get to the 1st seed with a comparable record to Milwaukee, then Harden's chances are much greater. Both are having insanely good individual seasons, so team record will probably dictate who wins.

I agree that both are the ones who deserve it most, (by the moment).
I agree that it's very debatable who is the most dominant of the two.
(And I have to say that for me, the most astonishing thing is how the hell can Harden, one time and another, get those shots, and you can do NOTHING. But that doesn't make him more dominant than Giannis; if ever, more skill-dominant).

But what makes me stunned is how the teams wins is an important measure to decide an MVP. With all the range of advance stats available; aren't there more accurate ways to assess the impact?.
Are those stats so useless that instead, people have to use wins to decide, while ignoring that a player impact on wins is heavily affected by different rosters, teammates injuries, coaches, conference, etc.?

I agree that the analysis on individual impact is pretty low resolution. The case for MVP is generally kept to something casual fans can easily digest, passes the eye test and is intuitive based on how we judge players as a basketball community. I would love a basketball community that separates team success from individual impact, but that's a conversation that transcends the MVP award. The argument for Michael Jordan being the GOAT is never about his individual impact (which in itself justifies his place in the conversation), it's always about 6 rings, 6 out of 6, etc. The best player on the team that wins the championship, or finals MVP, is generally given a huge boost in perceived impact and often thought to be the best player in the league even if it's clearly not the case. The metric of team success is so embedded in our basketball psyche that it would be counter-intuitive for it not to be part of the MVP criteria. I, like you, would prefer better analysis of individual impact across the board, but that's a pretty large shift in how we currently operate imo.

[The Lazy Potato]

Luka shouldn't have so many votes with his team being 6th seed in the West..

[greekbuck34]

Luka shouldn't have so many votes with his team being 6th seed in the West..

Nah.
They started dropping after the beginning of this vote due to serious injuries(Luka/KP) and they shouldn't be up there to begin with anyway.

[whatever_]

I feel like Giannis is the Cristiano Ronaldo of basket.

Everybody respects him, but we all know Messi is just the better player.

[Freighttrain]

I feel like Giannis is the Cristiano Ronaldo of basket.

Everybody respects him, but we all know Messi is just the better player.

So he's one of the 2 best players of all time? Giannis hasn't won anything yet, he's more Neymar if anything.

[User_friendly]

But what makes me stunned is how the teams wins is an important measure to decide an MVP. With all the range of advance stats available; aren't there more accurate ways to assess the impact?.
Are those stats so useless that instead, people have to use wins to decide, while ignoring that a player impact on wins is heavily affected by different rosters, teammates injuries, coaches, conference, etc.?

It is impossible to compare the rosters surrounding MVP candidates. Because of the impact the MVP candidate has on the way the players around him are selected and how they play.

What you can do is imagine what the Bucks record is with Harden in stead of Giannis or the Rockets record with Giannis for Harden. But I don't think that's fair for Harden.

I understand, but If you can't discount the rosters then don't count the wins to extrapolate the main player's impact.
Nevertheless, it could deserve more credit try to assess their impact by excluding them in their rosters, but how do you do it, unless they are a lot of time injured?

[User_friendly]

I agree that if Houston can get to the 1st seed with a comparable record to Milwaukee, then Harden's chances are much greater. Both are having insanely good individual seasons, so team record will probably dictate who wins.

I agree that both are the ones who deserve it most, (by the moment).
I agree that it's very debatable who is the most dominant of the two.
(And I have to say that for me, the most astonishing thing is how the hell can Harden, one time and another, get those shots, and you can do NOTHING. But that doesn't make him more dominant than Giannis; if ever, more skill-dominant).

But what makes me stunned is how the teams wins is an important measure to decide an MVP. With all the range of advance stats available; aren't there more accurate ways to assess the impact?.
Are those stats so useless that instead, people have to use wins to decide, while ignoring that a player impact on wins is heavily affected by different rosters, teammates injuries, coaches, conference, etc.?

I agree that the analysis on individual impact is pretty low resolution. The case for MVP is generally kept to something casual fans can easily digest, passes the eye test and is intuitive based on how we judge players as a basketball community. I would love a basketball community that separates team success from individual impact, but that's a conversation that transcends the MVP award. The argument for Michael Jordan being the GOAT is never about his individual impact (which in itself justifies his place in the conversation), it's always about 6 rings, 6 out of 6, etc. The best player on the team that wins the championship, or finals MVP, is generally given a huge boost in perceived impact and often thought to be the best player in the league even if it's clearly not the case. The metric of team success is so embedded in our basketball psyche that it would be counter-intuitive for it not to be part of the MVP criteria. I, like you, would prefer better analysis of individual impact across the board, but that's a pretty large shift in how we currently operate imo.

Good explanation to what could be happenning. But I miss at least a little more professionality by the "experts"/ex-players trying to justify some player's impacts higher than others, rather than the lazy (yes, i'm looking at you, Potato ), "because team A is higher seed than team B", etc.

[igorbianch]

I feel like Giannis is the Cristiano Ronaldo of basket.

Everybody respects him, but we all know Messi is just the better player.

So he's one of the 2 best players of all time? Giannis hasn't won anything yet, he's more Neymar if anything.

Neymar already won a Champions league and a Libertadores...

[BloodNinja]

I feel like Giannis is the Cristiano Ronaldo of basket.

Everybody respects him, but we all know Messi is just the better player.

So he's one of the 2 best players of all time? Giannis hasn't won anything yet, he's more Neymar if anything.

Neymar already won a Champions league and a Libertadores...

Neymar is closest to Harden with all his diving and flopping

[Coach Carter]

I feel like Giannis is the Cristiano Ronaldo of basket.

Everybody respects him, but we all know Messi is just the better player.

So he's one of the 2 best players of all time? Giannis hasn't won anything yet, he's more Neymar if anything.

I wouldn't say ronaldo is one of the 2 best players of all time. This is something that the younger generation have accepted because they haven't seen the greats of the past ala pele, maradona. This is only fitting for messi. You could put him in the same discussion. Ronaldo isn't technically gifted enough. He's one of the best scorers of all time though. Think modern day Gerd Müller. Both neymar and messi are a lot more skilled than ronaldo. Ronaldo is a freak athlete so i can see how he relates to giannis. Both are skilled enough and combined with their freakishness, work ethic, they dominate.