Peaks only- Kobe Bryant vs Dirk Nowitzki

[Showstopper21]

Which player peaked higher and why?

[Dr Spaceman]

I do think there is a good argument for Kobe but I’d side with Dirk as I think his iso game, foul drawing, off ball play and general efficiency make him more potent as an offensive anchor overall and in the playoffs especially.

[Colbinii]

Great thread and comparison.

Statistically speaking they were similar.

Advanced Box-score Statistics

Spoiler:

2009 RS Bryant: 24.4 PER, 56.1 TS% [+1.5 Rel Lg Avg], 12.7 WS, 4.5 BPM
2011 RS Dirk: 23.4 PER, 61.2 TS% [+7.1 Rel Lg Avg], 11.1 WS, 3.8 BPM

2009 PS Bryant: 26.8 PER, 56.4 TS% [*], 4.7 WS, 7.5 BPM
2011 PS Dirk: 25.2 PER, 60.9 TS% [*], 3.6 WS, 3.8 BPM

*Bryant ----- The Los Angeles Lakers and Kobe Bryant faced defenses with an average eFG Defense of .483 [Which average to the 6.9th ranked eFG% defense in 2009]
*Nowitzki ----- The Dallas Mavericks and Dirk Nowitzki faced defenses with an average eFG Defense of .490 [Which averages to the 11th ranked eFG% defense in 2011]

Neither Kobe nor Dirk had one of their most impressive box-score, statistical seasons in their respective peak seasons. Both of them were nearing the ends of their primes while both had refined skill-sets and experience at this point [Bryant and Dirk both with over 37000 career minutes] and each outside of their physical peaks in terms of athleticism.

Moving onto shooting, Dirk was absolutely unstoppable from mid-range this season. In fact, this may be the single greatest mid-range scoring season of all-time. Unfortunately we do not have the access to the precise shooting profile of Michael Jordan or Jerry West at their respective peaks, but from what I can recall Dirk had the best one since Basketball Reference started tracking shooting profiles in the 2000-2001 NBA Season. Dirk was able to maintain a 49.2 FG% on shots from 10-16 feet and a blistering 51.9% on deep 2's [the most "inefficient shot" in basketball they say]. Dirk's jump-shot in general was unsurpassed with an eFG% of 51.4%. It is worth noting he was assisted on a significant majority of his deep 2 point shots [84.3%] but this number is far higher than his shorter mid-range shots [being assisted on 42.7% of those; 96.6% of 3 point shots FWIW].

Kobe Bryant was, in his own right, a tremendous mid-range scorer as well. He was no slouch as he posted a 44.9 FG% on shots from 10-16 feet and a similar 43.4 FG% on deeper 2 point attempts. Unlike DIrk, Kobe was asked to create many more of his attempts on his own, with Assist percentages of 24.3%, 32.9% and then 60% as we move from short mid-range, deep mid-range and beyond the 3 point area respectively. Bryant's eFG% on jump shots as a whole was 46.2% [lower than Dirk's 51.4%] but Bryant was also assisted on nearly half as many shots [34.5% to 63.7%].

It is up to you to parse through the difference in Assisted Percentage and draw conclusions from the data. Dirk was able to work off-ball more with perimeter oriented play makers in Kidd, Terry and Barea [a combined 16 assists per game in 84 minutes to just 5.9 turnovers] while Bryant had a majority of his accompanied play making from a combination of areas with Gasol, Fisher, Walton and Odom averaging 12 assists in 115 minutes per game.

Could Dirk have taken on a larger play making role for his team as Bryant did or could Kobe benefit from the perimeter players like Kidd and Terry in the same way Dirk did?

Well, from 02-10 Dirk averaged 2.9 Assists per game while Bryant from 01-08 averaged 5.3 Assists per game. I don't think we ever saw Bryant play [in his prime] next to a perimeter play maker at the likes of Kidd nor Barea except for Nash in 2013 [granted Kobe was on the decline at this point] but Kobe's assisted shots was actually lower in this season than in the 2009 season.

I think the answer to this 2-part question is a resounding "no" until proven otherwise. Bryant didn't want or need another perimeter play maker around him while in his prime due to his ability to make difficult shots in the mid-range on his own accord and Dirk didn't possess the ability to resemble Kobe's play making from the perimeter.

All in all, both rosters were balanced perfectly around their respective stars. Kobe was able to play next to a High BBIQ Big man who could be a secondary play maker, score efficiently and operate in multiple positions offensively which allowed Kobe to utilize his diverse offensive skill-set to operate in offensive positions/areas to attack a defenses weakness. Dirk on the other hand was able to play next to high BBIQ perimeter players who knew how to utilize Dirk's length and lethal mid-range game.

The Lakers with Bryant were able to maintain a 116.1 Offensive Rating with Bryant on the floor [which coincided with 85.6% of those minutes with Gasol]. Dirk and the Mavericks maintained a 113.6 Offensive Rating with Dirk on the floor [64% of these minutes shared with Kidd and 60.3% of the minutes with Terry]. The difference in Offensive Rating [2.5 Points per 100] seems relatively similar [especially given the supporting casts around Dirk and Kobe respectively].

[I really wanted to do a player compare using NBA.com Tools but the website does not work with two retired players as far as I know, even though the data acquired and utilized in the tool goes back to the mid-2000's. So I can not use the tool to compare Dirk/Kidd unfortunately or Dirk/Terry, but I can do Dirk/Chandler]

**According to the NBA.com Dirk's on-court defensive rating does not drop off a cliff without Chandler in 2011. With Chandler/Dirk the Mavericks are at 99.2 and without Chandler [with Dirk] the Mavericks are at 100.5. Unfortunately we can no do Bryant with anyone on the team. If anyone can figure out a way to do this that would be awesome.

[70sFan]

I'm higher on Kobe than I used to be and this is really good comparison. I think that Dirk was even better scorer than Bryant, but Kobe has clear edge on playmaking. I also think that it's easier to build great defensive teams around Kobe, because he's more versatile defender with fewer weaknesses. Dirk basically had to play with good rim protector, otherwise your team would struggle defensively.

I'm not sure, it's reasonably close comparison. I might take Kobe in most teams, but Dirk's celling is probably as high if not higher.

[Odinn21]

I do think there is a good argument for Kobe but I’d side with Dirk as I think his iso game, foul drawing, off ball play and general efficiency make him more potent as an offensive anchor overall and in the playoffs especially.

How's that? Dirk was known for being soft before his ring in 2011. He had only 3 deep runs in the playoffs and he was exposed by smaller SFs. Sure, Kobe had his low moments as well but I think it's hard to say Dirk was a more reliable playoffs force than Kobe...

[70sFan]

I do think there is a good argument for Kobe but I’d side with Dirk as I think his iso game, foul drawing, off ball play and general efficiency make him more potent as an offensive anchor overall and in the playoffs especially.

How's that? Dirk was known for being soft before his ring in 2011. He had only 3 deep runs in the playoffs and he was exposed by smaller SFs. Sure, Kobe had his low moments as well but I think it's hard to say Dirk was a more reliable playoffs force than Kobe...

Dirk was more reliable scorer in playoffs than Kobe by most statistical measurements. Whether that makes him better is up to debate, but outside of 2007 nothing suggests that Dirk is questionable playoffs performer.

[No-more-rings]

I do think there is a good argument for Kobe but I’d side with Dirk as I think his iso game, foul drawing, off ball play and general efficiency make him more potent as an offensive anchor overall and in the playoffs especially.

Kobe has a significant advantage as a passer over Dirk, and when locked in could probably have more impact on defense. Also, being better off ball doesn’t necessarily equate as an advantage in a direct comparison like this.

[Dr Spaceman]

I do think there is a good argument for Kobe but I’d side with Dirk as I think his iso game, foul drawing, off ball play and general efficiency make him more potent as an offensive anchor overall and in the playoffs especially.

How's that? Dirk was known for being soft before his ring in 2011. He had only 3 deep runs in the playoffs and he was exposed by smaller SFs. Sure, Kobe had his low moments as well but I think it's hard to say Dirk was a more reliable playoffs force than Kobe...

Dirks 2006 series against the Spurs is as good or better than Any kobe played in his career. The idea that he wasn’ta playoff killer until 11 is just wrong.

[Dr Spaceman]

I do think there is a good argument for Kobe but I’d side with Dirk as I think his iso game, foul drawing, off ball play and general efficiency make him more potent as an offensive anchor overall and in the playoffs especially.

Kobe has a significant advantage as a passer over Dirk, and when locked in could probably have more impact on defense. Also, being better off ball doesn’t necessarily equate as an advantage in a direct comparison like this.

I’m not sure that Kobe’s passing actually created more opportunities than Dirks screening and gravity.

[No-more-rings]

I do think there is a good argument for Kobe but I’d side with Dirk as I think his iso game, foul drawing, off ball play and general efficiency make him more potent as an offensive anchor overall and in the playoffs especially.

Kobe has a significant advantage as a passer over Dirk, and when locked in could probably have more impact on defense. Also, being better off ball doesn’t necessarily equate as an advantage in a direct comparison like this.

I’m not sure that Kobe’s passing actually created more opportunities than Dirks screening and gravity.

Well unless you have data on i’m not going to just take your word and assume Dirk created more.

What we do know is Kobe had to be their top scorer and playmaker. Dirk has always had great passing point guards like Nash, then Kidd afterwards when Kobe just had Fisher. So that’s why i tend to give Kobe an offensive edge.

[eminence]

I'll go Kobe, think his style works in a wider variety of settings, Dirk had some pretty regular playoff struggles earlier in his career. Either is a fine choice though.

[Dr Spaceman]

Kobe has a significant advantage as a passer over Dirk, and when locked in could probably have more impact on defense. Also, being better off ball doesn’t necessarily equate as an advantage in a direct comparison like this.

I’m not sure that Kobe’s passing actually created more opportunities than Dirks screening and gravity.

Well unless you have data on i’m not going to just take your word and assume Dirk created more.

What we do know is Kobe had to be their top scorer and playmaker. Dirk has always had great passing point guards like Nash, then Kidd afterwards when Kobe just had Fisher. So that’s why i tend to give Kobe an offensive edge.

Are you for real? Gasol and Odom are two of the best front court passers ever and provided Kobe more than enough passing support (9.3 assists per 100 combined in 09 and 10.0 in 10).

[Colbinii]

How's that? Dirk was known for being soft before his ring in 2011.

Kobe is known for being the best closer since Jordan as well. I'm not sure if using baseless "Player X is known as Y in the media" is an argument or stance you should be taking on a basketball forum with the depth of posters we have here; including yourself.

He had only 3 deep runs in the playoffs

2001: Dallas loses to a much better San Antonio team in the Conference Semi's.
2002: Dallas loses to a much better Sacramento team in the Conference Semi's.
2003: Dirk Gets hurt and Dallas loses in 6 to a San Antonio Spurs team with Peak Duncan [A better player than Dirk].
2004: Dallas loses to a better Sacramento team in the 1st round.
2005: Dallas loses to a better Phoenix team in the Conference Semi's.
2006: Dallas loses to Peak Wade and the Heat in the NBA Finals.
2007: This is a bad one.
2008: Dallas loses to a better Hornets team with [arguably] peak CP3 in round 1.
2009: Dallas loses to a much better Nuggets team with Peak Carmelo after beating a better Spurs team in round 1.
2010: Dallas loses to a much better San Antonio team in round 1.
2011: NBA Finals Victory
2012: Ran it back with an already over-the-hill roster, loses in round 1 to a significantly better Thunder team.

Sure, he had 3 deep runs, but you will be hard pressed to find a better conference over a 12-year stretch better than the West from 2001-2012.

and he was exposed by smaller SFs.

Not really. When was this exactly?

Sure, Kobe had his low moments as well but I think it's hard to say Dirk was a more reliable playoffs force than Kobe...

I don't.

From 2001-2012 Dirk averaged 25.9 points on 58.4 TS% in the post-season. During this stretch Dirk shot ~46% from mid-range and 38.4% from 3. His Individual Ortg/Drtg splits paint him at 118/107 [+11] during that span.

From 2000-2012 Kobe averaged 27.7 points on 54.3 TS% in the post-season. During this stretch Kobe shot ~42% from mid-range and 33.4% from 3. His individual Ortg/Drtg splits paint him at 110/106 [+4] during that span.

[Dr Spaceman]

I'll go Kobe, think his style works in a wider variety of settings, Dirk had some pretty regular playoff struggles earlier in his career. Either is a fine choice though.

Could you provide some examples?

[Dr Spaceman]

Food for thought:

Dirk in elimination games throughout his career

2001 Game 5 vs San Antonio: 42/18 on 66% true shooting
02 game 5 vs Sac 32/12/3 on 60% true shooting
03 G7 vs Portland 31/11 on 66%
03 G7 vs Sac 30/19 on 69%
04 G5 vs Sac 30/14 on 60%
05 G7 vs HOU 14/14 on 42.1% (+26)
05 G6 vs PHX 28/13 on 48%
06 G7 vs SAS 37/15 on 69%
06 G6 vs MIA 29/15 on 57%
07 G6 vs GSW 8/10 on 27%
08 G5 vs NOH 22/13 on 46%
09 vs DEN 32/10 on 59%
10 vs SAS 33/5 on 70%

That is a staggeringly good performance record in the biggest games. The idea that Dirk was a playoff disappointment before 11 is wild.

[Fadeaway_J]

Food for thought:

Dirk in elimination games throughout his career

2001 Game 5 vs San Antonio: 42/18 on 66% true shooting
02 game 5 vs Sac 32/12/3 on 60% true shooting
03 G7 vs Portland 31/11 on 66%
03 G7 vs Sac 30/19 on 69%
04 G5 vs Sac 30/14 on 60%
05 G7 vs HOU 14/14 on 42.1% (+26)
05 G6 vs PHX 28/13 on 48%
06 G7 vs SAS 37/15 on 69%
06 G6 vs MIA 29/15 on 57%
07 G6 vs GSW 8/10 on 27%
08 G5 vs NOH 22/13 on 46%
09 vs DEN 32/10 on 59%
10 vs SAS 33/5 on 70%

That is a staggeringly good performance record in the biggest games. The idea that Dirk was a playoff disappointment before 11 is wild.

Yeah, my recollection at the time was that the 2006 Finals and then that We Believe series were out of line with Dirk's previous playoff performances.

I still lean Kobe because of the creation/playmaking gap. Pau and Odom definitely helped with their passing from the post, but the ability to generate good looks for others off the bounce is something else entirely and Kobe was the only one doing that on those Laker teams. That may come down to what I value more from a #1 option though - I tend to favour guys who are at least above average passers.

[Odinn21]

How's that? Dirk was known for being soft before his ring in 2011.

Kobe is known for being the best closer since Jordan as well. I'm not sure if using baseless "Player X is known as Y in the media" is an argument or stance you should be taking on a basketball forum with the depth of posters we have here; including yourself.

He had only 3 deep runs in the playoffs

2001: Dallas loses to a much better San Antonio team in the Conference Semi's.
2002: Dallas loses to a much better Sacramento team in the Conference Semi's.
2003: Dirk Gets hurt and Dallas loses in 6 to a San Antonio Spurs team with Peak Duncan [A better player than Dirk].
2004: Dallas loses to a better Sacramento team in the 1st round.
2005: Dallas loses to a better Phoenix team in the Conference Semi's.
2006: Dallas loses to Peak Wade and the Heat in the NBA Finals.
2007: This is a bad one.
2008: Dallas loses to a better Hornets team with [arguably] peak CP3 in round 1.
2009: Dallas loses to a much better Nuggets team with Peak Carmelo after beating a better Spurs team in round 1.
2010: Dallas loses to a much better San Antonio team in round 1.
2011: NBA Finals Victory
2012: Ran it back with an already over-the-hill roster, loses in round 1 to a significantly better Thunder team.

Sure, he had 3 deep runs, but you will be hard pressed to find a better conference over a 12-year stretch better than the West from 2001-2012.

and he was exposed by smaller SFs.

Not really. When was this exactly?

Sure, Kobe had his low moments as well but I think it's hard to say Dirk was a more reliable playoffs force than Kobe...

I don't.

From 2001-2012 Dirk averaged 25.9 points on 58.4 TS% in the post-season. During this stretch Dirk shot ~46% from mid-range and 38.4% from 3. His Individual Ortg/Drtg splits paint him at 118/107 [+11] during that span.

From 2000-2012 Kobe averaged 27.7 points on 54.3 TS% in the post-season. During this stretch Kobe shot ~42% from mid-range and 33.4% from 3. His individual Ortg/Drtg splits paint him at 110/106 [+4] during that span.

Damn. This goes way beyond over the top.

2005; that series against the Suns was tight and saying the Suns were better is an easy way to check out. Dirk led the Mavs to 58 wins and 3rd best SRS in the league. Let's not act like his team didn't have a solid shot at winning that series by saying 'the Suns were better'. Dirk didn't play good enough.
2006; Peak Wade isn't a solid argument. One, it's hard to say 2006 Wade is peak Wade while knowing his performances in 2009 and 2010. Also, Dirk had a better team around him.
2010; No. That's just flat out wrong. The Spurs were worse than the Mavs, they beat the Dallas team because they matched up well against the Mavs and Dirk was part of that negative matchups. As for SFs matchup, I suggest you to look over the latest goat peak project. It was discussed in there.

Let's not be revisionists in here. The Spurs were better than the Mavs in 2010? That's just results talking to a point even more than I did.

I stopped taking BBRef's rating for the playoffs seriously. They just assume what if a player handles the ball for 100 possessions with decisive actions resulting in box numbers, what would be the numbers he'd be producing.


If we're going into net ratings territory, let's use NBA.com numbers.

From 2001 to 2010; the Lakers had 3.60 net rating in the playoffs. With Kobe it was +4.72 and without him it was -4.51. That's +9.23 difference. Only in 1 of 9, Kobe had negative impact (2006). Kobe played in 87.8% of available minutes (6284/7154).

Spoiler:

2001; Lakers overall +13.4 in 773 mins, Kobe +16.0 in 694 mins
2002; Lakers overall +3.9 in 917 mins, Kobe +4.4 in 832 mins
2003; Lakers overall +0.2 in 581 mins, Kobe +1.8 in 531 mins
2004; Lakers overall +0.4 in 1066 mins, Kobe +1.1 in 972 mins
2006; Lakers overall -7.7 in 346 mins, Kobe -9.5 in 314 mins
2007; Lakers overall -10.7 in 240 mins, Kobe -10.0 in 215 mins
2008; Lakers overall +2.6 in 1013 mins, Kobe +4.0 in 863 mins
2009; Lakers overall +8.2 in 1114 mins, Kobe +10.3 in 940 mins
2010; Lakers overall +4.3 in 1104 mins, Kobe +5.3 in 923 mins

From 2002 to 2011; the Mavs had 0.84 net rating in the playoffs. With Dirk it was +1.60 and without him it was -3.70. That's +5.30 difference. Dirk played in 85.7% of available minutes (4729/5517)

Spoiler:

2002; Mavs overall -0.2 in 389 mins, Dirk -1.8 in 357 mins
2003; Mavs overall +0.0 in 826 mins, Dirk -0.2 in 832 mins (eliminated missed games)
2004; Mavs overall +1.0 in 240 mins, Dirk 0.9 in 531 mins
2005; Mavs overall -1.7 in 629 mins, Dirk -2.6 in 972 mins
2006; Mavs overall +4.4 in 1124 mins, Dirk +5.5 in 314 mins
2007; Mavs overall -7.4 in 288 mins, Dirk -6.4 in 215 mins
2008; Mavs overall -10.2 in 240 mins, Dirk -10.6 in 863 mins
2009; Mavs overall -1.1 in 480 mins, Dirk +1.9 in 940 mins
2010; Mavs overall -1.3 in 288 mins, Dirk -3.5 in 923 mins
2011; Mavs overall +6.0 in 1013 mins, Dİrk +9.7 in 826 mins

[Odinn21]

I do think there is a good argument for Kobe but I’d side with Dirk as I think his iso game, foul drawing, off ball play and general efficiency make him more potent as an offensive anchor overall and in the playoffs especially.

How's that? Dirk was known for being soft before his ring in 2011. He had only 3 deep runs in the playoffs and he was exposed by smaller SFs. Sure, Kobe had his low moments as well but I think it's hard to say Dirk was a more reliable playoffs force than Kobe...

Dirk was more reliable scorer in playoffs than Kobe by most statistical measurements. Whether that makes him better is up to debate, but outside of 2007 nothing suggests that Dirk is questionable playoffs performer.

I didn't even say Dirk is a bad playoff performer or something like. How he's better than Kobe, that was my point. Dr Spaceman said more potent. I'm OK with potent without the more.

[GhosDini]

Didnt Kobe beat Dirks entire team by himself wjen they wrre in their peaks? Going with the guy that can beat teams by himself.

[Matt15]

Two of my favorite players. It basically comes down to preference but as Fadeaway J pointed out for me it is important that my offensive #1 be an above average passer( though Dirk's gravity does make this more interesting). Close overall but I go Kobe due to his passing/playmaking advantage.