MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened

[greekbuck34]

Bucks are now 5-0 without Giannis with an average margin of victory being 17 points

They are the best team in basketball irrespective of him playing or not

Giannis has now slipped fully out of contention

The Clippers without Kawhi and PG put a good fight against he best team in basketball.
The Clippers with Kawhi and PG got 40 balled.
The Mavs without Luka beat the best team in basketball.
The Nuggets with Jokic a no factor and other injuries beat the best team in basketball.
The Miami Heat without Butler beat the best team in basketball.
The Lakers without Lebron and AD destroyed the thunder.
The Rockets without Harden and Westbrook destroyed Utah.

I think we have to agree that the teams are much better without their superstars.
Especially with the Bucks beating 5 lottery teams without Giannis.

[Infinite Llamas]

Bucks are now 5-0 without Giannis with an average margin of victory being 17 points

They are the best team in basketball irrespective of him playing or not

Giannis has now slipped fully out of contention

The Clippers without Kawhi and PG put a good fight against he best team in basketball.
The Clippers with Kawhi and PG got 40 balled.
The Mavs without Luka beat the best team in basketball.
The Nuggets with Jokic a no factor and other injuries beat the best team in basketball.
The Miami Heat without Butler beat the best team in basketball.
The Lakers without Lebron and AD destroyed the thunder.
The Rockets without Harden and Westbrook destroyed Utah.

I think we have to agree that the teams are much better without their superstars.
Especially with the Bucks beating 5 lottery teams without Giannis.

Jokic 15/10/9 wasn’t his best game but far from being a non factor

[buckboy]

I legitimately feel bad for Harden and his fans for how many 2nd place MVP finishes he'll have by the end of his career. This year is looking like #4 despite his phenomenal play.

Luckily, I think we will get to the point where MVP shares will be a bigger part of the discussion in comparing players. Harden has a chance to be top 5-10 all-time in MVP shares by the end of his career.

He'll win it this year. They will be a top 2 seed, possibly number 1. It will be impossible to deny him then. He is just the most unstoppable player in the game right now. Numbers are historic, he will average most points in the modern era, and he will break Steph Curry's record for three pointers in a season. He is more efficient despite scoring more.

[buckboy]

They give up a ton of open 3s. If they go against an elite shooting team, they'll have problem.
They defend the paint better than anyone i've seen. In the playoffs i think this kind of D will be problematic. We'll see.

Last year this was true but this year I don't think they give up more open looks than most teams from deep.

Maybe i'm wrong but i have the impression that every time they lose their opponent shoots lights out.
Sixers had a franchise record 3pt makes at Christmas(19 or something), Nuggets made 20-22 3s days ago.
I've watched these games. Again maybe i'm wrong because i don't watch all their games.
But if you make your shots against them you have a legit chance to beat them. Ofc that's a big "if".
Easier said than done.

You just have to make them at a 40% clip. Not many teams are gonna do that more than once or twice in a 7 game series. They are going to be very very difficult to beat with out 40% on at least 40 tries. Certainly possible though.

[Patches Perry]

You probably want to check the teams they’ve played without him before calling them ‘top 4 clearly’.

12/11/2019 - Pelicans (22-31)
12/27/2019 - @ Hawks (15-40)
12/28/2019 - Magic (23-31)
1/28/2020 - Wizards (18-33)
2/10/2020 - Kings (21-32)

Bucks deserve credit for their cohesiveness as a team, but these are all teams on pace for <35 wins, and 4 out of 5 at home. The 1 road game was against a team on pace for 22 wins. Before you even get into small sample sizes, it's a well below average lot of teams.

[greekbuck34]

Bucks are now 5-0 without Giannis with an average margin of victory being 17 points

They are the best team in basketball irrespective of him playing or not

Giannis has now slipped fully out of contention

The Clippers without Kawhi and PG put a good fight against he best team in basketball.
The Clippers with Kawhi and PG got 40 balled.
The Mavs without Luka beat the best team in basketball.
The Nuggets with Jokic a no factor and other injuries beat the best team in basketball.
The Miami Heat without Butler beat the best team in basketball.
The Lakers without Lebron and AD destroyed the thunder.
The Rockets without Harden and Westbrook destroyed Utah.

I think we have to agree that the teams are much better without their superstars.
Especially with the Bucks beating 5 lottery teams without Giannis.

Jokic 15/10/9 wasn’t his best game but far from being a non factor

You didn't watch the game. It was with him on the bench in the whole 3rd quarter when the Nuggets playing Rockets-like small ball exploded making 3 after 3 to take a big lead against the bucks.
Jokic was -9 with 15 points on 17 shots.

[LikeABosh]

Giannis has now slipped fully out of contention

I like how you say this as if he's not gonna win it. The voters don't care about your nonsense

[Infinite Llamas]

The Clippers without Kawhi and PG put a good fight against he best team in basketball.
The Clippers with Kawhi and PG got 40 balled.
The Mavs without Luka beat the best team in basketball.
The Nuggets with Jokic a no factor and other injuries beat the best team in basketball.
The Miami Heat without Butler beat the best team in basketball.
The Lakers without Lebron and AD destroyed the thunder.
The Rockets without Harden and Westbrook destroyed Utah.

I think we have to agree that the teams are much better without their superstars.
Especially with the Bucks beating 5 lottery teams without Giannis.

Jokic 15/10/9 wasn’t his best game but far from being a non factor

You didn't watch the game. It was with him on the bench in the whole 3rd quarter when the Nuggets playing Rockets-like small ball exploded making 3 after 3 to take a big lead against the bucks.
Jokic was -9 with 15 points on 17 shots.

No i absolutely did watch the game and Jokic got his fourth foul midway through the third and they were only down by a couple at that point. Built a ten point lead that was halved early in the fourth and Jokic scored some buckets to build the lead back up. He wasn’t totally efficient but he was still very effective and definitely should have shot more than zero free throws. He got a tough whistle.

You really think I’d skip a Jokic game? Lol

[KGtabake]

You really think I’d skip a Jokic game? Lol

[Wooderson]

You probably want to check the teams they’ve played without him before calling them ‘top 4 clearly’.

12/11/2019 - Pelicans (22-31)
12/27/2019 - @ Hawks (15-40)
12/28/2019 - Magic (23-31)
1/28/2020 - Wizards (18-33)
2/10/2020 - Kings (21-32)

Bucks deserve credit for their cohesiveness as a team, but these are all teams on pace for <35 wins, and 4 out of 5 at home. The 1 road game was against a team on pace for 22 wins. Before you even get into small sample sizes, it's a well below average lot of teams.

The Pelicans were in the midst of a 13 game losing streak as well in that matchup. They are a very good team without Giannis and historically great with him.

[Swish1906]

Giannis plays over six (!) freaking minutes less per game than Harden. So if you look at per 100 possessions or per36min, he even outscores Harden...

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=James+Harden&player_id1_select=James+Harden&player_id1=hardeja01&y1=2020&player_id2_hint=Giannis+Antetokounmpo&player_id2_select=Giannis+Antetokounmpo&y2=2020&player_id2=antetgi01&idx=players

There isnt a discussion anymore who is MVP...

[bballgod07]

Giannis plays over six (!) freaking minutes less per game than Harden. So if you look at per 100 possessions or per36min, he even outscores Harden...

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=James+Harden&player_id1_select=James+Harden&player_id1=hardeja01&y1=2020&player_id2_hint=Giannis+Antetokounmpo&player_id2_select=Giannis+Antetokounmpo&y2=2020&player_id2=antetgi01&idx=players

There isnt a discussion anymore who is MVP...

Imagine teams trying to double team Harden with teammate Kompo is having. Kompo have the best overall cast in the NBA. Only reason why harden isnt averaging 39ppg anymore is because teams are double teaming him from half court.

[C0bR]

Giannis plays over six (!) freaking minutes less per game than Harden. So if you look at per 100 possessions or per36min, he even outscores Harden...

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=James+Harden&player_id1_select=James+Harden&player_id1=hardeja01&y1=2020&player_id2_hint=Giannis+Antetokounmpo&player_id2_select=Giannis+Antetokounmpo&y2=2020&player_id2=antetgi01&idx=players

There isnt a discussion anymore who is MVP...

Giannis only plays 30 minutes per game because his team is excellent without him on the floor which allows him to play much harder during his 30 minutes and stuff 36-40 minutes-tier production into them

He is essentially playing 40 minutes a game masquerading as 30 and his production should be taken as such

[Infinite Llamas]

Giannis plays over six (!) freaking minutes less per game than Harden. So if you look at per 100 possessions or per36min, he even outscores Harden...

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=James+Harden&player_id1_select=James+Harden&player_id1=hardeja01&y1=2020&player_id2_hint=Giannis+Antetokounmpo&player_id2_select=Giannis+Antetokounmpo&y2=2020&player_id2=antetgi01&idx=players

There isnt a discussion anymore who is MVP...

Giannis only plays 30 minutes per game because his team is excellent without him on the floor which allows him to play much harder during his 30 minutes and stuff 36-40 minutes-tier production into them

He is essentially playing 40 minutes a game masquerading as 30 and his production should be taken as such

His meteoric usage rate agrees with you. If he had a worse team around him I guarantee you he would be pacing himself more for a larger workload.

This will be two years in a row where he has a 50-40-90 teammate and I really don’t think his teammates get enough credit

[KGtabake]

Bucks are now 5-0 without Giannis with an average margin of victory being 17 points

They are the best team in basketball irrespective of him playing or not

Giannis has now slipped fully out of contention

Yes, they are an elite regular season team even without him. Lillard is the MVP for me if he gets Portland to the playoffs.

If the Knicks avoid a bottom 5 record, the MVP is clearly Julius Randle. He's playing with another 4 power forwards and he clearly outplays them.

[Siefer]

Giannis plays over six (!) freaking minutes less per game than Harden. So if you look at per 100 possessions or per36min, he even outscores Harden...

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=James+Harden&player_id1_select=James+Harden&player_id1=hardeja01&y1=2020&player_id2_hint=Giannis+Antetokounmpo&player_id2_select=Giannis+Antetokounmpo&y2=2020&player_id2=antetgi01&idx=players

There isnt a discussion anymore who is MVP...

Giannis only plays 30 minutes per game because his team is excellent without him on the floor which allows him to play much harder during his 30 minutes and stuff 36-40 minutes-tier production into them

He is essentially playing 40 minutes a game masquerading as 30 and his production should be taken as such

You might be on to something. We can apply a new metric, Player Effort Normalized Isolated Statistics, to everyone to understand their real impact. For example, Whiteside puts about 5 minutes worth of effort into his 31 minutes, so really, he'd be averaging 97.34 points, 87.42 rebounds, and 19.2 blocks per game if he really wanted to!

[kieferli]

Giannis will going to win MVP and DPOY this year

[mediocrityrules]

Good chance Bucks lose to the Pacers today without Giannis. Would that loss immediately boost his mvp considerations?!


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[NO-KG-AI]

i wouldn't even know who to give it to if I couldn't pick Giannis, that's how one sided this race is.

[Texas Chuck]

i wouldn't even know who to give it to if I couldn't pick Giannis, that's how one sided this race is.

I was thinking the same thing. There were points where I thought Harden was a clear 2nd, others when Lebron was. Never thought Luka or Siakam were at that level plus the games missed are adding up. Each of them have barely played more than Kawhi. AD should have never been a serious candidate despite the Laker hype machine.

It should be unanimous this year for Giannis. And I hate the argument against him being his teammates are playing well. That's an argument in his favor that his teammates can succeed around him. Especially when the same posters use that against him they use the exact opposite against Lebron or Harden.