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OT: Democratic Primary Thread

Moderators: dakomish23, mpharris36, j4remi, NoLayupRule, GONYK, Jeff Van Gully, HerSports85, Deeeez Knicks

Who are you voting for?

Poll ended at Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:48 pm

Joe Biden - I have no idea why, and I also forgot what year it is
18
28%
Bernie Sanders - I am an intelligent human being, and understand Sanders is our last hope and America needs him
38
58%
Tulsi Gabbard (Dropped Out) - Ringo Starr is also my favorite Beatle
9
14%
 
Total votes: 65

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Re: OT: Democratic Primary Thread 

Post#1021 » by HarthorneWingo » Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:30 am

K-DOT wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
A lot of candidates picked on the Green New Deal lingo without committing the proper resources. It's like Pelosi calling herself a "progressive." Please. The proof is in the money he's willing to devote to the program. Look at the diference between Biden vs. Bernie's programs. Night and day. Also, I'm sure you noticed that while AOC has endorsed Biden, she has criticized his climate change program.

Biden's plan doesn't fund "the" Green New Deal.

Right, as I pointed out. It doesn't go nearly far enough for me

But there's a big difference between "this isn't enough" and "this is literally going in the opposite direction"


True, though doing it incrementally could be the biggest waste of time, i.e. that not going bold now is just as destructive as going in the opposite direction or nothing to address. At least if we do nothing, at least it’s more money to party with before we witness our extinction as a species. Spending money to nibble at the fringe seems kinda like a waste of money while generating false hope.

“No more half measures.”

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Re: OT: Democratic Primary Thread 

Post#1022 » by DOT » Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:42 am

HarthorneWingo wrote:
K-DOT wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
A lot of candidates picked on the Green New Deal lingo without committing the proper resources. It's like Pelosi calling herself a "progressive." Please. The proof is in the money he's willing to devote to the program. Look at the diference between Biden vs. Bernie's programs. Night and day. Also, I'm sure you noticed that while AOC has endorsed Biden, she has criticized his climate change program.

Biden's plan doesn't fund "the" Green New Deal.

Right, as I pointed out. It doesn't go nearly far enough for me

But there's a big difference between "this isn't enough" and "this is literally going in the opposite direction"


True, though doing it incrementally could be the biggest waste of time, i.e. that not going bold now is just as destructive as going in the opposite direction or nothing to address. At least if we do nothing, at least it’s more money to party with before we witness our extinction as a species. Spending money to nibble at the fringe seems kinda like a waste of money while generating false hope.

“No more half measures.”

-Mike Ehrmantraut

Issue is that it's not doing nothing, it's actively doing harm

Like, our current head of the EPA was a coal lobbyist

This is why I've been really hammering home that it's important for the party to get its sh*t together and prep for 2024, cause we can have 4 more years of a half measure if it means we go full steam from there on out. It's not ideal and we needed to be doing it decades ago, but it is what it is

If we lose the presidency in 2024 (Biden's only going for one term), then we've more or less forfeited the battle against climate change. We wouldn't be able to do anything until the 30s at which point it will be far too late. Or if the party decides we need more milquetoast moderates, and the Dems win in 2024, it won't be enough anymore to do half measures
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Re: OT: Democratic Primary Thread 

Post#1023 » by HarthorneWingo » Fri Apr 17, 2020 3:33 am

:roll:

Jacob S. Hacker, a professor of political science at Yale, is the author of “The Great Risk Shift: The New Economic Insecurity and the Decline of the American Dream” and, with Paul Pierson, the forthcoming “Let Them Eat Tweets: How the Right Rules in an Age of Extreme Inequality.” This is his op-ed in today's NY Times on how Joe Biden can "own healthcare" in the upcoming Election.

Guess whose healthcare plan he recommends Joe Biden adopt for his presidential campaign?

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/16/opinion/joe-biden-health-care.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage
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Re: OT: Democratic Primary Thread 

Post#1024 » by HarthorneWingo » Fri Apr 17, 2020 3:40 am

K-DOT wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
K-DOT wrote:Right, as I pointed out. It doesn't go nearly far enough for me

But there's a big difference between "this isn't enough" and "this is literally going in the opposite direction"


True, though doing it incrementally could be the biggest waste of time, i.e. that not going bold now is just as destructive as going in the opposite direction or nothing to address. At least if we do nothing, at least it’s more money to party with before we witness our extinction as a species. Spending money to nibble at the fringe seems kinda like a waste of money while generating false hope.

“No more half measures.”

-Mike Ehrmantraut

Issue is that it's not doing nothing, it's actively doing harm

Like, our current head of the EPA was a coal lobbyist

This is why I've been really hammering home that it's important for the party to get its sh*t together and prep for 2024, cause we can have 4 more years of a half measure if it means we go full steam from there on out. It's not ideal and we needed to be doing it decades ago, but it is what it is

If we lose the presidency in 2024 (Biden's only going for one term), then we've more or less forfeited the battle against climate change. We wouldn't be able to do anything until the 30s at which point it will be far too late. Or if the party decides we need more milquetoast moderates, and the Dems win in 2024, it won't be enough anymore to do half measures


I did a very poor job of articulating myself in that prior post. Basically, I was trying to say that doing a little is, in essence, like going backwards. It's either going bold or in the words of Inigo Montoya "Now you must prepare to die." :lol:

The same is true with healthcare. You should check out the NY Times op-ed I just posted, above, on how Biden "can own healthcare." Yeah, I know, another Trump term can seal our fate whereas a Biden presidency gets us back in the right direction. Meh. Noth without a Democratic Senate and to do that we need to generate some real enthusiasm.

I appreciate your insight and, believe me, I'm open to all suggestions.
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Re: OT: Democratic Primary Thread 

Post#1025 » by HarthorneWingo » Fri Apr 17, 2020 4:15 am

Here's a "biased" progressive POV of how the media banded together with the DNC to fight Bernie Sanders' campaign after the Nevada primary and just before South Carolina. I completely concur with his assessment which is not to say that Biden still might have won just pointing out the media's role in "manufacturing consent" here.

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Re: OT: Democratic Primary Thread 

Post#1026 » by blanko » Fri Apr 17, 2020 5:21 am

This primary was not about finding somebody who can beat Donald Trump. The democratic leadership really doesn't care if they win this election or not. No matter what, after twenny twenny there will be a Democratic president. Trump does not have any proteges and his vice president is too old.

This primary was about ensuring control of the Democratic Party for years to come. They did not want "progressives" to take over the Democratic Party and the leadership. Now if the progressives do not fall in line they have a Built-in Scapegoat on why Donald Trump won. Then, the leadership will use this excuse to purge all "progressives" like aoc.

Once again Bernie has bent the knee. He has all the money left over from his campaign, his book deals, and if he plays by the rules a cushy retirement with multiple speaking gigs a year(paying about $100,000 a pop).

Do I think Bernie Sanders was a fake? No, I do not. However, Bernie is getting up there in age and revolution is a young man's game. Bernie just wants a nice nest egg to retire to.

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Re: OT: Democratic Primary Thread 

Post#1027 » by HarthorneWingo » Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:19 am

A report from Current Affairs (a progressive channel/news site) on Tara Reade’s complaint of sex assault by Biden which responds in detail to the news reports critical of her allegations.

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2020/04/evaluating-tara-reades-claims
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Re: OT: Democratic Primary Thread 

Post#1028 » by moocow007 » Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:48 am

Kampuchea wrote:With Sanders gone, is anybody moving over to the Green Party? The most progressive option

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Wingo has about as likely a shot of becoming the next president of the US as Hawkins if that's he's selling. There is absolutely no way that the wealthy who control everything let that happen.
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Re: OT: Democratic Primary Thread 

Post#1029 » by HarthorneWingo » Fri Apr 17, 2020 3:20 pm

moocow007 wrote:
Kampuchea wrote:With Sanders gone, is anybody moving over to the Green Party? The most progressive option

Image


Wingo has about as likely a shot of becoming the next president of the US as Hawkins if that's he's selling. There is absolutely no way that the wealthy who control everything let that happen.


Then we go to war!

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Re: OT: Democratic Primary Thread 

Post#1030 » by Phish Tank » Fri Apr 17, 2020 4:14 pm

if Briahna Joy Gray and the ilk (Krystal Ball, Kulinksi, Nina Turner, Jimmy Dore, Cenk, et al) want to seriously make change, they must focus all their energy and resources on down ballot elections in critical states (no, NY and CA don't count). This includes all state and local elections. The reality of Our Revolution is that their record of success is super low and really only limited to super super safe/progressive districts (sorry AOC fans, but the Bronx/Queens has always been a progressive district). Look at Randy Bryce in Wisconsin, for example. All the energy and effort and he got trounced in the 2018 general elections 55-42. That just can't happen if we're claiming there's progressive energy.

Problem is all of em are more like grifters than change makers.
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Re: OT: Democratic Primary Thread 

Post#1031 » by HarthorneWingo » Fri Apr 17, 2020 8:55 pm

Talk of the town:

Black voters who supported Biden in the primary are going to be mighty upset if he doesn't select a black person (women?) for VP. Georgia is probably not in play, so that probably excludes Stacy Abrams. California is already a winning state, so we don't need Kamala Harris. That pretty much leaves Klobuchar and Warren, neither of which excite black folk to say the least. Neither will get them out to vote. Ayanna Pressley could be considered but she's also not from a swing state.

The irony is that there was a decent to good chance that Bernie would've selected Nina Turner, a black woman, as his VP.
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Re: OT: Democratic Primary Thread 

Post#1032 » by j4remi » Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:06 pm

Phish Tank wrote:if Briahna Joy Gray and the ilk (Krystal Ball, Kulinksi, Nina Turner, Jimmy Dore, Cenk, et al) want to seriously make change, they must focus all their energy and resources on down ballot elections in critical states (no, NY and CA don't count). This includes all state and local elections. The reality of Our Revolution is that their record of success is super low and really only limited to super super safe/progressive districts (sorry AOC fans, but the Bronx/Queens has always been a progressive district). Look at Randy Bryce in Wisconsin, for example. All the energy and effort and he got trounced in the 2018 general elections 55-42. That just can't happen if we're claiming there's progressive energy.

Problem is all of em are more like grifters than change makers.


That list is kinda weird because they play a bunch of different roles, some with actual value. Bri was a writer before this past campaign. Jimmy's a stand-up comic turned youtube personality. But then Cenk and Ball have worked for MSNBC. Nina was a state senator. Kulinsky basically popped using youtube but he's also a founding member of the Justice Dems that helped put on the Squad. I don't co-sign 'em all, but grifters? Nah, some of these people have made real contributions to progressive causes. And just to throw it in, I don't even rock with those people particularly. But I think lumping them together isn't fair.

As for election results, I think that's being myopic.The Squad members are among the most popular newcomers to Congress, Justice Dems did that. AOC is a top fundraiser nationwide, not just in her district. Mary Newman just knocked off Dan Lipinski riding a Justice Dems endorsement too. So just in terms of breaking into the national discussion, we have a clear success story. Overtaking the party is obvious not happening in their first election cycle.

Our Revolution and the Justice Dems have basically come in and had to create their own parallel infrastructure to run progressives. The DCCC/DNC just didn't back progressives with any kind of fervor, they took their losses for foregone conclusions. This time around the DCCC threatened to blackball anyone who consults a challenger to an incumbent. So it's not like progressives have had an even playing field here, they've been playing catch-up.
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Re: OT: Democratic Primary Thread 

Post#1033 » by frothbrain » Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:09 pm

Biden should select a Hispanic woman as his running mate. If you are going to pander to identity politics at least do so effectively.
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Re: OT: Democratic Primary Thread 

Post#1034 » by Phish Tank » Fri Apr 17, 2020 10:03 pm

j4remi wrote:
Phish Tank wrote:if Briahna Joy Gray and the ilk (Krystal Ball, Kulinksi, Nina Turner, Jimmy Dore, Cenk, et al) want to seriously make change, they must focus all their energy and resources on down ballot elections in critical states (no, NY and CA don't count). This includes all state and local elections. The reality of Our Revolution is that their record of success is super low and really only limited to super super safe/progressive districts (sorry AOC fans, but the Bronx/Queens has always been a progressive district). Look at Randy Bryce in Wisconsin, for example. All the energy and effort and he got trounced in the 2018 general elections 55-42. That just can't happen if we're claiming there's progressive energy.

Problem is all of em are more like grifters than change makers.


That list is kinda weird because they play a bunch of different roles, some with actual value. Bri was a writer before this past campaign. Jimmy's a stand-up comic turned youtube personality. But then Cenk and Ball have worked for MSNBC. Nina was a state senator. Kulinsky basically popped using youtube but he's also a founding member of the Justice Dems that helped put on the Squad. I don't co-sign 'em all, but grifters? Nah, some of these people have made real contributions to progressive causes. And just to throw it in, I don't even rock with those people particularly. But I think lumping them together isn't fair.

As for election results, I think that's being myopic.The Squad members are among the most popular newcomers to Congress, Justice Dems did that. AOC is a top fundraiser nationwide, not just in her district. Mary Newman just knocked off Dan Lipinski riding a Justice Dems endorsement too. So just in terms of breaking into the national discussion, we have a clear success story. Overtaking the party is obvious not happening in their first election cycle.

Our Revolution and the Justice Dems have basically come in and had to create their own parallel infrastructure to run progressives. The DCCC/DNC just didn't back progressives with any kind of fervor, they took their losses for foregone conclusions. This time around the DCCC threatened to blackball anyone who consults a challenger to an incumbent. So it's not like progressives have had an even playing field here, they've been playing catch-up.


Yes, the list is random. I really propped a lot of big progressive names in the list though, not necessarily because they're similar, but rather convenience. And yes, grifters is probably rough, since that means they're lumped with the Candace Owens of the world, so I'll retract that word.

I know the Squad is highly popular and they're popular nationwide. But as I've mentioned before, being popular nationwide doesn't always translate to local victories. The Lipinski "upset" if we want to call it that is an interesting case study. He was already on the rocks heading into this election as he barely beat Newman in 2018. Then he got Booker, Castro, & Warren endorsing Newman and that really put her above the edge, though the margin of victory was lower than before.

The thing to remember with the DCCC/DNC is that their only purpose is to protect their seats. That's the only reason they support incumbents. They have no incentive to do otherwise unless the current incumbent is unsalvageable. Lipinski never reached that level apparently. The progressive arms won't have that infrastructure unless they find a way to raise a TON of money. It can work in case-by-case scenarios, but it's more TBD.
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Re: OT: Democratic Primary Thread 

Post#1035 » by j4remi » Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:15 pm

Phish Tank wrote:
Yes, the list is random. I really propped a lot of big progressive names in the list though, not necessarily because they're similar, but rather convenience. And yes, grifters is probably rough, since that means they're lumped with the Candace Owens of the world, so I'll retract that word.


Yeah, outside of Dore who I think is just playing up outrage; grifters is a bridge too far. I'd steer clear of most of them myself. I like Rising because it usually has varied perspectives, so I'd leave Ball out. But I'm more into Majority Report, Michael Brooks, Hartmann, Goodman and Dixon than that list you've got...I can't stand Dore.

Phish Tank wrote:I know the Squad is highly popular and they're popular nationwide. But as I've mentioned before, being popular nationwide doesn't always translate to local victories. The Lipinski "upset" if we want to call it that is an interesting case study. He was already on the rocks heading into this election as he barely beat Newman in 2018. Then he got Booker, Castro, & Warren endorsing Newman and that really put her above the edge, though the margin of victory was lower than before.


I didn't call it an upset fam, but it is a progressive with a Justice Democrats endorsement coming through with a dub. The fact she was safe to endorse for a number of presidential candidates with her policy list is a positive sign.

As for the Squad, I bring up their national popularity because it speaks to "progressive energy" being real and not localized. The lack of infrastructure has meant that good candidates can lose, hell, Bernie's campaign strategy left plenty to be desired. But that's not the same as there being no movement toward progressive ideals. The policies they support have become a lot more normalized and the ones that have broken through, have been pretty successful.

Phish Tank wrote:The thing to remember with the DCCC/DNC is that their only purpose is to protect their seats. That's the only reason they support incumbents. They have no incentive to do otherwise unless the current incumbent is unsalvageable. Lipinski never reached that level apparently. The progressive arms won't have that infrastructure unless they find a way to raise a TON of money. It can work in case-by-case scenarios, but it's more TBD.


Yeah, I get that DCCC and DNC are supposed to shield seats. That doesn't change the fact that progressives have been at a handicap and have to build a different infrastructure to take seats though. I do agree that the progressive wing needs to raise a lot money and right now, I think they're better served making picking targets instead of going with a broader push. But that's why I think it's important to point out, they haven't won a ton but that kinda makes sense. They're new and facing embedded opponents, naturally the hit rate isn't going to be high. This was virtually non-existent 5 years ago. The energy is real, how much it can grow is the question.
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Re: OT: Democratic Primary Thread 

Post#1036 » by Tron Carter » Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:41 pm

this was depressing to get through. god bless the video editor

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Re: OT: Democratic Primary Thread 

Post#1037 » by Phish Tank » Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:48 am

j4remi wrote:
Yeah, outside of Dore who I think is just playing up outrage; grifters is a bridge too far. I'd steer clear of most of them myself. I like Rising because it usually has varied perspectives, so I'd leave Ball out. But I'm more into Majority Report, Michael Brooks, Hartmann, Goodman and Dixon than that list you've got...I can't stand Dore.


Majority Report & Michael Brooks are def a good watch. I do like the balance provided between Brooks and the pragmatism of Seder.

j4remi wrote:I didn't call it an upset fam, but it is a progressive with a Justice Democrats endorsement coming through with a dub. The fact she was safe to endorse for a number of presidential candidates with her policy list is a positive sign.

As for the Squad, I bring up their national popularity because it speaks to "progressive energy" being real and not localized. The lack of infrastructure has meant that good candidates can lose, hell, Bernie's campaign strategy left plenty to be desired. But that's not the same as there being no movement toward progressive ideals. The policies they support have become a lot more normalized and the ones that have broken through, have been pretty successful.


I know you didn't call it an upset and yes, the Justice Democrats did endorse her first. I agree with what you've said regarding Lipinski. I'd say that the strategies used in the 2020 Newman campaign built off the 2018 wave. I'm really curious to see how Justice, Our Revolution, and others parlay the same approach with the 2020 races. I haven't followed all the local and downballot races, but do send me some specific examples so that I can follow.

I agree that there is real progressive energy. I'm more concerned on how it translates to victories. A movement exists. In an ideal world, I'd like progressives to win every seat possible. I want M4A and GND.... I may disagree on some of the nuances, but I do want those to happen. There's a way to push this to rural America, but I know it doesn't translate electorally everywhere.

j4remi wrote:Yeah, I get that DCCC and DNC are supposed to shield seats. That doesn't change the fact that progressives have been at a handicap and have to build a different infrastructure to take seats though. I do agree that the progressive wing needs to raise a lot money and right now, I think they're better served making picking targets instead of going with a broader push. But that's why I think it's important to point out, they haven't won a ton but that kinda makes sense. They're new and facing embedded opponents, naturally the hit rate isn't going to be high. This was virtually non-existent 5 years ago. The energy is real, how much it can grow is the question.


That's true. The progressives will always have a handicap unless they can get an army of perpetual small donors. It might be a lot to ask for, but it's the best antidote to SuperPAC donations. But like you said, it's all about strategic targets. The progressive arm can rise bottom up.

I think we're on the same page for the most part.
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Re: OT: Democratic Primary Thread 

Post#1038 » by HarthorneWingo » Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:44 am

GONYK wrote:
Pointgod wrote:
GONYK wrote:
The Krystal Ball tweet is patently absurd.

The other two I can understand, even if that Kyle Kulinski guy is a bit of a tool.


I’m not sure if you’re aware but Brianna Greyjoy is Bernie’s campaign manager. The same person that would be demanding that Democrats rightly fall in line if Bernie was the presumptive nominee is not supporting the presumptive nominee. These aren’t examples of random internet commentators, these are all high profile Sanders supporters that would be screaming that Democrats need to get behind Sanders are now advocating for not voting for the Democrat or staying home. So much for any type of unity message.


I'm aware of who Greyjoy is, and why her saying that is hypocritical. I'm saying that I understand why some Bernie supporters would feel that way.

People are going to grieve their candidate and then make a choice. Things are raw right now.


Exactly. You got to give these people their space. Unlike the Biden campaign, the sanders campaign had a large grass roots network throughout the country. Many of these people traveled about the country on their own dime working their asses off for Bernie. I’m talking boots on the ground.

So yeah, let this play itself out. Joe has time to go all in on his “working class Joe” persona. But his performances this past week in TV were pitiful. Did you see them?

Also, you’ll enjoy this. A NY Times editor has gone public to say that the Times’ article on the Tara Reade complaint was edited at the request of the Biden campaign. And you want to talk to me about the credibility of my news sources? :lol: Let’s face it, the mainstream media does have its issues, just not in the way Trump portrays them.

https://www.foxnews.com/media/new-york-times-biden-accuser-campaign-editor

And your new favorite morning news show:

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Re: OT: Democratic Primary Thread 

Post#1039 » by HarthorneWingo » Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:54 am

Tron Carter wrote:this was depressing to get through. god bless the video editor



I got to 1:01 and then had to hit the pause button. That was painful, mane. :lol:
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Re: OT: Democratic Primary Thread 

Post#1040 » by j4remi » Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:48 pm

HarthorneWingo wrote:Exactly. You got to give these people their space. Unlike the Biden campaign, the sanders campaign had a large grass roots network throughout the country. Many of these people traveled about the country on their own dime working their asses off for Bernie. I’m talking boots on the ground.

So yeah, let this play itself out. Joe has time to go all in on his “working class Joe” persona. But his performances this past week in TV were pitiful. Did you see them?

Also, you’ll enjoy this. A NY Times editor has gone public to say that the Times’ article on the Tara Reade complaint was edited at the request of the Biden campaign. And you want to talk to me about the credibility of my news sources? :lol: Let’s face it, the mainstream media does have its issues, just not in the way Trump portrays them.

https://www.foxnews.com/media/new-york-times-biden-accuser-campaign-editor

And your new favorite morning news show:



Wingo, you seem like a dead ringer for someone who would love citations needed. They bring a leftist perspective to mainstream viewpoints, look at the history of those normalized viewpoints and then explain how they've become embedded as "pragmatic" viewpoints rather than just a frame of mind.

You'd probably have a lot of fun rolling through their list of episodes and finding their breakdowns (if you haven't already found these guys). Here's a good shorter example:
https://soundcloud.com/citationsneeded/news-brief-bolivia-coup-coverage-and-the-limits-of-agency-discourse

And I think this is one you'd get a kick out of:
https://soundcloud.com/citationsneeded/episode-87-nate-silver-and-the-crisis-of-pundit-brain

But fam; if you haven't peeped these guys, you'll probably find a gang of episodes that resonate.
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