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2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 4)

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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 4) 

Post#281 » by thebuzzardman » Fri May 8, 2020 10:55 pm

moocow007 wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:
moocow007 wrote:
The Knicks would be absolutely insane to take Nesmith 6. Can we stop with the over inflated emphasis on 3 point shooting?


3 point shooting emphasis is fine, when it's for role players and guys down lower in the draft.


And that sir is my point. Folks may have missed the part where I was specifically responding to the OP who had Nesmith being the 6th overall pick. To take Nesmith 6th overall would ABSOLUTELY be over inflating the emphasis on 3 point shooting. The Knicks need someone that can take their bottom of the barrel **** ass inefficient offense and make it better not a guy that can shoot spot up 3's. Spot up 3's is not going to make the Knicks 28th ranked offensive efficiency better. A 3 point shooter is not going to prevent the Knicks from having to rely on RJ Barrett to be a POINT SG or Julius Randle from having to be Lebron James in trying to create offense for himself and others on a crap team (neither of which either guy has any business being) or prevent a team that still looks like it's totally lost on offense. The Knicks need a shot creator, someone that can run and offense and create easy shot opportunities for himself and others. Failing that, the Knicks need someone that can be a no.1 option that can create his own shot easily (something that RJ Barrett and Julius Randle...and pretty much every single Knick...struggled with mightily last season). When the guy that can best create his own shot is a 2nd rounder from the previous seasons draft that you barely play, it's pretty clear what they need (the only guy that I would trust in being able to create his own shot in crunch time on this team is ISO Zo...and that's not a good thing).


I think you covered it a couple of posts later on. I replied before I saw them, or maybe it was my way of agreeing and I had seen it; can't remember. Shooting is nice, it's necessary and it's been a Knick weakness for what feels like forever, maybe minus the years of Novak, and even then it was an issue, as there wasn't another Novak to go with Novak.

Anyway agree the Knicks need a creator of some kind. Ideally, it's a guy who can create for himself and others, but honestly, they could use nearly any variation - the caveat here being they are a few years away no matter what. What I mean by that is, if the guy is good at breaking down the defense but maybe isn't the most reliable scorer, while not ideal, that'll do. Or, a guy is good at creating his own shot\breaking down the defense but isn't the most willing passer, that would be ok as well.

These are the kind of players if the Knicks have to "settle" on around 6,7,8 they should go for.
Now, if it was a deeper draft and and there were some VERY bonafide C's and PF's AND IF lets say the truly good PG's were right at the top and went 1-3, in that scenario I could support the Knicks drafting a BPA guy, as the team is 2 or 3 years away and needs to accumulate talent.

However, while there's a general consensus around the top 2 or 3 picks, the draft seems to have good, but not great, guard depth and PG depth in particular, so Knicks should draft need in this draft. For the purposes of exaggeration, there's no need "Bowie" with Jordan after him in the draft.

TLDR, agreeing the Knicks need a player who can break down the defense and orchestrate and that's a PG.
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 4) 

Post#282 » by WargamesX » Fri May 8, 2020 10:56 pm

mpharris36 wrote:
Read on Twitter


Melo why are you bothering Begley with questions you already know the answer too! :lol: :lol: :lol:


An underrated part of this video is when he mentions people in the organization see RJ as a SG.
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 4) 

Post#283 » by RHODEY » Fri May 8, 2020 11:00 pm

WargamesX wrote:
RHODEY wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:If what Begley is saying is true then we wouldn’t even take Edwards either. Yikes


Well he's a scoring guard....but not a lead scoring guard...


Knicks semantics..... If cole doesn't learn to pass well he'll be the equivalent of Trier with him and RJ taking turns to ISO


Yeah somehow they think COLE is a lead guard even though he couldn't even pass the table salt.

Knicks say they want a Scoring guard translation - if we can't get Lamelo we we'll pick COLE even though he'd likely be a reach from 1-7 and is not the best choice for ball movement/decision making... you knowledgeable fans can just go kick rocks"

Next step is trading away or Dallas picks to go after CP3. They are determined to make sure we wont be major players in the 2021 and 2023 (highschool) drafts .
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 4) 

Post#284 » by RHODEY » Fri May 8, 2020 11:01 pm

3toheadmelo wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:If what Begley is saying is true then we wouldn’t even take Edwards either. Yikes


its sounds like they are prepping us for Coleslaw doesn't it :o :o :o

Yeah -_-

If we get Coleslaw then we need a coach like Kenny Atkinson to develop him. Or he’s gonna end up like DSJ.


Sorry Melo stopped reading after that.
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 4) 

Post#285 » by 3toheadmelo » Fri May 8, 2020 11:07 pm

HarthorneWingo wrote:
RHODEY wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:If what Begley is saying is true then we wouldn’t even take Edwards either. Yikes


Well he's a scoring guard....but not a lead scoring guard...


I think Edwards and Frank would make for a nice ying/yang backcourt tandem. Frank’s turning the corner imo

Frank is improving but his numbers and eye test scream bench player. I would hope we get Cade Cunningham next year if we got Edwards. Frank as backup guard.
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 4) 

Post#286 » by mpharris36 » Fri May 8, 2020 11:12 pm

3toheadmelo wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
RHODEY wrote:
Well he's a scoring guard....but not a lead scoring guard...


I think Edwards and Frank would make for a nice ying/yang backcourt tandem. Frank’s turning the corner imo

Frank is improving but his numbers and eye test scream bench player. I would hope we get Cade Cunningham next year if we got Edwards. Frank as backup guard.


the luck it would require to get Edwards and Cade in b2b years would be astronomical. That doesn't seem attainable. That would be amazing don't get me wrong. But those can't be reasonable expectations.
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 4) 

Post#287 » by thebuzzardman » Fri May 8, 2020 11:12 pm

3toheadmelo wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
RHODEY wrote:
Well he's a scoring guard....but not a lead scoring guard...


I think Edwards and Frank would make for a nice ying/yang backcourt tandem. Frank’s turning the corner imo

Frank is improving but his numbers and eye test scream bench player. I would hope we get Cade Cunningham next year if we got Edwards. Frank as backup guard.


Nothing wrong with that. Even DSJr appears to be on that career trajectory. The Knicks should decide to keep one of them, nurture that player and resign him to a cheap 2 or 3 year deal after next year. Then they have a youngish backup PG/spot starter and if they don't land their PG in this draft they can address it next year.

Either Frank or DSJr might not be ideal, but they pass the ball. RJ is a willing enough passer. Edwards could work.

I guess I'm saying the Knicks don't need to panic, but a lot of this depends on how the draft order shakes out. I'm saying it's going to be a few years, so yeah, try to land that PG, but they could go another way and try to solve it next year etc.
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 4) 

Post#288 » by Chanel Bomber » Fri May 8, 2020 11:57 pm

mpharris36 wrote:
Read on Twitter


Melo why are you bothering Begley with questions you already know the answer too! :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 4) 

Post#289 » by knickstape21 » Sat May 9, 2020 12:06 am

moocow007 wrote:
knickstape21 wrote:
Deeeez Knicks wrote:If we are picking 6 to 10, I am cool with Cole. He could easily be the best option there. There is risk, but he has potential if he could fix some of his issues. His game/style should fit much better in the NBA. I am buying the shot.


Thoughts on Precious Achiuwa? Think he’s being criminally underrated in terms of potential and want to start a discussion about him. Smart kid, versatile, NBA ready body, etc.


My "issue" with Achiuwa is that I don't see his NBA projection to be anything more than a role player along the line of a high energy combo forward that can maybe shoot a little.

I've included clips of 2 games where he put up 20+ points (one against UGA and one against Memphis). If you were just looking at the stats you may assume that Achiuwa had very good scoring ability right? 20+ points against major college programs that have big name players of their own and have systems more akin to what you'd find in the NBA. But if you actually watch the clips you'll see that A LOT of Achiuwa's points were off of him rolling to the basket for wide open dunks or based off of putbacks.





Dunks are dunks and pretty much every single high end college basketball player can dunk if you get him the ball on the move and he faces relatively little resistance.

What I look at his what he looks like when he actually has to work to get a basket. You also want to look and see how me moves on the court, how fluid he is, how his shot looks (not just from 3 but also midrange jumpers and a few feet from the basket). IMO he's kinda mechanical offensively. Yes, he's quick up and down the floor, yes, he has good hops...so he has no problems dunking or finishing. But when he has to make a move with the ball in his hand or when he takes a jumper, it just looks real odd and unnatural...choppy maybe is a good word? blocky?

I just do not see him being able to actually create any shots for himself in the NBA. He's got really sloppy handles where it just doesn't seem like he has good ball control. That's going to be killer against NBA caliber defenders. His shot also looks slow and low with a weird mechanical form. I doubt he'll be able to consistently get that shot up.

Defensively I'm not sure if he's a PF or a SF. He doesn't have the greatest fluidity or lateral quickness (there's a big difference between lateral quickness, which is kinda the bedrock of strong defenders, and explosive straight line speed, typical of good dunkers and finishers). He may not have the size to defend the post. So what does that leave? A high energy guy that can block some shots, grab some boards and finish? That's a role player. And no before anyone brings up Mitch Robinson if Robinson was 4 or 5 inches shorter and had less lateral quickness he'd not be worth as much as he is at 7'1" with great lateral quickness.

I know folks may be trying to find the next Siakam or looking for a prospect that can turn into a Paul George or even Kawhi Leonard type. But if you actually go watch these guys play in college ball you will actually see nuances about their ability to handle the ball, the form on their shots, their fluidity, their lateral quickness, their natural feel for the game (there's a big difference between intensity and feel...great role players have great intensity, the top players have the intensity and natural feel for the game), etc. that Achiuwa simply does not have.

He's got a nice frame and he jumps and he's kinda got pogo stick legs. He plays hard without question and will give you his all when he's on the court. But I don't see enough basketball skills that will allow him to, at the NBA level, be anything more than a high energy bench guy. Being very honest here. I think that is why he's projected usually as a mid 1st round pick (a lot of whom are projected as quality role players) and not lottery. I would not pick him in the top 10, no way. Again, I don't see anything close to being next potential (not guarantee) Siakam or the next Kawhi to be taking what I would consider a flyer (or a gamble) on him in the top 10 (no way in hell at 6). He is a mid round pick to me. Something in the 15-22 range. I do not see a high ceiling guy. I see a high floor guy with the floor being a quality rotational role player. Nothing wrong with that, but that's not what the Knicks need to be coming out of this draft with with their top pick.


Appreciate the thoughts and feedback.

I’m looking at this from a Knicks perspective. I’m ok hitting a base hit right now and select a guy who can play next to Mitchell Robinson and also in his place. The guy who can switch all screens and still make it tough on guards and be your primary screener/lob threat/finisher in pick and roll on offense.

I’m just so curious from his HS days to College. Pretty massive change i think we should all consider. I think he can expand on his handle, but yes, a little clunky and a lot of work to do. Feel as if he has shown way too many flashes to NOT consider him in the top 10.

I also understand it’s difficult to look ahead, but next years draft is incredibly deep at wing/guard. Draft Achiuwa, let him play through it all, lose a ton of games, win a couple you shouldn’t, then select in the top 10 again.

Even if he is not as good as Siakam/Adebayo/Isaac, I do have a feeling he can grow into a player that can compete with them, especially on defense, when we match up.

Smart kid also. Loved the segment he had with the Draft Express guy. Remembered every play before it was broke down. Impressive.
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 4) 

Post#290 » by 3toheadmelo » Sat May 9, 2020 12:21 am

Worst_to_First wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
Read on Twitter


Melo why are you bothering Begley with questions you already know the answer too! :lol: :lol: :lol:


The fan that asked the question knows his stuff.

As much as I’ve grown attached to our guys especially Mitch, no one in our team right now warrants basing your entire draft decision over that one person.

You draft that guard or whoever player over Wiseman because you believe that guy would be more dominant and not because we already have a certain player on our roster.

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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 4) 

Post#291 » by Zenzibar » Sat May 9, 2020 12:30 am

Worst_to_First wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
Read on Twitter


Melo why are you bothering Begley with questions you already know the answer too! :lol: :lol: :lol:


The fan that asked the question knows his stuff.

As much as I’ve grown attached to our guys especially Mitch, no one in our team right now warrants basing your entire draft decision over that one person.

You draft that guard or whoever player over Wiseman because you believe that guy would be more dominant and not because we already have a certain player on our roster.


Unless you have one of the best young centers in the game i.e., Mitchell Robinson. Wiseman makes NO sense in a point guard heavy draft. An area we are weak in.

This argument, is absolutely tiring... :noway:


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It’s visible nearly every night the Knicks play. He is a fearsome presence around the rim, where he can cause havoc on both ends. He is in the top six in the league in blocks, blocks per game and block rate over the last two seasons. And he is already an elite finisher and pick-and-roll threat going downhill. This season he averaged 1.66 points per possession when he finished one as the roll man on the pick-and-roll, according to Synergy Sports, which put him in the 97th percentile.

His impact on the team is clear as well. He has been one of the few bright spots for the Knicks, not only because of his ability to mass...
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 4) 

Post#292 » by HarthorneWingo » Sat May 9, 2020 1:14 am

3toheadmelo wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
RHODEY wrote:
Well he's a scoring guard....but not a lead scoring guard...


I think Edwards and Frank would make for a nice ying/yang backcourt tandem. Frank’s turning the corner imo

Frank is improving but his numbers and eye test scream bench player. I would hope we get Cade Cunningham next year if we got Edwards. Frank as backup guard.


I not ready to concede that just yet. I want to see how Frank improves on what was beginning to do before the ended. I’m not saying that you’re wrong necessarily. I just think next year we’ll find out more. This is why I prefer Haliburton for our pick.

If you continue to keep recycling players through the draft, then you’re going to wind up chasing you tail.
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 4) 

Post#293 » by youngWizzy » Sat May 9, 2020 1:46 am

Hello everybody,

Tool: https://nbadraftcomp.herokuapp.com

I recently developed an NBA Draft Comparison tool that has gained a good amount of popularity on Twitter by several draft analysts

The tool retrieves similar physical, statistical (per40), and advanced stat comparisons for any player dating back to the 2000 NBA Draft based on their position

Note: Advanced stats only go back to the 2011 Draft and there are currently only limited physical comparisons for some of the 2020 prospects as the combine hasn't reported official measurements. Additionally, if you cannot find a player in the stats, visuals, or advanced pages you can enter their sports-reference url and the site will generate the comparisons then.

If you end up seeing this, any feedback/comments/suggestions that you have or would like me to add a feature to the website is something that I'd appreciate a whole lot. You can dm me here but preferable on twitter:youngwizzydfs and I will respond asap.

The experience is a lot better on desktop/laptop than mobile which is something I am working on right now

If you don't mind sharing the tool with your friends and people that would mean a whole lot as it could lead to potential donations to my site that will help keep it up! Been working on this for a few years now so it's been one hell of a roller coaster ride!

Per 40 stat comparison can be found here: https://nbadraftcomp.herokuapp.com/stats

Image


Advanced stat comparisons can be found here: https://nbadraftcomp.herokuapp.com/advanced

Image


Physical comparisons can be found here: https://nbadraftcomp.herokuapp.com/measurements

Image


A visualizations page which visualizes how a player compares to their position can be found here: https://nbadraftcomp.herokuapp.com/visuals

Image


Twitter: @youngwizzydfs
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 4) 

Post#294 » by 3toheadmelo » Sat May 9, 2020 1:58 am

HarthorneWingo wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
I think Edwards and Frank would make for a nice ying/yang backcourt tandem. Frank’s turning the corner imo

Frank is improving but his numbers and eye test scream bench player. I would hope we get Cade Cunningham next year if we got Edwards. Frank as backup guard.


I not ready to concede that just yet. I want to see how Frank improves on what was beginning to do before the ended. I’m not saying that you’re wrong necessarily. I just think next year we’ll find out more. This is why I prefer Haliburton for our pick.

If you continue to keep recycling players through the draft, then you’re going to wind up chasing you tail.

Frank had an opportunity to keep the starting job but he lost it to Payton. That’s on him. He should’ve capitalized on that opportunity but he failed. DSJ also should’ve won the starting job as well but he failed too. I am afraid the ship has sailed for both of them. Knicks seem locked in to take a point guard no matter where they land in the draft.
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 4) 

Post#295 » by robillionaire » Sat May 9, 2020 2:01 am

Begley all but confirmed the Knicks are going to trade up for lamelo :)
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 4) 

Post#296 » by HarthorneWingo » Sat May 9, 2020 2:37 am

3toheadmelo wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:Frank is improving but his numbers and eye test scream bench player. I would hope we get Cade Cunningham next year if we got Edwards. Frank as backup guard.


I not ready to concede that just yet. I want to see how Frank improves on what was beginning to do before the ended. I’m not saying that you’re wrong necessarily. I just think next year we’ll find out more. This is why I prefer Haliburton for our pick.

If you continue to keep recycling players through the draft, then you’re going to wind up chasing you tail.

Frank had an opportunity to keep the starting job but he lost it to Payton. That’s on him. He should’ve capitalized on that opportunity but he failed. DSJ also should’ve won the starting job as well but he failed too. I am afraid the ship has sailed for both of them. Knicks seem locked in to take a point guard no matter where they land in the draft.


You act that Frank’s done developing. He clearly isn’t. Losing the job to Payton means nothing since Miller decided to play the vets. But that would’ve changed had the season continued especially given Frank’s improving play and increased confidence.
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 4) 

Post#297 » by reub » Sat May 9, 2020 2:38 am

CP3
RJ
Nesmith
Wood
Mitch

That's a team. The modern NBA requires 3pt shooting.
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 4) 

Post#298 » by 3toheadmelo » Sat May 9, 2020 2:49 am

HarthorneWingo wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
I not ready to concede that just yet. I want to see how Frank improves on what was beginning to do before the ended. I’m not saying that you’re wrong necessarily. I just think next year we’ll find out more. This is why I prefer Haliburton for our pick.

If you continue to keep recycling players through the draft, then you’re going to wind up chasing you tail.

Frank had an opportunity to keep the starting job but he lost it to Payton. That’s on him. He should’ve capitalized on that opportunity but he failed. DSJ also should’ve won the starting job as well but he failed too. I am afraid the ship has sailed for both of them. Knicks seem locked in to take a point guard no matter where they land in the draft.


You act that Frank’s done developing. He clearly isn’t. Losing the job to Payton means nothing since Miller decided to play the vets. But that would’ve changed had the season continued especially given Frank’s improving play and increased confidence.

The dude averaged 6.3 ppg 3.0 assists on poor efficiency. I am not sure why you are putting high expectations on Frank like he is about to breakout and be a top guard in the league. He is about to enter his 4th year in the league and has shown minimal growth since his rookie year.

Frank isn’t done developing. He’s getting better. But it’s clear that he’s a bench player and nothing more than that.
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 4) 

Post#299 » by Worst_to_First » Sat May 9, 2020 2:50 am

3toheadmelo wrote:
Worst_to_First wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:Yeah -_-

If we get Coleslaw then we need a coach like Kenny Atkinson to develop him. Or he’s gonna end up like DSJ.


Who do you think fam is better?

Cole Anthony or Coby White?

I think Cole. I was pretty low on Coby as a prospect. I am low on Cole as well but I think he is more talented


It might be premature but I made a mistake in liking Garland the most among the PG prospects in the 2019 draft.

So far Coby has looked more promising than Garland and that is why I do not trust myself in terms of looking at point guards, at least not as much as bigs and wings.

What I don’t like is for us to get Ja envy and box ourselves into looking for the next star PG in this draft. In my opinion that next stud PG is in the 2021 class.

If Wiseman is available I’d take him and run. I’d study and explore doing to RJ what the Heat did with Winslow in terms of making him the PG. Then put Frank beside RJ for matching up purposes.
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 4) 

Post#300 » by 8516knicks » Sat May 9, 2020 2:56 am

youngWizzy wrote:Hello everybody,

Tool: https://nbadraftcomp.herokuapp.com

I recently developed an NBA Draft Comparison tool that has gained a good amount of popularity on Twitter by several draft analysts

The tool retrieves similar physical, statistical (per40), and advanced stat comparisons for any player dating back to the 2000 NBA Draft based on their position

Note: Advanced stats only go back to the 2011 Draft and there are currently only limited physical comparisons for some of the 2020 prospects as the combine hasn't reported official measurements. Additionally, if you cannot find a player in the stats, visuals, or advanced pages you can enter their sports-reference url and the site will generate the comparisons then.

If you end up seeing this, any feedback/comments/suggestions that you have or would like me to add a feature to the website is something that I'd appreciate a whole lot. You can dm me here but preferable on twitter:youngwizzydfs and I will respond asap.

The experience is a lot better on desktop/laptop than mobile which is something I am working on right now

If you don't mind sharing the tool with your friends and people that would mean a whole lot as it could lead to potential donations to my site that will help keep it up! Been working on this for a few years now so it's been one hell of a roller coaster ride!

Per 40 stat comparison can be found here: https://nbadraftcomp.herokuapp.com/stats

Image


Advanced stat comparisons can be found here: https://nbadraftcomp.herokuapp.com/advanced

Image


Physical comparisons can be found here: https://nbadraftcomp.herokuapp.com/measurements

Image


A visualizations page which visualizes how a player compares to their position can be found here: https://nbadraftcomp.herokuapp.com/visuals

Image





Thanks for your hard work. Very interesting. (still a bit wonky; has Cassius Stanley playing for Michigan State [Cassius Winston]

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