How Good Would Tim Duncan and Grant Hill Have Been?

Big NBA Fan · Post #1 » by **Big NBA Fan** » Thu May 21, 2020 2:57 pm

Let's say Duncan signed with Orlando in 2000 and Grant Hill was healthy going into 2001 after his spectacular 2000 RS.

I think we all agree they would have made the Finals over Philly (Even without T-Mac) that season and I think they would have co-existed well off-the-court due to the fact that both were low-ego, low-maintenance players.

Do they beat Shaq/Kobe in 2001? Would they have been a better duo than 95 Shaq/Penny?

I say yes. Hill was as good as Penny back in his prime and I have Tim higher than Shaq on the ATG list. I have Duncan in my Top 5 while Shaq is around the bottom part of the Top 10.

Duncan was the MVP runner-up in 2001 and won it back to back in 02 and 03; he also won the 03 title without a # 2 option anywhere near as good as Prime Grant Hill.

Tim made the right decision to stay, but how good do you think him and Grant would have been?

Post #2 » by **Texas Chuck** » Thu May 21, 2020 3:14 pm

Well any team with Tim Duncan was going to be an elite contender. So yeah Orlando would have been really good and by far the best team in the East.

cecilthesheep · Post #3 » by **cecilthesheep** » Thu May 21, 2020 5:26 pm

As a duo, they would absolutely have been better than Shaq and Kobe. How many titles they won would be dependent on who Orlando surrounded them with, and later on, how much Hill developed his outside shot.

KobesScarf · Post #4 » by **KobesScarf** » Thu May 21, 2020 5:54 pm

They would incredible but not better than Kobe and Shaq especially not with an inexperienced Doc Rivers

O_6 · Post #5 » by **O_6** » Thu May 21, 2020 6:00 pm

Kobe in the '01 playoffs reached a higher level than Grant Hill ever played at during his career. The '01 Magic with a Duncan/Bo Outlaw/Hill/Mike Miller/Armstrong lineup would have been very good though. I think a '01 LA vs. '01 ORL series would have been a war but Shaq was still the best player in the world + Kobe was playing at such a high level during that playoff run that I'd go with LA that year if both squads are healthy.

I think it's a repeat Finals matchup in 2002. But with Duncan closing the gap and arguably passing Shaq by '02, the Magic would arguably have the best player on the floor. And Kobe wasn't as good during the '02 playoff run. That along with Mike Miller improving gives the Magic a better shot in the series. But I don't see anyone who can really defend Kobe, I could still see Kobe going off in the '02 Finals. It would be close matchup but I think the Magic pull it off in 2002.

As Duncan peaks in 2003 with Hill in his prime and Miller entering his prime, the Magic win it all despite Armstrong declining.

However by 2004, the Magic's roster is terrible besides Duncan/Hill/Miller. They'd still be the favorite in the East and I think they'd be better than the Pacers but the Pistons with Rasheed would give them hell. Rasheed always defended Duncan well. Even if you think the Magic could get past the Pistons in a 7 game war, I don't think they'd beat the Shaq/Malone/Kobe/Payton Lakers.

In 2005, as Hill turns 32 they probably have their last chance at a real run to the Finals. But the Shaq/Wade Heat are probably better, and the Pistons are probably better. They might beat one of those teams in a series, but I can't see them beating both.

So...

2001: Finals Loss (slight underdog vs. Lakers)
2002: Championship (slight favorite vs. Lakers)
2003: Championship (slight favorite vs. Lakers)
2004: ECF Loss (slight underdog vs. Pistons/Lakers)
2005: ECSF Loss (underdog vs. Heat/Pistons/Suns)

2006, Hill is 33 and the Magic need to revamp to become contenders again.

Obviously a lot of assumptions are being made here. Maybe the Lakers duo of Shaq/Kobe breaks up earlier if the Magic can beat them in '02, winning titles is what kept those 2 together. Maybe the Magic FO does a better job with roster construction around Duncan/Hill than the crap they provided McGrady after '02.

oaktownwarriors87 · Post #6 » by **oaktownwarriors87** » Thu May 21, 2020 6:01 pm

cecilthesheep wrote:As a duo, they would absolutely have been better than Shaq and Kobe.

cecilthesheep · Post #7 » by **cecilthesheep** » Thu May 21, 2020 6:16 pm

oaktownwarriors87 wrote:
cecilthesheep wrote:As a duo, they would absolutely have been better than Shaq and Kobe.

...

Don't see how this is controversial tbh. Tim won two MVPs over Shaq during the exact time period we're talking about, and we're assuming Hill doesn't get hurt and fully develops into what he could have been, which I think is better than (or at least as good as) early-00s Kobe. I also think Tim's and Grant's skill sets are more complimentary, to say nothing of their personalities.

Ryoga Hibiki · Post #8 » by **Ryoga Hibiki** » Fri May 22, 2020 2:15 pm

cecilthesheep wrote:
oaktownwarriors87 wrote:
cecilthesheep wrote:As a duo, they would absolutely have been better than Shaq and Kobe.

...

Don't see how this is controversial tbh. Tim won two MVPs over Shaq during the exact time period we're talking about, and we're assuming Hill doesn't get hurt and fully develops into what he could have been, which I think is better than (or at least as good as) early-00s Kobe. I also think Tim's and Grant's skill sets are more complimentary, to say nothing of their personalities.

That "absolutely" is absolutely controversial.
Believing that Timmeh+Hill>Shaq+Kobe isn't.

LakerLegend · Post #9 » by **LakerLegend** » Fri May 22, 2020 7:12 pm

cecilthesheep wrote:
oaktownwarriors87 wrote:
cecilthesheep wrote:As a duo, they would absolutely have been better than Shaq and Kobe.

...

Don't see how this is controversial tbh. Tim won two MVPs over Shaq during the exact time period we're talking about, and we're assuming Hill doesn't get hurt and fully develops into what he could have been, which I think is better than (or at least as good as) early-00s Kobe. I also think Tim's and Grant's skill sets are more complimentary, to say nothing of their personalities.

By 2001 Kobe was better than Hill ever was, and Duncan was winning those MVP's because it was widely acknowledged that Shaq and Kobe being on the same team automatically discounted both of them from winning MVPs.

It was consensus that Shaq was the dominant player in the league.

AMW27 · Post #10 » by **AMW27** » Sat May 23, 2020 8:45 pm

I believe that Duncan and Hill couldve gotten at least one title. Shaq and Kobe most likely would've gotten in their way.

But here's something to think about. Duncan and Hill may eventually benefit from Shaq and Kobe breaking up.

Steven1562 · Post #11 » by **Steven1562** » Sun May 24, 2020 8:18 pm

The east version of Shaq and Kobe. I always thought Hills game was similar to Scottie Pippen. He could pass rebound score. Give Duncan a teammate like that and they would have ruled the east.

Hornet Mania · Post #12 » by **Hornet Mania** » Sun May 24, 2020 8:37 pm

There wasn't a team in the East that would have been better than the Duncan/Hill Magic from 01-03, so that makes at least three Finals appearances to work with.

-In 01 I think the Lakers beat them, they were absolutely rolling.
-In 02 I think the Magic could have made a run at it, I still give the edge to the Lakers though.
-In 03 Duncan knocked off the Lakers, I think history rhymes with the Magic ending the Lakers shot at a 4peat in the 03 Finals.

From 04 forward there's just no telling. Detroit, Shaq/Wade and then Boston/Lebron were all more formidable than any of he 01-03 contenders in the East so the Finals would no longer be a certainty.

Post #13 » by **Clyde Frazier** » Mon May 25, 2020 1:50 am

Imagine some magic vs raps playoff series with Duncan/hill and McGrady/Carter if they all stayed healthy. Raps would need a good defensive anchor too but it'd be a lot of fun.

Dmkorc23 · Post #14 » by **Dmkorc23** » Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:54 am

It would be Lakers vs Magic seasons after seasons. As for who comes up on top, it pretty much depends on how Orlando builds around them. The rest of the Magic roster was pretty terrible which we have already saw.

O_6 wrote:Kobe in the '01 playoffs reached a higher level than Grant Hill ever played at during his career. T

I am a huge Kobe fan but to be fair to Hill, Kobe had superior teammates and you know, basketball is a team sport. Having quality teammates definitely helps your game.

Hal14 · Post #15 » by **Hal14** » Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:10 pm

cecilthesheep wrote:
oaktownwarriors87 wrote:
cecilthesheep wrote:As a duo, they would absolutely have been better than Shaq and Kobe.

...

Don't see how this is controversial tbh. Tim won two MVPs over Shaq during the exact time period we're talking about, and we're assuming Hill doesn't get hurt and fully develops into what he could have been, which I think is better than (or at least as good as) early-00s Kobe. I also think Tim's and Grant's skill sets are more complimentary, to say nothing of their personalities.

Why are we assuming that? Just because he has Duncan as a teammate, that somehow means Hill stays healthy and doesn't become one of the most injury plagued players of his era? That seems like quite a leap.

cecilthesheep · Post #16 » by **cecilthesheep** » Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:38 am

Hal14 wrote:
cecilthesheep wrote:
oaktownwarriors87 wrote:
...

Don't see how this is controversial tbh. Tim won two MVPs over Shaq during the exact time period we're talking about, and we're assuming Hill doesn't get hurt and fully develops into what he could have been, which I think is better than (or at least as good as) early-00s Kobe. I also think Tim's and Grant's skill sets are more complimentary, to say nothing of their personalities.

Why are we assuming that? Just because he has Duncan as a teammate, that somehow means Hill stays healthy and doesn't become one of the most injury plagued players of his era? That seems like quite a leap.

because the OP says to assume that Hill is healthy?

Matt15 · Post #17 » by **Matt15** » Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:28 am

Very good but still not enough to overcome Kobe/Shaq

Hal14 · Post #18 » by **Hal14** » Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:17 pm

cecilthesheep wrote:
Hal14 wrote:
cecilthesheep wrote:Don't see how this is controversial tbh. Tim won two MVPs over Shaq during the exact time period we're talking about, and we're assuming Hill doesn't get hurt and fully develops into what he could have been, which I think is better than (or at least as good as) early-00s Kobe. I also think Tim's and Grant's skill sets are more complimentary, to say nothing of their personalities.

Why are we assuming that? Just because he has Duncan as a teammate, that somehow means Hill stays healthy and doesn't become one of the most injury plagued players of his era? That seems like quite a leap.

because the OP says to assume that Hill is healthy?

Oh ok, missed that part in the original post. Not sure why we would assume that, again a very big leap to make, so guess I should have replied to the OP instead of you..

HeartBreakKid · Post #19 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Thu Jul 2, 2020 12:07 am

Hal14 wrote:
cecilthesheep wrote:
Hal14 wrote:
Why are we assuming that? Just because he has Duncan as a teammate, that somehow means Hill stays healthy and doesn't become one of the most injury plagued players of his era? That seems like quite a leap.

because the OP says to assume that Hill is healthy?

Oh ok, missed that part in the original post. Not sure why we would assume that, again a very big leap to make, so guess I should have replied to the OP instead of you..

Because it is the given...and it is a hypothetical scenario.

benson13 · Post #20 » by **benson13** » Fri Jul 3, 2020 7:17 pm

Hal14 wrote:
cecilthesheep wrote:
Hal14 wrote:
Why are we assuming that? Just because he has Duncan as a teammate, that somehow means Hill stays healthy and doesn't become one of the most injury plagued players of his era? That seems like quite a leap.

because the OP says to assume that Hill is healthy?

Oh ok, missed that part in the original post. Not sure why we would assume that, again a very big leap to make, so guess I should have replied to the OP instead of you..

It doesn't seem like a stretch to assume that asking how good Duncan and Hill would have been together implies they're both healthy and playing. If Hill is injured then we're just asking how good Duncan is.

Assuming the rest of league history stays the same.

I don't think they would have beaten LA in 2001. That team was just too locked in. I think they'd run in back 02 and Orlando would win and then again in 03. They'd have a good shot at winning it in any given season until around 2008. I think Grant's age would be showing at that point and the combination of Boston's superteam and the rise of LeBron and Dwight would eliminate them as serious contenders.