2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 4)

[HEZI]

Yeah I agree that he impressive range, I give him that. My concern is that because his form is low and slow and he doesn’t have the handle or first step to create space he can’t shoot off the dribble. And he will have it harder than ever against NBA defenses. Doesn’t apply to THJ and Rozier. I think he will still be a pretty good shooter and hit his open looks, but I think you need to be more dynamic with your shot creation to be considered elite and I don’t see that happening

His shot is not slow at all whatsoever. Not sure what you are seeing but he has one of the quickest releases out there. Very little motion and doesn't even dip the ball and he lets the fly in a split second.

His release is quick the wind up form into the release is dreadful. Actually pulling that off when he has to put the ball on the floor and create off the bounce and shoot off screens might be hard to watch Once he hits the NBA.. Even in the pick and roll he sheds some weaknesses he is shy of contact When he drives (more of a strength issue) never goes left and doesn’t shoot much free throws. So he will be really reliant on the jumper, if he can still shoot it at a high level in the NBA great if not his game becomes watered down by a lot imo

He is a system player to me somebody you really draft when you have a team already in place that has a decent form of structure/playstyle and looking for another glue piece to fit into it. He would look really good on the hawks next to Trae young Or on the warriors.

I’d take him because I really like his chances of being a high quality elite role player but not because he rubs off as BPA.

That doesn't mean you attach assets to move up to draft a guy and force him to be a primary scoring option when he has no business being one. Moving assets to get Lamelo to be a scorer when he's not that good of one is just a bad idea and we are better off taking that role player like Haliburton and saving assets for an actual star scorer when we are going to need one with Lamelo anyways. Watching Lamelo shoot bricks night in and night out is going to be tough.

[bleedblue3303]

I wish we could come out this draft with Lamelo and Wiseman

I actually think we could but the question is what are you willing to give up.
For example if GS is drafting and we offer Mitch and 27 for Lamelo. I think they would listen. And we have to be in a postion to draft Wiseman. But are you confident Wiseman will be better than Mitch. I keep going back and forth.

[HEZI]

Yeah I may have to look into it a little more, he is someone I’ve admittedly not watched a ton of outside of some highlight reels. it’s definitely low though which maybe to me looked like sort of a wind-up motion

There are some articles that describe it as slow but Spencer Pearlman in his scouting report describes it as quick and he knows his stuff other than thinking Mikal and Culver were going to be good

“Take, for instance, his jumper. Haliburton is, by any account, just a terrific shooter with deep, deep range. When he’s given time and space, he’s deadly. According to Synergy, he ranks in the 99th percentile in spot-up shooting and in the 98th percentile in catch-and-shoot situations, checking it at 1.493 points-per-possession (PPP).

But he has a long, slow and low release. His feet are positioned awkwardly. The mechanics are not ideal, and this really shows up when Haliburton is forced to shoot off of the dribble, where he ranked in the 35th percentile nationally this past season at 0.684 PPP. That’s a drastic difference, and it’s exacerbated by the fact that Haliburton can struggle to consistently turn the corner against good defenders. When you can’t beat a man, you’re forced to shoot a midrange pull-up, often contested. That’s a suboptimal outcome for any player on any possession, let alone a guy that shoots 49 percent off the catch and 28 percent off the dribble.”

https://collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/2020/04/27/tyrese-haliburton-2020-nba-draft-propsect-breakdown/amp/

I guess when I re-watch it, I agree with you that it doesn’t look all that slow, but I still have the same concerns

This idea of "low" release being a negative thing is outdated. Low releases are ideal for range. High releases work better for closer shots and mid range but in order to have the right amount of arc and accuracy to pull of long distance shots it's more ideal to shoot what is considered "low" release. His release isn't slow, again he gets it off in a split second on the catch. Off the dribble is a different story but more often than not when he decides to put the ball on the floor and make something happen he's looking to dish it off to either a roller or to a shooter outside on the kick out. Personally I don't care where he ranks in terms of shooting mid range jumpers off the dribble, we don't need that from him anyways. If you pair him with RJ then we already know that the mid range and middle are going to be RJs working space and Mitchell Robinson's diving lanes.

Who do you think would be a better fit between he and Cole

Cole

[Fat]

His shot is not slow at all whatsoever. Not sure what you are seeing but he has one of the quickest releases out there. Very little motion and doesn't even dip the ball and he lets the fly in a split second.

His release is quick the wind up form into the release is dreadful. Actually pulling that off when he has to put the ball on the floor and create off the bounce and shoot off screens might be hard to watch Once he hits the NBA.. Even in the pick and roll he sheds some weaknesses he is shy of contact When he drives (more of a strength issue) never goes left and doesn’t shoot much free throws. So he will be really reliant on the jumper, if he can still shoot it at a high level in the NBA great if not his game becomes watered down by a lot imo

He is a system player to me somebody you really draft when you have a team already in place that has a decent form of structure/playstyle and looking for another glue piece to fit into it. He would look really good on the hawks next to Trae young Or on the warriors.

I’d take him because I really like his chances of being a high quality elite role player but not because he rubs off as BPA.

That doesn't mean you attach assets to move up to draft a guy and force him to be a primary scoring option when he has no business being one. Moving assets to get Lamelo to be a scorer when he's not that good of one is just a bad idea and we are better off taking that role player like Haliburton and saving assets for an actual star scorer when we are going to need one with Lamelo anyways. Watching Lamelo shoot bricks night in and night out is going to be tough.

Guess it depends how much the Knicks like him

If we had the 4th pick and lamelo is there at 3 would you do 4 and 27 for the 3rd pick Or stay at 4 and draft somebody else.

[HarthorneWingo]

I dont know if RJ would be a great primary handler. He has a OK court vision and passing skills. Very few fantastic pass to be considered a craft playmaker and too many turnovers to be a "safe playmaker".

I fear people see his bad shooting and just think "make him a point foward" Just like Frank his court position would not be based on his skills but his deficiencies.

Yeah, make him the primary ball handler. Wait ..

Sorry, I am foreign. How do I name the player who has the ball in his hand most of the time? Main ball handler?

Ha! I understood what you said perfectly. Your English is fine. It’s your idea I wasn’t fond of.

We have now bonded as Knicks brothers! Now that I know you are French I will name you “Rocket Richard.” And leave RJ at the 3.

[HEZI]

His release is quick the wind up form into the release is dreadful. Actually pulling that off when he has to put the ball on the floor and create off the bounce and shoot off screens might be hard to watch Once he hits the NBA.. Even in the pick and roll he sheds some weaknesses he is shy of contact When he drives (more of a strength issue) never goes left and doesn’t shoot much free throws. So he will be really reliant on the jumper, if he can still shoot it at a high level in the NBA great if not his game becomes watered down by a lot imo

He is a system player to me somebody you really draft when you have a team already in place that has a decent form of structure/playstyle and looking for another glue piece to fit into it. He would look really good on the hawks next to Trae young Or on the warriors.

I’d take him because I really like his chances of being a high quality elite role player but not because he rubs off as BPA.

That doesn't mean you attach assets to move up to draft a guy and force him to be a primary scoring option when he has no business being one. Moving assets to get Lamelo to be a scorer when he's not that good of one is just a bad idea and we are better off taking that role player like Haliburton and saving assets for an actual star scorer when we are going to need one with Lamelo anyways. Watching Lamelo shoot bricks night in and night out is going to be tough.

Guess it depends how much the Knicks like him

If we had the 4th pick and lamelo is there at 3 would you do 4 and 27 for the 3rd pick Or stay at 4 and draft somebody else.

Stay at 4 or maybe even look to trade down

With the NBA going through changes and teams looking to save money, this might be our opportunity to land more proven NBA talent. I'd save my assets and if anything I'd look to gather even more if possible. If anything, try to gather as many 2021 first rounders as possible and chase Cade. He looks legit!

[HarthorneWingo]

That doesn't mean you attach assets to move up to draft a guy and force him to be a primary scoring option when he has no business being one. Moving assets to get Lamelo to be a scorer when he's not that good of one is just a bad idea and we are better off taking that role player like Haliburton and saving assets for an actual star scorer when we are going to need one with Lamelo anyways. Watching Lamelo shoot bricks night in and night out is going to be tough.

Guess it depends how much the Knicks like him

If we had the 4th pick and lamelo is there at 3 would you do 4 and 27 for the 3rd pick Or stay at 4 and draft somebody else.

Stay at 4 or maybe even look to trade down

With the NBA going through changes and teams looking to save money, this might be our opportunity to land more proven NBA talent. I'd save my assets and if anything I'd look to gather even more if possible. If anything, try to gather as many 2021 first rounders as possible and chase Cade. He looks legit!

This should called “The Tank Addicts Thread.” We can’t keep chasing our tail. We’re looking to make moves now. We won’t be in tank mode next season. No way, no how.

[HEZI]

Guess it depends how much the Knicks like him

If we had the 4th pick and lamelo is there at 3 would you do 4 and 27 for the 3rd pick Or stay at 4 and draft somebody else.

Stay at 4 or maybe even look to trade down

With the NBA going through changes and teams looking to save money, this might be our opportunity to land more proven NBA talent. I'd save my assets and if anything I'd look to gather even more if possible. If anything, try to gather as many 2021 first rounders as possible and chase Cade. He looks legit!

This should called “The Tank Addicts Thread.” We can’t keep chasing our tail. We’re looking to make moves now. We won’t be in tank mode next season. No way, no how.

Are you saying we will be a playoff team next season?

[HarthorneWingo]

Stay at 4 or maybe even look to trade down

With the NBA going through changes and teams looking to save money, this might be our opportunity to land more proven NBA talent. I'd save my assets and if anything I'd look to gather even more if possible. If anything, try to gather as many 2021 first rounders as possible and chase Cade. He looks legit!

This should called “The Tank Addicts Thread.” We can’t keep chasing our tail. We’re looking to make moves now. We won’t be in tank mode next season. No way, no how.

Are you saying we will be a playoff team next season?

If we keep the same players and coach, yes I do. A shoe-in? I wouldn’t go that far. But we have cap space, draft pick and some young talent. I like to think a reasonably competent NBA front office can improve our team by 10 games or more. Is that unreasonable in you opinion?

[thebuzzardman]

I dont know if RJ would be a great primary handler. He has a OK court vision and passing skills. Very few fantastic pass to be considered a craft playmaker and too many turnovers to be a "safe playmaker".

I fear people see his bad shooting and just think "make him a point foward" Just like Frank his court position would not be based on his skills but his deficiencies.

Yeah, make him the primary ball handler. Wait ..

Sorry, I am foreign. How do I name the player who has the ball in his hand most of the time? Main ball handler?

You call them Tom Brady

[robillionaire]

His release is quick the wind up form into the release is dreadful. Actually pulling that off when he has to put the ball on the floor and create off the bounce and shoot off screens might be hard to watch Once he hits the NBA.. Even in the pick and roll he sheds some weaknesses he is shy of contact When he drives (more of a strength issue) never goes left and doesn’t shoot much free throws. So he will be really reliant on the jumper, if he can still shoot it at a high level in the NBA great if not his game becomes watered down by a lot imo

He is a system player to me somebody you really draft when you have a team already in place that has a decent form of structure/playstyle and looking for another glue piece to fit into it. He would look really good on the hawks next to Trae young Or on the warriors.

I’d take him because I really like his chances of being a high quality elite role player but not because he rubs off as BPA.

That doesn't mean you attach assets to move up to draft a guy and force him to be a primary scoring option when he has no business being one. Moving assets to get Lamelo to be a scorer when he's not that good of one is just a bad idea and we are better off taking that role player like Haliburton and saving assets for an actual star scorer when we are going to need one with Lamelo anyways. Watching Lamelo shoot bricks night in and night out is going to be tough.

Guess it depends how much the Knicks like him

If we had the 4th pick and lamelo is there at 3 would you do 4 and 27 for the 3rd pick Or stay at 4 and draft somebody else.

That’s when Lavar is going to have to work his magic and say my boy is only going to work out for the knicks and not the other 3 teams

[knickstape21]

Hard not to like LaMelo Ball. He’s electric and the Knicks neeeeeed some juice.

Just worried about the media stuff and Lavar. Whether you dismiss it or not, there will be quotes that the media will hammer on.

“Lavar says Barrett needs to ‘take a seat’ after rough 3 game stretch”

ESPN, bleacher report, everyone just hammering at that crap. No matter how you slice it, this won’t be good.

[TheGreenArrow]

LaMelo ball folks LaMelo ball.

[Zenzibar]

Just wanted to post up what some of our advisories on teams RealGm are saying about their preferences in the 2020 draft.

Boston Celtics:
At #17, this is my current order of preference. There are others I like in this draft more but they will almost certainly not be there at 17.

Aaron Nesmith
Tyrese Maxey
Devin Vassell
Saddiq Bey
Patrick Williams
Theo Maledon

I think Nesmith, Maxey, Vassell, and Bey will also be gone unfortunately. But I think one of Williams and Maledon will be there.

People are currently sleeping on Maledon. He doesn't seem to have the statistical record to rise to the top of the draft but when you watch him play, he screams potential. He's got a good strong base and he moves really well with the ball in his hands. He would do so well in CBS system. His ability to drive and dish or finish is exactly what CBS looks for. He'll open up a lot perimeter shooters. He is a legit BIG point guard. Langford has decent hanldes but is more SG. Maledon can run an offense and he also plays solid defense.

Maledon is definitely moving up my wish list.

=====
How about this as our draft class?

#17 Kira Lewis
#26 Xavier Tillman
#30 Cassius Stanley


Not sure if that's too high for Kira, but his quickness and finishing ability are tantalizing. Tillman is a modern day big who plays hard and could play right away. And Stanley's athleticism is off the charts.

Brooklyn Nets: Seems like they are all in for trading their picks.

TheNetsFan wrote:
MrDollarBills wrote:
TheNetsFan wrote:
"Discussed Internally" is the lamest thing I have ever heard. I'm sure the Nets have had internal discussions on half the league & the entire draft class. That being said, you have to figure there will be veterans lined up to chase a ring should we need replenish depth after a big trade. That makes even a slight overpay for a star more palatable.


With a cap contraction how will we be able to replenish depth? Unless guys will come running for minimum contracts?

Very few teams would have any space. MLEs will be lower. Players may be more willing to ring chase on minimums in a down salary year.


Orlando Magic:
How do you guys think of this one: Haowen Guo from China. He is only 20 years old and has attended 2019 Nike Hoop Summit. He was the leading scorer in the U19 FIBA World Cup and he will be eligible in the Class of 2022. Dude is 6'7 and plays PG. Great ball skills and speed. Could be a first round pick.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Why isn't he eligible to be drafted now? He's old enough, right? Or still under contract in China?

Looks promising. A player of that height with those skills. But, he's also playing against boys and dominating them because he's so much physically bigger than them.

Could be a good stash prospect? Could also be good to have one of China's better players in terms of marketability for the team and putting us on the map internationally at least. But considering there's brewing tensions between the nations and the Magic's owners are staunch Republicans, I don't see them being inclined to cross the picket line, so to speak.

It is not America and China. It is just Donald Trump's administration, because he is losing this election 2020 because of Coronavirus.

Guo will be a good player. He is quick and tall. Could he be a lottery pick?

Do you think we can retain Joe for cheap now since the money will basically be nonexistent?

=====

“Better prospect” is in the eye of the beholder.

- Edwards is an uber elite athlete at the combo guard spot with comparisons to Dwayne Wade.

- Vassell is a productive 3&D role player with a high floor and low ceiling.


Will Edwards make the most of his athletic gifts and translate them into basketball skills? I don’t know but I do know NBA GMs are arrogant and will draft the unteachable assets over the safe bet 9/10.

[HEZI]

This should called “The Tank Addicts Thread.” We can’t keep chasing our tail. We’re looking to make moves now. We won’t be in tank mode next season. No way, no how.

Are you saying we will be a playoff team next season?

If we keep the same players and coach, yes I do. A shoe-in? I wouldn’t go that far. But we have cap space, draft pick and some young talent. I like to think a reasonably competent NBA front office can improve our team by 10 games or more. Is that unreasonable in you opinion?

As long as they can't shoot, struggle to score and feature Julius Randle they wont make it

[robillionaire]

Are you saying we will be a playoff team next season?

If we keep the same players and coach, yes I do. A shoe-in? I wouldn’t go that far. But we have cap space, draft pick and some young talent. I like to think a reasonably competent NBA front office can improve our team by 10 games or more. Is that unreasonable in you opinion?

As long as they can't shoot, struggle to score and feature Julius Randle they wont make it

The Knicks won’t make the playoffs and that’s good because we will need at least one more high draft pick

[knickstape21]

If we keep the same players and coach, yes I do. A shoe-in? I wouldn’t go that far. But we have cap space, draft pick and some young talent. I like to think a reasonably competent NBA front office can improve our team by 10 games or more. Is that unreasonable in you opinion?

As long as they can't shoot, struggle to score and feature Julius Randle they wont make it

The Knicks won’t make the playoffs and that’s good because we will need at least one more high draft pick

2021 draft will change the Knicks forever if we just tank one more season. Going to be special.

[malik959]

Yeah I agree that he impressive range, I give him that. My concern is that because his form is low and slow and he doesn’t have the handle or first step to create space he can’t shoot off the dribble. And he will have it harder than ever against NBA defenses. Doesn’t apply to THJ and Rozier. I think he will still be a pretty good shooter and hit his open looks, but I think you need to be more dynamic with your shot creation to be considered elite and I don’t see that happening

His shot is not slow at all whatsoever. Not sure what you are seeing but he has one of the quickest releases out there. Very little motion and doesn't even dip the ball and he lets the fly in a split second.

His release is quick the wind up form into the release is dreadful. Actually pulling that off when he has to put the ball on the floor and create off the bounce and shoot off screens might be hard to watch Once he hits the NBA.. Even in the pick and roll he sheds some weaknesses he is shy of contact When he drives (more of a strength issue) never goes left and doesn’t shoot much free throws. So he will be really reliant on the jumper, if he can still shoot it at a high level in the NBA great if not his game becomes watered down by a lot imo

He is a system player to me somebody you really draft when you have a team already in place that has a decent form of structure/playstyle and looking for another glue piece to fit into it. He would look really good on the hawks next to Trae young Or on the warriors.

I’d take him because I really like his chances of being a high quality elite role player but not because he rubs off as BPA.

He has a push shot that is released at his head instead of being fully extended out. Because of that it is very quick. He's actually very good with it that you wonder if it would be a bad idea to change it

[thebuzzardman]

His shot is not slow at all whatsoever. Not sure what you are seeing but he has one of the quickest releases out there. Very little motion and doesn't even dip the ball and he lets the fly in a split second.

Yeah I may have to look into it a little more, he is someone I’ve admittedly not watched a ton of outside of some highlight reels. it’s definitely low though which maybe to me looked like sort of a wind-up motion

There are some articles that describe it as slow but Spencer Pearlman in his scouting report describes it as quick and he knows his stuff other than thinking Mikal and Culver were going to be good

“Take, for instance, his jumper. Haliburton is, by any account, just a terrific shooter with deep, deep range. When he’s given time and space, he’s deadly. According to Synergy, he ranks in the 99th percentile in spot-up shooting and in the 98th percentile in catch-and-shoot situations, checking it at 1.493 points-per-possession (PPP).

But he has a long, slow and low release. His feet are positioned awkwardly. The mechanics are not ideal, and this really shows up when Haliburton is forced to shoot off of the dribble, where he ranked in the 35th percentile nationally this past season at 0.684 PPP. That’s a drastic difference, and it’s exacerbated by the fact that Haliburton can struggle to consistently turn the corner against good defenders. When you can’t beat a man, you’re forced to shoot a midrange pull-up, often contested. That’s a suboptimal outcome for any player on any possession, let alone a guy that shoots 49 percent off the catch and 28 percent off the dribble.”

https://collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/2020/04/27/tyrese-haliburton-2020-nba-draft-propsect-breakdown/amp/

I guess when I re-watch it, I agree with you that it doesn’t look all that slow, but I still have the same concerns

This idea of "low" release being a negative thing is outdated. Low releases are ideal for range. High releases work better for closer shots and mid range but in order to have the right amount of arc and accuracy to pull of long distance shots it's more ideal to shoot what is considered "low" release. His release isn't slow, again he gets it off in a split second on the catch. Off the dribble is a different story but more often than not when he decides to put the ball on the floor and make something happen he's looking to dish it off to either a roller or to a shooter outside on the kick out. Personally I don't care where he ranks in terms of shooting mid range jumpers off the dribble, we don't need that from him anyways. If you pair him with RJ then we already know that the mid range and middle are going to be RJs working space and Mitchell Robinson's diving lanes.

No expert, but to me, his release on his shot isn't slow at all but very quick. I specifically watched for it on highlight reels when he was playing off the ball.

Now, I'll admit to wanting LaMelo, and it just might be buying into the hype, because LaMelo, outside of IF he's talented enough, usually isn't the kind of player I'll necessarily go for, all things with another player being equal - the flash over substance guy, again, IF the other parts of his game don't translate. Which is why I got to having him ahead of Halliburton and Hayes in my mind - "oh, great handle and clearly he's talented" and then I've bought into he's top 2 talented.

Not waffling, just trying to understand where some of it comes from. I guess I'd really like the Knicks to get that flashy but good creative PG, and LaMelo seems to check those boxes.

But it's funny, since I've always been on the Frank bandwagon, even if he's probably a backup. Still always wanted him to get minutes. Why not? Even if the Knicks retained him as a backup, have it be as good a backup as possible. Anyway, and all the "age matters" etc

But if I like Frank for that "organize the offense, make the simple passes but make them pretty well, willing to play on and off the ball, willing to be a team player, defense" then I should be all over a young PG who is all that, but with a more developed and more aggressive driving game, not that that is a giant feature of Halliburton's game, it's just not the weakness that it is for Frank.
He's also a more creative passer and most importantly, his 3 point shot is established and good, which opens up lots of other things for him and the team.

Halliburton is my clear second PG i'd want, and I guess 3rd player in the draft, since I'd still be for Edwards, though maybe the Edwards/RJ pairing might not be the best.

Might be a case here where the Knicks and I'm better off if I don't get the player I wish for, LaMelo, and get the better player or higher floor player in Halliburton.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Why wouldn’t LaMelo and RJ fit?

14/5/2 next to Elfrid Payton a (20% LOL) 3 point shooter If season ended today. And within a roster that offered very little spacing

22/7/4 in college next to tre Jones who was a 26% 3 point shooter at the time

You really think he won’t fit with LaMelo? The difference is lamelo is a threat off the dribble and is also going to grant RJ as well as the rest of the team a lot more open efficient shots. You need a shot creator on the floor in the NBA especially if you don’t have any real shooting threats. The Knicks bail out button Marcus Morris is gone and even when we had him.. living and dying by Marcus Morris wasn’t successful basketball lol.

LaMelo is the closes in the draft outside of Edwards that has” Go to player” in his DNA. Whether that be creating a shot for himself or making the play for his teammates.

Both of them like to run and make the right passes. They will be instant showtime. Two high IQ versatile guards, what a time. Please get the right coach for these kids. I could see Lamelo only taking calls from the Knicks. It’s lining up too easily.

Yea, they could def work well together. RJ likes to run and LaMelo can get him good looks. Allow RJ to be more of a secondary facilitator. Just watching some Kidd highlights and how he would feed Jefferson/Kittle/VC/Kenyon/etc. Hate comparing anyone to Kidd, and LaMelo may not be on that level...just similar idea on how a pg can get players like that great looks.