Just Sad, "Chicago sees deadliest Memorial Day weekend in four years"

[dice]

So the question is what is their end game? Do they want it to where blacks can just simply commit whatever crimes they please with no repercussions?

you can answer that question yourself

the end game is fairly obvious to anyone paying attention. it's the same of that of black lives matter. it's to get black people the same respect from cops that white people get. it's so we can live in a world where black parents don't have to teach their children how not to get killed by cops for no reason ('cause white parents sure don't have to do that). it's so we can live in a world where black people don't have to fear for their safety when they get pulled over for no reason while driving

I hear you there. But respect is earned. 1 out of every 13 blacks is a violent criminal. For whites 1 out of every 105. That's a major gap that needs to be closed considerably. It also shows how different each are being raised.

no it doesn't. poverty is the primary driver of crime

now, single parent homes exist disproportionately in poverty, and they exist disproportionately in the black community, so if you want to call poor family planning "bad parenting" that's your prerogative, but i don't see it that way

[musiqsoulchild]

^ I'll take a look at these. The first three I wasn't familiar with.

Re: the last video, I can tell you that was in fact NOT the shop owner, and that he had charged that group of men with a sword before they stomped him out.

Honestly, you shouldnt even try to defend any of the anarchist actions Ashy.

For a small period of time, the protesters who are resorting to violence will hijack those that want change.

In the short term that is painful, but it brings attention. Trump is about to designate Antifa as a terrorist organization.

There will be change because of this. Positive change.

[AshyLarrysDiaper]

^ I'll take a look at these. The first three I wasn't familiar with.

Re: the last video, I can tell you that was in fact NOT the shop owner, and that he had charged that group of men with a sword before they stomped him out.

Honestly, you shouldnt even try to defend any of the anarchist actions Ashy.

For a small period of time, the protesters who are resorting to violence will hijack those that want change.

In the short term that is painful, but it brings attention. Trump is about to designate Antifa as a terrorist organization.

There will be change because of this. Positive change.

I don’t feel compelled to defend them. If anyone swings on an innocent person, that should be condemned. Does any of this come close to matching the scale of police violence, or invalidate the anger of people tired of being oppressed? No, absolutely not. Anyone arguing otherwise is on the wrong side of history.

[RedBulls23]

^ I'll take a look at these. The first three I wasn't familiar with.

Re: the last video, I can tell you that was in fact NOT the shop owner, and that he had charged that group of men with a sword before they stomped him out.

Andy Ngo is also known to be someone who has been caught selectively editing his footage in the past.

I don't trust anything that guy shares.

[League Circles]

This is how it is man. From the animal kingdom to the human race.

We follow norms and standards so that we can coexist peacefully and with safety.

Once that safety and peace are not being given, then there is no incentive to follow norms and standards.

Soooooo, which is it, should we act like animals or act civilized? I'm confused as to whether Noah's comment is a discription of the natural world or advocacy that we should act like animals and only interact according to group labels.....

We act in self interest. This is nothing new.

There are several groups and sub-groups that make us one American whole.

As long as each group and sub-group is being given its "societal contractual due" things are in equilibrium.

That is clearly NOT the case with policing and the black community.

That societal contract has not been upheld time after time.

WE ALL gave that cop the power to police over us. Because we believe that we need a 3rd party designated with the proper authority to keep us following our social obligation.

If that cop fails...REPEATEDLY..and the President calls us Thugs....then there is no obligation on our part to follow that social contract.

Agreed we act in self interest. We aren't several groups, we are infinite groups. Each of us individuals is a member of infinite groups. The so called social contract is IMO a fallacy. Nobody ever agreed to ****. All anybody ever did is push a button indicating the person they think is least likely to screw up the unfortunately necessary, but still immoral, power of force. There's never an obligation to follow a social contract IMO, only a moral obligation to be righteous, and attacking innocent people isn't righteous, hard stop. It can't be group vs group, cops vs POC. It HAS TO BE individuals and society vs individuals, and individuals and society working to improve policy. The group think dynamic at play CAN ONLY BE ADDRESSED THROUGH POLICY, not chants of labels. Many of the chants are warranted and more than understandable, they're righteous. But they get us nowhere IMO. The only thing that can get us somewhere with what you and Noah see as a group problem is through policy.

[AshyLarrysDiaper]

^ I'll take a look at these. The first three I wasn't familiar with.

Re: the last video, I can tell you that was in fact NOT the shop owner, and that he had charged that group of men with a sword before they stomped him out.

Andy Ngo is also known to be someone who has been caught selectively editing his footage in the past.

I don't trust anything that guy shares.

There’s that too.

[dice]

mall in calumet city being looted as i type this. in broad daylight

[Dominator83]

This is a looters paradise. This is exactly what I told my friend was gonna happen if we would've done a full on 100% Covid lockdown purge style with no services.

[Dominator83]

Even in that example, how can that teacher succeed if he doesnt have the tools to succeed?

Where is the budget for his school? Like the one a school in Wilmette or Niles have?

That's the true meaning of "Black Lives Matter".

The gap is systemic.

It doesn't matter what tools he has. If the kids don't care and have no respect, and the parents don't have his back, he can have the best tools on the planet and it won't make a difference. That's like giving E-robbery $32 million and expecting him to care about being a better basketball player.

ERob is not a bad example actually. He was given money.

But did he have the tools to succeed?

Shane Battier for example...less skilled than ERob. But made more in career earnings than ERob.

It starts from childhood and schooling.

The avenues open to kids and the time they can spend with parents are directly proportional to outcomes.

I used to like on the South Side. Everyday I would take the #4 bus to downtown. And then to university.

It took me 70 minutes to get there and 70 minutes back. I lost almost 3 hours a day just to educate myself for my Masters degree. And I HAVE privilege. I could afford a higher education.

I can't even imagine having to work for 8 dollars an hour in a McDonalds and spending 2 hours in commute. And then going home to take care of your kids in an engaged fashion.

These are not OBVIOUS examples of racism or classism.

These are deep rooted, fundamentally ingrained inequities in our system.

Free 4 year community college
Universal Basic Income
Equal access to quality education from childhood

These should the the NORM. Not some utopian dream of the future.

Your a civil and reasonable dude and I love you for that!

I still feel that the best tool a teacher can have, is the support of the parents. Like if I was a CPS teacher, what I would try to do before each year begins is, talk to each individual kids parents. Ask them if they want their kid to do well and succeed? If the answers yes, then I'll explain how I want to, and will, get them on the right path. But I need them to work WITH me, not against me. Like, I get that young kids are inherently foolish and unwise. But if their much wiser parents are on board, they can be steered in the right direction.

[League Circles]

OK, but I'm asking, where are the rioters/protesters physically attacking random people?

I'm glued to the news and social media and I haven't seen it. It feels like property damage is being conflated with violence against people, and those are two very different things.

It happened to my best friend last night in Madison, WI. See his store link in my sig. One of his employees was attacked while the store was being looted last night and had to go to the ER. I'm not going to share the publicly available pic of him laying on the ground in blood being admininstered first aid for privacy reasons.

As for the frequency of such physical attacks against innocent people, I don't know what it is and I'd accept and agree with the implication, if you're making it, that some media or social media types, maybe right leaning or whatever, is exaggerated. BUT, it IS happening, for sure, and is a perfectly acceptable thing to be upset about and criticize.

Obviously the property damage is less of a problem and more prevalent than physical attacks but is still a big problem and should not in any way be glossed over. It's not in any way okay to go bust into a store even a big box chain store and ruin everything that all those people worked hard for and the countless thousands that are relying on those companies for their retirements etc etc. There's no excuse. It doesn't matter how upset someone is. we have to treat each other's with the dignity of individuals. Unless someone had some evidence or something that Target was systematically involved in police brutality I don't know why anyone would accept the notion that it's okay to go in and loot Target. And again diluting doesn't need to be compared with the police brutality in severity. It is a separate issue with separate individuals to be considered.

There is evidence that Target (a company I worked for briefly) is systemically involved in police brutality.

https://slate.com/business/2020/05/targets-long-history-with-minneapolis-police.html

Beyond what's in that article, the company invited Rich Stanek, a then-candidate for Hennepin County Sheriff who admitted under oath that he regularly used the n-word, to speak at their corporate campus when I worked there. It's one of a handful of reasons I quit after just 7 months. Stanek won that election, by the way, in no small part due to the image reform companies like Target helped him with.

And say Target and stores like it weren't involved in systemic police violence. This country has a long history of property destruction in service of social aims. Some of the damage is targeted. Some of it is collateral. I truly wish local businesses like your friend's could be left alone, and that opportunists - many of which are white supremacists and undercover cops - would stay out of it. But it's never worked that way, unfortunately. You can't take the chaos out of social uprisings. The unpredictability of these protests, riots - whatever you want to call them - is both a bug and a feature.

Personally, my concern lies with the parties who are most responsible for hurting PEOPLE, and that has been the police. You look at the way they've pepper sprayed, driven over, shot, trampled, and beaten people who are protesting peacefully - or in some cases minding their own business, on their own property - and you wonder how many of them have been spoiling for this fight.

Thanks for sharing. I read the article about Target paying for surveillance. I think it's preposterous to criticize that. I think the FIRST THING WE SHOULD DO to curb police abuses of power is to put a camera and mic, that won't turn off, on every cops body, in every squad car, and on every street post (to the extent practical or affordable, though I view such things as more important investments than things like education, healthcare, etc so I'd think it should be afforded). I think surveillance is slightly creepy, but dreadfully needed. I reject the implication that increased surveillance has to enable increased injustices by police, EVEN IF that may have been considered a "pro" of surveillance installation by some in power. A camera can't hurt someone . We've GOT TO BE PRECISE. When a cop hurts someone, that is something that THAT COP did, and he should be investigated and prosecuted. THEN, SEPARATELY, we should enact policies to decrease, hopefully dramatically of course, the frequency of police abuse of power (we can never 100 % eliminate crimes by anyone including authority figures but hopefully we can come waaaaay closer).

The racist sheriff candidate story is completely different and very concerning. I wonder if there is more detail to consider such as when he admitted to being a racist (before or after invitation to speak at target, etc), but certainly I'll reserve any judgement on that one way or the other. I'll certainly allow that Target may have been a valid "target" for property damage (but I won't concede it just yet, nor is it particularly important so I'm not demanding that you give me more info or anything). Sometimes targets are legit, sometimes they arent. My friend wasn't FOR SURE, and cops sat by and LET IT HAPPEN due to an inept, incompetent attitude of "de-escalation".

Saying "that's how it's always been" regarding collateral damage in chaos is a cop out. How about the parrelel thought of "you can't take the unjust and often racial violence out of police work, it's inherent to human/primate structures of power, I wish the cops COULD be less racist, but that's the way it's always been".

You absolutely can, and millions do, peacefully protest. Btw, I'm not even a strict, unilateral philosophical objector to violent protests, but they AT LEAST would have to be violent against someone coherently responsible (definitely an officer Chauvin, maaaaaaaaybe Target, definitely not my friend).

No one should have to "own" or exempt indiscriminate violence, even by people with a legit beef, any more than anyone should have to own a murder committed by officer Chauvin. It's the fault of the INDIVIDUAL. All of the rest of us individuals, YOU AND ME, can and must stand together to condemn all of the other INDIVIDUALS, like Chauvin and the punks that attacked innocents, anywhere and everywhere. The only thing we can do, additionally, which we also MUST, is try to develop better POLICY to improve it at a population level. I've offered many examples in this thread of what I think important policy implementations would be. I'm happy to discuss any others, and maybe we could all get a petition together with some great bullet points, no joke. If you want to discuss further, please PM me and I'll give you my address and you can come over for a social distancing driveway beer and strategy session, today. Dead ass. I'm trying to form bonds and make progress fwiw, not be dismissive in a "have a strategy session with me or shut up" type of vibe, just to be clear. Intent sometimes comes through foggy in text, especially when emotions are understandably running high.

[Dominator83]

Edit. Sorry wrong thread. Was wondering what the hell happened to my Lavine post

[AshyLarrysDiaper]

It happened to my best friend last night in Madison, WI. See his store link in my sig. One of his employees was attacked while the store was being looted last night and had to go to the ER. I'm not going to share the publicly available pic of him laying on the ground in blood being admininstered first aid for privacy reasons.

As for the frequency of such physical attacks against innocent people, I don't know what it is and I'd accept and agree with the implication, if you're making it, that some media or social media types, maybe right leaning or whatever, is exaggerated. BUT, it IS happening, for sure, and is a perfectly acceptable thing to be upset about and criticize.

Obviously the property damage is less of a problem and more prevalent than physical attacks but is still a big problem and should not in any way be glossed over. It's not in any way okay to go bust into a store even a big box chain store and ruin everything that all those people worked hard for and the countless thousands that are relying on those companies for their retirements etc etc. There's no excuse. It doesn't matter how upset someone is. we have to treat each other's with the dignity of individuals. Unless someone had some evidence or something that Target was systematically involved in police brutality I don't know why anyone would accept the notion that it's okay to go in and loot Target. And again diluting doesn't need to be compared with the police brutality in severity. It is a separate issue with separate individuals to be considered.

There is evidence that Target (a company I worked for briefly) is systemically involved in police brutality.

https://slate.com/business/2020/05/targets-long-history-with-minneapolis-police.html

Beyond what's in that article, the company invited Rich Stanek, a then-candidate for Hennepin County Sheriff who admitted under oath that he regularly used the n-word, to speak at their corporate campus when I worked there. It's one of a handful of reasons I quit after just 7 months. Stanek won that election, by the way, in no small part due to the image reform companies like Target helped him with.

And say Target and stores like it weren't involved in systemic police violence. This country has a long history of property destruction in service of social aims. Some of the damage is targeted. Some of it is collateral. I truly wish local businesses like your friend's could be left alone, and that opportunists - many of which are white supremacists and undercover cops - would stay out of it. But it's never worked that way, unfortunately. You can't take the chaos out of social uprisings. The unpredictability of these protests, riots - whatever you want to call them - is both a bug and a feature.

Personally, my concern lies with the parties who are most responsible for hurting PEOPLE, and that has been the police. You look at the way they've pepper sprayed, driven over, shot, trampled, and beaten people who are protesting peacefully - or in some cases minding their own business, on their own property - and you wonder how many of them have been spoiling for this fight.

Thanks for sharing. I read the article about Target paying for surveillance. I think it's preposterous to criticize that. I think the FIRST THING WE SHOULD DO to curb police abuses of power is to put a camera and mic, that won't turn off, on every cops body, in every squad car, and on every street post (to the extent practical or affordable, though I view such things as more important investments than things like education, healthcare, etc so I'd think it should be afforded). I think surveillance is slightly creepy, but dreadfully needed. I reject the implication that increased surveillance has to enable increased injustices by police, EVEN IF that may have been considered a "pro" of surveillance installation by some in power. A camera can't hurt someone . We've GOT TO BE PRECISE. When a cop hurts someone, that is something that THAT COP did, and he should be investigated and prosecuted. THEN, SEPARATELY, we should enact policies to decrease, hopefully dramatically of course, the frequency of police abuse of power (we can never 100 % eliminate crimes by anyone including authority figures but hopefully we can come waaaaay closer).

The racist sheriff candidate story is completely different and very concerning. I wonder if there is more detail to consider such as when he admitted to being a racist (before or after invitation to speak at target, etc), but certainly I'll reserve any judgement on that one way or the other. I'll certainly allow that Target may have been a valid "target" for property damage (but I won't concede it just yet, nor is it particularly important so I'm not demanding that you give me more info or anything). Sometimes targets are legit, sometimes they arent. My friend wasn't FOR SURE, and cops sat by and LET IT HAPPEN due to an inept, incompetent attitude of "de-escalation".

Saying "that's how it's always been" regarding collateral damage in chaos is a cop out. How about the parrelel thought of "you can't take the unjust and often racial violence out of police work, it's inherent to human/primate structures of power, I wish the cops COULD be less racist, but that's the way it's always been".

You absolutely can, and millions do, peacefully protest. Btw, I'm not even a strict, unilateral philosophical objector to violent protests, but they AT LEAST would have to be violent against someone coherently responsible (definitely an officer Chauvin, maaaaaaaaybe Target, definitely not my friend).

No one should have to "own" or exempt indiscriminate violence, even by people with a legit beef, any more than anyone should have to own a murder committed by officer Chauvin. It's the fault of the INDIVIDUAL. All of the rest of us individuals, YOU AND ME, can and must stand together to condemn all of the other INDIVIDUALS, like Chauvin and the punks that attacked innocents, anywhere and everywhere. The only thing we can do, additionally, which we also MUST, is try to develop better POLICY to improve it at a population level. I've offered many examples in this thread of what I think important policy implementations would be. I'm happy to discuss any others, and maybe we could all get a petition together with some great bullet points, no joke. If you want to discuss further, please PM me and I'll give you my address and you can come over for a social distancing driveway beer and strategy session, today. Dead ass. I'm trying to form bonds and make progress fwiw, not be dismissive in a "have a strategy session with me or shut up" type of vibe, just to be clear. Intent sometimes comes through foggy in text, especially when emotions are understandably running high.

Funding added surveillance for a police department with a long track record of racism is irresponsible if you aren't simultaneously pushing for reforms that curb bad behavior. Particularly when the purpose of that surveillance is to clean up downtown, which in many cities, including Minneapolis, means clearing out the homeless and low-income people. Take it from someone who worked in downtown Minneapolis during its 'transformation'. Target HQ wanted the surrounding area sanitized, and a lot of vulnerable people suffered because of it. You can't hand police fancy toys and say "alright, here you go", and then wash your hands when they use those toys to unfairly target Black people.

And no, it isn't a cop out to reference the history of social protest. Property destruction is so often part of the equation. The Boston Tea Party. The Boston Massacre. The Stamps Act Riot. The Harlem Riot of 64. The Watts Riot of 65. The Rodney King Riot. Peaceful protest has rarely driven change without violent protest working in tandem. And the fact is, people have been TRYING peaceful protest about police brutality for years now. The response from much of the white public is, you can't do that on company time (Kaepernick), or, don't inconvenience me by blocking traffic. If it were left to folks invested in the status quo, the only protests you'd see would take place on side streets with permits. And I'm sorry, that isn't a protest, it's a parade.

Are things going perfectly? Of course not. There are lots of bad actors taking advantage of this situation, and I truly hate to see that. In my old neighborhood of Whittier, there were white supremacists with Texas plates shooting at Black businesses. That video circulating of state police shooting residents sitting on their porch was from three blocks from my old apartment. Out of town protesters, many meaning to be allies, some not, are burning businesses that are longtime community institutions.

But BY FAR the bigger concern here is that people are suffering and tired of not being heard, and the privileged are in no position to tell them how to be angry. They had their shot to listen. Refused. And now we're here. People can keep preaching restraint all they want, but the toothpaste isn't going back in the tube. I'm sorry. If you truly want it to end, and for everyone to be safe, folks are going to have to get a lot more invested in ending the subjugation of Black people, and of poor people -- pretty much everyone who's held on the bottom so the privileged can grab more than their fair share.

[Dominator83]

There is evidence that Target (a company I worked for briefly) is systemically involved in police brutality.

https://slate.com/business/2020/05/targets-long-history-with-minneapolis-police.html

Beyond what's in that article, the company invited Rich Stanek, a then-candidate for Hennepin County Sheriff who admitted under oath that he regularly used the n-word, to speak at their corporate campus when I worked there. It's one of a handful of reasons I quit after just 7 months. Stanek won that election, by the way, in no small part due to the image reform companies like Target helped him with.

And say Target and stores like it weren't involved in systemic police violence. This country has a long history of property destruction in service of social aims. Some of the damage is targeted. Some of it is collateral. I truly wish local businesses like your friend's could be left alone, and that opportunists - many of which are white supremacists and undercover cops - would stay out of it. But it's never worked that way, unfortunately. You can't take the chaos out of social uprisings. The unpredictability of these protests, riots - whatever you want to call them - is both a bug and a feature.

Personally, my concern lies with the parties who are most responsible for hurting PEOPLE, and that has been the police. You look at the way they've pepper sprayed, driven over, shot, trampled, and beaten people who are protesting peacefully - or in some cases minding their own business, on their own property - and you wonder how many of them have been spoiling for this fight.

Thanks for sharing. I read the article about Target paying for surveillance. I think it's preposterous to criticize that. I think the FIRST THING WE SHOULD DO to curb police abuses of power is to put a camera and mic, that won't turn off, on every cops body, in every squad car, and on every street post (to the extent practical or affordable, though I view such things as more important investments than things like education, healthcare, etc so I'd think it should be afforded). I think surveillance is slightly creepy, but dreadfully needed. I reject the implication that increased surveillance has to enable increased injustices by police, EVEN IF that may have been considered a "pro" of surveillance installation by some in power. A camera can't hurt someone . We've GOT TO BE PRECISE. When a cop hurts someone, that is something that THAT COP did, and he should be investigated and prosecuted. THEN, SEPARATELY, we should enact policies to decrease, hopefully dramatically of course, the frequency of police abuse of power (we can never 100 % eliminate crimes by anyone including authority figures but hopefully we can come waaaaay closer).

The racist sheriff candidate story is completely different and very concerning. I wonder if there is more detail to consider such as when he admitted to being a racist (before or after invitation to speak at target, etc), but certainly I'll reserve any judgement on that one way or the other. I'll certainly allow that Target may have been a valid "target" for property damage (but I won't concede it just yet, nor is it particularly important so I'm not demanding that you give me more info or anything). Sometimes targets are legit, sometimes they arent. My friend wasn't FOR SURE, and cops sat by and LET IT HAPPEN due to an inept, incompetent attitude of "de-escalation".

Saying "that's how it's always been" regarding collateral damage in chaos is a cop out. How about the parrelel thought of "you can't take the unjust and often racial violence out of police work, it's inherent to human/primate structures of power, I wish the cops COULD be less racist, but that's the way it's always been".

You absolutely can, and millions do, peacefully protest. Btw, I'm not even a strict, unilateral philosophical objector to violent protests, but they AT LEAST would have to be violent against someone coherently responsible (definitely an officer Chauvin, maaaaaaaaybe Target, definitely not my friend).

No one should have to "own" or exempt indiscriminate violence, even by people with a legit beef, any more than anyone should have to own a murder committed by officer Chauvin. It's the fault of the INDIVIDUAL. All of the rest of us individuals, YOU AND ME, can and must stand together to condemn all of the other INDIVIDUALS, like Chauvin and the punks that attacked innocents, anywhere and everywhere. The only thing we can do, additionally, which we also MUST, is try to develop better POLICY to improve it at a population level. I've offered many examples in this thread of what I think important policy implementations would be. I'm happy to discuss any others, and maybe we could all get a petition together with some great bullet points, no joke. If you want to discuss further, please PM me and I'll give you my address and you can come over for a social distancing driveway beer and strategy session, today. Dead ass. I'm trying to form bonds and make progress fwiw, not be dismissive in a "have a strategy session with me or shut up" type of vibe, just to be clear. Intent sometimes comes through foggy in text, especially when emotions are understandably running high.

Funding added surveillance for a police department with a long track record of racism is irresponsible if you aren't simultaneously pushing for reforms that curb bad behavior. Particularly when the purpose of that surveillance is to clean up downtown, which in many cities, including Minneapolis, means clearing out the homeless and low-income people. Take it from someone who worked in downtown Minneapolis during its 'transformation'. Target HQ wanted the surrounding area sanitized, and a lot of vulnerable people suffered because of it. You can't hand police fancy toys and say "alright, here you go", and then wash your hands when they use those toys to unfairly target Black people.

And no, it isn't a cop out to reference the history of social protest. Property destruction is so often part of the equation. The Boston Tea Party. The Boston Massacre. The Stamps Act Riot. The Harlem Riot of 64. The Watts Riot of 65. The Rodney King Riot. Peaceful protest has rarely driven change without violent protest working in tandem. And the fact is, people have been TRYING peaceful protest about police brutality for years now. The response from much of the white public is, you can't do that on company time (Kaepernick), or, don't inconvenience me by blocking traffic. If it were left to folks invested in the status quo, the only protests you'd see would take place on side streets with permits. And I'm sorry, that isn't a protest, it's a parade.

Are things going perfectly? Of course not. There are lots of bad actors taking advantage of this situation, and I truly hate to see that. In my old neighborhood of Whittier, there were white supremacists with Texas plates shooting at Black businesses. That video circulating of state police shooting residents sitting on their porch was from three blocks from my old apartment. Out of town protesters, many meaning to be allies, some not, are burning businesses that are longtime community institutions.

But BY FAR the bigger concern here is that people are suffering and tired of not being heard, and the privileged are in no position to tell them how to be angry. They had their shot to listen. Refused. And now we're here. People can keep preaching restraint all they want, but the toothpaste isn't going back in the tube. I'm sorry. If you truly want it to end, and for everyone to be safe, folks are going to have to get a lot more invested in ending the subjugation of Black people, and of poor people -- pretty much everyone who's held on the bottom so the privileged can grab more than their fair share.

Im totally down for some police reform and better behaving police. I support you on that. But the citizens also need to be reformed and better behaved. They need to go hand in hand. I just find it odds that in a lot of cases and areas, the good apples don't even seem to want the bad apples put away.

I'm pretty surprised to see that people are still even signing up to join the police force. Like who in the right mind would want that job? They're expected to play by a specific strict set of rules, while the people they face aren't expected to play by any rules. How are you supposed to win that way?

That's like watching a Bulls game where the Bulls have to play by the standard NBA rule book. While their opponent (be it Lakers, Heat, Knicks, pistons, etc) gets to play barbarian ball, gets to double- dribble, gets to goaltend, and not to mention the fans (media and general public) are rooting for the team with the already unfair advantage. It's unwinnable.

How anybody would wanna be a cop in America (that isn't dirty or corrupt and just wants to do right) these days is beyond me. Whatever it is they're being paid can't possibly be worth it.

[nitetrain8603]

I don't understand why people are looting shops and expect to be taken seriously. All you are doing is destroying businesses and their inventory, which the big ones are insured for. The smaller ones, the mom and pop shops don't have that luxury. The ones who didn't do anything to you. This president has shown that all he will do is apply more pressure and not admit what the actual problem is. "Send in the National Guard!" He's one of them. But if you want to be taken seriously, all of this energy needs to be directed at marching government offices and buildings.

The people in charge who have some type of power or influence don't care that you're destroying your own community, or Cristian Dior or Chanel stores (etc). In the end, they can go to work and go home in peace.

I'd say 98% of the people looting are just using this as an opportunity to commit a crime and not worry about serving jailtime. I do worry for cops who are not a part of the problem. I worry about business owners who are not apart of the problem. I worry that the message is getting lost in translation to those who can make a difference. But hey, at least someone is getting a Louis Vuitton purse or some free Jordan's out of it.

Let me ask one question. Of the businesses being looted/destroyed, who has a better chance of recovering? The huge conglomerate like LV, Nike, Target? Or the people who spent blood and sweat trying to open up their boutique shop, doing things the right way? In the end, the huge companies who may lose a store or shop - it's a speck on their radar. To the small business owner who is black, or white, or brown, or asian - it's everything.

Please everyone, be safe, be kind to each other, know the only race that matters is the one that ties us all together - we are all humans. Let's treat each other equally and no other way.

[Ccwatercraft]

That is precisely the point.

Looting, rioting occurs mostly in poor neighborhoods. Guess why?

Even in their delirious excitement people know that if they rioted in a rich neighborhood the rubber bullets flying now wouldn't be rubber anymore.

That's how MASSIVE the gap is in America. To have their voice heard they have to burn down their own homes.

There is a map of designated riot/burning areas for all major cities? I'd like to see that map, can you provide a link please?

You're purposely being obtuse.

My point is that on the second night...they burnt down Cub Foods, the local Target and many businesses local to them.

But they didnt do one similarly extreme act of arson in ex-cop Chauvins neighborhood.

They know better. They would have been gunned down right away.

So you are just making crap up.... got it.

[2018C3]

This riot stuff is idiotic. I live in the suburbs, and just drove to four different grocery stores in three different local towns in the Naperville area and they were all closed. It looked like they were also closing the fast food places.

I just got back, and have not yet seen anything on the news.

[wonderboy2]

I'm glued to the news and social media and I haven't seen it. It feels like property damage is being conflated with violence against people, and those are two very different things.

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Two sisters have been arrested after a Molotov cocktail was thrown into a NYPD van with four officers inside.

https://jonathanturley.org/2020/05/31/the-shader-sisters-two-women-arrested-after-molotov-cocktail-is-thrown-into-van-with-four-officers/

Just some samples. There's also the cop that was shot and killed, I believe, in Texas. Plus a number of shootings in downtown Chicago last night.

Those are horrible along with the 100s of videos of police pepper spraying un hostile protesters, pushing women in the street. Guy shooting a bow in arrow in a crowd and blaming black people for beating them up when it’s was none around.

[League Circles]

Funding added surveillance for a police department with a long track record of racism is irresponsible if you aren't simultaneously pushing for reforms that curb bad behavior. Particularly when the purpose of that surveillance is to clean up downtown, which in many cities, including Minneapolis, means clearing out the homeless and low-income people. Take it from someone who worked in downtown Minneapolis during its 'transformation'. Target HQ wanted the surrounding area sanitized, and a lot of vulnerable people suffered because of it. You can't hand police fancy toys and say "alright, here you go", and then wash your hands when they use those toys to unfairly target Black people.

And no, it isn't a cop out to reference the history of social protest. Property destruction is so often part of the equation. The Boston Tea Party. The Boston Massacre. The Stamps Act Riot. The Harlem Riot of 64. The Watts Riot of 65. The Rodney King Riot. Peaceful protest has rarely driven change without violent protest working in tandem. And the fact is, people have been TRYING peaceful protest about police brutality for years now. The response from much of the white public is, you can't do that on company time (Kaepernick), or, don't inconvenience me by blocking traffic. If it were left to folks invested in the status quo, the only protests you'd see would take place on side streets with permits. And I'm sorry, that isn't a protest, it's a parade.

Are things going perfectly? Of course not. There are lots of bad actors taking advantage of this situation, and I truly hate to see that. In my old neighborhood of Whittier, there were white supremacists with Texas plates shooting at Black businesses. That video circulating of state police shooting residents sitting on their porch was from three blocks from my old apartment. Out of town protesters, many meaning to be allies, some not, are burning businesses that are longtime community institutions.

But BY FAR the bigger concern here is that people are suffering and tired of not being heard, and the privileged are in no position to tell them how to be angry. They had their shot to listen. Refused. And now we're here. People can keep preaching restraint all they want, but the toothpaste isn't going back in the tube. I'm sorry. If you truly want it to end, and for everyone to be safe, folks are going to have to get a lot more invested in ending the subjugation of Black people, and of poor people -- pretty much everyone who's held on the bottom so the privileged can grab more than their fair share.

I'm going to try to address your post point by point. Please forgive me for not chopping it up I'm doing this with voice to text on my phone and it's too difficult to set up all the quotes.

What exactly does "paying for reforms" mean to you? Reforms are POLICIES, not capital. Nonetheless I won't dwell on this part as I previously stated I'm not trying to get into the depths of identifying whether Target corporation was a reasonable target for violence or not.

The cops have to be accountable for what they do with surveillance. The installation of surveillance is a technological issue and one that I would think everyone would be in support of other than extremist privacy protectors. The idea is that you give them the technology and if they misuse it then you prosecute prosecute those who misuse. Loitering laws and so forth are very very difficult philosophical issues. Police brutality isn't. if you think anteloitering laws are unjust you may have a point but that is not related to police brutality. The execution of police brutality is related to police brutality. there's nothing stopping good police workers from having cameras and having anti-lowering laws and not using police brutality with the information they get from the cameras.

So a protest has to violate law and order to be effective? Exactly which laws are ok to violate, in addition to traffic laws or 1st amendment rights? It's unclear whether you're just describing history or advocating present behavior.

You kind of have to make up your mind whether so-called collateral violence is acceptable or not. I don't really understand why you can't defend righteous protesters and condemn violent looters. I can't really wrap my head around why you can't see that is too completely separate things. Maybe it's because you want to own looters as if they are part of a group that you may belong to when I can assure you that I've been reading you on this board long enough to know that you're a good person and those looters are not part of a group that you need to own. I think. I just found out that one of the primary initial looters of my friends store has also been shown in social media photos at donald trump jr rallies? Are you sure you want to own her dumbass? Is it ok if someone "has the right intentions?" How do you know? Color of skin only?

Maybe lots of "privileged" people are telling others how to feel. I sure as hell am not. You're talking to me at the moment. I've been explicit that the feelings and suffering that are the source for the legit peaceful protests are righteous and should be encouraged. All I've said is that looters shouldn't be grouped in with protesters as you seem inclined to do partially, because THEY ARE DIFFERENT PEOPLE PERFORMING DIFFERENT ACTIONS.

Who had their shot to listen and refused? How do you gauge that or measure it? Class, race, or group based guilt assignment? **** that bull.

Preach restraint? That's how you view the belief that innocent people shouldn't be attacked randomly due to (reasonable) emotional tantrums?

It's all about the failure to be precise and to consider individuals as distinct from groups.

Get more invested? How exactly should one further invest than to extend a friendly invitation to another to come and discuss policy positions so that we assemble a petition to affect specific change? Cause that's what I just did, and you ignored. If you think I'm making a token effort that I know you won't accept, you're wrong Ashy. My invitation stands, just give me a little heads up. Most weekends are good times to talk. If you've already been working on a list of specific policy demands, that's genuinely virtuous. Please send to me so I can consider and either sign and forward or discuss details with you. If you don't have anything ready other than "folks are going to have to get a lot more invested in ending the subjugation of Black people", we may have a problem. Because you're not ready to effect change.

It's not that the emotions are in any way unjustified, it's that the answers are not super obvious and must be worked on. I'm interested in engaging in that. Sure there are racists all over, including in police departments, that wouldn't want to see progress made. But, IMO, the vast majority that you perceive as being complicity silent, are, in fact, feeling much the same way you do about injustices, but are just more tempered from a personality standpoint and don't literally understand the efficacy of public speech if not to advocate for specific change. They're waiting for your petition, so to speak, if you have one. If you don't, consider that others may be literally just waiting for you to be ready.

Nobody can fight all battles. Most people that are murdered unjustly never have anyone holding protests for them. I don't think it's prudent to hold vague but strong emotionally based positions that "things must change" and then condemn others for effectively not being more specific than the most passionate have been.

That invitation stands, man. Any time. For real. Could be the start of something great and strong.

[GetBuLLish]

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Well said.

[2018C3]

This riot stuff is idiotic. I live in the suburbs, and just drove to four different grocery stores in three different local towns in the Naperville area and they were all closed. It looked like they were also closing the fast food places.

I just got back, and have not yet seen anything on the news.

I just heard why 2nd hand, but do not want to spread any unconfirmed rumors. If what I was told is true, it will be in the news.