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Just Sad, "Chicago sees deadliest Memorial Day weekend in four years"

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Re: Just Sad, "Chicago sees deadliest Memorial Day weekend in four years" 

Post#341 » by TheSuzerain » Mon Jun 1, 2020 2:13 pm

SHO'NUFF wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:
logical_art wrote:I'm tired of LeBron and his virtue signaling. He cares about social issues except when it will cost him (China vs HK). Why doesn't America love us? First, America doesn't love any one group of people. They love individuals though. Like you, and other black athletes who have made fortunes and won the hearts of millions. A few bad cops doesn't change that.

LeBron cares about black issues. This is very simple.


Which he has every right. He’s looking out for his people. But if he’s going to do that then he needs to stay quiet when others have issues with other social injustices like Hong Kong. If anyone should understand it’s Lebron, right? But no. It doesn’t fit his agenda.

You are expecting a level of sacrifice by LeBron/other NBA stars that is unbelievable.

He chose hundreds of millions of dollars over taking a public stand for HK. Seems pretty normal.
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Re: Just Sad, "Chicago sees deadliest Memorial Day weekend in four years" 

Post#342 » by musiqsoulchild » Mon Jun 1, 2020 2:20 pm

League Circles wrote:I just went to the BLM website for the first time, wanting to give my respect to check out their platform and maybe find a petition I could agree with and sign. Was very disappointed to find that the demands and petition just amounted to a demand to defund the police. I genuinely think that's a terrible idea. The exact opposite of what I think should be done to solve the problem. I think we need big money for body cams, squad car cams, full independent backup of all the video, better training, better pay to attract better recruits, more cops, more money spent on internal affairs watching cops, etc etc. I couldn't sign the petition, cause I thought it would sabotage the goal. Anyone know of a better org that strives for the same general outcome of decreased police brutality?


BLM is born out of intersectionality.

Its founding members are mostly black feminist and LGBTQ.

Black - was the platform they chose. Which is the MAIN REASON why Centrist Democrats (like me) and many Black political leaders and Black churches and communities...never gave their blessing to BLM in 2016.

The movement has evolved now. All the while, the country at the same time, has DEVOLVED along racial lines under Trump. That has now elevated BLM to a more prominent, coherent message.

This is less about BLM anymore.

For me it's actually about Black Lives Mattering too. The actual message. I dont care about the movement and its website at al. I care about the results and the outcomes.
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Re: Just Sad, "Chicago sees deadliest Memorial Day weekend in four years" 

Post#343 » by ATRAIN53 » Mon Jun 1, 2020 2:23 pm

I'm not gonna pretend I understand this all from my safe suburban home-

but I was watching some of the coverage last night and where they were showing a standoff at 53rd and Wentworth. Police trying to block protesters getting into loop.

Then they cut away to a guy who is an activist who just returned from MN and was trying to organize a rally outside the police station. I think the guy was expecting a lot of people to come to his rally.

Instead everyone was to busy looting the mall down the road.

I don't know him or his background. Maybe locals in the area don't agree with him. It appears he tried to run for mayor recently.
But I think this guy gets it, he really should be the big takeaway from this weekend.

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Re: Just Sad, "Chicago sees deadliest Memorial Day weekend in four years" 

Post#344 » by League Circles » Mon Jun 1, 2020 2:28 pm

musiqsoulchild wrote:
League Circles wrote:I just went to the BLM website for the first time, wanting to give my respect to check out their platform and maybe find a petition I could agree with and sign. Was very disappointed to find that the demands and petition just amounted to a demand to defund the police. I genuinely think that's a terrible idea. The exact opposite of what I think should be done to solve the problem. I think we need big money for body cams, squad car cams, full independent backup of all the video, better training, better pay to attract better recruits, more cops, more money spent on internal affairs watching cops, etc etc. I couldn't sign the petition, cause I thought it would sabotage the goal. Anyone know of a better org that strives for the same general outcome of decreased police brutality?


BLM is born out of intersectionality.

Its founding members are mostly black feminist and LGBTQ.

Black - was the platform they chose. Which is the MAIN REASON why Centrist Democrats (like me) and many Black political leaders and Black churches and communities...never gave their blessing to BLM in 2016.

The movement has evolved now. All the while, the country at the same time, has DEVOLVED along racial lines under Trump. That has now elevated BLM to a more prominent, coherent message.

This is less about BLM anymore.

For me it's actually about Black Lives Mattering too. The actual message. I dont care about the movement and its website at al. I care about the results and the outcomes.


All I care about is concrete action to improve things. I don't know what that can be other than policy changes. I've outlined at least 6 or 7 very specific ideas that I strongly believe would help greatly, compared to the one specific thing they promote on their website, which is police defunding. I don't think they're crazy to believe in that, but I strongly, strongly disagree, so I'm still left looking for a petition I can sign that will be effective instead of detrimental. I'm gonna check out LEAP, whatever that is, based on chitownsalesmans recommendation. I'm open to any other suggestions. I won't become a BLM co-signer because I think the action that they want will work against the progress that we want to see made. Maybe they're right, idk, but I'm not gonna co sign a political movement that I think is promoting detrimental policy changes just because we both feel deeply for the same human suffering. I'm sure I'll find a more effective group to support. It simply cannot be the case that the movement has been waiting for little old me to lead it.
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Re: Just Sad, "Chicago sees deadliest Memorial Day weekend in four years" 

Post#345 » by SHO'NUFF » Mon Jun 1, 2020 2:34 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:
SHO'NUFF wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:LeBron cares about black issues. This is very simple.


Which he has every right. He’s looking out for his people. But if he’s going to do that then he needs to stay quiet when others have issues with other social injustices like Hong Kong. If anyone should understand it’s Lebron, right? But no. It doesn’t fit his agenda.

You are expecting a level of sacrifice by LeBron/other NBA stars that is unbelievable.

He chose hundreds of millions of dollars over taking a public stand for HK. Seems pretty normal.


He could have stayed quite and still made his millions. Didn’t have to publicly shame someone for it.
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Re: Just Sad, "Chicago sees deadliest Memorial Day weekend in four years" 

Post#346 » by TheSuzerain » Mon Jun 1, 2020 2:49 pm

SHO'NUFF wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:
SHO'NUFF wrote:
Which he has every right. He’s looking out for his people. But if he’s going to do that then he needs to stay quiet when others have issues with other social injustices like Hong Kong. If anyone should understand it’s Lebron, right? But no. It doesn’t fit his agenda.

You are expecting a level of sacrifice by LeBron/other NBA stars that is unbelievable.

He chose hundreds of millions of dollars over taking a public stand for HK. Seems pretty normal.


He could have stayed quite and still made his millions. Didn’t have to publicly shame someone for it.

Losing the China revenue would cost NBA players (most of whom are black) hundreds of millions of dollars.
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Re: Just Sad, "Chicago sees deadliest Memorial Day weekend in four years" 

Post#347 » by League Circles » Mon Jun 1, 2020 3:07 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:
SHO'NUFF wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:LeBron cares about black issues. This is very simple.


Which he has every right. He’s looking out for his people. But if he’s going to do that then he needs to stay quiet when others have issues with other social injustices like Hong Kong. If anyone should understand it’s Lebron, right? But no. It doesn’t fit his agenda.

You are expecting a level of sacrifice by LeBron/other NBA stars that is unbelievable.

He chose hundreds of millions of dollars over taking a public stand for HK. Seems pretty normal.

Meh, I really doubt it was anywhere near hundreds of millions to him. It wasn't that he chose to be silent, it's that he acted to silence those supporting human rights to make his unbelievably rich life even richer. I won't condemn him for it. He's human, I kinda like him generally overall, but he loses credibility when he explicitly tries to silence another person speaking up for human rights. He should have just let it be IMO.
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Re: Just Sad, "Chicago sees deadliest Memorial Day weekend in four years" 

Post#348 » by League Circles » Mon Jun 1, 2020 3:09 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:
SHO'NUFF wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:You are expecting a level of sacrifice by LeBron/other NBA stars that is unbelievable.

He chose hundreds of millions of dollars over taking a public stand for HK. Seems pretty normal.


He could have stayed quite and still made his millions. Didn’t have to publicly shame someone for it.

Losing the China revenue would cost NBA players (most of whom are black) hundreds of millions of dollars.

Every single NBA player, coach, executive, etc can easily afford to "lose" that money (not actually lose, just decrease projected future profits). I guess there are a few 10 day contract types that it would matter for.
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Re: Just Sad, "Chicago sees deadliest Memorial Day weekend in four years" 

Post#349 » by AshyLarrysDiaper » Mon Jun 1, 2020 3:27 pm

League Circles wrote:
AshyLarrysDiaper wrote:

Funding added surveillance for a police department with a long track record of racism is irresponsible if you aren't simultaneously pushing for reforms that curb bad behavior. Particularly when the purpose of that surveillance is to clean up downtown, which in many cities, including Minneapolis, means clearing out the homeless and low-income people. Take it from someone who worked in downtown Minneapolis during its 'transformation'. Target HQ wanted the surrounding area sanitized, and a lot of vulnerable people suffered because of it. You can't hand police fancy toys and say "alright, here you go", and then wash your hands when they use those toys to unfairly target Black people.

And no, it isn't a cop out to reference the history of social protest. Property destruction is so often part of the equation. The Boston Tea Party. The Boston Massacre. The Stamps Act Riot. The Harlem Riot of 64. The Watts Riot of 65. The Rodney King Riot. Peaceful protest has rarely driven change without violent protest working in tandem. And the fact is, people have been TRYING peaceful protest about police brutality for years now. The response from much of the white public is, you can't do that on company time (Kaepernick), or, don't inconvenience me by blocking traffic. If it were left to folks invested in the status quo, the only protests you'd see would take place on side streets with permits. And I'm sorry, that isn't a protest, it's a parade.

Are things going perfectly? Of course not. There are lots of bad actors taking advantage of this situation, and I truly hate to see that. In my old neighborhood of Whittier, there were white supremacists with Texas plates shooting at Black businesses. That video circulating of state police shooting residents sitting on their porch was from three blocks from my old apartment. Out of town protesters, many meaning to be allies, some not, are burning businesses that are longtime community institutions.

But BY FAR the bigger concern here is that people are suffering and tired of not being heard, and the privileged are in no position to tell them how to be angry. They had their shot to listen. Refused. And now we're here. People can keep preaching restraint all they want, but the toothpaste isn't going back in the tube. I'm sorry. If you truly want it to end, and for everyone to be safe, folks are going to have to get a lot more invested in ending the subjugation of Black people, and of poor people -- pretty much everyone who's held on the bottom so the privileged can grab more than their fair share.

I'm going to try to address your post point by point. Please forgive me for not chopping it up I'm doing this with voice to text on my phone and it's too difficult to set up all the quotes.

What exactly does "paying for reforms" mean to you? Reforms are POLICIES, not capital. Nonetheless I won't dwell on this part as I previously stated I'm not trying to get into the depths of identifying whether Target corporation was a reasonable target for violence or not.

The cops have to be accountable for what they do with surveillance. The installation of surveillance is a technological issue and one that I would think everyone would be in support of other than extremist privacy protectors. The idea is that you give them the technology and if they misuse it then you prosecute prosecute those who misuse. Loitering laws and so forth are very very difficult philosophical issues. Police brutality isn't. if you think anteloitering laws are unjust you may have a point but that is not related to police brutality. The execution of police brutality is related to police brutality. there's nothing stopping good police workers from having cameras and having anti-lowering laws and not using police brutality with the information they get from the cameras.

So a protest has to violate law and order to be effective? Exactly which laws are ok to violate, in addition to traffic laws or 1st amendment rights? It's unclear whether you're just describing history or advocating present behavior.

You kind of have to make up your mind whether so-called collateral violence is acceptable or not. I don't really understand why you can't defend righteous protesters and condemn violent looters. I can't really wrap my head around why you can't see that is too completely separate things. Maybe it's because you want to own looters as if they are part of a group that you may belong to when I can assure you that I've been reading you on this board long enough to know that you're a good person and those looters are not part of a group that you need to own. I think. I just found out that one of the primary initial looters of my friends store has also been shown in social media photos at donald trump jr rallies? Are you sure you want to own her dumbass? Is it ok if someone "has the right intentions?" How do you know? Color of skin only?

Maybe lots of "privileged" people are telling others how to feel. I sure as hell am not. You're talking to me at the moment. I've been explicit that the feelings and suffering that are the source for the legit peaceful protests are righteous and should be encouraged. All I've said is that looters shouldn't be grouped in with protesters as you seem inclined to do partially, because THEY ARE DIFFERENT PEOPLE PERFORMING DIFFERENT ACTIONS.

Who had their shot to listen and refused? How do you gauge that or measure it? Class, race, or group based guilt assignment? **** that bull.

Preach restraint? That's how you view the belief that innocent people shouldn't be attacked randomly due to (reasonable) emotional tantrums?

It's all about the failure to be precise and to consider individuals as distinct from groups.

Get more invested? How exactly should one further invest than to extend a friendly invitation to another to come and discuss policy positions so that we assemble a petition to affect specific change? Cause that's what I just did, and you ignored. If you think I'm making a token effort that I know you won't accept, you're wrong Ashy. My invitation stands, just give me a little heads up. Most weekends are good times to talk. If you've already been working on a list of specific policy demands, that's genuinely virtuous. Please send to me so I can consider and either sign and forward or discuss details with you. If you don't have anything ready other than "folks are going to have to get a lot more invested in ending the subjugation of Black people", we may have a problem. Because you're not ready to effect change.

It's not that the emotions are in any way unjustified, it's that the answers are not super obvious and must be worked on. I'm interested in engaging in that. Sure there are racists all over, including in police departments, that wouldn't want to see progress made. But, IMO, the vast majority that you perceive as being complicity silent, are, in fact, feeling much the same way you do about injustices, but are just more tempered from a personality standpoint and don't literally understand the efficacy of public speech if not to advocate for specific change. They're waiting for your petition, so to speak, if you have one. If you don't, consider that others may be literally just waiting for you to be ready.

Nobody can fight all battles. Most people that are murdered unjustly never have anyone holding protests for them. I don't think it's prudent to hold vague but strong emotionally based positions that "things must change" and then condemn others for effectively not being more specific than the most passionate have been.

That invitation stands, man. Any time. For real. Could be the start of something great and strong.



Quickly addressing a few points in the little time I have:

- I didn’t say Target should PAY for policies. I said PUSH for policies. But given the relationship between large corporate HQs and city governments, pay would’ve been more apt.

- There isnt much precedence that I’m aware of for prosecuting police who misuse surveillance. That’s why you need a framework in place for preventing abuse before you hand them the toys.

- I’m advocating for certain kinds of civil disobedience because of the history of social unrest. If you have another method that bucks several centuries of protest-led change, break it down. But you and me drafting a petition isn’t it, I’ll tell you that.

- As far as my fatalism about violence applying to police reform... I agree. It’s why I think American policing needs to be torn down to the studs.

- If you want to know why I’m neither “owning” nor condemning looters (the ones who don’t attack people, that is), read the MLK quote I posted.

- if you want create change, there are a number of guides circulating on how anti-racists can take action. Google it and the links will pop right up. And while I appreciate your invitation write policy with you, I’m gonna decline. My dance card is full there, and I don’t think you and I are aligned enough in our visions. But by all means, keep driving on that front.
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Re: Just Sad, "Chicago sees deadliest Memorial Day weekend in four years" 

Post#350 » by MrSparkle » Mon Jun 1, 2020 3:34 pm

So many videos of these coordinated hooded white dudes dressed in all black, riding around in white vans, busting up things and breaking property.

I don’t care who they are — IMO it is wise to simply make a new goal for peaceful protestors ; help the police, target, tackle and help arrest these concealed saboteurs who have are zeroing on Maximizing chaos and damage. These guys are going around the city finding random mom n pop shops to throw bricks through. This is sabotage and pure subversion with zero having to do with BLM. If you are fighting for a cause with fellow activists, then you show your face and react to the matters at end. You don’t hide your face and go light fires.

I’m just thinking out loud, but I’ve said it before. Intelligent Leaders need to come forth or else this is just going to fizzle out into another chaotic time piece overtaken by nihilists and young fools.

For one thing, a silent protest is an interesting alternative. Try practicing your meditative strength And focus — stand still and silent with thousands of people in a police face-off. That’ll do more emotionally than screaming with a mob. And any tool bag who came to the protest with a bag of hammers and crowbars isn’t gonna have a chance to start causing trouble with everybody silent.

Just saying, there are different forms of protest. High-jacking the movement with thugs not interested in the cause is a recipe for disaster and it plays into the plutocrats and autoritarians’ hands.
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Re: Just Sad, "Chicago sees deadliest Memorial Day weekend in four years" 

Post#351 » by TheSuzerain » Mon Jun 1, 2020 3:48 pm

League Circles wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:
SHO'NUFF wrote:
Which he has every right. He’s looking out for his people. But if he’s going to do that then he needs to stay quiet when others have issues with other social injustices like Hong Kong. If anyone should understand it’s Lebron, right? But no. It doesn’t fit his agenda.

You are expecting a level of sacrifice by LeBron/other NBA stars that is unbelievable.

He chose hundreds of millions of dollars over taking a public stand for HK. Seems pretty normal.

Meh, I really doubt it was anywhere near hundreds of millions to him. It wasn't that he chose to be silent, it's that he acted to silence those supporting human rights to make his unbelievably rich life even richer. I won't condemn him for it. He's human, I kinda like him generally overall, but he loses credibility when he explicitly tries to silence another person speaking up for human rights. He should have just let it be IMO.

Not to him, but as a collective for NBA players it was definitely hundreds of millions.
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Re: Just Sad, "Chicago sees deadliest Memorial Day weekend in four years" 

Post#352 » by AshyLarrysDiaper » Mon Jun 1, 2020 3:57 pm

logical_art wrote:
AshyLarrysDiaper wrote:
logical_art wrote:Nobody has yet to satisfactorily explain why when a white person kills a black person its nearly infinitely times worse in the eyes of black people and the median compared to when a black person kills a black person. More than 10x the number of black people were killed by other black people. Very few people care or know the victims names. Who can name the people killed last weekend in Chicago?

If you are concerned about black lives, the statistics starting point is black on black murders. These are facts.

So why is it that people only care about black lives when its a white killer, even though the problem of white on black crime is far far less significant than black on black crime?


“Black on black on crime” is a meaningless trope. People of every race kill each other more often than they’re killed by other races. That’s how segregation works.

And Black people fight the underlying conditions that lead to non-police murders CONSTANTLY. Poverty being the biggest one. But police murders are particularly egregious because cops are a) supposed to protect and serve, b) so rarely charged let alone prosecuted, and c) far too often racist. The FBI warned of police departments being infiltrated by white supremacists years ago; it’s a phenomenon as old as American policing itself.

http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/402521/doc-26-white-supremacist-infiltration.pdf


I get that its worse when the people supposed to protect kill, especially when **** police departments aren't improved despite warnings. But is it that much worse where nobody knows the thousands of black folks killed every year except for the handful of cases where it's by a white cop?

Do black lives matter more when they're ended by a white cop? That's what the revealed preferences of the outrage suggest. If you die at the ends of a cop, you're a martyr and worth taking the streets for. If not, meh just a statistic forgotten tomorrow. And let not get into the lives of non-blacks murdered by police, or blacks killed by black cops. They receive nowhere near the attention of of the few blacks killed by white cops.

Because people are not rational in how much they care about black lives (they care about those killed by white cops a lot more), it suggests that these incidents are not actually strategic but rather trigger points (pun not intended) to vent frustration. Frustration for racism experienced. Frustration that still black folks are in the lowest socio-economic strata in the country. I get that, but lets be honest about it rather that cloaking in the language of black lives matter. They matter when white cop ended them. To me that's kind of sad.



Black Lives Matter isn’t cloaking anything. There are a whole lot of people talking about the intersection between police brutality and economic suppression. They’ve been talking about it for over 60 years. It takes willful ignorance to not get it at this point.
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Re: Just Sad, "Chicago sees deadliest Memorial Day weekend in four years" 

Post#353 » by GetBuLLish » Mon Jun 1, 2020 4:13 pm

dice wrote:the vast majority of police shootings involve civilians attempting to attack somebody. these tend to be the situations where white people are killed by police. and white people are more likely to be armed when killed


I'll take the bait and respond to Dice's post, hopefully for the benefit of other readers.

Where to start. First of all, black people are not more likely to be killed by cops. In fact, black people are 23.5% less likely to be shot by police in interactions than white people. See https://www.nber.org/papers/w22399.pdf (for what it’s worth, that’s a study by a black professor from Harvard)

Second, as for unarmed killings, more unarmed white people were killed last year than unarmed black people. One might ask about the difference in rate of killing for unarmed black people versus unarmed white people. Well the studies consistently show that there is no evidence that unarmed black people are killed at higher rates than unarmed white people. Example:

When adjusting for crime, we find no systematic evidence of anti-Black disparities in fatal shootings, fatal shootings of unarmed citizens, or fatal shootings involving misidentification of harmless objects.


https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/b44013_a5fc6189326849fab031bc3fedae7c3d.pdf

In fact, the data shows that to the extent there’s racial discrimination in unarmed killings, the discrimination is against whites:

For white officers, the probability that a white suspect who is involved in officer-involved shooting has a weapon is 84.2%. The equivalent probability for blacks is 80.9%. A difference of 4%, which is not statistically significant. For black officers, the probability that a white suspect who is involved in an officer-involved shooting has a weapon is surprisingly lower, 57.1%. The equivalent probability for black suspects is 73.0%. The only statistically significant differences by race demonstrate that black officers are more likely to shoot unarmed whites, relative to white officers.

https://www.nber.org/papers/w22399.pdf

Third, for some context, cop killings of unarmed black people has been on a downward trend. Last year a total of 9 unarmed black people were killed. That’s compared to 38 in 2015. In fact, it seems like we were at 50 year lows in terms of black people being killed by cops (armed or unarmed).

For more context, for every black person killed in 2019, roughly 99.9% were NOT killed by cops and unarmed.

it is almost exclusively white men who commit mass shootings, yet they are often apprehended alive.


Not only is it false to say that white men exclusively commit mass shootings, white men commit mass shootings at a rate proportional to their share of the male population or less than their share of the male population. See https://www.pri.org/stories/2019-08-07/mass-shootings-arent-growing-more-common-and-evidence-contradicts-common

yet he won't produce a video of a white person being indiscriminately killed by a cop. him calling others ignorant is rich


Of all the completely ignorant and baseless statements made in Dice’s post, this one takes the cake. It also proves my point that much of this racial divisiveness is stoked by the media. You see, the media never focuses on whites being unjustifiably murdered by cops. So for people like Dice (millions of people), that can only mean it’s because no such incidents exist!
Well that is flagrantly untrue. Here are a couple heinous examples:



Here’s the story on that murder: https://www.dallasnews.com/news/investigations/2019/07/31/you-re-gonna-kill-me-dallas-police-body-cam-footage-reveals-the-final-minutes-of-tony-timpa-s-life/?

How many people have heard of Tony Timpa? Not many. Since the media barely covered his murder, it simply never happened to most people.

Another video:



---
I’ll conclude with this. For all the nonstop consternation about how cops are indiscriminately hunting down black people, you would think that black people would benefit drastically if cops simply stopped patrolling black neighborhoods. That would be a logical conclusion if the premise were true. In fact, I’ve seen a number of people online advocate for the abolishment of police departments.
Well if you want any more proof as to how absurd that whole line of thinking is, just do some research on what happened to Ferguson after the riots there. The cops stopped policing there. Take a look at what the results were for that city.
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Re: Just Sad, "Chicago sees deadliest Memorial Day weekend in four years" 

Post#354 » by AshyLarrysDiaper » Mon Jun 1, 2020 4:40 pm

People hurt by police violence aren’t being “stoked by the media.” They had to move heaven and earth to get the media’s attention in the first place.

P.S. BLM has protested when white people have been killed by police, too.
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Re: Just Sad, "Chicago sees deadliest Memorial Day weekend in four years" 

Post#355 » by HINrichPolice » Mon Jun 1, 2020 6:05 pm

Shill wrote:
HINrichPolice wrote:
Shill wrote:
The inflation would be a result of massively increasing the money supply.



Common misconception.

Let's take Andrew Yang's UBI policy for example.

In his plan, money wouldn't be printed to fund UBI. Instead, a huge mechanism to fund UBI would be through VAT which would allow for money to be redistributed from wealthy to poor.



I've heard his UBI proposal, but not all the nuts and bolts.

Unless his version of the VAT is only on big-money items like yachts, it will end up being regressive.


Another common misconception.

VAT by itself can be regressive.

VAT + UBI = Progressive.

Using Andrew Yang's UBI policy as an example, VAT would be 0% on essential goods. So to your point on yachts, yes, VAT would be ratcheted up for luxury goods.
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Re: Just Sad, "Chicago sees deadliest Memorial Day weekend in four years" 

Post#356 » by HINrichPolice » Mon Jun 1, 2020 6:07 pm

Shill wrote:
HINrichPolice wrote:
It's about time that we try to trust people with money instead of the government. People know better than the government on how to use money to improve their own life. We need to shift away from this parental mindset and show more trust in people.



Agree 100%.

The only problem is if UBI is implemented incorrectly (as I'm sure you know, there isn't a consensus on which model to use), it would just turn into an ever-expanding bureaucracy.


The beauty of it being Universal is that it would cut down on bureaucracy. The U part of UBI is really important as it, to your point, really simplifies the execution of it and ensures people that need it don't fall through the cracks.
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Re: Just Sad, "Chicago sees deadliest Memorial Day weekend in four years" 

Post#357 » by HINrichPolice » Mon Jun 1, 2020 6:11 pm

League Circles wrote:Ignoring the fact that we print a **** of money now to pay for all the stuff we can't afford, inflation would IMO still be very significant because you'd have a bunch of new dollars bidding on the same goods and services. You give everyone money and the next opportunity, landlords will jack up rent. Buyers will bid up the prices of homes, etc.


That's the most common misconception. I do think there will be some inflation, but inflation is normal to a point.

Regarding worries of inflation: https://medium.com/basic-income/wouldnt-unconditional-basic-income-just-cause-massive-inflation-fe71d69f15e7

League Circles wrote:Then there is the issue that a VAT tax is regressive.


Another common misconception.

VAT by itself can be regressive.

VAT + UBI = Progressive

Additionally, VAT an be changed depending on the good. For example, Andrew Yang's VAT plan would be to make it 0% on essential goods and to ratchet it up on luxury goods.

If you're not viewing VAT + UBI as a combo deal, then you're misunderstanding how they work together.
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Re: Just Sad, "Chicago sees deadliest Memorial Day weekend in four years" 

Post#358 » by League Circles » Mon Jun 1, 2020 6:18 pm

AshyLarrysDiaper wrote:[
- There isnt much precedence that I’m aware of for prosecuting police who misuse surveillance. That’s why you need a framework in place for preventing abuse before you hand them the toys.

The "toys" ARE the framework IMO. "Misuse" = criminal behavior (by cops). Surveillance is a tool, not a toy, to help prosecute this criminal behavior. Will it be used right? Sometimes. Other times we might have to prosecute someone who uses it wrongly. We have to deal with that as we encounter it, case by case.

- I’m advocating for certain kinds of civil disobedience because of the history of social unrest. If you have another method that bucks several centuries of protest-led change, break it down. But you and me drafting a petition isn’t it, I’ll tell you that.

I advocate civil disobedience too. I don't consider looting civil disobedience. I consider it arbitrary property damage. I see civil disobedience as things like sit ins, blocking traffic, etc. Things that don't have a specific, yet random, victim. technical violations of laws that mostly just inconvenience rather than harm random people.

- As far as my fatalism about violence applying to police reform... I agree. It’s why I think American policing needs to be torn down to the studs.

Torn down the studs doesn't mean anything though. If it did I might agree. Does it mean "fire every existing police officer in the nation and go without police for a few years while we rebuild?" If so, say that. It would be a policy idea to consider. If it means something else, say that.

- If you want to know why I’m neither “owning” nor condemning looters (the ones who don’t attack people, that is), read the MLK quote I posted.

I did, thanks for sharing. It was a touching excerpt. All I want to know on this narrow issue is whether you consider random looting to be acceptable, excusable behavior, or whether such people should be prosecuted in accordance with the law. Don't be ashamed to admit if you think it's OK. Seriously. I don't think that's wildly insane but I don't agree with it. What it appears to me is that too many people focus on group identity vs individual evaluation, and they presume (usually falsely IMO), that the looters stand with them (peaceful activists). I don't group the two types of individuals together in any meaningful coherent way. I'm not interested in the protesters other than to encourage them and investigate what I can do to help. It doesn't even occur to me to judge them or group the looters with them. Not my business if a looter ALSO believes in police justice. Thats a different, irrelevant fact about him that we dont need to conflate with his crime.

- if you want create change, there are a number of guides circulating on how anti-racists can take action. Google it and the links will pop right up. And while I appreciate your invitation write policy with you, I’m gonna decline. My dance card is full there, and I don’t think you and I are aligned enough in our visions. But by all means, keep driving on that front.

No worries, thanks, I kinda figured you're already plenty active. By all means share your progress so maybe I can co-sign. Like I wrote elsewhere here I went to the BLM website expecting and hoping to find something I agree with to sign. Was disappointed to find that the platform is defunding police. I understand the logic but think the cons far outweigh the pros on that.
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Re: Just Sad, "Chicago sees deadliest Memorial Day weekend in four years" 

Post#359 » by MrSparkle » Mon Jun 1, 2020 6:21 pm

HINrichPolice wrote:
Shill wrote:
HINrichPolice wrote:
It's about time that we try to trust people with money instead of the government. People know better than the government on how to use money to improve their own life. We need to shift away from this parental mindset and show more trust in people.



Agree 100%.

The only problem is if UBI is implemented incorrectly (as I'm sure you know, there isn't a consensus on which model to use), it would just turn into an ever-expanding bureaucracy.


The beauty of it being Universal is that it would cut down on bureaucracy. The U part of UBI is really important as it, to your point, really simplifies the execution of it and ensures people that need it don't fall through the cracks.


Yeah - I'm with it. How many administrative/desk jobs with early retirements and pensions are needed to weave through the applications and appeals to determine whether you're eligible? That's a government bloat I'd gladly reduce.

Obviously don't send income to dead people like we had with this $1200 stimulus, but that can be easily remedied with having an active SSN connected to your account. You receive UBI, you still pay 10-20% taxes.

The universal part makes it simple. You don't need the 1k? Fine, then you spend it on a luxury; a guitar, a bike, put it towards a new car. That stimulates the economy greatly. You need it? Pay your rent with it, and you have enough surplus to pay your loans, afford health care, build a savings account.

It makes a lot of sense. It will give people freedom to move to smaller, cheaper towns as well, because you can afford to live even if there are zero job opportunities. You can create new small businesses with a meager savings and not fall under. It would be a mecca for small towns with obsolete mining and manufacturing industries, because there is literally no money circulating in those towns besides for Walmart, McDonalds, gas stations and opioids.

Frankly I think it would start a boom of new self-sufficient towns. Right now, there is NO reason for me to move to the middle of nowhere. My job prospects would be absolutely awful. I'd strongly consider a rural move with my savings if I had 1K coming in and the time to work on creating an online-platform for my business. And I'd support local cafes, bars and shops if they came up. Just my 2c.

Anybody else getting puke-sick of shopping at Amazon, Walmart and Target? What choice do we have? They undercut the competition with prices and options, and I'm not made of money. They receive a big natural subsidy with the massive tax loopholes that small businesses don't get. Why not subsidize citizens and circulate/stimulate the money we earn and pay to begin with?
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Re: Just Sad, "Chicago sees deadliest Memorial Day weekend in four years" 

Post#360 » by Dominator83 » Mon Jun 1, 2020 7:00 pm

SHO'NUFF wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:
SHO'NUFF wrote:
Which he has every right. He’s looking out for his people. But if he’s going to do that then he needs to stay quiet when others have issues with other social injustices like Hong Kong. If anyone should understand it’s Lebron, right? But no. It doesn’t fit his agenda.

You are expecting a level of sacrifice by LeBron/other NBA stars that is unbelievable.

He chose hundreds of millions of dollars over taking a public stand for HK. Seems pretty normal.


He could have stayed quite and still made his millions. Didn’t have to publicly shame someone for it.

And remember when he was so proud of Nike's Kaepernick add that said "stand for something even if it costs you everything"? Practice what you preach Lebron.
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