2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 5) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15!

[malik959]

question, how is Cole Anthony specifically better at that then Kira Lewis?

Kira Lewis wasn't great against teams with winning records. He gets bullied when going against guards that are bigger and his overall defense sucks, while Cole can at lease stay in front of his man. Kira Lewis played with teammates that shot above 40% so he could depend on them more and could pass the ball to them knowing that they could do something with it, while Cole's team as a whole shot 30% from 3 (keep in mind Anthony Harris only had 7 shots and averaged 42.9, eliminate him and that average shoots to 25%). Stats don't tell the whole story on players, sometimes you actually have to watch a player play, and Cole keeps his team moving with his quick decision passing, but I've seen on so many occasions where he had a GREAT pass and his teammates turned it over. He put up a lot of last second 3 pt shots where his team gives it to him while he was positioned poorly due to double teams. Another difference is Cole comes into a game expecting teams to come after him alone. It showed when he played against Florida St and also Duke where defenses keyed in on him every time he touched the ball, make one move and a second defender steps up in the lane.

didnt he outplay cole when they played each other?

He went 9/23 fg, 2/7 from 3, and 5 TO and lost by 9pts to a sorry team, yeah you can say he out played Anthony

[malik959]

Rubio wouldn't really make the Knicks better. He didn't make the TWolves better nor did he really make the Jazz better, they actually improved offensively after trading him, nor did he make the more talented Suns better. Rubio is a solid player but he's never going to be considered amongst the best in the league or even elite or even close to All Star, despite his high assist numbers every year.

Lamelo is like a weird blend of Rubio and Brandon Jennings, I just don't see that as being good enough to justify the hype. We've had passing before and that wasn't the answer either. Chris Duhon averaged over 7 assists a game and holds the franchise record for most assist in a game but he wasn't the answer either. Jennings was a passer and he didn't do anything for us either.

I agree that we need a PG with good balance, that's why Cole is ideal for it. He's shown enough playmaking and scoring. The fact that he averaged 4 assist a game on a team that features low post bigs and no outside shooting whatsoever is even more impressive. If Cole turns into a 20 / 6 player for the Knicks that's just what we need and currently don't have. If RJ is given more opportunities with the ball he can contribute with the playmaking as well. We don't need some top 5 assist leader to build a good coherent group, plenty of teams are doing just fine without a top 5 assists guy and got playmaking contribution from multiple positions.

Eh, I dont know why you keep bringing up every bum PG like it's evidence LaMelo will be bad. Duhon sucks, but it doesn't mean we should cross off players that can pass well. Lebron is leading the league in assists and one of the GOATs. A big reason is his passing. He came in as a bad shooter too, but that kind of feel set him up to be great. LaMelo isn't Duhon nor Lebron, but the combination of size/vision/passing is a great skill set that can set up for success.

I dont know how 4apg and 3.5TOs can be impressive either...that's like Julius Randle type of playmaking

How different is that from bringing up Trier and Burke?

I'm just using your own arguments against you and trying to get some consistency. Here's an example

Duhon sucks, but it doesn't mean we should cross off players that can pass well.

But you literally tried to use failures of Burke and Trier as some example of why taking Cole wouldn't make us better.

Lamelo isn't Lebron, you are right, I think there's no further reason to bring the two up anymore other than to make that statement.

4 assists and 3.5 turnovers isn't that impressive for a guy you want to be a playmaker. I don't, I want a scorer. If I just wanted a playmaker I'd take Haliburton

Aaah Lebron is great because NOBODY can stop him from getting to the rim. Passing came second.

[mpharris36]

Kira Lewis wasn't great against teams with winning records. He gets bullied when going against guards that are bigger and his overall defense sucks, while Cole can at lease stay in front of his man. Kira Lewis played with teammates that shot above 40% so he could depend on them more and could pass the ball to them knowing that they could do something with it, while Cole's team as a whole shot 30% from 3 (keep in mind Anthony Harris only had 7 shots and averaged 42.9, eliminate him and that average shoots to 25%). Stats don't tell the whole story on players, sometimes you actually have to watch a player play, and Cole keeps his team moving with his quick decision passing, but I've seen on so many occasions where he had a GREAT pass and his teammates turned it over. He put up a lot of last second 3 pt shots where his team gives it to him while he was positioned poorly due to double teams. Another difference is Cole comes into a game expecting teams to come after him alone. It showed when he played against Florida St and also Duke where defenses keyed in on him every time he touched the ball, make one move and a second defender steps up in the lane.

didnt he outplay cole when they played each other?

He went 9/23 fg, 2/7 from 3, and 5 TO and lost by 9pts to a sorry team, yeah you can say he out played Anthony

And cole anthony went 4-13 fg 1/3 from 3 and 6 TO's...

and I was told Cole Anthony had a horrible season because his team stunk? Are they better than Alabama? If so then shouldn't Kira Lewis also get credit for having a better year on a worse team?

[malik959]

There is a lot of hyperbole here. "insane vision/feel/IQ" is gassing him up quite a bit. You also have to take him as the player he is, not the player you picture him being in your ideal idea of him. The player that he is is a guy who shoots a lot and is inefficient, so even if you aren't drafting him to be that you are still going to get that.

I think its a combination of both. Its a combination of what they did and what they can become by taking there skill set and trying to translate it to the NBA game. Its challenging because these guys are so young and we have very little worthwhile tape on most of these guys outside of the multi year college guys.

You have to do some projectability with prospects though. Othwise Grant Riller would be one of the first PG's off the board.

Or the fact that Derrick Rose only college year he scored 14pts 4.5 rebs and 4.5 assists. Which is nothing to stop you in your tracks. But there are other factors in play along with using there college/overseas production.

This 100%^^ It's like some people forget that players get better as they grow and some of them just fit the NBA game better and really blow up once there and adjusted. Lonzo couldn't shoot ion college either, neither could D.Fox and i could go on and on and on but you can't just go off of what these kids have done in college or overseas and that's where the professional scouts and GM's come in.

Actualy...... Lonzo Ball was a good shooter in College. He had a 55% Fg, 41% 3pt, 68% efg%. If we compare the two Lonzo was definitely the better player at the same age, more under control, better defense, more athletic.

[malik959]

No it's not. Those are horrific shooting numbers for a guy who loves to put up shots. More often than not he tries to be a "scoring" player but he's got the worst scoring efficiency in the entire draft. That doesn't offset anything, it's a major flaw. If he actually played a lead guard role and understood his role as a passer like his brother, he would be more valuable. He doesn't though and it's a major flaw. On top of that he's a lazy defender with terrible awareness. Then there is the immaturity issues, the all about branding and marketing baggage and you got so many red flags that just scream "stay away" from him. Not to mention he doesn't address any of our current weaknesses.

I hate these "player A is better now, but player B is projected to be better in 4 years" BS. Are we still saying the same thing about Knox over Mikal Bridges? Or Frank over Mitch? It's all on their work ethics., you get some players that come into the NBA and say "damn I didn't know they work this hard. Some get it and some don't . Some don't have to PRACTICE at all and still become great.

I'd rather go with player A is good right now and can get better (not placing a cap on him) Haliburton, over "oh he may only shoot 27% and shoots from his hip, but in 3 years he'll be great because his dad said so", Ball. I'd rather go with a player that has a dog mentality to take over a game when the team needs him most and is a threat from inside and out where opponents look to get the ball out of his hands because they know he will destroy you, Cole.

Understood if you want someone with a projected higher ceiling hen you have to make do. Since none of the others are ready made (but supposedly have higher ceilings) you have to look at projected improvement. Isthe player improving or regressing?If they are improving what is that the of improvement - age and experience play into this. Level of competition, plays into this as well. Lamelo could definitely improve, Hayes showed incredible improvement during Eurocup. Cole.....

So really we just have to leave it to the scouts to do what they do best. Or we could just play it "safe" with Haliburton. I put safe in quotes because Haliburton could surprise us.

Where has Melo improved? Did his shooting percentage increase? Is he more athletic? Does he no longer take outrageous 3pt shots? The only improvement that anyone has seen is his height.

[malik959]

I hate these "player A is better now, but player B is projected to be better in 4 years" BS. Are we still saying the same thing about Knox over Mikal Bridges? Or Frank over Mitch? It's all on their work ethics., you get some players that come into the NBA and say "damn I didn't know they work this hard. Some get it and some don't . Some don't have to PRACTICE at all and still become great.

I'd rather go with player A is good right now and can get better (not placing a cap on him) Haliburton, over "oh he may only shoot 27% and shoots from his hip, but in 3 years he'll be great because his dad said so", Ball. I'd rather go with a player that has a dog mentality to take over a game when the team needs him most and is a threat from inside and out where opponents look to get the ball out of his hands because they know he will destroy you, Cole.

Understood if you want someone with a projected higher ceiling hen you have to make do. Since none of the others are ready made (but supposedly have higher ceilings) you have to look at projected improvement. Isthe player improving or regressing?If they are improving what is that the of improvement - age and experience play into this. Level of competition, plays into this as well. Lamelo could definitely improve, Hayes showed incredible improvement during Eurocup. Cole.....

So really we just have to leave it to the scouts to do what they do best. Or we could just play it "safe" with Haliburton. I put safe in quotes because Haliburton could surprise us.

Where has Melo improved? Did his shooting percentage increase? Is he more athletic? Does he no longer take outrageous 3pt shots? The only improvement that anyone has seen is his height. But I do agree with you on Haliburton, I feel that he is our safest bet and has shown that improvement from year one.

[malik959]

didnt he outplay cole when they played each other?

He went 9/23 fg, 2/7 from 3, and 5 TO and lost by 9pts to a sorry team, yeah you can say he out played Anthony

And cole anthony went 4-13 fg 1/3 from 3 and 6 TO's...

and I was told Cole Anthony had a horrible season because his team stunk? Are they better than Alabama? If so then shouldn't Kira Lewis also get credit for having a better year on a worse team?

North Carolina as a whole was a much worse shooting team and in fact one of the worst in the league. Bama was at lease an above 50% team in wins. Bama should have never lose to them in the first place. Bama lost a lot of winable games this year, not because they were sorry.

[malik959]

I may go back and watch that Alabama vs Iowa game again sense Haliburton put the clamps on Lewis that game

[mrpoetryNmotion]

The PG debate is interesting on here, I will say. I think we need throw a poll up in the next thread.

I like Killian, but I question a lot about his feel for the game and his mentality. I think Frank would clamp him up in practice and seal the starting spot due to his weak handle, inability to go right, lack of burst and mechanical moves. I don't particularly think he is a bad prospect, but he is going to take some years, and even then, there is no telling, especially when you're talking about developing the right mental game to pair along with the tools in his toolbag.

Cole underperformed, and is certainly not as athletic/explosive as other guys. I do see a world where he is a solid pick. I don't particularly see him as an all star caliber player unless he has some unexpected Dame Lillard type turn and just starts drilling unexpected jumpers. I otherwise am not the biggest believer in his athletic ability, but I think the floor will be more open for him in college. I think he has been getting humbled hearing all this talk about his game and the league will perhaps humble him some more. But I can see him being a solid player off the bench at a minimum.

Haliburton doesn't wow me but is someone I believe will know how to play and maximize his abilities from day 1. Smart player, but has some limitations.

Lamelo you take on potential that he stops taking trash shots and becomes more deferential to his teammates. His body and corresponding scoring package is not yet refined/developed enough for him to be trigger happy in the league. You take him because he theoretically has a high feel for the game and should be able grease the machine that is our offense--find guys on the break, get Knox the ball in good spots so he can be confident (and we can get some utility out of him), throw lobs to Mitch, etc. You hope that his some Luka type magic, because you could be quite disappointed otherwise. Lonzo got humbled real quick, so we'll see what happens with Lamelo.

Honestly, I'm not really feeling any particular prospect in this draft. For all I know, Okoro could be the best player in this draft after he develops a jump shot/solid offensive game and starts locking people down on defense.

[HEZI]

correct production just doesn't come in PPG. It can come in playmaking as well especially when you are looking for a PG. It can come in the form of defense and rebounding for big men.

I wouldn't say 17 8 and 7 as an 18 year old isn't "production"

Just like 19 5 and 3 is production for edwards.

18 / 6 / 4

Production

So you drooling over a player that left a lot to be desired while at the same time knocking another player that left a lot to be desired

Now we getting deeper in this convo

Because one is a true playmaker (nearly a 3:1 assist to turnover ratio). The other doesn't have that skill set.

So that is where after I take a look at there production, I like the projection of one guard who is a 6'7 playmaker rather than a shoot first guard.

The 6'7" playmaker is also extremely inefficient that shoots more and scores less than the scoring PG we're talking about but that is your preference

[HEZI]

I may go back and watch that Alabama vs Iowa game again sense Haliburton put the clamps on Lewis that game

Not just put the clamps on him but worked him into submission offensively

[HEZI]

I think its a combination of both. Its a combination of what they did and what they can become by taking there skill set and trying to translate it to the NBA game. Its challenging because these guys are so young and we have very little worthwhile tape on most of these guys outside of the multi year college guys.

You have to do some projectability with prospects though. Othwise Grant Riller would be one of the first PG's off the board.

Or the fact that Derrick Rose only college year he scored 14pts 4.5 rebs and 4.5 assists. Which is nothing to stop you in your tracks. But there are other factors in play along with using there college/overseas production.

This 100%^^ It's like some people forget that players get better as they grow and some of them just fit the NBA game better and really blow up once there and adjusted. Lonzo couldn't shoot ion college either, neither could D.Fox and i could go on and on and on but you can't just go off of what these kids have done in college or overseas and that's where the professional scouts and GM's come in.

Actualy...... Lonzo Ball was a good shooter in College. He had a 55% Fg, 41% 3pt, 68% efg%. If we compare the two Lonzo was definitely the better player at the same age, more under control, better defense, more athletic.

Yeah Lonzo's feel for the game was just better, way better. Still is

[HEZI]

Kira Lewis wasn't great against teams with winning records. He gets bullied when going against guards that are bigger and his overall defense sucks, while Cole can at lease stay in front of his man. Kira Lewis played with teammates that shot above 40% so he could depend on them more and could pass the ball to them knowing that they could do something with it, while Cole's team as a whole shot 30% from 3 (keep in mind Anthony Harris only had 7 shots and averaged 42.9, eliminate him and that average shoots to 25%). Stats don't tell the whole story on players, sometimes you actually have to watch a player play, and Cole keeps his team moving with his quick decision passing, but I've seen on so many occasions where he had a GREAT pass and his teammates turned it over. He put up a lot of last second 3 pt shots where his team gives it to him while he was positioned poorly due to double teams. Another difference is Cole comes into a game expecting teams to come after him alone. It showed when he played against Florida St and also Duke where defenses keyed in on him every time he touched the ball, make one move and a second defender steps up in the lane.

didnt he outplay cole when they played each other?

He went 9/23 fg, 2/7 from 3, and 5 TO and lost by 9pts to a sorry team, yeah you can say he out played Anthony

[HEZI]

then why aren't you suggesting Grant Riller over Cole Anthony then?

Because he's not a better shooter than Cole even as a senior

If we are going to take a young player with potential then the base with which they are coming in with needs to be high quality. Having said that I do see some sleeper pick options available and Riller is one of those guys. Winston and Tre Jones are other candidates from the PG spot as well.

I've been on the T.Jones train for a while and would love to get him late and i brought up C.Winston a couple times to see what people think of him a while back but never got any replies about him. I wouldn't mind taking either with the Clippers 1st and Charlotte 2nd rounder.

I like both, even if they turn out to be backups at best. Tre got that fire which his brother lacks so I think he's going to be better than Tyus and he might already be a better shooter than him too. Cassius is just that savvy general you love to have out there controlling your team.

[HEZI]

He went 9/23 fg, 2/7 from 3, and 5 TO and lost by 9pts to a sorry team, yeah you can say he out played Anthony

And cole anthony went 4-13 fg 1/3 from 3 and 6 TO's...

and I was told Cole Anthony had a horrible season because his team stunk? Are they better than Alabama? If so then shouldn't Kira Lewis also get credit for having a better year on a worse team?

North Carolina as a whole was a much worse shooting team and in fact one of the worst in the league. Bama was at lease an above 50% team in wins. Bama should have never lose to them in the first place. Bama lost a lot of winable games this year, not because they were sorry.

It was basically the same team Sexton had but way more experienced so they should have been better but with Kira they were actually worse than they were with Sexton.

[3toheadmelo]

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[robillionaire]

i'd take a look at kira at 27 because we need guards, but I don't think he's a lotto pick. would take cole over him

[mpharris36]

18 / 6 / 4

Production

So you drooling over a player that left a lot to be desired while at the same time knocking another player that left a lot to be desired

Now we getting deeper in this convo

Because one is a true playmaker (nearly a 3:1 assist to turnover ratio). The other doesn't have that skill set.

So that is where after I take a look at there production, I like the projection of one guard who is a 6'7 playmaker rather than a shoot first guard.

The 6'7" playmaker is also extremely inefficient that shoots more and scores less than the scoring PG we're talking about but that is your preference

that is like 99% of peoples preference. I don't think I am going out on a limb for having LaMelo Ball rated higher than Cole Anthony.

[robillionaire]

from what I watched of alabama i was more impressed with john petty, that kid can shoot the rock, maybe worth a look as a two way deal if he goes undrafted, could become a shooting specialist or 3 and D guy

[HEZI]

Because one is a true playmaker (nearly a 3:1 assist to turnover ratio). The other doesn't have that skill set.

So that is where after I take a look at there production, I like the projection of one guard who is a 6'7 playmaker rather than a shoot first guard.

The 6'7" playmaker is also extremely inefficient that shoots more and scores less than the scoring PG we're talking about but that is your preference

that is like 99% of peoples preference. I don't think I am going out on a limb for having LaMelo Ball rated higher than Cole Anthony.

I'm not talking to that 99% of people right now, am I? Currently I'm just talking with you individually. Don't care about their opinion at this moment unless they want to jump into the discussion but I am interested in what you have to say.

Earlier you were talking about efficiency and percentages, remember the .5% in shooting and how it makes a huge difference over the course of a season. Lets get back to that. So, Lamelo's shooting numbers, yikes! Even Lamelo's playmaking, he averaged 6.8 assists while Cole averaged 4. The way his playmaking is hyped up you would think the dude was out there averaging double digits in assists, like Trae Young and Ja Morant did, yet he wasn't. Lonzo Ball averaged more assists in college than Lamelo has and he was a much more efficient scorer. Thoughts?