Political Roundtable Part XXVIII

[Ruzious]

I wanted to float something out here...

I am all for defund and reimagine the PF. But I am thinking this should apply to any local, state or federal program or institution.

I am going to pick schools as a comparison example (go figure ).

A local community has a theoretical population of 100K. They have a failing school system and a failing PF.

Defunding and then reimaging the PF makes total sense. Rebuild it against what you actually want to accomplish now. The previous PF was probably established with different goals. That doesn't mean you can't have a PF that unionized - it would just need to be a different union with different rules and protections.

Same with a failing school or school district (SD). Defunding and reimagining makes total sense here as well. Rebuild it to look at the current objectives. The previous SD was probably established with goals from the 50s. Reimagine what that SD should accomplish now. Again, that doesn't mean you can't have a SD that unionized - it would just need to be a different union with different rules and protections.

The losers in this might be individual police officers or teachers. The biggest loser is going to be the unions. To do this the local governments would need cover from the voters to take this on. Are we ready for that.

And if we are honest, defunding and reimagining our institutions need to happen fairly often given the rapidly increasing changes to the world.

Thoughts?

I guess I don't understand exactly what the goal is. What do you expect to accomplish from this other than to weaken the police unions?

It was more of a general question.

With the PDs, we want to "temporarily" remove unions and reconstruct them to reduce the excessive use of force, have training to treat all people with respect, de-militarize them, increase community outreach, reduce unnecessary searches and seizures, as much as possible break down the "blue wall". And if possible, add mental health experts, a domestic abuse experts, drug addiction specialists and social workers to respond to those issues rather than police.

Once that has been completed, then you can add the unions back into PDs.

Where you have a failing school, you do the same. You reconstruct the school to succeed.

And then layer the unions back in after the transition has been completed.

But this could be any part of government that needs to be reimagined to succeed.

I still don't get it. Why can't you do all those good things without "defunding" and tearing things down?

[dckingsfan]

I guess I don't understand exactly what the goal is. What do you expect to accomplish from this other than to weaken the police unions?

It was more of a general question.

With the PDs, we want to "temporarily" remove unions and reconstruct them to reduce the excessive use of force, have training to treat all people with respect, de-militarize them, increase community outreach, reduce unnecessary searches and seizures, as much as possible break down the "blue wall". And if possible, add mental health experts, a domestic abuse experts, drug addiction specialists and social workers to respond to those issues rather than police.

Once that has been completed, then you can add the unions back into PDs.

Where you have a failing school, you do the same. You reconstruct the school to succeed.

And then layer the unions back in after the transition has been completed.

But this could be any part of government that needs to be reimagined to succeed.

I still don't get it. Why can't you do all those good things without "defunding" and tearing things down?

In the case of the PDs, the unions simply won't let you do that.

In the case of the schools, teachers and administrators are the blocking agents.

They do what they do and do not want to change.

[Zonkerbl]

I think in education, with the same spirit of "replace harmful actors with helpful ones," you want to teach more of what we are good at - running businesses, engineering solutions to novel problems, managing people, managing your managers - a lot more emotional intelligence training and a lot less rocket science. In math that means less calculus and calculus prep (algebra) and a lot more statistics. The problem with statistics is we are evolved to do statistical analysis innately, in our gut, and to learn to do it deliberately in our conscious mind seems like a waste of time. It's still useful to do though.

Yeah I don't think teacher's unions are part of a white supremacy control scheme. Also, you can replace one kind of teacher with another and still be working within the teachers union's purview. Cops have separate unions from the other social workers, which is a problem.

[pancakes3]

you can tell a lot about a person just by proposing "year round school" around them and see what their response is.

there's really no good reason to justify a 3 month hiatus from school but you'll still have ppl getting red faced and stammering "that's just not how we do things"

[Zonkerbl]

you can tell a lot about a person just by proposing "year round school" around them and see what their response is.

there's really no good reason to justify a 3 month hiatus from school but you'll still have ppl getting red faced and stammering "that's just not how we do things"

That would be... SO helpful. You have any idea how expensive summer camps are? Yeesh.

[Ruzious]

It was more of a general question.

With the PDs, we want to "temporarily" remove unions and reconstruct them to reduce the excessive use of force, have training to treat all people with respect, de-militarize them, increase community outreach, reduce unnecessary searches and seizures, as much as possible break down the "blue wall". And if possible, add mental health experts, a domestic abuse experts, drug addiction specialists and social workers to respond to those issues rather than police.

Once that has been completed, then you can add the unions back into PDs.

Where you have a failing school, you do the same. You reconstruct the school to succeed.

And then layer the unions back in after the transition has been completed.

But this could be any part of government that needs to be reimagined to succeed.

I still don't get it. Why can't you do all those good things without "defunding" and tearing things down?

In the case of the PDs, the unions simply won't let you do that.

In the case of the schools, teachers and administrators are the blocking agents.

They do what they do and do not want to change.

For schools, we have school boards - at least in Maryland counties.

[dobrojim]

you can tell a lot about a person just by proposing "year round school" around them and see what their response is.

there's really no good reason to justify a 3 month hiatus from school but you'll still have ppl getting red faced and stammering "that's just not how we do things"

for 2-3 years of my children's grade school (years 1-3), they attended a Fairfax Co ES that
had been singled out due to low achievement (lower socioeconomic neighborhood and first gen Americans)
and allowed to have year round school. It began in very late July with a ~ 10 week session. A 2 week
break in mid Oct, another session and an extended calendar year end break in Dec to early Jan then 2 more
sessions with 2 week breaks intervening and a 'normal' end of year in mid June.

We actually liked it quite a bit. But it was discontinued, the exact reasons for which escape me at the moment.
And my older one who I quoted here was identified as GT so after a year delay, we transferred
her and her sib to a GT Center school. Both transferred so we wouldn't have our kids on different calendars.

So it (year round school) can and has been done. I think the results of it were not spectacular failures or successes.
The travel and vacation industries don't like it much. VA used to have the Kings Dominion law that
forced schools to delay opening until after Labor day with some geographic exceptions allowed for
schools that might have more harsh winters and greater number of snow days.

[dckingsfan]

I still don't get it. Why can't you do all those good things without "defunding" and tearing things down?

In the case of the PDs, the unions simply won't let you do that.

In the case of the schools, teachers and administrators are the blocking agents.

They do what they do and do not want to change.

For schools, we have school boards - at least in Maryland counties.

Lots of the schools in Maryland are really solid. If a school is doing fine... you don't need to change.

I am talking about School Districts where the schools are failing miserably and the school boards can't affect change due to the intransience of the school administrators or the teachers unions or both.

[pancakes3]

while i'm sure that year-round schooling wouldn't have much of an effect on kids with stable family structures, it would prove tremendously valuable for the underprivileged.

maybe kids can have PTO like adults do, where they get 3 weeks off, no questions asked.

[dobrojim]

the less advantaged a kid is in terms of family background etc,
the more advantage there would likely be to attending a year round school.
I doubt there is much question about this.

[Wizardspride]

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[I_Like_Dirt]

I wanted to float something out here...

I am all for defund and reimagine the PF. But I am thinking this should apply to any local, state or federal program or institution.

I am going to pick schools as a comparison example (go figure ).

A local community has a theoretical population of 100K. They have a failing school system and a failing PF.

Defunding and then reimaging the PF makes total sense. Rebuild it against what you actually want to accomplish now. The previous PF was probably established with different goals. That doesn't mean you can't have a PF that unionized - it would just need to be a different union with different rules and protections.

Same with a failing school or school district (SD). Defunding and reimagining makes total sense here as well. Rebuild it to look at the current objectives. The previous SD was probably established with goals from the 50s. Reimagine what that SD should accomplish now. Again, that doesn't mean you can't have a SD that unionized - it would just need to be a different union with different rules and protections.

The losers in this might be individual police officers or teachers. The biggest loser is going to be the unions. To do this the local governments would need cover from the voters to take this on. Are we ready for that.

And if we are honest, defunding and reimagining our institutions need to happen fairly often given the rapidly increasing changes to the world.

Thoughts?

Absolutely this makes sense. Start with the police just out of opportunity but I do think restructuring the foundations of different government programs would be wise. You mention education and I agree. I actually think the best place to start there might be post-secondary education which is also facing a bit of an opportunity here thanks to pandemic complications, and while there are definitely differences, following that up with earlier schooling that ties into post-secondary would flow pretty nicely.

In the end, the order doesn't matter but I would suggest that this is a good idea beyond simply the benefits of better programs. Climate change isn't slowing down just because the world has other problems and we're going to see governments forced to change whether they like it or not and having practiced shifting gears on the fly seems like a positive to me. I think we're getting a pretty useful preview of how well countries are going to be able to tackle the issues of climate change. There isn't a lot of time left to prepare for it, either. Some countries will dramatically swing the other way and that may help - the US may actually be one of those. It's sort of depressing to that end so it would be nice to see some more dramatic moves coming from anywhere.

[DCZards]

In the case of the PDs, the unions simply won't let you do that.

In the case of the schools, teachers and administrators are the blocking agents.

They do what they do and do not want to change.

Anyone with behind-the-scenes knowledge of what’s going on in pubic education knows that there is a ton of good that teachers and their unions do everyday for our schools and our children. Things that don't make headlines. For example, unions have been the leading voice in ensuring that classroom teachers have access to career-long professional development. (They are often the source of that training.) Unions have also been at the forefront of advocating for increased pay and better working conditions for educators and for small, manageable class sizes. Both of which are critical to improving public education.

And it’s been teachers and their unions that have consistently lobbied against the over reliance on standardized testing and fought for schools with wrap around services that provide students, especially low-income kids, with after-school programs and tutoring, as well as social services and job training for students and their families.

What unions are most often accused of doing wrong is “protecting bad teachers.” But let’s not forget that it’s the school district and administrators (not the union) that hire those bad teachers. And when districts seek to fire those same teachers, the union is more often than not simply fulfilling its legal obligation to ensure that those teachers receive due process.

Teachers unions are certainly not without their flaws. In fact, they, like most institutions, have plenty of shortcomings. But teacher unions do a helluva lot more good than people realize…or give them credit for.

[dckingsfan]

In the case of the PDs, the unions simply won't let you do that.

In the case of the schools, teachers and administrators are the blocking agents.

They do what they do and do not want to change.

Anyone with behind-the-scenes knowledge of what’s going on in pubic education knows that there is a ton of good that teachers and their unions do everyday for our schools and our children. Things that don't make headlines. For example, unions have been the leading voice in ensuring that classroom teachers have access to career-long professional development. (They are often the source of that training.) Unions have also been at the forefront of advocating for increased pay and better working conditions for educators and for small, manageable class sizes. Both of which are critical to improving public education.

And it’s been teachers and their unions that have consistently lobbied against the over reliance on standardized testing and fought for schools with wrap around services that provide students, especially low-income kids, with after-school programs and tutoring, as well as social services and job training for students and their families.

What unions are most often accused of doing wrong is “protecting bad teachers.” But let’s not forget that it’s the school district and administrators (not the union) that hire those bad teachers. And when districts seek to fire those same teachers, the union is more often than not simply fulfilling its legal obligation to ensure that those teachers receive due process.

Teachers unions are certainly not without their flaws. In fact, they, like most institutions, have plenty of shortcomings. But teacher unions do a helluva lot more good than people realize…or give them credit for.

They are also the first to fight for status quo... It isn't that you don't want the unions. It is that first the schools need to be reimagined, processes put in place and then reintroduce the unions.

They do what they do... but in failing schools unions (and administrators) are in the way.

[DCZards]

In the case of the PDs, the unions simply won't let you do that.

In the case of the schools, teachers and administrators are the blocking agents.

They do what they do and do not want to change.

Anyone with behind-the-scenes knowledge of what’s going on in pubic education knows that there is a ton of good that teachers and their unions do everyday for our schools and our children. Things that don't make headlines. For example, unions have been the leading voice in ensuring that classroom teachers have access to career-long professional development. (They are often the source of that training.) Unions have also been at the forefront of advocating for increased pay and better working conditions for educators and for small, manageable class sizes. Both of which are critical to improving public education.

And it’s been teachers and their unions that have consistently lobbied against the over reliance on standardized testing and fought for schools with wrap around services that provide students, especially low-income kids, with after-school programs and tutoring, as well as social services and job training for students and their families.

What unions are most often accused of doing wrong is “protecting bad teachers.” But let’s not forget that it’s the school district and administrators (not the union) that hire those bad teachers. And when districts seek to fire those same teachers, the union is more often than not simply fulfilling its legal obligation to ensure that those teachers receive due process.

Teachers unions are certainly not without their flaws. In fact, they, like most institutions, have plenty of shortcomings. But teacher unions do a helluva lot more good than people realize…or give them credit for.

They are also the first to fight for status quo... It isn't that you don't want the unions. It is that first the schools need to be reimagined, processes put in place and then reintroduce the unions.

They do what they do... but in failing schools unions (and administrators) are in the way.

Teachers, their unions and administrators are far from the primary reason that some schools are failing. The main reason most of these schools are failing is the societal neglect of schools/institutions that educate and serve poor black and brown kids, as well as our failure to adequately fund these institutions.

The sooner we recognize this reality and stop blaming those hardworking, under appreciated men and women who work in those schools and other institutions that serve our disadvantaged communities--and put our collective will (and resources) into doing something about their plight--the sooner we're going to be on the path to true school reform, police reform, housing reform, economic reform, etc.

Let's stop fiddling around the edges and pointing fingers and instead let's bring everybody to the table, including teachers, police officers and the unions that represent them. That's the only way I see anything really being accomplished. Ujima!

[dckingsfan]

Anyone with behind-the-scenes knowledge of what’s going on in pubic education knows that there is a ton of good that teachers and their unions do everyday for our schools and our children. Things that don't make headlines. For example, unions have been the leading voice in ensuring that classroom teachers have access to career-long professional development. (They are often the source of that training.) Unions have also been at the forefront of advocating for increased pay and better working conditions for educators and for small, manageable class sizes. Both of which are critical to improving public education.

And it’s been teachers and their unions that have consistently lobbied against the over reliance on standardized testing and fought for schools with wrap around services that provide students, especially low-income kids, with after-school programs and tutoring, as well as social services and job training for students and their families.

What unions are most often accused of doing wrong is “protecting bad teachers.” But let’s not forget that it’s the school district and administrators (not the union) that hire those bad teachers. And when districts seek to fire those same teachers, the union is more often than not simply fulfilling its legal obligation to ensure that those teachers receive due process.

Teachers unions are certainly not without their flaws. In fact, they, like most institutions, have plenty of shortcomings. But teacher unions do a helluva lot more good than people realize…or give them credit for.

They are also the first to fight for status quo... It isn't that you don't want the unions. It is that first the schools need to be reimagined, processes put in place and then reintroduce the unions.

They do what they do... but in failing schools unions (and administrators) are in the way.

Teachers, their unions and administrators are far from the primary reason that some schools are failing. The main reason most of these schools are failing is the societal neglect of schools/institutions that educate and serve poor black and brown kids, as well as our failure to adequately fund these institutions.

The sooner we recognize this reality and stop blaming those hardworking, under appreciated men and women who work in those schools and other institutions that serve our disadvantaged communities--and put our collective will (and resources) into doing something about their plight--the sooner we're going to be on the path to true school reform, police reform, housing reform, economic reform, etc.

Let's stop fiddling around the edges and pointing fingers and instead let's bring everybody to the table, including teachers, police officers and the unions that represent them. That's the only way I see anything really being accomplished. Ujima!

We have been trying to do that for decades... with only backward movement. Once an institution is in place it fights not to change. That is a tired mantra that just isn't effective. We need to move away from that failing mantra.

Especially the "stop blaming the hardworking... pick the worker" mantra. No one is blaming them that is a strawman argument. It is a systematic problem. It is the construct of the institution that is the problem. The only reason there is some success is that those good workers work around the system. Think of how well they could do in a better construct than the one from the 50s.

And no, many failing schools that were decommissioned and recommissioned succeeded. So, there is that...

[DCZards]

We have been trying to do that for decades... with only backward movement. Once an institution is in place it fights not to change. That is a tired mantra that just isn't effective. We need to move away from that failing mantra.

Especially the "stop blaming the hardworking... pick the worker" mantra. No one is blaming them that is a strawman argument. It is a systematic problem. It is the construct of the institution that is the problem. The only reason there is some success is that those good workers work around the system. Think of how well they could do in a better construct than the one from the 50s.

And no, many failing schools that were decommissioned and recommissioned succeeded. So, there is that...

Well, if you want teachers and police officers (the frontline workers) to buy into the changes and reforms you want to make, it's smart to have them and/or their representatives at the table...as well as the community, parents and other stakeholders. Topdown changes never work.

[Wizardspride]

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[Ruzious]

They are also the first to fight for status quo... It isn't that you don't want the unions. It is that first the schools need to be reimagined, processes put in place and then reintroduce the unions.

They do what they do... but in failing schools unions (and administrators) are in the way.

Teachers, their unions and administrators are far from the primary reason that some schools are failing. The main reason most of these schools are failing is the societal neglect of schools/institutions that educate and serve poor black and brown kids, as well as our failure to adequately fund these institutions.

The sooner we recognize this reality and stop blaming those hardworking, under appreciated men and women who work in those schools and other institutions that serve our disadvantaged communities--and put our collective will (and resources) into doing something about their plight--the sooner we're going to be on the path to true school reform, police reform, housing reform, economic reform, etc.

Let's stop fiddling around the edges and pointing fingers and instead let's bring everybody to the table, including teachers, police officers and the unions that represent them. That's the only way I see anything really being accomplished. Ujima!

We have been trying to do that for decades... with only backward movement. Once an institution is in place it fights not to change. That is a tired mantra that just isn't effective. We need to move away from that failing mantra.

Especially the "stop blaming the hardworking... pick the worker" mantra. No one is blaming them that is a strawman argument. It is a systematic problem. It is the construct of the institution that is the problem. The only reason there is some success is that those good workers work around the system. Think of how well they could do in a better construct than the one from the 50s.

And no, many failing schools that were decommissioned and recommissioned succeeded. So, there is that...

Maybe I misread what you said before. I thought you were saying that teachers shouldn't have control over what they do - implying they are the problem.

[dckingsfan]

Teachers, their unions and administrators are far from the primary reason that some schools are failing. The main reason most of these schools are failing is the societal neglect of schools/institutions that educate and serve poor black and brown kids, as well as our failure to adequately fund these institutions.

The sooner we recognize this reality and stop blaming those hardworking, under appreciated men and women who work in those schools and other institutions that serve our disadvantaged communities--and put our collective will (and resources) into doing something about their plight--the sooner we're going to be on the path to true school reform, police reform, housing reform, economic reform, etc.

Let's stop fiddling around the edges and pointing fingers and instead let's bring everybody to the table, including teachers, police officers and the unions that represent them. That's the only way I see anything really being accomplished. Ujima!

We have been trying to do that for decades... with only backward movement. Once an institution is in place it fights not to change. That is a tired mantra that just isn't effective. We need to move away from that failing mantra.

Especially the "stop blaming the hardworking... pick the worker" mantra. No one is blaming them that is a strawman argument. It is a systematic problem. It is the construct of the institution that is the problem. The only reason there is some success is that those good workers work around the system. Think of how well they could do in a better construct than the one from the 50s.

And no, many failing schools that were decommissioned and recommissioned succeeded. So, there is that...

Maybe I misread what you said before. I thought you were saying that teachers shouldn't have control over what they do - implying they are the problem.

Ah, sorry. No they are the only thing holding the old poor construct together. But the construct is dated and needs to be revamped (with urgency for failing schools).