Gordon Hayward Thread

[hugepatsfan]

A. Gordon fits well here IMO. Issue is that ORL would need to send back more salary to match. They don't have a piece to do that other than Aminu or Terrence Ross. Both of those are multi year salaries. Aminu would be more likely because he's a lesser player and less years on his deal so makes more sense for them/us.

The reason to trade Hayward would be that we don't want to extend him, If our budget can withstand paying A. Gordon plus Aminu $30M past next season then that just doesn't logically add up. It's contradictory to the reason for trading Hayward in the first place.

[Skybox]

ORL sends: Aaron Gordon and Terrence Ross
BOS sends: Gordon Hayward and Romeo Langford

*I'm counting on reps discussing reasonable extension for Hayward at his new home. A reasonable extension for Hayward is still a LOT more than a BOS should be paying their 3rd or 4th star but Ross and Gordon strengthen BOS immediately. Langford may or may not become something but ORL is on a different timeline. Ross and AG contribute significantly today to BOS's depth and versatility on both ends. Both are better on a team with three other guys who can routinely put up 20+ ppg. Smart and AG are elite defensively and able to contribute within their roles on the other end and aren't afraid of the bright lights. ...each of the 3 principal guys in this trade are in a better situation to play like they should and the fourth (Langford) gets a chance to blossom too with lower stakes and less talent ahead of him at his spot.

[hugepatsfan]

ORL sends: Aaron Gordon and Terrence Ross
BOS sends: Gordon Hayward and Romeo Langford

*I'm counting on reps discussing reasonable extension for Hayward at his new home. A reasonable extension for Hayward is still a LOT more than a BOS should be paying their 3rd or 4th star but Ross and Gordon strengthen BOS immediately. Langford may or may not become something but ORL is on a different timeline. Ross and AG contribute significantly today to BOS's depth and versatility on both ends. Both are better on a team with three other guys who can routinely put up 20+ ppg. Smart and AG are elite defensively and able to contribute within their roles on the other end and aren't afraid of the bright lights. ...each of the 3 principal guys in this trade are in a better situation to play like they should and the fourth (Langford) gets a chance to blossom too with lower stakes and less talent ahead of him at his spot.

Goes back to what I wrote in my last post... Gordon and Ross will make $31.6M next year and about $29M the year after. Then Ross would be on the books for one more year. If Boston can make that sort of financial commitment, why not just re-sign Hayward? He's the best player in the deal IMO.

[Skybox]

ORL sends: Aaron Gordon and Terrence Ross
BOS sends: Gordon Hayward and Romeo Langford

*I'm counting on reps discussing reasonable extension for Hayward at his new home. A reasonable extension for Hayward is still a LOT more than a BOS should be paying their 3rd or 4th star but Ross and Gordon strengthen BOS immediately. Langford may or may not become something but ORL is on a different timeline. Ross and AG contribute significantly today to BOS's depth and versatility on both ends. Both are better on a team with three other guys who can routinely put up 20+ ppg. Smart and AG are elite defensively and able to contribute within their roles on the other end and aren't afraid of the bright lights. ...each of the 3 principal guys in this trade are in a better situation to play like they should and the fourth (Langford) gets a chance to blossom too with lower stakes and less talent ahead of him at his spot.

Goes back to what I wrote in my last post... Gordon and Ross will make $31.6M next year and about $29M the year after. Then Ross would be on the books for one more year. If Boston can make that sort of financial commitment, why not just re-sign Hayward? He's the best player in the deal IMO.

Gordon and Ross are TWO people. That's the difference.

Both can significantly contribute. Hayward is the best player but he's not better than both of them together for a relatively shallow contending team like BOS.

[hugepatsfan]

ORL sends: Aaron Gordon and Terrence Ross
BOS sends: Gordon Hayward and Romeo Langford

*I'm counting on reps discussing reasonable extension for Hayward at his new home. A reasonable extension for Hayward is still a LOT more than a BOS should be paying their 3rd or 4th star but Ross and Gordon strengthen BOS immediately. Langford may or may not become something but ORL is on a different timeline. Ross and AG contribute significantly today to BOS's depth and versatility on both ends. Both are better on a team with three other guys who can routinely put up 20+ ppg. Smart and AG are elite defensively and able to contribute within their roles on the other end and aren't afraid of the bright lights. ...each of the 3 principal guys in this trade are in a better situation to play like they should and the fourth (Langford) gets a chance to blossom too with lower stakes and less talent ahead of him at his spot.

Goes back to what I wrote in my last post... Gordon and Ross will make $31.6M next year and about $29M the year after. Then Ross would be on the books for one more year. If Boston can make that sort of financial commitment, why not just re-sign Hayward? He's the best player in the deal IMO.

Gordon and Ross are TWO people. That's the difference.

Both can significantly contribute. Hayward is the best player but he's not better than both of them together for a relatively shallow contending team like BOS.

Can they significantly contribute though? How many minutes are there at the PG/SG/SF/PF spot? There are a total of 192 minutes in a game at those 4 spots.

Right now we have 5 key guy in Tatum/Kemba/Hayward/Brown/Smart. Let's assume that in the playoff rotation Tatum/Hayward/Brown/Kemba all play 35 minutes each. Smart plays 30. That's a combined 170 minutes already.

In this scenario you have Gordon being swapped out for Hayward. Then Ross is added. Boston could use their MLE on a bench wing. I doubt Ross could bring enough extra value over that player in the bench role to justify the downgrade in the starting lineup. A 2 for 1 deal like this would seem to strengthen our regular season rotation but it weakens our playoff rotation.

If Boston trades Hayward for Aaron Gordon I think it would be something like this:

Boston gets: F Aaron Gordon
ORL gets: F Gordon Hayward
3rd team with cap space/trade exception gets: F Aminu, 1st rounder from Boston.

For the Aminu salary dump I used last year's Tony Snell trade as a guide. In this case, Boston is making a downgrade to its team but there's at least financial incentive to do so. The money saved would probably get us under the tax this year. Then we have A. Gordon next year. We'll be pushed into the tax with Tatum's extension but now it'd be at the 1st year rate vs repeater.

This deal makes the team worse but gives you financial incentive to do so. It's a step back to help the finances. The deal with us taking back Ross hurts the team but doesn't help the finances. There's no sense in making a deal that doesn't do at least one of those things.

[hugepatsfan]

There were talks that Boston had interest in Gallinari at the trade deadline. MIA was a strong suitor for Hayward when he was a FA - now they are looking to hold fort for one more year before making a run at Giannis. How abut this as the framework of a deal if Hayward picks up his option?

BOS gives: F Gordon Hayward, G Carsen Edwards, C Vincent Poirer, F Semi Ojeleye, future protected top 20 protected pick
BOS gets: F Gallinari (3 year, $60M deal via S&T)

MIA gives: C Kelly Olynyk
MIA gets: F Gordon Hayward

OKC gives: F Danillo Gallinari (3 year, $60M deal via S&T)
OKC gets: F Kelly Olynyk, G Carsen Edwards, C Vincent Poirer, F Semi Ojeleye, future protected top 20 protected pick

Boston locks Gallo up on a 3 year deal that lines up perfectly with Hayward. His new 3 year deal probably would start at below $20M so probably gets us below the tax for one more year. Gallo is a good system fit and replaces what we lose.

MIA has cap space now but wants to use it on bigger guys next year. This lets them continue to build and progress with their young players without sacrificing flexibility.

OKC has reset their cap sheet so they won't be in sort of luxury tax crunch for taking on expiring deals. They get another future pick for taking on a year of Olynyk's salary and helping Boston with some roster cleanup.

[24istheLAW]

Gallo is a good player, but he doesn't fit with Tatum AT ALL. Fills the same role on offense. Tatum/Gallo frontcourt would problematic on defense. Swap Hayward for Gallo, and you've basically got off-ball guys at 1, 2, 3 and 4 positions. You are putting a ton of offense-initiating load on Tatum, who is more of a finisher than a creator.

If you send out Hayward, you either need to get a 5-man who can man the frontcourt with Tatum in a particularly harmonious way, or a playmaker back, who can find Tatum, Kemba, Jaylen in their spots.

[themoneyteam2]

Are we suggesting these trades with the salary cap turned off lol?

I mean in what world would trading Hayward and Langford (rookie contract for 3 more years) for Gordon and Ross financially make any sense?

[hugepatsfan]

Gallo is a good player, but he doesn't fit with Tatum AT ALL. Fills the same role on offense. Tatum/Gallo frontcourt would problematic on defense. Swap Hayward for Gallo, and you've basically got off-ball guys at 1, 2, 3 and 4 positions. You are putting a ton of offense-initiating load on Tatum, who is more of a finisher than a creator.

If you send out Hayward, you either need to get a 5-man who can man the frontcourt with Tatum in a particularly harmonious way, or a playmaker back, who can find Tatum, Kemba, Jaylen in their spots.

I very much disagree with Kemba being a "off ball" guy. His strength is running the pick and roll. Hayward is definitely a great playmaker but I wouldn't say he's a full on "point forward". Him and Kemba are both on ball/off ball players who can iso, P&R, make plays for others, space the floor. Tatum and especially Brown are the ones who still struggle to make plays for others.

You're absolutely right that our playmaking would go down but it's not like Gallo brings none of it. He brings back some of what we lose with Hayward. Kemba has done less of it here than he did in CHA so he could pick some back up. And then you hope it's something Brown and especially Tatum work on this offseason to help make up the slack.

I was't proposing this as a "make the team better trade". It was dealing with the financial reality we're in. If we keep Hayward once he opts in then we'll be a tax team. Then next year we'll be faced with either paying heavy repeater tax to keep him or let him walk for nothing. The trade I proposed allows us to stay below the tax this year ('20-21 season). Then the following year ('21-22 season) with Tatum's extension kicking in we go into the tax but not at repeater rates yet. Then the year after that ('22-23 season) we're in the tax at repeater rate. But it'd just be for one year because after it Kemba and Gallo would expire and we go back to having cap space to build around Tatum/Brown/maybe Smart if re-signed/rookies.

I proposed the deal understanding it's not an ideal thing basketball wise. It was about setting up our finances for the future. Keeping Hayward for one more year means the tax. You can try to re-sign him afterwards but the fact that we'd be in the tax this year makes that extra expensive because it'd be at repeater rates. In my Gallo deal we go no tax/1st year tax/repeater tax. If we tried to let Hayward play out his deal then re-sign we go tax/repeater tax/repeater tax. Much more expensive. You could let him walk to avoid the tax but now you're taking a big loss basketball wise whereas replacing with Gallo would be a more marginal loss as opposed to total. There's also the chance that Hayward would play out this year then in free agency draw offers for more than 2 years to keep, which hurts flexibility to try and get a new core around Brown/Tatum in a few years.

Ultimately I think a deal like this for Gallo sets us up real well to continue to compete at a very high level and also transition into a younger core around Tatum/Brown down the line.

[hugepatsfan]

Are we suggesting these trades with the salary cap turned off lol?

I mean in what world would trading Hayward and Langford (rookie contract for 3 more years) for Gordon and Ross financially make any sense?

It makes sense in this world. Hayward/Tatum make a combined $38.8M vs. $31.6 for Gordon/Ross in '20-21. So we save about $6.2M in '20-21.

In '21-22 Gordon/Ross make a combined $28.9M. Langford is on the books for $3.8M that year. So this deal is as feasible as re-signing Hayward to a deal at $25.1M would be.

If you think retaining Hayward beyond next season via either an opt out and extend this year or him just playing the option out and then re-signing then the Magic fan's deal would be financially feasible.

[SmartWentCrazy]

I don't think that's the reason we're trading Hayward in this scenario.

Yep— you deal him because our 140M+ in projected salary next season is crushing with a lower tax threshold. 120M is much more manageable.

Also, Gordon is a 4/5. Hayward is a 3/4. They dont play the same position.

Aaron Gordon is nothing like a 5...he regularly "plays" 3 due to Isaac's superior rim protection but is capable of defending 1-4. ORL's defense is very good but offense is zero. Swapping Gordon's would hurt ORL's D a little but help ORL's Offense a LOT. A bruising post Center will maul AG. He could MAYBE run a little 5 in some novelty short-term "death lineup" to try to run a plodding big guy into the ground but he's no C. If his 3pt% was 5 points higher like it was 2 years ago, everybody would be fine calling him a 3. The only reason he's available (maybe) is Isaac's emergence as a DPOY candidate with similar offensive limitations and Fultz's still-undeveloped scoring and shooting. ORL needs an offensive playmaker at 3 (like Hayward) to complement the others. AG is a very good player, IMO, just a matter of fit and trade value to me...skip ahead a year and, if Fultz is Washington Fultz again, scoring 22pg, I'd be thrilled to have AG and Isaac filling lanes, hitting open shots, and causing defensive mayhem - Fultz's progress/ceiling is the question mark we are trying to form around.

Were largely saying the same thing and I’m only advocating it to end games a la Draymond. He’s a true 4, IMO— 6’9 with a 7’ wingspan and a 9’ reach. He’s played the 3 out of necessity, but its not his game.

[ConstableGeneva]

Gordo's PO deadline falls on TimeLord and SexPants' birthday. I thought y'all should know.

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[Bleeding Green]

Are we suggesting these trades with the salary cap turned off lol?

I mean in what world would trading Hayward and Langford (rookie contract for 3 more years) for Gordon and Ross financially make any sense?

When you can make the roster worse with lower ceiling players and less future control, I think you have to do everything you can to make it happen. Tony Delk could come in and immediately drop 10 points a game on 9 shots. Off the bench, huge stuff. It isn't every day that you can trade a 20 year old, high upside rookie for a mediocre shooting guard on the back-half of his career. But when Tony Delk is just staring you down, you pull the trigger. And we didn't even bring up Rodney Rogers, who just makes this such an obvious winning trade.

[Bleeding Green]

Oh ****, I thought this was the Joe Johnson thread from 2001, my bad.

[ConstableGeneva]

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I believe he just shot himself in the foot when it comes to FA money. No team will invest big money on someone with a lingering foot issue.

Also, say goodbye to those trade ideas where you get back something/someone of significance. Good chance he just opts in his final year and negotiates an extension.

[Parliament10]

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[Ill News]

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My only hope is if we ever do get that far in the playoffs and Gordon returns after the birth of his son, is that he'll do a Fred VanVleet and go on a **** shooting tear which eventually tows us to a title.

[canman1971]

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That's a no-brainer decision and should be for any father.

[ConstableGeneva]

Trivia Question: Name the ONLY player in the NBA who averaged at least 17 points per game while having a usage rate no higher than 22% for the season.

[The_Ghost_of_JB]

Obviously that's a great decision by Hayward.

Does that mean he can't go back in the bubble after he leaves?