Isiah Thomas vs Chris Paul

[Jaivl]

I’m confused- Zeke was the best player on 2 championship teams

I was gonna say something about Billups, but then I saw your screen name. I realized your confusion was purely manufactured

I get what you are saying, but I don’t think it is clear that Billups was the best piston, while Isiah was definitely the best piston in those runs. Isiah was definitely a better player than Billups

Isiah was most definitely not the best Piston in 1989.

[Roscoe Sheed]

I was gonna say something about Billups, but then I saw your screen name. I realized your confusion was purely manufactured

I get what you are saying, but I don’t think it is clear that Billups was the best piston, while Isiah was definitely the best piston in those runs. Isiah was definitely a better player than Billups

Isiah was most definitely not the best Piston in 1989.

Who was?

[Lost92Bricks]

Joe Dumars finished higher than Isiah in MVP voting and made the All-NBA team over Isiah and won a Finals MVP over Isiah.

He also made the All-Defensive team while Isiah didn't.

[ardee]

It's Paul and not even close. He has 10 top 5 level seasons. You an argue Isiah doesn't even have 1.

Slight exaggeration. 08-17 minus 2010 due to injury is 9 at most. And like 4-5 of those years he either missed playoff games or had significant injuries. 09, 12, 15 and 16 at least. Also 2014+2017 he missed 20+ games both seasons. I figured by now the idea of Paul being some iron man was debunked.

I don't mean he was top 5 all those years but he was certainly in the discussion. And I would count 2018 as well, he has a case for 5th despite the missed games (kind of a weak year tbf).

I have him as:

2008: 2nd behind Kobe
2009: 4th behind LeBron, Kobe, Wade
2010: irrelevant
2011: 5th behind Dirk, Wade, LeBron, Dwight
2012: 3rd behind LeBron, KD
2013: 3rd behind LeBron, KD
2014: 3rd behind LeBron, KD (even with the missed games, he was clearly better than the likes of Griffin, Parker, Curry or Duncan)
2015: 1st (controversial but that's where I have him)
2016: 6th (behind LeBron, Curry, Westbrook, Durant, Kawhi)
2017: 5th-7th (behind LeBron, Westbrook, Curry, Kawhi. He's in the argument with Harden and Durant)
2018: 5th-7th (behind LeBron, Harden, Davis and Giannis. He's in the argument with Durant and Oladipo. 2018 Durant only played 10 more games than Paul and got absolutely killed from an impact stats perspective)

So top 5 from 2008-2015 minus 2010, and the same caliber for 3 more years but the league got progressively more loaded so he had more competition.

[jdzimme3]

Paul > Thomas but Paul sure does continue to be overrated on this board.

[Threetimes10]

Stockton and Paul are the most overrated players ever, and Isiah, Kobe and Iverson start to be underrated because of the advanced stats.

Advanced stats are very important and I think it helps a lot to analyze a player without a personal bias. But the advanced stats are still a work in progress in a lot of aspects.

What I'm trying to say is, we don't have any stat which can measure how you hurt your team for the shots you don't take.

I'll try to explain it: if you had a 5/15 in clutch possessions in a season, we all agree 33% is not a great %, but what if the rest of your team is 3/25 in those situations? You probably would help your team more taking that low % shot and making your stats worse.

Players like Paul or Stockton, who always play cerebral and don't take too much risky shots are overrated by advanced stats because stats don't penalize them for giving the ball to another player who could take a shot with so much worse success than them.

Also, longevity as well start to be a little bit overrated. Of course a longer and more consistent career should be pick over the shorter one, but if a guy tomorrow enter the league and he only plays for 3 years, averaging 40-20-20 and winning 3 rings, he should be considered for the GOAT for sure.

There are plenty of advanced stats that show Kobe's high impact as a player and don't just superficially look at efficiency. None of which suggest Iverson/Isiah are close to CP3/Stockton.

[AussieBuck]

Isiah doesn't actually have this many fans, this is just spillover of the Michael Jordan fan club

[In SVG We Trust]

Stockton and Paul are the most overrated players ever, and Isiah, Kobe and Iverson start to be underrated because of the advanced stats.

Advanced stats are very important and I think it helps a lot to analyze a player without a personal bias. But the advanced stats are still a work in progress in a lot of aspects.

What I'm trying to say is, we don't have any stat which can measure how you hurt your team for the shots you don't take.

I'll try to explain it: if you had a 5/15 in clutch possessions in a season, we all agree 33% is not a great %, but what if the rest of your team is 3/25 in those situations? You probably would help your team more taking that low % shot and making your stats worse.

Players like Paul or Stockton, who always play cerebral and don't take too much risky shots are overrated by advanced stats because stats don't penalize them for giving the ball to another player who could take a shot with so much worse success than them.

Also, longevity as well start to be a little bit overrated. Of course a longer and more consistent career should be pick over the shorter one, but if a guy tomorrow enter the league and he only plays for 3 years, averaging 40-20-20 and winning 3 rings, he should be considered for the GOAT for sure.

There are plenty of advanced stats that show Kobe's high impact as a player and don't just superficially look at efficiency. None of which suggest Iverson/Isiah are close to CP3/Stockton.

Can you post it?

[iggymcfrack]

Rebounding: Paul >> Thomas
Passing: Paul >>> Thomas
Scoring: Paul >>>>> Thomas
Shooting: Paul >>>>>>>> Thomas
Defense: Paul >>>>>>>>>> Thomas
Longevity: Paul >>>>>>>>> Thomas

It’s like comparing Karl Malone to Horace Grant. Like OK, Horace has the rings but it’s still no question who the better player is.

[BIGJ1ER]

I'm honestly surprised to see how many votes IT has, when in my opinion he's not even really comparable to CP3.

The rings argument is so silly. Zeke played on a better team, and he wasn't even the best player on that team. Cp3 has him beat in peak, prime and longevity, so just using rings to rank Zeke higher makes no sense to me.

[HeartBreakKid]

I'm honestly surprised to see how many votes IT has, when in my opinion he's not even really comparable to CP3.

The rings argument is so silly. Zeke played on a better team, and he wasn't even the best player on that team. Cp3 has him beat in peak, prime and longevity, so just using rings to rank Zeke higher makes no sense to me.

If Stephen A Smith read this he would probably say something along the lines of


"Wha-wha-wha-what!!!! How DARE you! Show the dis-RESPECT to a legend who put da team on his back, not once, TWO times." etc etc


Actually, I find it incredibly interesting how some people will have very powerful opinions that also seem to be the exact same as trolls like Stephen A Smith and Skip Bayless - wouldn't that make you reconsider your line of thought? It's like when the KKK guys start saying how Trump is the best.

[Jaivl]

Rebounding: Paul >> Thomas
Passing: Paul >>> Thomas
Scoring: Paul >>>>> Thomas
Shooting: Paul >>>>>>>> Thomas
Defense: Paul >>>>>>>>>> Thomas
Longevity: Paul >>>>>>>>> Thomas

It’s like comparing Karl Malone to Horace Grant. Like OK, Horace has the rings but it’s still no question who the better player is.

You left out the most important skill:

Winning: Thomas >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Paul

[iggymcfrack]

Rebounding: Paul >> Thomas
Passing: Paul >>> Thomas
Scoring: Paul >>>>> Thomas
Shooting: Paul >>>>>>>> Thomas
Defense: Paul >>>>>>>>>> Thomas
Longevity: Paul >>>>>>>>> Thomas

It’s like comparing Karl Malone to Horace Grant. Like OK, Horace has the rings but it’s still no question who the better player is.

You left out the most important skill:

Winning: Thomas >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Paul

Thomas won 2 titles, let’s not make him into Bill Russell. Like if you’re comparing Robert Harry to Karl Malone, you can say Horry was >>>>>>>>>>>>> at winning. Isiah was on some good teams, but it wasn’t a career long thing.

[pistons4ever]

This is as always a Joke


Isiah is so underrated.....obviously if he had played in Chicago ,Boston or los angeles people would say other things


And it is not only for the 2 titles ...people forget that he won a ncaa title with Indiana......

[HeartBreakKid]

This is as always a Joke


Isiah is so underrated.....obviously if he had played in Chicago ,Boston or los angeles people would say other things


And it is not only for the 2 titles ...people forget that he won a ncaa title with Indiana......

Walt Frazier played for New York yet is seldom given half the amount of respect from casual fans as Isiah Thomas. If anything Isiah Thomas playing against those big clubs helped his narrative, not hurt...

[jg77]

It's Zeke pretty easily for me. Basketball is played on the floor and not on a spreadsheet.

I wasn't alive when the Pistons had their run with Isiah but just look at the teams he had to go through to get to the finals. 3 final appearances, back to back championships....took Boston (all time great team w/ Bird, Mchale, Parish, and Dennis Johson) to 7 games in the ECF in 87 but lost and he took the Lakers to 7 games (another ATG team w/ Magic, Kareem, and Worthy) in the finals and lost. That's amazing.

[HeartBreakKid]

It's Zeke pretty easily for me. Basketball is played on the floor and not on a spreadsheet.

I wasn't alive when the Pistons had their run with Isiah but just look at the teams he had to go through to get to the finals. 3 final appearances, back to back championships....took Boston (all time great team w/ Bird, Mchale, Parish, and Dennis Johson) to 7 games in the ECF in 87 but lost and he took the Lakers to 7 games (another ATG team w/ Magic, Kareem, and Worthy) in the finals and lost. That's amazing.

Chris Paul plays basketball on a court...and more important than your "basketball is played on a floor not a spreadsheet" is "basketball is played with teammates not by yourself". The Bad Boy Pistons were more talented than the teams they beat, and his teams would win even if he played bad.

I mean you are saying the 1987 Lakers are an all time great team and putting Kareem Abdul Jabar in there? He was 40 years old...he averaged 13/4/1 on 46 TS% in that series - that isn't because Isiah Thomas was playing lockdown defense on him. You talk like it went 7 games because Isiah Thomas was so dominant, when he didn't do anything special. It's almost like because you think Isiah may have been the best player on his team, no one else on the Pistons gets any credit even though he played with 4 other all-stars.

You're basically just name dropping for the Celtics and Lakers without looking into context but not bothering to do the same with the Pistons. The Pistons had FIVE guys who were all-stars - they had five players who were better than late 80s Dennis Johnson when they were in their best years.

[jg77]

It's Zeke pretty easily for me. Basketball is played on the floor and not on a spreadsheet.

I wasn't alive when the Pistons had their run with Isiah but just look at the teams he had to go through to get to the finals. 3 final appearances, back to back championships....took Boston (all time great team w/ Bird, Mchale, Parish, and Dennis Johson) to 7 games in the ECF in 87 but lost and he took the Lakers to 7 games (another ATG team w/ Magic, Kareem, and Worthy) in the finals and lost. That's amazing.

Chris Paul plays basketball on a court...and more important than your "basketball is played on a floor not a spreadsheet" is "basketball is played with teammates not by yourself". The Bad Boy Pistons were more talented than the teams they beat, and his teams would win even if he played bad.

I mean you are saying the 1987 Lakers are an all time great team and putting Kareem Abdul Jabar in there? He was 40 years old...he averaged 13/4/1 on 46 TS% in that series - that isn't because Isiah Thomas was playing lockdown defense on him. You talk like it went 7 games because Isiah Thomas was so dominant, when he didn't do anything special. It's almost like because you think Isiah may have been the best player on his team, no one else on the Pistons gets any credit even though he played with 4 other all-stars.

You're basically just name dropping for the Celtics and Lakers without looking into context but not bothering to do the same with the Pistons. The Pistons had FIVE guys who were all-stars - they had five players who were better than late 80s Dennis Johnson when they were in their best years.

It's hard for me to argue w/ you if you were alive and watched these series cause you would obviously know more than I would. I still think it's an incredible feat by Isiah. I don't think there is any doubt that he was the leader of his teams.

I've watched CP3 have plenty of chances to advance his teams but he failed to do so.

[bondom34]

Always weird how the only points I ever see for Thomas involve no backing but "I watched" the games and built off team success when he wasn't at his peak when his team won its biggest and wasn't the best player at least one of those runs.

[cupcakesnake]

Always weird how the only points I ever see for Thomas involve no backing but "I watched" the games and built off team success when he wasn't at his peak when his team won its biggest and wasn't the best player at least one of those runs.

It's really hard to make one. I always had Zeke pencilled in lazily as a top 5 point guard. His career is so high profile as the poster boy of a team that was a worthy adversary to Bird, Magic AND Jordan. I was quite surprised to dig into his career and realize:
- How short his peak was as a player
- How his peak as a player didn't align with Detroit's success. He peaks as a player in the mid 80s in his early 20s, and doesn't start going on deep playoff runs until 3 years later.

Isiah Thomas was the best player on an awesome team. But the gap between him and the next best player(s) is a historical outlier for teams this good. There were many lengthy spans of time where Dumars, Dantley and even Laimbeer were driving team success. Not to mention this team went a legit 9 deep during their run, with 6 of those guys all-stars or former/future all-stars.

I give big credit to Isiah Thomas for being able to be a scorer as a small guard in the 80s. That is ridiculously impressive and part of why people in his era speak of his greatness.

I also think it's funny how people post things like "basketball is played on the court, not on a spreadsheet" and then start listing Isaiah's career accolades... so what you really mean is that 'basketball is played on a point-form list, not a spreadsheet'. Watching Chris Paul play, it's pretty clear he's one of the meanest, most well-rounded, most talented point guards to ever do it. I've rooted against Chris Paul for most of his career, but it's hard to look at his game and argue that almost any point guard was better than him at basketball.