Political Roundtable Part XXVIII

[dobrojim]

I think Hillary was stung by the nasty turn of politics in the Newt Gingrich "Contract on America" era (sic), and ever since was overly protective of her personal opinions and private self.

Yeah, I agree with this, and I think it pretty much defined her identity as a politician since then. In the 80s/90s she was a vocal advocate for change and was genuinely a progressive feminist. The Newt Gingrich class of Republicans beat her into submission with constant barrages of unfair misogynistic criticism that totally shaped the narrative around her to the point that she had to remake herself as a boring technocratic centrist. Her willingness to compromise and cave to Republican criticism really doomed her in a lot of ways.

I watched the Hillary documentary on Hulu a few months ago and it changed my perspective about her a little bit - I think she was constantly forced into lose-lose situations by bad actors.

This. Completely agree. Their propaganda worked extremely well. How much of that is her
fault is debatable but that she was the concentrated focus of a campaign to (character)
assassinate her is undeniable. Conservatives knew very well she was a threat.

[Wizardspride]

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[pancakes3]

Ladies and gents, the comedy stylings of Donald "Shecky" Trump:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-says-push-for-less-coronavirus-testing-was-sarcasm/ar-BB15YZZz?li=BBnb7Kz

He'll be here all week; actually several more months.

twist: he was kidding about him being sarcastic. very meta, very avante garde humor here.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa-funding/trump-administration-defends-defunding-covid-testing-in-texas-four-other-states-idUSKBN23V2JK

[Ruzious]

Ladies and gents, the comedy stylings of Donald "Shecky" Trump:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-says-push-for-less-coronavirus-testing-was-sarcasm/ar-BB15YZZz?li=BBnb7Kz

He'll be here all week; actually several more months.

twist: he was kidding about him being sarcastic. very meta, very avante garde humor here.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa-funding/trump-administration-defends-defunding-covid-testing-in-texas-four-other-states-idUSKBN23V2JK

So they're not going to upgrade the sites they call antiquated. They'll just unfund them. Problem solved. We don't need no steenking tests for a pandemic. Or... they misunderstood - thinking they heard pan flute instead of pandemic flu. So... now they have a million pan flutes in storage. Any takers? QVC? A continent?

[WallToWall]

As I look at the political atmosphere today, I can help but think that we are one supreme court vacancy away from having the already burning tinder box, light up the gas filled room.

[JWizmentality]

As I look at the political atmosphere today, I can help but think that we are one supreme court vacancy away from having the already burning tinder box, light up the gas filled room.

This "democracy" is hanging by a very thin rope. There are a number of things that can do irrevocable damage. And quite frankly I'm not sure it survives even if Trump gets roundly defeated in November.

[Zonkerbl]

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Was in a twitter conversation with a guy today who parroted all this BS. I was wondering where he got it from.

The other twenty cities HAVE SENATE REPRESENTATION. You IDIOT.

And what a racist little f@#$ he is. His opinion is garbage and worth nothing.

And DC's economy is 10% government lobbying and about 75% tech and innovation driven, the sectors that are going to drive the US economy into the future, not drag us into the past like Wyoming's climate killing mining jobs. Go suck on a rotten egg until you inhale it, you worthless soggy floating used toilet paper wad.

[Zonkerbl]

It's hard to dislike someone more than Trump but I dislike Tom Cotton more.

And Marion Barry is DEAD you racist garbage reek.

[pancakes3]

As I look at the political atmosphere today, I can help but think that we are one supreme court vacancy away from having the already burning tinder box, light up the gas filled room.

This "democracy" is hanging by a very thin rope. There are a number of things that can do irrevocable damage. And quite frankly I'm not sure it survives even if Trump gets roundly defeated in November.

well, the reason why our democracy is proving to be exceedingly fragile is that we never had a very strong democracy to begin with.

1/3 of the time, we had the worst incarnation of slavery in human history. half the time, women couldn't vote. it's still not a direct election, and instead filtered through the electoral college. tremendous barriers of entry to vote: not a holiday, no voter ID system in place yet insisting on having ID to vote, gerrymandering, etc.

[Wizardspride]

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[Fairview4Life]

It's hard to dislike someone more than Trump but I dislike Tom Cotton more.

And Marion Barry is DEAD you racist garbage reek.

Marion Barry created more jobs than Trump, thanks to Covid. Total, not per capita.

[Wizardspride]

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[WallToWall]

As I look at the political atmosphere today, I can help but think that we are one supreme court vacancy away from having the already burning tinder box, light up the gas filled room.

This "democracy" is hanging by a very thin rope. There are a number of things that can do irrevocable damage. And quite frankly I'm not sure it survives even if Trump gets roundly defeated in November.

I concur. If the supreme court were to need to be filled in the next 4 months, anyone who tilts left will be up in arms.

The left and right listen in their own echo chamber through social media and the "news", and become increasingly disagreeable, or rather, un-agreeable with opinions that aren't in their echo chamber. We, as a country, need to pull out of this.

[dobrojim]

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/26/us/politics/russia-afghanistan-bounties.html

Remarkably when I posted this to my fb page, a trumpster friend replied
by saying Afghans hate Russians too as if that had any relevance to the fact
that Russia is paying afghans to kill US soldiers and the President’s response
was to lobby the G7 to invite Russia back in.

[Wizardspride]

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[Pointgod]

Slight disagreement. I think Hillary was stung by the nasty turn of politics in the Newt Gingrich "Contract on America" era (sic), and ever since was overly protective of her personal opinions and private self. Frankly the Hillary that was leaked in her emails would have been a better candidate: tough, sarcastic, focused on the right details, with a pointed sense of humor and smart priorities. Instead she kept a tight sphincter control of her image and instead came off as sour, persnickety, and business-as-usual in an era where Business has been one of the dangers. She lost momentum to Bernie who was a clear choice for change, and Trump who was a force for change but not in a good way.

As for Biden. He's a wishy washy Democratic answer to Ronald Reagan and Shrub Bush: a good natured fella you can invite to any picnic. Politically he's a windsock. Whoever blows the most wind will find him turning in their direction. Right now progressive ideas are blowing that mighty wind so he turns that way for influence on policy.

I do think his running mate is critical. They are the back up point guard behind a veteran who has a lot of miles on court...

I think there was a significant dose of sexism there. She suffered the same fate against Obama in the primaries, too, only Obama was dramatically better at winning elections than Bernie was. When put under the microscope, I do think women face some obstacles that men simply don't. I don't love everything about Hillary or agree with everything she proposes but she's always been tough, super competent and doesn't suffer fools. That doesn't play well for women electorally when it comes to building a broad base. Biden, on the flipside is basically Trump but with his heart in the right place for the most part so nothing sticks to him for the same reasons. Hillary wasn't nearly so bullet proof. Obama wasn't, either, but just took everything and drowned it out with African American voter turnout everywhere. We know Obama took those hits, though, because those issues came out in Hillary's campaign, too.

I think you guys are thinking about this the wrong way. It’s obvious that Trump isn’t some master political strategist or genius. What we’re seeing now is proof that there is no strategy, only appeal to his own idiotic impulses. The reality is that Trump won by 80000 votes over 3 states. It was a complete fluke. Human beings try to rationalize probabilities that don’t make sense to us so that’s why we saw the past 4 years of time wasted on “the white working class” or profiles of the Nazis next door.

Change one variable that would affect turnout and Hillary wins. If Comey doesn’t announce an investigation weeks before the election, if the **** Mitch McConnell makes a bi partisan statement about Russian meddling, if Comey announces the FBI investigation into the Trump campaign then the fluke doesn’t happen. Simply put we’re living in the timeline where the probability of a Trump win was low but not entirely impossible. It just goes to show you at the end of the day the candidate should mean less than turning out to vote.

[montestewart]

It's hard to dislike someone more than Trump but I dislike Tom Cotton more.

And Marion Barry is DEAD you racist garbage reek.

Nixon: Oversaw a political-criminal empire, resigned in disgrace
Reagan/Bush: Deregulated and corrupted administration, Iran/Contra
Bush: Two never-ending wars, deregulated recession
Trump: The attention span of of a hyperactive child with a big bag of Skittles

Would you trust "those people" to keep America safe?

PS: Trump created the nationwide constituency to which Cotton (not a contributor to a well-rounded economy) sucks up to. Disliking him more than Trump elevates his status beyond merit. Some Arkansas politicians can rise beyond their childhood trailer, but he knows he never will, so he goes the Deep Red route to insure permanent power on a smaller scale but a national stage.

[I_Like_Dirt]

I think you're misunderstanding. With Biden, none of that stuff sticks anyway. This isn't about Trump. It's about voters as a group and the most ridiculous stuff sticks to women and minorities in ways it simply doesn't for others.

This whole idea about "if not for one thing then..." is ridiculous. The whole emails thing, the fantastical pedo pizza basement, if it wasn't one thing it would have been another. The kinds of double standards quietly applied by voters play out pretty shockingly at this point. Not shocking in that they exist but shocking in just how obvious they are by the results. The argument about "the candidate" hides a lot of stuff would-be Democratic voters would rather not own.

[Pointgod]

I think you're misunderstanding. With Biden, none of that stuff sticks anyway. This isn't about Trump. It's about voters as a group and the most ridiculous stuff sticks to women and minorities in ways it simply doesn't for others.

This whole idea about "if not for one thing then..." is ridiculous. The whole emails thing, the fantastical pedo pizza basement, if it wasn't one thing it would have been another. The kinds of double standards quietly applied by voters play out pretty shockingly at this point. Not shocking in that they exist but shocking in just how obvious they are by the results. The argument about "the candidate" hides a lot of stuff would-be Democratic voters would rather not own.

I agree with the bold here. It’s obvious that theres a clear double standard when it comes to white men that aren’t afforded to people of color and women. I think the 2020 polling shows that Joe Biden probably would have won in 2016 and I was saying the same thing as far back as a year ago.

I think where we differ is that I see Clinton as a fine candidate. She’s not just a standard Democratic candidate but standard political candidate from either party. People like Obama and Bill Clinton are really rare unicorns that don’t come along very often. Clinton ran a standard campaign, she just ran into the perfect storm of **** regarding Russian meddling, Comey announcing the investigation, Wikileaks, DNC conspiracy theories, **** media coverage. 538 had Trumps probability of winning the election at 30%. That’s 1 in 3. It shouldn’t have come as a surprise. The perfect candidate will never exist so the it’s up to the electorate to turnout for the party over an individual.

[I_Like_Dirt]

I think where we differ is that I see Clinton as a fine candidate. She’s not just a standard Democratic candidate but standard political candidate from either party. People like Obama and Bill Clinton are really rare unicorns that don’t come along very often. Clinton ran a standard campaign, she just ran into the perfect storm of **** regarding Russian meddling, Comey announcing the investigation, Wikileaks, DNC conspiracy theories, **** media coverage. 538 had Trumps probability of winning the election at 30%. That’s 1 in 3. It shouldn’t have come as a surprise. The perfect candidate will never exist so the it’s up to the electorate to turnout for the party over an individual.

What actually makes Bill and Obama special, though? Let's break it down. I think they're both very different candidates in general. Hillary isn't the dreamer Obama was but Bill was far closer to Biden in general. Hillary was probably more competent at the work side of things than either, and while she was definitely a hawk for the military was also definitely more progressive than either of them.

People just found reasons not to like Hillary. They didn't find reasons not to like Bill. They found reasons not to like Obama, too, but it wasn't on a big enough scale and the turnouy he drove was absolutely massive. The Democratic party is better than the Republicans on this front but still looks the other way with certain popular old men for political reasons. And it's a political symptom because of a social problem. The US (and Canada) are arguably among the better countries for women's rights but also among the least likely to vote for a woman to run the country.