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2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably)

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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1481 » by Showtime23 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:18 pm

Jcool0 wrote:
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give me Deni. He is the best sf prospect by a mile in terms of nba ready, well rounded, versatility.
Although I want Ball who is a transcendent playmaker, Deni can fill the hole at forward position.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1482 » by CjayC » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:14 pm

We'll get neither Ball or Avdija knowing our luck.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1483 » by MikeDC » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:43 pm

Avdija is my least favorite prospect for several reasons:
  • The fact he tears it up in the Israeli league but then does poorly in the EuroLeague is troubling. That's the trend for two seasons, and it suggests that his game's not going to hold up well as competition levels get higher.
  • Players being unable to make free throws is usually a predictor of problems. He's got two seasons + of being a downright bad free throw shooter. That's a troubling sign.
  • His defense and rebounding don't seem particularly great

I put all this together and try to imagine him as an NBA Player and I see a forward a tweener athletically in the classical bad sense of the word (tooslow for 3, too small and weak for 4).

But worse, he doesn't project to be a guy who does any of the basic NBA offensive roles very well. He doesn't project as a shooter, and he doesn't project as a guy who can drive. Good NBA players are at least a partial threat to do both, and a definite threat to do one of these things.

Thus, while in the abstract his above average handle looks good, in practice, you very quickly see that he's not a guy you want to run the PnR with, because he's no threat to drive and he's no threat to shoot. So you don't really want the ball in his hands.

But he's not a good shooter, so he's not really a guy you want to have off the ball spotting up either.

Thus, I don't really understand the "theory" of him as a meaningful contributor.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1484 » by Jcool0 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:22 pm

MikeDC wrote:Avdija is my least favorite prospect for several reasons:
  • The fact he tears it up in the Israeli league but then does poorly in the EuroLeague is troubling. That's the trend for two seasons, and it suggests that his game's not going to hold up well as competition levels get higher.
  • Players being unable to make free throws is usually a predictor of problems. He's got two seasons + of being a downright bad free throw shooter. That's a troubling sign.
  • His defense and rebounding don't seem particularly great

I put all this together and try to imagine him as an NBA Player and I see a forward a tweener athletically in the classical bad sense of the word (tooslow for 3, too small and weak for 4).

But worse, he doesn't project to be a guy who does any of the basic NBA offensive roles very well. He doesn't project as a shooter, and he doesn't project as a guy who can drive. Good NBA players are at least a partial threat to do both, and a definite threat to do one of these things.

Thus, while in the abstract his above average handle looks good, in practice, you very quickly see that he's not a guy you want to run the PnR with, because he's no threat to drive and he's no threat to shoot. So you don't really want the ball in his hands.

But he's not a good shooter, so he's not really a guy you want to have off the ball spotting up either.

Thus, I don't really understand the "theory" of him as a meaningful contributor.


You can see why he would be a top draft pick



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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1485 » by MikeDC » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:10 pm

Jcool0 wrote:
MikeDC wrote:Avdija is my least favorite prospect for several reasons:
  • The fact he tears it up in the Israeli league but then does poorly in the EuroLeague is troubling. That's the trend for two seasons, and it suggests that his game's not going to hold up well as competition levels get higher.
  • Players being unable to make free throws is usually a predictor of problems. He's got two seasons + of being a downright bad free throw shooter. That's a troubling sign.
  • His defense and rebounding don't seem particularly great

I put all this together and try to imagine him as an NBA Player and I see a forward a tweener athletically in the classical bad sense of the word (too slow for 3, too small and weak for 4).

But worse, he doesn't project to be a guy who does any of the basic NBA offensive roles very well. He doesn't project as a shooter, and he doesn't project as a guy who can drive. Good NBA players are at least a partial threat to do both, and a definite threat to do one of these things.

Thus, while in the abstract his above average handle looks good, in practice, you very quickly see that he's not a guy you want to run the PnR with, because he's no threat to drive and he's no threat to shoot. So you don't really want the ball in his hands.

But he's not a good shooter, so he's not really a guy you want to have off the ball spotting up either.

Thus, I don't really understand the "theory" of him as a meaningful contributor.


You can see why he would be a top draft pick


Not actually, because these sort of blurbs don't really address the points I'm raising at all.

For example, pointing out individually good performances in the Israeli league doesn't address why he performed so poorly in EuroLeague play, or why, in total, he's been a terrible free throw shooter across three seasons.

I mean, anyone can look pretty good when you pick out the highlights and good games. But that doesn't answer the questions raised by the sum total of his performances.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1486 » by Little Nathan » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:12 pm

Avdija doesn't do poorly in the Euroleague, he just isn't asked to do as much as in the (very weak) Israeli league. The fact that he does play in the Euroleague at his age without being a huge negative is impressive.

The free throw shooting is weird, though.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1487 » by Little Nathan » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:24 pm

CoreyVillains wrote:Not a guy on our radar unless AK trades back, but he’s a fun player to watch with a sweet stroke.


While I agree that top 7 is too high, I'm still wondering why he's a late first in most mocks I'm seeing. Yeah he's short and not strong, but a player with his shooting gravity and a high IQ on top? Seems like a lottery guy in this class to me.

If I'm drafting him I force him to watch Steph Curry off-ball movement clips all day btw.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1488 » by JohnnyTapwater » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:38 pm

I personally think Deni will be a star.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1489 » by MikeDC » Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:06 pm

Little Nathan wrote:Avdija doesn't do poorly in the Euroleague, he just isn't asked to do as much as in the (very weak) Israeli league. The fact that he does play in the Euroleague at his age without being a huge negative is impressive.

The free throw shooting is weird, though.


I agree that playing in the Euro-league is impressive, but "he just isn't asked to do as much" is an excuse. Guys are all trying as hard as they can, and if the guy fouls a lot and is shooting poorly, it's not being he is being asked to.

If anything, efficiency generally goes up when usage goes down. That Avdjia has a smaller role actually makes his relative inefficiency more questionable.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1490 » by Jcool0 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:09 pm

MikeDC wrote:
Jcool0 wrote:
MikeDC wrote:Avdija is my least favorite prospect for several reasons:
  • The fact he tears it up in the Israeli league but then does poorly in the EuroLeague is troubling. That's the trend for two seasons, and it suggests that his game's not going to hold up well as competition levels get higher.
  • Players being unable to make free throws is usually a predictor of problems. He's got two seasons + of being a downright bad free throw shooter. That's a troubling sign.
  • His defense and rebounding don't seem particularly great

I put all this together and try to imagine him as an NBA Player and I see a forward a tweener athletically in the classical bad sense of the word (too slow for 3, too small and weak for 4).

But worse, he doesn't project to be a guy who does any of the basic NBA offensive roles very well. He doesn't project as a shooter, and he doesn't project as a guy who can drive. Good NBA players are at least a partial threat to do both, and a definite threat to do one of these things.

Thus, while in the abstract his above average handle looks good, in practice, you very quickly see that he's not a guy you want to run the PnR with, because he's no threat to drive and he's no threat to shoot. So you don't really want the ball in his hands.

But he's not a good shooter, so he's not really a guy you want to have off the ball spotting up either.

Thus, I don't really understand the "theory" of him as a meaningful contributor.


You can see why he would be a top draft pick


Not actually, because these sort of blurbs don't really address the points I'm raising at all.

For example, pointing out individually good performances in the Israeli league doesn't address why he performed so poorly in EuroLeague play, or why, in total, he's been a terrible free throw shooter across three seasons.

I mean, anyone can look pretty good when you pick out the highlights and good games. But that doesn't answer the questions raised by the sum total of his performances.


Clearly you are ignoring things because it doesn't fit your narrative.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1491 » by MrFortune3 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:37 pm

Deni is the type of player you take if you believe in your development staff.
He has the talent and potential to be great. Can your staff refine his traits and push him to reach his ceiling?

I want to see the Bulls draft him and see what he can do.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1492 » by Little Nathan » Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:39 pm

MikeDC wrote:I agree that playing in the Euro-league is impressive, but "he just isn't asked to do as much" is an excuse.


It's really not, though. Avdija played a completely different role (and a lot less minutes) in the Euroleague because his team is very good and has many good veteran players. He was out there to defend, take open shots or make the extra pass, which he did well. In the Israeli league, where the level of competition is much lower, he had more freedom with the ball in his hands. The situations are just different.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1493 » by MikeDC » Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:46 am

Jcool0 wrote:
MikeDC wrote:
Jcool0 wrote:
You can see why he would be a top draft pick


Not actually, because these sort of blurbs don't really address the points I'm raising at all.

For example, pointing out individually good performances in the Israeli league doesn't address why he performed so poorly in EuroLeague play, or why, in total, he's been a terrible free throw shooter across three seasons.

I mean, anyone can look pretty good when you pick out the highlights and good games. But that doesn't answer the questions raised by the sum total of his performances.


Clearly you are ignoring things because it doesn't fit your narrative.


I don’t see how. I’m actually talking about the sum total of his production. You are talking about highlights. By definition you are the guy excluding part of the “narrative” and I am not.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1494 » by MikeDC » Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:07 am

Little Nathan wrote:
MikeDC wrote:I agree that playing in the Euro-league is impressive, but "he just isn't asked to do as much" is an excuse.


It's really not, though. Avdija played a completely different role (and a lot less minutes) in the Euroleague because his team is very good and has many good veteran players. He was out there to defend, take open shots or make the extra pass, which he did well. In the Israeli league, where the level of competition is much lower, he had more freedom with the ball in his hands. The situations are just different.


Ok, My point is that statistically he didn’t do a very good job of taking open shots. Or rather, making them. What I’m saying is, usually what happens when a guy doesn’t force things and only takes good looks is that his shooting percentages go way up. Think of American Grant or more recently, Arci. Those guys had high shooting percentages because they don’t take a lot of hard shots. Denis doesn’t really fit this story. He’s passing up the hard looks and only taking the open ones, but unlike other players who do this... his shooting efficiency is falling. That’s no bueno.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1495 » by CoreyVillains » Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:21 am

I’m buying the jumper. Maybe he never becomes a big time off the bounce shooter but his catch & shoot form looks really good and I don’t see any reason as to why it wouldn’t translate.

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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1496 » by Ralphb07 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:02 am

This draft is just so hard to dig your feet in the ground and have a favorite it seems. For me I have been switching every few weeks and have a handful of guys I am okay with. Those guys are Ball, Hayes, Hali and Avdija.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1497 » by Jvaughn » Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:55 am

Ralphb07 wrote:This draft is just so hard to dig your feet in the ground and have a favorite it seems. For me I have been switching every few weeks and have a handful of guys I am okay with. Those guys are Ball, Hayes, Hali and Avdija.


Except for Ball, that's my list. I'd be pretty content with any of the top 7 though. So I'm just hoping we don't fall outside the top 7. Those prospects all have their flaws, but I think we can utilize all of them as part of our future core.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1498 » by Little Nathan » Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:37 am

Ralphb07 wrote:This draft is just so hard to dig your feet in the ground and have a favorite it seems. For me I have been switching every few weeks and have a handful of guys I am okay with. Those guys are Ball, Hayes, Hali and Avdija.

I would love Ball or Hayes, Avdija would be fine, but I'm not a fan of Haliburton at all in our situation.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1499 » by Showtime23 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:28 pm

MikeDC wrote:Avdija is my least favorite prospect for several reasons:
  • The fact he tears it up in the Israeli league but then does poorly in the EuroLeague is troubling. That's the trend for two seasons, and it suggests that his game's not going to hold up well as competition levels get higher.
  • Players being unable to make free throws is usually a predictor of problems. He's got two seasons + of being a downright bad free throw shooter. That's a troubling sign.
  • His defense and rebounding don't seem particularly great

I put all this together and try to imagine him as an NBA Player and I see a forward a tweener athletically in the classical bad sense of the word (tooslow for 3, too small and weak for 4).

But worse, he doesn't project to be a guy who does any of the basic NBA offensive roles very well. He doesn't project as a shooter, and he doesn't project as a guy who can drive. Good NBA players are at least a partial threat to do both, and a definite threat to do one of these things.

Thus, while in the abstract his above average handle looks good, in practice, you very quickly see that he's not a guy you want to run the PnR with, because he's no threat to drive and he's no threat to shoot. So you don't really want the ball in his hands.

But he's not a good shooter, so he's not really a guy you want to have off the ball spotting up either.

Thus, I don't really understand the "theory" of him as a meaningful contributor.


If your going by dont draft bc hes not a good shooter then your literally going to pick unathletic McD every yr which is why the Bulls sucked. What the Bulls need is someone that can play multi-position and versatile enough it gives teams trouble due to height (imagine a 6-8 Ball against PGs or 6-9 Deni against SFs), ball handling, etc. The Bulls have none of them except a 30mil dollar injury plagued Porter. Denis not going to tear it up from yr 1 but other prospects literally suck so hard he is a solid tier 2 prospect.
Obis the better talent but he will be gone by 7 and the fit is so bad they will implode.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick #7 (probably) 

Post#1500 » by Showtime23 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:34 pm

MrFortune3 wrote:Deni is the type of player you take if you believe in your development staff.
He has the talent and potential to be great. Can your staff refine his traits and push him to reach his ceiling?

I want to see the Bulls draft him and see what he can do.


Thats what AK is for. If your not drafting high ceiling guys like Ball, Deni, then you just handcuffed AK and not playing to your strengths.
Might as well blow it all up for veteran stars like Lowry, DD, Drummond, Griffin and pray a 2021 agent joins.

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