Kemba Walker or Kyle Lowry

[GiannisAnte34]

if the thread is literally all Raptors posters, can it be moved to the Raptors board?

Bucks are Trash and Giannis is going to be a Raptor soon

GiannisAnte made a fool out of himself itt but this ain't it man.

at the time I posted it was over 80% Raptors posters in the topic, so please explain to me what is so foolish about my statement?

there are team forums for a reason

[docholliday99]

Kemba hasn't played with these many weapons in his career. I'm sure he was just adjusting to that this season.

100% he hasn't but he almost has too many weapons that can create surrounding him. Kemba playing beside Brown, Hayward and Tatum is not going to produce much better numbers than Lowry has so I expect Kemba to continue to elevate his offensive game. He's a solid defensive player though and honestly, if Horford had stayed, Boston would have been my clear cut favourite to come out of the East (and I've been a Raptor fan since their inception)

Well Lowry is playing with 4 other guys averaging at least 16 including Siakam who is averaging the same amount as Tatum. I don't see it as a huge difference.

I think it's clearly Lowry. Kemba has to do something in the playoff to enter the conversation. As others have said it's not fair to hold Lowry's playoff disappointments against him all those years and not ding Kemba for not even getting there.

Well, other than Siakam, Brown/Hayward/Tatum are superior creators to what the Raptors can field. What gives the Raptors the playoff edge atm is Lowry and Gasol.

As for Lowry in the playoffs, I think many under rate him outside of the championship run....

[Clay Davis]

100% he hasn't but he almost has too many weapons that can create surrounding him. Kemba playing beside Brown, Hayward and Tatum is not going to produce much better numbers than Lowry has so I expect Kemba to continue to elevate his offensive game. He's a solid defensive player though and honestly, if Horford had stayed, Boston would have been my clear cut favourite to come out of the East (and I've been a Raptor fan since their inception)

Well Lowry is playing with 4 other guys averaging at least 16 including Siakam who is averaging the same amount as Tatum. I don't see it as a huge difference.

I think it's clearly Lowry. Kemba has to do something in the playoff to enter the conversation. As others have said it's not fair to hold Lowry's playoff disappointments against him all those years and not ding Kemba for not even getting there.

Well, other than Siakam, Brown/Hayward/Tatum are superior creators to what the Raptors can field. What gives the Raptors the playoff edge atm is Lowry and Gasol.

As for Lowry in the playoffs, I think many under rate him outside of the championship run....

Powell was playing as a better shot-creator than any of those guys.

Sent from my SM-A520W using RealGM mobile app

[docholliday99]

Well Lowry is playing with 4 other guys averaging at least 16 including Siakam who is averaging the same amount as Tatum. I don't see it as a huge difference.

I think it's clearly Lowry. Kemba has to do something in the playoff to enter the conversation. As others have said it's not fair to hold Lowry's playoff disappointments against him all those years and not ding Kemba for not even getting there.

Well, other than Siakam, Brown/Hayward/Tatum are superior creators to what the Raptors can field. What gives the Raptors the playoff edge atm is Lowry and Gasol.

As for Lowry in the playoffs, I think many under rate him outside of the championship run....

Powell was playing as a better shot-creator than any of those guys.

Sent from my SM-A520W using RealGM mobile app

Powell was certainly on a scoring tear but I don't think you can bring anything to the table to support that claim.

[Sixerscan]

100% he hasn't but he almost has too many weapons that can create surrounding him. Kemba playing beside Brown, Hayward and Tatum is not going to produce much better numbers than Lowry has so I expect Kemba to continue to elevate his offensive game. He's a solid defensive player though and honestly, if Horford had stayed, Boston would have been my clear cut favourite to come out of the East (and I've been a Raptor fan since their inception)

Well Lowry is playing with 4 other guys averaging at least 16 including Siakam who is averaging the same amount as Tatum. I don't see it as a huge difference.

I think it's clearly Lowry. Kemba has to do something in the playoff to enter the conversation. As others have said it's not fair to hold Lowry's playoff disappointments against him all those years and not ding Kemba for not even getting there.

Well, other than Siakam, Brown/Hayward/Tatum are superior creators to what the Raptors can field. What gives the Raptors the playoff edge atm is Lowry and Gasol.

As for Lowry in the playoffs, I think many under rate him outside of the championship run....

I mean VanVleet is an actual point guard. Lowry has had to play off the ball a lot. And obviously he's played with Kawhi and DDR in the past, and Casey always loved those multiple ball handler offenses. Heck he was like the 4th ball handler on those Villanova teams. Kembas had to do it for like half a season Lowry has been doing it his whole career.

[Clay Davis]

Well, other than Siakam, Brown/Hayward/Tatum are superior creators to what the Raptors can field. What gives the Raptors the playoff edge atm is Lowry and Gasol.

As for Lowry in the playoffs, I think many under rate him outside of the championship run....

Powell was playing as a better shot-creator than any of those guys.

Sent from my SM-A520W using RealGM mobile app

Powell was certainly on a scoring tear but I don't think you can bring anything to the table to support that claim.

He played 44 games this season, averaging 20.5 points on 63 TS%

[docholliday99]

Well Lowry is playing with 4 other guys averaging at least 16 including Siakam who is averaging the same amount as Tatum. I don't see it as a huge difference.

I think it's clearly Lowry. Kemba has to do something in the playoff to enter the conversation. As others have said it's not fair to hold Lowry's playoff disappointments against him all those years and not ding Kemba for not even getting there.

Well, other than Siakam, Brown/Hayward/Tatum are superior creators to what the Raptors can field. What gives the Raptors the playoff edge atm is Lowry and Gasol.

As for Lowry in the playoffs, I think many under rate him outside of the championship run....

I mean VanVleet is an actual point guard. Lowry has had to play off the ball a lot. And obviously he's played with Kawhi and DDR in the past, and Casey always loved those multiple ball handler offenses. Heck he was like the 4th ball handler on those Villanova teams. Kembas had to do it for like half a season Lowry has been doing it his whole career.

That's absolutely fair to say about Kemba and Lowry.

[docholliday99]

Powell was playing as a better shot-creator than any of those guys.

Sent from my SM-A520W using RealGM mobile app

Powell was certainly on a scoring tear but I don't think you can bring anything to the table to support that claim.

He played 44 games this season, averaging 20.5 points on 63 TS%

What does that have to do with being a creator? He played ISO ok and played off of Lowry or FVV extremely well (meaning, he needed assistance to create). This is not a bad thing. Love Powell but he's not Brown, Hayward or Tatum.

[Johnny Bball]

Lowry is better offensively and the better player. He has a better TS%, takes less shots, passes better with a better assist rate, better assist to turnover ratio. If you wanted to say Kemba was the better offenisve player because..he drives better (?) or is marginally better at the moment from three but not over their careers, the difference would be at most marginal. It doesn't in any way make up for the defensive end and everything else Lowry does including recently being clutch.

[Clay Davis]

Powell was certainly on a scoring tear but I don't think you can bring anything to the table to support that claim.

He played 44 games this season, averaging 20.5 points on 63 TS%

What does that have to do with being a creator? He played ISO ok and played off of Lowry or FVV extremely well (meaning, he needed assistance to create). This is not a bad thing. Love Powell but he's not Brown, Hayward or Tatum.

Do you have iso statistics

[YogurtProducer]

Well Lowry is playing with 4 other guys averaging at least 16 including Siakam who is averaging the same amount as Tatum. I don't see it as a huge difference.

I think it's clearly Lowry. Kemba has to do something in the playoff to enter the conversation. As others have said it's not fair to hold Lowry's playoff disappointments against him all those years and not ding Kemba for not even getting there.

Well, other than Siakam, Brown/Hayward/Tatum are superior creators to what the Raptors can field. What gives the Raptors the playoff edge atm is Lowry and Gasol.

As for Lowry in the playoffs, I think many under rate him outside of the championship run....

I mean VanVleet is an actual point guard. Lowry has had to play off the ball a lot. And obviously he's played with Kawhi and DDR in the past, and Casey always loved those multiple ball handler offenses. Heck he was like the 4th ball handler on those Villanova teams. Kembas had to do it for like half a season Lowry has been doing it his whole career.

Lowry is an actual point guard as well..? He has one of the highest assist totals over the past few seasons and was leading the league for a large chunk of last year before Siakam really emerged and took some usage away

[docholliday99]

Lowry is better offensively and the better player. He has a better TS%, takes less shots, passes better with a better assist rate, better assist to turnover ratio. If you wanted to say Kemba was the better offenisve player because..he drives better (?) or is marginally better at the moment from three but not over their careers, the difference would be at most marginal. It doesn't in any way make up for the defensive end and everything else Lowry does including recently being clutch.

For some reason it feels you're marginalising Walker when comparing him to Lowry. Their shooting numbers are almost identical, Lowry has averaged .8 more apg and Walker has averaged 5.3 more ppg. Both turn over rates are similar. Their offensive impact for their respective teams is a wash imo. What does separate them is the defence and the intangibles from winning a championship (though Kemba has been on a train wreck of a roster till this year and Lowry has not). It will be interesting to see how Kemba develops on the Celtics with a better roster and a better coach over the next 4 years (I'm saying 4 as Kemba will be the same age as Lowry is now - and Lowry 4 years ago is not the same Lowry as today).

[Sixerscan]

Well, other than Siakam, Brown/Hayward/Tatum are superior creators to what the Raptors can field. What gives the Raptors the playoff edge atm is Lowry and Gasol.

As for Lowry in the playoffs, I think many under rate him outside of the championship run....

I mean VanVleet is an actual point guard. Lowry has had to play off the ball a lot. And obviously he's played with Kawhi and DDR in the past, and Casey always loved those multiple ball handler offenses. Heck he was like the 4th ball handler on those Villanova teams. Kembas had to do it for like half a season Lowry has been doing it his whole career.

Lowry is an actual point guard as well..? He has one of the highest assist totals over the past few seasons and was leading the league for a large chunk of last year before Siakam really emerged and took some usage away

I think you're misreading my point. I'm saying that giving Walker a pass because he "has too many weapons" doesn't make sense because Lowry has also played and succeeded with other talented players over the years. Not an anti-Lowry take the exact opposite.

[YogurtProducer]

I’d take Lowry, but it’s a comparison worth making. People acting like it’s a ridiculous question aren’t being objective.

When a franchise wins its first title, the best player on that team typically holds a very special spot in the hearts of that team’s fans, which can lead to said player being overrated by said fans.

Because Kawhi was a “1-and-done,” and Siakam was a recent addition, Lowry became the recipient of that “love.”

It’s funny, because Lowry was underrated for years. Now, not so much...

People give Lowry more respect than they did in 2017 when he was a 22/7 and 62TS% player and was arguably one of the best top 10-12 players in the league.

...and that’s a bit of a stretch, and kind of proves my point (because, without even looking, I’m pretty positive that you’re a Raptors’ fan).

I would say he was definitely closer to 20th than 10th.

... but it isnt a stretch. He averaged 22/7, played great/elite defence, rebounded elite for a PG, and was incredibly efficient

He put 22.4ppg including 7.8 3pa/gm on 41.2% including a ton of pull ups and deep shots. Add 7.3apg as well.

He was 3rd All-NBA the year prior and was Even better in 2017 but missed too many games to really be considered. Arguably, he had a case for one of the best 5 guards in the entire league behind Curry, Westbrook, Harden, and maybe Thomas that year (although even then KLow was more impactful IMO)

[docholliday99]

He played 44 games this season, averaging 20.5 points on 63 TS%

What does that have to do with being a creator? He played ISO ok and played off of Lowry or FVV extremely well (meaning, he needed assistance to create). This is not a bad thing. Love Powell but he's not Brown, Hayward or Tatum.

Do you have iso statistics

I'm not the one trying to prove a point - I know how he got his points but do you?

[TroubleS0me]

Lowry doesnt elevate his game in the playoffs more times than NOT.

Only 2 good playoff runs

Kemba has 1 good, 1 bad..

[YogurtProducer]

I mean VanVleet is an actual point guard. Lowry has had to play off the ball a lot. And obviously he's played with Kawhi and DDR in the past, and Casey always loved those multiple ball handler offenses. Heck he was like the 4th ball handler on those Villanova teams. Kembas had to do it for like half a season Lowry has been doing it his whole career.

Lowry is an actual point guard as well..? He has one of the highest assist totals over the past few seasons and was leading the league for a large chunk of last year before Siakam really emerged and took some usage away

I think you're misreading my point. I'm saying that giving Walker a pass because he "has too many weapons" doesn't make sense because Lowry has also played and succeeded with other talented players over the years. Not an anti-Lowry take the exact opposite.

Sorry yes, my bad.

It is an incredibly weird take as generally guys should be more efficient with better teammates, not worse. It’s like without question that Lowry > Kemba. Not sure I can even take people seriously if they think otherwise.

[docholliday99]

I mean VanVleet is an actual point guard. Lowry has had to play off the ball a lot. And obviously he's played with Kawhi and DDR in the past, and Casey always loved those multiple ball handler offenses. Heck he was like the 4th ball handler on those Villanova teams. Kembas had to do it for like half a season Lowry has been doing it his whole career.

Lowry is an actual point guard as well..? He has one of the highest assist totals over the past few seasons and was leading the league for a large chunk of last year before Siakam really emerged and took some usage away

I think you're misreading my point. I'm saying that giving Walker a pass because he "has too many weapons" doesn't make sense because Lowry has also played and succeeded with other talented players over the years. Not an anti-Lowry take the exact opposite.

I'm not giving Kemba a pass, Lowry is the better player of the 2 because of his defence. I am saying that Kemba will probably not have stats better than Lowry going forward because of playing with 3 other creators. Lowry playing off the ball is irrelevant as Kemba does as well - though maybe I am missing your point completely.

[Sixerscan]

Lowry is an actual point guard as well..? He has one of the highest assist totals over the past few seasons and was leading the league for a large chunk of last year before Siakam really emerged and took some usage away

I think you're misreading my point. I'm saying that giving Walker a pass because he "has too many weapons" doesn't make sense because Lowry has also played and succeeded with other talented players over the years. Not an anti-Lowry take the exact opposite.

I'm not giving Kemba a pass, Lowry is the better player of the 2 because of his defence. I am saying that Kemba will probably not have stats better than Lowry going forward because of playing with 3 other creators. Lowry playing off the ball is irrelevant - though maybe I am missing your point completely.

Lowry might have better stats if he was slumming it on the Hornets and running 75 high pick and rolls a game.

[YogurtProducer]

Lowry doesnt elevate his game in the playoffs more times than NOT.

Only 2 decent playoff runs

Lowry got hurt twice 2 years in a row, and that somehow has defined his entire playoff career? He’s been just as good, and better, in the post season more times than not since the ECF bounce against Cleveland.

BUT

even when Lowry shot like terrible he still had a great impact on the game because he plays it so **** well. His defense, leadership, playmaking, etc. Is just elite as hell and drives the raptors and it has for 8 years now. He shot bad in 2017 during the ECF season but he single handily carried that team. In hindsight, that team had NO business being that far in the playoffs. We started Luis **** Scola, Demarre Carroll, Cory Joseph, Patrick Patterson, Biyombo, and rookie Powell a combined 50 games in the post season that year. That team was legitimately awful outside Lowry (and Demar, although he was also legitimately awful that entire post season).

Lowry has a bad rap from the Washington sweep, and a ballooned elbow in 2017. He’s been fantastic other than those instances