ImageImageImageImageImage

Pistons after Fred VV

Moderators: 7 Footer, Duffman100, HiJiNX, niQ, Morris_Shatford, DG88, Reeko, lebron stopper

User avatar
SFour
RealGM
Posts: 38,364
And1: 58,339
Joined: Apr 07, 2012
   

Re: Pistons after Fred VV 

Post#41 » by SFour » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:53 pm

ontnut wrote:
alan_156 wrote:
Syd-TK3 wrote:TD is obviously great but he's really not a Fred replacement. I know they tried using him at point guard a bit but he's not and his strengths come as a 2
So we'd still need to find an actual future pg



No arguing TD's athletic and shooting potential. He doesn't have great handles and isn't the floor general Fred has, he just doesn't have that experience yet. TD is not ready to step in Fred's shoes

I don't get what people see in TD that makes them believe he's the future solution to our starting PG spot. He'll be a good 6th man as a SG/PG, and spot starter, but I hardly see "PG" being his main position.


I don't think anyone believes TD will strictly be the PG....he's more of a combo guard, which FVV is as well. When I say TD is a FVV replacement I'm mostly considering him replacing FVV's minutes at the 2 spot. TD cannot replace a pure PG like Lowry.

I guess the best case scenario is FVV re-signs for a reasonable amount and TD or Powell takes the 2 spot....Powell obviously would take that starting 2 spot since he's been playing almost at an allstar level, and TD could develop off the bench for another 2-3 years. TD and Powell are also likely going to get paid big money so I don't know if it's possible to keep both.
Harcore Fenton Mun
RealGM
Posts: 12,424
And1: 7,671
Joined: Jul 17, 2006

Re: Pistons after Fred VV 

Post#42 » by Harcore Fenton Mun » Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:03 pm

Just my 2c, but I think we get a great deal given the current cap situation.

This was fluff, pre covid. It's nothing now.
Image
User avatar
right between the eyes
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,368
And1: 6,503
Joined: Jul 19, 2004
   

Re: Pistons after Fred VV 

Post#43 » by right between the eyes » Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:03 pm

With Lowry retiring soon I can't see Masai letting a team sign Fred. Masai will undoubtedly offer him a nice contract...makes no sense for Fred to go to trash ass teams like Detroit and NY for a little more money
User avatar
JShuttlesworth
General Manager
Posts: 9,786
And1: 12,813
Joined: Dec 09, 2013
Location: Toronto
 

Re: Pistons after Fred VV 

Post#44 » by JShuttlesworth » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:14 pm

If the Pistons max Freddy, that would be a massive mistake on their end, it's not a good move for Detroit. Fred would have Griffin playing next to him for the first two years, it means they wouldn't be able to get any significant help until Griffin is gone. Aside from Blake, their roster looks incredibly thin with only Snell / Kennard / Rose / Doumbouya / 1st RD Pick. Do they really want to max pay Fred / Griffin max money only to miss the playoffs for two straight years?

Is he really going to find a better situation than Toronto right now? I'm pretty confident Masai is going to pay up for him. Building a team with Siakam / OG / Powell / Davis doesn't seem like the worst core to sign on with. Especially given our cap space and Masai's success so far, it seems like a safe choice to stay. Lowry is getting old FVV is going to get the keys.

All the power to him if he chooses to leave though.
User avatar
OGLife
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,332
And1: 12,892
Joined: Jan 29, 2015
   

Re: Pistons after Fred VV 

Post#45 » by OGLife » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:29 pm

SFour wrote:
ontnut wrote:
alan_156 wrote:

No arguing TD's athletic and shooting potential. He doesn't have great handles and isn't the floor general Fred has, he just doesn't have that experience yet. TD is not ready to step in Fred's shoes

I don't get what people see in TD that makes them believe he's the future solution to our starting PG spot. He'll be a good 6th man as a SG/PG, and spot starter, but I hardly see "PG" being his main position.


I don't think anyone believes TD will strictly be the PG....he's more of a combo guard, which FVV is as well. When I say TD is a FVV replacement I'm mostly considering him replacing FVV's minutes at the 2 spot. TD cannot replace a pure PG like Lowry.

I guess the best case scenario is FVV re-signs for a reasonable amount and TD or Powell takes the 2 spot....Powell obviously would take that starting 2 spot since he's been playing almost at an allstar level, and TD could develop off the bench for another 2-3 years. TD and Powell are also likely going to get paid big money so I don't know if it's possible to keep both.

Don't forget OG in the scenario if we land Giannis. FVV, Gaol and Ibaka must be retained.

Lowry is the oddman out who you only want to retain for Vet Min once his contact is up, surprisingly.
ATLTimekeeper
RealGM
Posts: 39,828
And1: 21,915
Joined: Apr 28, 2008

Re: Pistons after Fred VV 

Post#46 » by ATLTimekeeper » Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:51 pm

I think Weaver was always turning down GM jobs because he wanted a guarantee to tank. I doubt they throw a bag at FVV considering they just let Drummond go for peanuts and have to wait out the half-seasons of Blake Griffin's deal until he retires.
User avatar
Salted Meat
Starter
Posts: 2,489
And1: 1,572
Joined: Jun 27, 2007

Re: Pistons after Fred VV 

Post#47 » by Salted Meat » Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:50 pm

If teams are gonna throw max money at him then you have to let him walk, but we really should be looking at him as a replacement for Lowry. I think we should do what we can to keep him.
alan_156
Senior
Posts: 692
And1: 755
Joined: Jul 07, 2006

Re: Pistons after Fred VV 

Post#48 » by alan_156 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:58 pm

Masai/Webster will have a tough time deciding how much longer to resign Lowry to one year big money type of deals when he starts to decline due to age and wear and tear. It's gonna be tough to find the right time to transition our pg position post Lowry without handcuffing us salary cap wise.
User avatar
Lateral Quicks
RealGM
Posts: 20,290
And1: 16,359
Joined: Dec 05, 2002
   

Re: Pistons after Fred VV 

Post#49 » by Lateral Quicks » Wed Jul 1, 2020 12:03 am

On the one hand FVV seems very much like the guy to take the most money (that whole Bet on Yourself schtick), but on the other hand I would hope he rewards the organization for taking such a chance on him and giving him so much opportunity. He would not have had the opportunity in most other situations.

If the Pistons offer him the max and he takes it, it would be a mistake to match. I'm not sure he'd want to play for Casey, though.
Nick Nurse recounting his first meeting with Kawhi:
“We could have gone forever. (Raptors management) kept knocking on the door and I was like, ‘A couple more minutes.’ Because we were really into it."
User avatar
dacrusha
RealGM
Posts: 12,694
And1: 5,410
Joined: Dec 11, 2003
Location: Waiting for Jesse Ventura to show up...
       

Re: Pistons after Fred VV 

Post#50 » by dacrusha » Wed Jul 1, 2020 2:16 am

FVV is our PG of the future and is going to stay with the Raptors.

They’ll sign him to a fair offer or match whatever comes from the Pistons camp.
"If you can’t make a profit, you should sell your team" - Michael Jordan
User avatar
OGLife
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,332
And1: 12,892
Joined: Jan 29, 2015
   

Re: Pistons after Fred VV 

Post#51 » by OGLife » Wed Jul 1, 2020 2:23 am

Would you rather have FVV or Ingram at max?
Ackshun
General Manager
Posts: 8,649
And1: 4,574
Joined: Jul 24, 2006

Re: Pistons after Fred VV 

Post#52 » by Ackshun » Wed Jul 1, 2020 3:18 am

OGLife wrote:Would you rather have FVV or Ingram at max?


Ingram 10/10 times.
old skool
General Manager
Posts: 7,747
And1: 3,479
Joined: Jul 07, 2005
Location: Chi

Re: Pistons after Fred VV 

Post#53 » by old skool » Wed Jul 1, 2020 5:14 am

Detroit has $32.9-million coming off the books due to expiring contracts for Reggie Jackson and Brandon Knight. They will spend something significant for a point guard. Whether or not they have big money for FVV probably depends on other free agent options that might be available.

I think pre-Covid, the max FVV could have received would have been about $126-million over 4 years, with a starting salary of about $28.75-million. I don't think anyone was expecting Fred to demand that much, but I think he could easily get the 4 yrs/$85-million that Brogdon got from Indiana last summer, Covid induced disruptions to the cap and team salary budgets notwithstanding.

However, isn't the Raptors biggest free agent issue that they will have $90-million in cap holds for Gasol, Ibaka and VanVleet? The Raps will have to fill those positions, either by resigning all three or some combination of resignings and free agent additions. Free agency can be a game of musical chairs, with decisions needed to be made quickly, if not made before the music officially begins. The Raptors would be greatly helped if VanVleet gets best offers from other teams in advance of the official free agent period and informs Masai of his potential moves so Masai can put a contingent plan together if needed.

I welcome any corrections to my (pre-Covid) assumptions on max contracts and cap holds. I'm just trying to get a handle on actual dollar amounts instead of talking "max" and "non-max".
Chandan
RealGM
Posts: 17,116
And1: 20,996
Joined: Nov 23, 2017
 

Re: Pistons after Fred VV 

Post#54 » by Chandan » Wed Jul 1, 2020 7:59 am

PT416 wrote:
Alfred wrote:Fred is an excellent secondary player. He's a good shooter, a great defender at the PG spot and can run a team. Is he worth a maximum contract? Only if you already have a legit max contract guy and you need to consolidate talent, and even then it's a reach. Spending the max on him when you have no other top tier players to pair him with would be an absolute disaster, he's not a guy that can turn around an entire franchise, so it would be a terrible decision for the Pistons. The Pistons front office is a mess so it's definitely possible.

I think Fred is absolutely maximizing his talent level through sheer hard work, determination and smarts, but his physical limitations definitely hamper him. He's a small guard that has problems finishing around the basket. I want FVV on the Raptors for the rest of his career, but if someone else throws the Max at him, that is 100% becoming a bad contract and you might just have to let him walk.

Very well said but I do disagree. I think that he has what it takes to become the next Lowry for whatever team. He's young, driven and has a ton of winning attributes. All he has to do is continue to steadily improve and add to his game at this point and he has a great chance to be another Lowry which is a huge compliment, considering Lowry has been a top 5-10 PG for most of his latter years.


I think his roof is close to last seasons lowry, but not quite there.
Fred will never be one of those kemba or 2017 lowry type pg because he doesnt have the moves to get seperation on the bounce (if he does he better start showing it) , he will always have to take whatever the defense give him. That level of play could get u to the finals as a cog evidently last year but i am not sure its the level of impact/production deserving of a max contract as it takes away a huge chunk of talent from other spots. (Last years circumstances was unique in that a max level mvp type player fell into our lap. Thats why lowry worked.
Under normal circumstances we wouldnt even be contenders but have maxed out our cap pool)

This is all moot if he starts shooting 48% from threes.
Image
User avatar
Westside Gunn
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,077
And1: 6,043
Joined: Jul 03, 2016
       

Re: Pistons after Fred VV 

Post#55 » by Westside Gunn » Wed Jul 1, 2020 8:00 am

are teams even willing to dish out bags during covid?

he will go for the most money. we expect players to stay loyal but for the most part its a business.

whoever gives him the bag will most likely regret it but having said that i think the raptors need to secure the position as Lowry starts to decline.
i miss the days when the bricks was only nineteeeeeeeen, i need a 100 right now
Chandan
RealGM
Posts: 17,116
And1: 20,996
Joined: Nov 23, 2017
 

Re: Pistons after Fred VV 

Post#56 » by Chandan » Wed Jul 1, 2020 8:06 am

Westside Gunn wrote:are teams even willing to dish out bags during covid?

he will go for the most money. we expect players to stay loyal but for the most part its a business.

whoever gives him the bag will most likely regret it but having said that i think the raptors need to secure the position as Lowry starts to decline.


This is why large market teams are such ****. They dont ever need to plan ahead on these stuff. When the time comes they just pick from the pool.
If lowry goes down next year, and FVV leaves we would have to rely on terrence davis being full time PG, if hes not up to task we are ****.
Image
team edward
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,745
And1: 2,981
Joined: Jul 28, 2010

Re: Pistons after Fred VV 

Post#57 » by team edward » Wed Jul 1, 2020 12:18 pm

OGLife wrote:Would you rather have FVV or Ingram at max?

**** it, let’s get both
User avatar
LBJKB24MJ23
RealGM
Posts: 22,556
And1: 21,145
Joined: Jan 22, 2014
Location: Bermuda
     

Re: Pistons after Fred VV 

Post#58 » by LBJKB24MJ23 » Wed Jul 1, 2020 12:52 pm

casual_raps_fan wrote:I don't understand what the Pistons think they will accomplish by signing Fred. Let's just say he signs for a 4 year 80 million contract (which he wouldn't because he would obviously rather just resigning with the Raptors for that contract) and they resign Christian Wood for something like 4 years 50 million. If things work out well, they'll squeeze into the playoffs into the 8th seed... and then what?

I don't get it.


well you can say that with every team that is not in the playoffs at the moment. Pistons need to surround Griffin with talent. I think they are a much better team with better guard play. FVV could make them better than the 8th seed. Casey will vouch for FVV as well. FVV will also want to be the lead guy. If Lowry is still around, that could be a hit on FVV's ego etc etc. who knows.

Money talks.
raf1995 wrote:I just don’t think he has that kind of potential. I think we will regret not trading him for a haul in a few years when he’s a mid-tier starter with nice playmaking and defense and a shaky jumper.
User avatar
LBJKB24MJ23
RealGM
Posts: 22,556
And1: 21,145
Joined: Jan 22, 2014
Location: Bermuda
     

Re: Pistons after Fred VV 

Post#59 » by LBJKB24MJ23 » Wed Jul 1, 2020 12:56 pm

OGLife wrote:Would you rather have FVV or Ingram at max?


Ingram, duh.
raf1995 wrote:I just don’t think he has that kind of potential. I think we will regret not trading him for a haul in a few years when he’s a mid-tier starter with nice playmaking and defense and a shaky jumper.
User avatar
BBallG
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,947
And1: 4,749
Joined: May 06, 2016
 

Re: Pistons after Fred VV 

Post#60 » by BBallG » Wed Jul 1, 2020 3:11 pm

FVV is not, and most likely will never be a star player, so I'm not buying this max talk from any team. Yes, I know there are stupid teams out there, but not that stupid (right??).

He is in an ideal situation with us and MU will pay him, deservedly so, unless it's something ridiculous.
Image

Return to Toronto Raptors