Political Roundtable Part XXVIII

[Pointgod]

I think Nate and to a lesser extent Popper believe that they agree with what Fox News tells them to believe. It's not that they don't believe anything - shoot, *I* don't believe anything and I am a much less dangerous person than them. The really dangerous people are those who believe whatever their authority figure tells them to believe, because if you have enough of such people you can manipulate them into, say, voting against their own interests, or to destroy Democracy.

Not disagreeing with you, just clarifying - the worst thing you can do in life is believe something out of faith. We have a few good examples in this thread of people who believe in something so hard - that what Fox News tells them is true - that it is impossible to persuade them with actual facts.

It's one thing to *have* faith - that Jesus' or Moses' or Mohammed's light is always there for you to turn to when you need it - and another to *believe out of faith* - to believe a completely made up imaginary truth that has been crafted for you by another human being, claiming to speak for Jesus/Moses/Mohammed. Those are two very, very different things. The former is good for society and building communities and inner growth. The latter is a tool of billionaires and dictators to enslave their followers.

So the problem isn't Trump. Trump was around for a long time before this and didn't cause any damage. The problem is people like Nate and Popper, who can be persuaded to vote for Trump for president, *just because Fox News told them to.*

We've had that problem in this country for a long time - a large portion of the population - not dumb people, because although Nate doesn't approach me in terms of godlike intelligence, he's definitely not dumb - want to be told what to believe. And they don't want to be told that the universe is a big fricking dice game that has no purpose and once you're dead, that's it. People with morals will tell you the truth, which isn't what you want to hear. What people *want* to hear is *lies.* And, based on Fox News' financial success, they're willing to pay for it. To say what people *want* to hear, even though you can prove to them mathematically that it's untrue.

But before to reach these people in order to manipulate them, you had to get them to come to your church, which is costly - only the truly dedicated drag themselves out of bed on a Sunday morning to be lied to by someone who claims to be speaking for Jesus. Now we have cable news going straight into your bedroom, basically for free. And there's no invisible hand of the market place punishing Fox News for telling lies. In fact the lies of Fox News are *encouraged* by the billionaire plutocrats who have the most influence on how such things are regulated. And it's not evil sumbiches like the Koch brothers, it's Bill Gates and Mark Cuban too. If it makes a lot of money, it's fine. During the golden age of journalism, telling lies was a niche market for grocery store counter rags like the Enquirer. Now telling lies is mainstream business.

I don’t think Nate or Popper are dumb either. But I disagree with you that they have any concrete beliefs beyond Liberals/Democrats bad. They don’t hold any Conservative values considering Trump blowing up the deficit, **** on the intelligence community, the military, wiping his ass with the constitution, China tariffs and that’s the scratching the surface. I mean if we could go back in time and look at the threads before Trump was elected we’d definitely see a 180 on their positions. That's literally not a belief in anything other than taking the stance that if Trump does it, they don’t care.

I remember Nate would post with genuine sincerity about the Uranium One scandal, Susan Rice unmasking, the deep state and Andrew Mcabe etc. All of these have been debunked lies and misinformation. If you tell me people are going to jail and a single charge isn’t laid then at some point they should question whether they’re being lied to by the right the right wing media. Similarly Popper couldn’t answer a simple question about whether or no obstruction of justice is a crime.

Let’s stop making excuses for them that they’re manipulated. They’re big boys and have access to all types of information on the internet. They like being lied to, they like living outside of reality.

[doclinkin]

I think Trump stirs fanaticism in two directions. On the one hand his actions are so egregious that they enflame a frothing rage in those who disagree with them. Then those who had reasons for supporting him, even if those reasons are less and less supportable, find it difficult to admit fault in electing him since the opposition appears as frothing fanatics. And being backed into a corner by the presidents illogic and frankly treasonous actions (my opinion) his former supporters work doubletime on their confirmation bias to shore up and excuse their support of him. Actions by this president are overlooked that would be cause for indictment by any president on the opposite side of the aisle, in large part because of a sense that the ends justify the means. This has been true whether it was Nixon, Reagan, GW Bush, whomever.

The niche issues: abortion, conservative court appointments, reducing taxes for corporations and top end wealth, are equally important as a sense of fear at a loss of power and a National identity of what it means to be American. When they look across the aisle and see traditional (and in some cases outdated or dangerous) values being discarded, they feel like the America they knew from
cowboy movies to WW2 to the Space Race to Rambo whatever, all of that is going in the toilet.

The opposition says: it is and that's where it should be. Because the America they thought they knew was only a bright and shiny place for that pale majority. That for every cowboy you had an expansionist genocide colonizing the Wild west. For every 1950s-60's era Space Race and growth of the middle class, you had non-white people prevented from voting and participating in their governance until 1965,

And as that majority share dwindles, there is fear that the concept of America will change. We are swiftly going browner as a country. Only Mormons have a growth population of white folks, much less a 1:1 replacement level of brith:death. And with intermarriage that gets even more muddied, so to speak. There is a deeply held belief, even in the lives of the Founding Fathers, that the world ought to be run by the best and the brightest, filtered through that 'Guns Germs and Steel' lens that says, well by the evidence of Manifest Destiny: God Loves US Best or else he wouldn't have made us win. The seductive belief is that those with European ancestry are naturally the best and the brightest. It is either genetic or ordained by God. Because God loved them enough to make them successful in the world, and now dangerous elements are trying t undermine that and make them feel bad about that. About feeling smarter and better etc. There is a belief that there will always be Winners, and that is just and right, and that while other ethnicities may have physical advantages or traits etc, still the nascent cleverness inherent in European genetics means that pale complected people will generally always rise to the top of society. And ought to. Because frankly look around the world: everyone else is either savages or Chinese.

This mindset is supported by a class of dangerously powerful people and systems that actively work to support the Status Quo that allowed them to become dangerously powerful. Anything that threatens to upset that must be actively undermined, outlawed, sued, discredited, starved out of existence, or in some cases assassinated or imprisoned. Fear is their greatest tool. Divide and conquer. Fear your neighbor. Buy this product and you might be better. Watch this show. Watch these sports. Bread and CIrcus. But fear change most of all. Because right now you are alive, but if things change you might be dead. Also don't bother voting, don't get educated, that's for other people, it doesn't matter, nothing changes anyway, the rich get richer thats' the way it is, don'[t you want to be rich? then why outlaw rich people?

In the case of a guy like nate, who I respect in many ways, he does deep research to support his biases. He made some assumption at some point that being bright and pale I probably didn't know any brown people and likely associated with other bright and pale people. He was wrong. By family, by friends, by my kids, etc. And living in the DC area, by my daily life. Before Covid, I regularly woud take an uber and get into conversation with mathematiians from Ethiopia, or chemical engineering students from Nigeria. Bright, savvy, hard working people with the fire and gumption to risk a new life thousands of miles overseas in a land where their rich culture and language actually proved a hindrance and barrier to success Nate's assumption spoke to me loudly though about his own upbringing. I think that mindset is born of ignorance. If you have never had conversation with a beautiful ethipian woman who was driving an Uber to afford books for her courses at UMD, if you have never played soccer with a few dozen Salvadoran immigrants who work 15 hour days in construction to support their family whose farm thousands of miles away was bought from under them by a mega agrobusiness corporation. Well then you may be suspcious of people who are trying to come here to steal your America. Instead of recognizing even the Sioux tribes were immigrants who triggered massed extinctions when they crossed that ice bridge to this continent. And the values you hold --other than: White is the only Good -- have more in common with these brown skinned or foreign speaking people who you think you don't understand. Hard work is good. Family is important. Food is important. Music and dance and love and babies and planning for the future and having dreams and trying to make them work. All of that should be what we are supporting in America.

The opposition, who says, no one should starve, or be exploited, or suffer without health care, they're hard to hear because that opposition is filled with losers and minorities, brown skinned or gay or foreign or angry people who don't look like your neighbors and resent your success and your freedoms because they envy them and want to take them away. Change is bad. If you are in the successful majority. But it is pretty good if you have been cast as the villain by accident of birth or circumstance. Or if you are a thoughtful empathic person who prioritizes human lives over individual success.

anyway. you all know this. Nate is not a villain. he's just scared. Maybe rightly so.

[Zonkerbl]

I'm not a frothing fanatic. I will kick your a$$ if you don't agree with me but all my arguments are based on facts and logic. What gets me angry is when people refuse to be swayed by reason.

There's nothing sacred about holding the middle ground. A lot of the middle ground people are tacitly supporting institutionalized racism, like I've been saying this entire time.

I'm not a raving anti-religion atheist. I'm not a PETA lunatic. I'm not a vegan. I'm not an anti GMO idiot either. But I am waaaaaay to the left of the majority of America on a lot of issues. That doesn't make me a frothing lunatic. That makes America a very scary place.

#defundthepolice

[doclinkin]

I'm not a frothing fanatic. I will kick your a$$ if you don't agree with me but all my arguments are based on facts and logic. What gets me angry is when people refuse to be swayed by reason.

Yeah you froth on these pages, more and more all the time. I can only imagine the spittle at the corners of your mouth in person. These times will drive anyone crazy. For discourse to get even more divisive and polarized since the GW Bush hanging chad era, is hard to fathom. I frankly feel like a raving lunatic, myself. Righteous and in full fury, ranting in random public places., Which makes mass protests cathartic since I'm not the only one. But even if you find yourself finding areas of common ground or even realizing that yeah this was not the horse to back (Trump) the anger in our public debate makes it pretty hard to come out of the bunker and drop the weapons. We are at full on culture war right now. Trench warfare version. Taking casualties even from friendly fire and fragging allies even.

Hamilton the show is getting blown up by folks who say there should be representation of indigenous people in it. Therefore it should be cancelled like at a metoo level.

Minor disagreements are cause for rage inflected screeds. It's hard to listen to even when you agree with one side or the other. I quit facebook over that and Zuckerberg. And never used twitter when I saw that's where it was going. IIRC zonky, Hell, you nearly stomped off in a huff to create your own message board or blog or something where you could talk with only the people who agreed with you. Then SD20 got euthanized by mods so it was safe to come back

I dunno. We need leaders I think. I see a few coming up. And am hopeful for a massive political shift. The problem is the Trump malignancy will have metastasized in our judicial system and I don't know a way to cure that. Especially since they appointed so many who were unqualified in some part because they had zero experience and were too young for the position (in addition to being raving ideologues without proper intellect or temperament for the job). It's a problem.

[Wizardspride]

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[pancakes3]

i agree re: leadership. grassroots enthusiasm is great and all but it takes a plan; a hierarchy to organize and be efficient. that's the key criticism of BLM - they lack leadership to direct and focus this enthusiasm, and it just results in aimless people guided by generalities who pop off and do things on their own.

like, yes, it'd be great if hamilton had more indiginous representation but that's not the focus here. let's solve some real problems.

the example that keeps coming to my mind is that Brown v Board of education was the result of years of calculated litigation strategy devised by some of the finest black legal minds there ever was (Thurgood Marshall, ever heard of him?)

Brown v. Board didn't happen in a vacuum. The NAACP went after grad school admissions. then college admissions. then with a body of significant case law, took on integration of k12. there's no reason why now, with the progress that those great men and women of the 60s to now that we can't do more, better, more efficiently, and more effectively. With the proper leadership of course.

[Wizardspride]

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[montestewart]

Popper = guy who watches Fox News uncritically and that's all there is to it

Nate = Stephen Miller

Nate isn't some galactic brain genius but he is smart enough to competently synthesize information, which he does regularly when discussing the NBA. He has been shown, unequivocally, on numerous occasions that his right wing fan fiction articles are exactly that, and he remains steadfastly in support of Trump and still consumes nothing but right wing propaganda knowing full well it's complete bull****. The Trump MAGAverse is simply the reality he wants to live in, and that's what he's doing.

What troubles me is how he has commented on race in the past and how he has openly admitted he doesn't believe in multiculturalism. I get the idea that Nate is just down for another Civil War and doesn't look at liberals as allies on any level whatsoever.

I'm not comfortable with these kind of posts - especially considering they hardly post in this thread anymore.

I will second that. If they are here, talk directly to them. They are not.

I don't believe Nate or Popper hate any of us. Popper doesn't even get cranky. I don't understand the various ways the conservatives arrive at their worldview. I have some conservative friends who think all liberals are morons, and then in the next breath are as nice to me as they always are. There seems to be an ability to separate the monolith of political views from routine personal interactions, which on the one hand is troubling, but on the other hand shows how views etched in stone still sometimes must contend with contradictory realities.

I agree with zonker that, regardless of what I think of their positions, when they are here, their presence serves as a reality check. Compared to some conservative posters here, they managed to to post for a long time without losing their cool, or trolling. Polls right now show Trump above 40% in approval. I know that's low, but I remember the Wizards being up on LeBJ Heat by like 30 and my father-in-law just kept yelling "it's still not enough."

I would not try to tell anyone what to think, but don't let this descend into a kick Nate and Popper thread. Beyond my own personal opposition to such a direction, it violates TOS in a major way, and as loose (yeah hands, I said loose) as we are around here, that is the kind of thing that might make RealGM decide we can't run our own shop.

Politics is so much bigger than sports, but I start with the premise that people here are Wizards fans, or at least basketball fans. That may not be enough for everyone to like each other, but frustration regarding violently opposing views is probably better channeled toward political action, or some action, rather than calling out people who aren't even around.

[montestewart]

i agree re: leadership. grassroots enthusiasm is great and all but it takes a plan; a hierarchy to organize and be efficient. that's the key criticism of BLM - they lack leadership to direct and focus this enthusiasm, and it just results in aimless people guided by generalities who pop off and do things on their own.

like, yes, it'd be great if hamilton had more indiginous representation but that's not the focus here. let's solve some real problems.

the example that keeps coming to my mind is that Brown v Board of education was the result of years of calculated litigation strategy devised by some of the finest black legal minds there ever was (Thurgood Marshall, ever heard of him?)

Brown v. Board didn't happen in a vacuum. The NAACP went after grad school admissions. then college admissions. then with a body of significant case law, took on integration of k12. there's no reason why now, with the progress that those great men and women of the 60s to now that we can't do more, better, more efficiently, and more effectively. With the proper leadership of course.

I remember when I first read about the role Howard University Law School played in that strategy, and if you go to the school and look at the photos of some of the graduating classes from the 40s and 50s, you might recognize some faces, or at least some of the names. It was like the entire school got its legal education serving as clerks on these cases, drafting briefs, doing legal research, accompanying teams to court, training an entire generation of civil rights lawyers and scholars on the front lines of desegregation.

[DCZards]

Popper = guy who watches Fox News uncritically and that's all there is to it

Nate = Stephen Miller

Nate isn't some galactic brain genius but he is smart enough to competently synthesize information, which he does regularly when discussing the NBA. He has been shown, unequivocally, on numerous occasions that his right wing fan fiction articles are exactly that, and he remains steadfastly in support of Trump and still consumes nothing but right wing propaganda knowing full well it's complete bull****. The Trump MAGAverse is simply the reality he wants to live in, and that's what he's doing.

What troubles me is how he has commented on race in the past and how he has openly admitted he doesn't believe in multiculturalism. I get the idea that Nate is just down for another Civil War and doesn't look at liberals as allies on any level whatsoever.

I'm not comfortable with these kind of posts - especially considering they hardly post in this thread anymore.

I agree. Seen a few cheap shots taken, mostly at Nate, that were totally unnecessary.

[Ruzious]

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The ONLY reason people like Cotton don't want DC to be a state is because Republicans would lose power and leverage. The rest is complete bullspit.

[Zonkerbl]

I'm not a frothing fanatic. I will kick your a$$ if you don't agree with me but all my arguments are based on facts and logic. What gets me angry is when people refuse to be swayed by reason.

Yeah you froth on these pages, more and more all the time. I can only imagine the spittle at the corners of your mouth in person. These times will drive anyone crazy. For discourse to get even more divisive and polarized since the GW Bush hanging chad era, is hard to fathom. I frankly feel like a raving lunatic, myself. Righteous and in full fury, ranting in random public places., Which makes mass protests cathartic since I'm not the only one. But even if you find yourself finding areas of common ground or even realizing that yeah this was not the horse to back (Trump) the anger in our public debate makes it pretty hard to come out of the bunker and drop the weapons. We are at full on culture war right now. Trench warfare version. Taking casualties even from friendly fire and fragging allies even.

Hamilton the show is getting blown up by folks who say there should be representation of indigenous people in it. Therefore it should be cancelled like at a metoo level.

Minor disagreements are cause for rage inflected screeds. It'd hard to listen to even when you agree with one side or the other. I quit facebook over that and Zuckerberg. And never used twitter when I saw that's where it was going. IIRC zonky, Hell, you nearly stomped off in a huff to create your own message board or blog or something where you could talk with only the people who agreed with you. Then SD20 got euthanized by mods so it was safe to come back

I dunno. We need leaders I think. I see a few coming up. And am hopeful for a massive political shift. The problem is the Trump malignancy will have metastasized in our judicial system and I don't know a way to cure that. Especially since they appointed so many who were unqualified in some part because they had zero experience and were too young for the position (in addition to being raving ideologues without proper intellect or temperament for the job). It's a problem.

I got pretty far on that project until I realized that GoDaddy was using WordPress as the template, which is actually physically incapable of implementing a bulletin board, which is what I had very clearly stated was what I wanted, so I got a refund.

I like this thread because there are smart people here but you're kidding yourself if you think this is the only place I go to for political discussion. I have a private invitation only group on facebook (called Trump Roast), I was a Top Writer tm for Quora in 2017, I have twitter. If godaddy wasn't such a scam I'd have my own personal bulletin board for my friends from my home town.

Don't you dare both sides this. There is a right and a wrong side to be on right now, and supporting Trump is capital W Wrong. Selling out our country to Russia is Wrong. Kidnapping kids and auctioning them off to the highest bidder is Wrong. Stealing $1 trillion from the middle class and handing it over to billionaires is Wrong. Throwing poor people off of Obamacare is Wrong. Calling antifa a terrorist organization is Wrong. Wait 'til the GOP start torturing and executing people whose opinion they don't like for being members of Antifa, or setting up death caps for immigrants (remember when I asked Nate if he would ever consider exterminating all immigrants and he wouldn't answer, accusing me of asking a trick question?). Don't say I didn't warn you. That's where this is going. Goddam right I'm frothing at the mouth. It's crazy that people think this is ok. We should all be frothing at the mouth.

[Zonkerbl]

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The ONLY reason people like Cotton don't want DC to be a state is because Republicans would lose power and leverage. The rest is complete bullspit.

It's dangerous to point to polls from 2019 and say people across the country don't want statehood for DC. That was 2019, public opinion has changed drastically since then.

[gtn130]

Popper = guy who watches Fox News uncritically and that's all there is to it

Nate = Stephen Miller

Nate isn't some galactic brain genius but he is smart enough to competently synthesize information, which he does regularly when discussing the NBA. He has been shown, unequivocally, on numerous occasions that his right wing fan fiction articles are exactly that, and he remains steadfastly in support of Trump and still consumes nothing but right wing propaganda knowing full well it's complete bull****. The Trump MAGAverse is simply the reality he wants to live in, and that's what he's doing.

What troubles me is how he has commented on race in the past and how he has openly admitted he doesn't believe in multiculturalism. I get the idea that Nate is just down for another Civil War and doesn't look at liberals as allies on any level whatsoever.

I'm not comfortable with these kind of posts - especially considering they hardly post in this thread anymore.

I agree. Seen a few cheap shots taken, mostly at Nate, that were totally unnecessary.

Again, I'm literally just summarizing stuff he said in this thread. Not sure how that's a cheap shot. Truly incredible how much deference you guys have for someone who advocates for racial segregation.

Haven't multiple posters left this message board because they found Nate's posting to be unacceptably racist? Think about who y'all are defending right now.

[Zonkerbl]

Right now the GOP is like COVID. If you don't do anything at all about it, a million people die. If a third of people take it seriously and do what they can to stop it, only 200k people die. If everybody does everything they can to stop it, hardly anybody dies.

With the GOP, if they were able to stamp out all opposition, we'd be living in a full on 1984 style totalitarian state where criticism of the leadership is punishable by death. Half a$$ing it like we are now we just have Trump selling us out to the Russians, kidnapping kids and auctioning them off to the highest bidder, and spreading propaganda that being anti-fascist should be punishable by death.

If we all took this as seriously as it needs to be, Hillary Clinton would be President and people like me frothing at the mouth about police brutality would be relegated to the sidelines again. But you lazy f@#$s let all this happen so you have to let me out of the cage now, to save you sleepwalking stiffs from yourselves.

Same thing happened to Churchill. Under Chamberlain people were all "this crazy anti-fascist dude over here frothing at the mouth" And then Hitler annexed the Sudetenland and all of a sudden people were like "PLEASE SAVE US YOU ARE THE BEST DUDE EVER"

And Hitler took over ALL OF EUROPE and the UK hung on by a THREAD and was saved only because they were an island and Hitler didn't have troop carriers, only u-boats, so the UK was able to occupy Hitler enough to give Russia a chance to regroup. It was PURE LUCK that we aren't all speaking German arguing about whether 10 Hitler statues per 10,000 people is too many or should we spend the money on gold plated epaulets for the SS instead.

We are THIS CLOSE to that now.

[Zonkerbl]

I've been on this board a long time and for many, many years Nate dominated this thread and he and his conservative fellow travelers had a little alt-right paradise going on. Things have swung the other way because the reality of the evil his POV represents has become clear to most people. I'm looking forward to the day when the GOP is as popular as the KKK and the two parties are the moderate and progressive wings of the former Dem party and the biggest argument we're having is whether to allow LEOs to carry firearms, and whether to increase the wealth tax from 2.5 to 3.5% or 5% a year to pay for the ubi.

[Zonkerbl]

You're just poking me to get me to say crazy stuff aren't you doc

[Ruzious]

I think the reality is - It's really hard to have a politics thread in a sports board. I used to loathe this thread - particularly when a poster named Greendale dominated it. This thread has lasted forever because we have Mods here (including nate) that have done a terrific job, imo.

[gtn130]

I think the reality is - It's really hard to have a politics thread in a sports board. I used to loathe this thread - particularly when a poster named Greendale dominated it. This thread has lasted forever because we have Mods here (including nate) that have done a terrific job, imo.

The terrific mods let SD20 turn this thread into his personal right wing fan fiction blog for about a year.

It's cool that Nate was a good mod in your mind, but is that really a reason to excuse racism? Pretty bizarre moral framework you've cooked up here.

[gtn130]

The reality is that some folks consider Nate a buddy and he's given extreme latitude because acknowledging that he's absolutely a racist makes people uncomfortable.