jc23 wrote:Jcool0 wrote:Little Nathan wrote:Is it going to be competitive, though?
Why wouldnt it be?
lol for Chicago it hasnt been all season.
I can’t with you
Moderators: HomoSapien, Ice Man, dougthonus, Tommy Udo 6 , DASMACKDOWN, GimmeDat, Payt10, RedBulls23, coldfish, fleet, AshyLarrysDiaper, kulaz3000, Michael Jackson
jc23 wrote:Jcool0 wrote:Little Nathan wrote:Is it going to be competitive, though?
Why wouldnt it be?
lol for Chicago it hasnt been all season.
dice wrote:boy, if players on teams that actually have something to play for are uncomfortable with returning, how must the crap teams feel about having to quarantine in chicago just to play garbage competition?
ThreeYearPlan wrote:Bulls fans defend HomoSapien more than Rose.
HomoSapien wrote:This seems obvious to me, but wouldn’t it be safer to play these games on a contained/closed to public outside court?
dougthonus wrote:HomoSapien wrote:This seems obvious to me, but wouldn’t it be safer to play these games on a contained/closed to public outside court?
As opposed to a closed to the public indoor court? I'm not sure if it would make a difference or not. An enclosed indoor court is a pretty huge amount of space for the number of people in the room, I think you'd get enough benefit of air circulation.
Outdoor courts also are considerably bigger injury risks unless you built a hardwood floor outside (which I suppose you could certainly do given the amount of money you're spending. Wind also impacts the game much more with NBA three point lines, the games don't matter, so maybe that doesn't matter, but I think it screws with the game enough that you wouldn't do it. I know I won't play outside anymore as a general rule and will only play inside. I'd imagine if a total mediocre C-Level lifetime fitness player feels that strongly about outdoor courts that a huge amount of NBA players concur.
ThreeYearPlan wrote:Bulls fans defend HomoSapien more than Rose.
HomoSapien wrote:From everything we know about Covid, it's infinitely clear that you're safer outside with people than inside. Obviously, the hope is that everyone inside the bubble is healthy and safe and eliminates all that risk to begin with, but let's see if that's actually the case.
As for the courts, there's no question it's better to play on indoor courts than outdoor courts, but we're in weird times as it is. If I remember correctly, the league played a few exhibition games outdoors several years back.
sco wrote:The NBA NIT turney!
Admit it. We'd watch.
MikeDC wrote:At some point pretty early in this whole disaster I started thinking out the prospects of a "bubble" and pretty quickly decided it was nearly unworkable unless people were willing to submit to draconian enforcement.
The basic problem is though every interaction carries a small risk, there are tons of interactions. Even if all the NBA players, camera crews, and other supporting staff are sequestered, there's still all of the resort and hotel staff who presumably aren't sequestered. And neither are their friends and family, kids, parents, roommates, etc.
Between that and the fact that much transmission comes through asymptomatic carriers, you would literally have to allow no entry or exit to the bubble except with a test and quarantine period. Which they obviously can't/won't strictly enforce.
transplant wrote:I have to be honest with you guys, I'd just as soon see all sports in the US hold off until we have an effective vaccine. There's a decent chance that someone's gonna die and I don't have the stomach for it.
transplant wrote:I have to be honest with you guys, I'd just as soon see all sports in the US hold off until we have an effective vaccine. There's a decent chance that someone's gonna die and I don't have the stomach for it.
dougthonus wrote:MikeDC wrote:At some point pretty early in this whole disaster I started thinking out the prospects of a "bubble" and pretty quickly decided it was nearly unworkable unless people were willing to submit to draconian enforcement.
The basic problem is though every interaction carries a small risk, there are tons of interactions. Even if all the NBA players, camera crews, and other supporting staff are sequestered, there's still all of the resort and hotel staff who presumably aren't sequestered. And neither are their friends and family, kids, parents, roommates, etc.
Between that and the fact that much transmission comes through asymptomatic carriers, you would literally have to allow no entry or exit to the bubble except with a test and quarantine period. Which they obviously can't/won't strictly enforce.
It's hard to say, and I might be being optimistic, but it feels to me that if you had all non-bubble people wearing N95 masks 100% of the time and bubble people wearing them in any situation where they have to make contact with an non-bubble person, I think you'd have a very good chance of success. Add in fever tests for anyone entering the bubble and regular testing and I think you'd maybe not provide a 100% safe environment, but I think you would provide a much safer environment than what the players would be in outside of the bubble.
I'm not sure what safety protocols they'll issue of course, but based on the last time I looked into the latest research on the spread (which granted was a couple weeks ago), wearing a N95 mask is nearly 100% effective in limiting the spread, and while you can get it from asymptomatic people, it spreads much less frequently with them than with symptomatic people.
Granted, hard to say, it is one of those things where the bubble works right up until the point where it doesn't.
dougthonus wrote:As I noted, it feels hypocritical to me to say I can't stomach an NBA athlete taking on this risk while living in a bubble and having a tremendously strong respiratory system, but I can stomach a walmart or restaurant or some other employee taking this risk when they have a fraction of the protections in place and most would have higher risk factors.
MikeDC wrote:The point where it doesn't work is that it only takes 1 person in a thousand(s?) to make the system break. One person being asymptomatic and not having a fever, and/or one person not wearing the mask properly, or not washing his hands enough. One person leaving the virus on a toilet that someone else is going to use. Etc.
Most of these systems are only as safe as the weakest link, and when you're talking about thousands of people, it becomes a statistical certainty that mistakes will be made. Thus, think the only "safe" way is to sequester everyone. Double the staff size (or whatever is necessary) and have them work a week or two on, and a week or two off, with quarantine and testing in between entering and leaving the bubble.
We know that there are limits to how diligent people are with masks, and we know that fever testing isn't completely effective, and we know testing for the virus isn't completely effective. So, if you want a "fail-safe" system, you have to account for that, and extend the bubble around everyone.
ATRAIN53 wrote:agreed. it's just not worth the risk - but there is a TON of $$$$ involved.
I just feel guilty celebrating stuff like Luka Doncic going off in a game while people are dying in the middle of a global pandemic.
I miss sports but I would rather see al this time and energy put into saving lives and this feels like it's a unecessary risk just for my entertainment.
dougthonus wrote:MikeDC wrote:The point where it doesn't work is that it only takes 1 person in a thousand(s?) to make the system break. One person being asymptomatic and not having a fever, and/or one person not wearing the mask properly, or not washing his hands enough. One person leaving the virus on a toilet that someone else is going to use. Etc.
My understanding is that the risk just isn't that high in most of those ways, and I just don't think one person would break the system necessarily. You'd need one person who was sick enough to spread the virus (likely symptomatic not asymptomatic) and not wearing a mask properly and contacting someone else who's not wearing a mask properly. I think that chain isn't that hard to keep going.
Again, I don't think our information is perfect on this, and I could be wrong, but I think these players are generally taking much, much bigger risks in their daily lives right now.Most of these systems are only as safe as the weakest link, and when you're talking about thousands of people, it becomes a statistical certainty that mistakes will be made. Thus, think the only "safe" way is to sequester everyone. Double the staff size (or whatever is necessary) and have them work a week or two on, and a week or two off, with quarantine and testing in between entering and leaving the bubble.
I agree that would be much better.We know that there are limits to how diligent people are with masks, and we know that fever testing isn't completely effective, and we know testing for the virus isn't completely effective. So, if you want a "fail-safe" system, you have to account for that, and extend the bubble around everyone.
I agree with this too.
I don't think the system is set up is fail safe, but I think it is safer than you are crediting. Granted, I agree with your overall point still that I wouldn't be surprised to see the bubble pop and this whole thing fall apart. I just also wouldn't be surprised if it works as planed and that any cases are caught and minimized.
It really depends a lot on how diligent everyone is willing to be. I think that will really come down primarily to diligence on the player/coach end. Everyone else will be pretty easy to enforce IMO.
MikeDC wrote:I just edited a bit to the end of the post you're responding to, but, think of it this way.
1. Why not make it fail-safe? Everyone acknowledges that taking the extra step would increase safety, and it is a well understood procedure. Just an expensive one. But the cost of failure (breaking the bubble) is astronomically higher. Literally in the billions of dollars, apparently. I don't see any reason to play with fire. Just consider it a cost of doing business, don't skimp on safety.
2. To give an idea of the gravity of the problem, suppose, as you say, the guy/gal checking you out at the grocery/store/restaurant/etc is taking a bigger risk and probably has more at stake. Despite this, I see these guys not wearing masks, and not wearing them properly pretty frequently. This tells us that enforcement is a significant issue, because even when people have a strong interest in doing something right, they don't.
3. And the bottom line is, for every NBA player, there will probably be several additional people. Preparing food, using the same toilets, cleaning rooms and so forth. It's well established that asymptomatic people can be contagious, and that the virus spreads through central AC, large open spaces, food contact, and restrooms. When you do the math on the number of interactions, I don't see how leaving room for error is ok.