OT? Thibs to NY Knicks on 5 year deal

[dougthonus]

If Mark Jackson or Jason Kidd or countless other coaches were coaching Derrick, they would have tried to turn him into something he wasn't, which was a passing PG. Thibs embraced Rose as a scoring guard and that maximized his talent. I doubt that Rose would have won MVP with many other coaches.

Regardless, I made the specific points about Derrick making noticeable improvements. You seem to be raising the bar to a level where no coach could ever reach. I would love an objective read on the situation. During his tenure how many players became all stars under him who never had before versus other coaches?

I'm not sure that questioning whether he developed Derrick Rose, whom was viewed as a franchise caliber talent before Thibs is really raising the bar to a level no one could reach.

He seemed to actively delay Jimmy Butler's development, whom developed very slowly under Thibs and continued to get much better after Thibs, as an example. He did this for the exact reason I stated of not giving time to young players.

It is my understanding that teams do few full on practices during the season. That said, they do film work with coaches regularly. What we refer to as a "shootaround" is really a pre-planned set of individual workouts with trainers. Walkthroughs are before every game and players have a chance to work with coaches then, put film work into play and work on 5 on 5 game understanding at a slower pace.

Don't get caught up in the word "practice" as being only full speed full team workouts. For every hour they spend on an NBA court, players will spend several working on their craft in some way. Some people might call that "practicing".

Are you suggesting that a player is going to improve at making correct defensive reads in walkthroughs and film sessions without being on the court or that they will be able to prove their ability to do so while not on the court? I agree these things are important, but playing as absolutely more important.

In general, I think you completely missed Thibodeau's point.

“Practice is important. The regular season is important. Your meetings are important. Your walk-through is important. Everything is important. You want to be a championship team, there's a price to pay. And that's what you have to do. There's no shortcuts. You can't shortcut your way to success.”

That goes with the above too.

You know how towards the end of the Rose run with Pau the team just kind of lollygagged its way through the regular season? If you go back to the board at the time, you will see many people talk about the team "flipping a switch". When the playoffs came, they were unable to do so.

This is a common thing in sports. A lot of players and teams think they can just turn it on when they feel like. Very few really can though. Thibodeau doesn't believe that game 15 of the regular season is going to make or break the team. The whole purpose of taking every game seriously is to teach players HOW to take games seriously. Work on conditioning. Develop good habits.

Here is another guy I'm guessing you would have hated as a coach but its exactly the same philosophy:
https://www.amazon.com/Winning-Habit-Lombardi-Success-Excellence/dp/0062702157

I didn't say I hated Thibs. I said he was a good coach. I said player development wasn't his strength. Some of what you said above, about providing that day in and day out consistency is great as a trait for any player to have and develop, but young players that need time on the court but don't get it because they make a mistake are not developting.

This is different from developing a group or a team or building your culture and mantra and your path to success and putting the work in or grinding or whatever. You seem to be broadening out the topic considerably more than what I am. I said, specifically, I don't believe he's a good player development guy. All those things you brought up to me are on the fringe of player development IMO, but yeah, they're all great things.

I'm a golfer, so I'll give a golf analogy. No one has ever improved their swing by taking their practice and game time like a joke and trying Happy Gilmore swings with their off hand. You get better by developing a swing routine and sticking to it.

Thibs didn't pull people for missing shots. Most of the issue with Thibs was players missing defensive assignments. Letting players do that regularly doesn't help them and it also demoralizes the rest of the team who are working to do the right thing.

I literally can't think of any single thing in my life, ever, not one single instance, where I got better at something by doing it the wrong way.

Your golf swing wouldn't get better if you did it wrong, and then I told you were wrong and wouldn't let you swing the club again either.

Only the most trivial things in life are done the right way the first time. They're done the wrong way many times with work towards the right way.

You don't make the right defensive assignment after missing one by getting pulled from the game and not getting another chance and getting few minutes. You get the right defensive assignment by getting constructive feedback after every game and given more chances to do so and make corrective behavior.

[musiqsoulchild]

Very happy for Thibs and for the Knicks.

This will be good for NY and thus good for the league.

[Jimako10]

Thibs helped develop Luol Deng into an all star, Butler into an all-star, Noah into a DPOY, Rose into an MVP. And they ALL credit Thibs for helping them get there. The players still have to put in the work, but there's no doubt that Thibs builds strong habits among winners. It's kind of ridiculous to say player development isn't a strength.

Kobe-

"He was crucial. He was with me when I was 16 or 17 years old," Bryant said Sunday night at Staples Center, after leading the Lakers to a 117-89 win over the Golden State Warriors. "Just doing drills and just working on ballhandling and just teaching me the game. He was there from Day 1."

Van Gundy on Yao's time with Thibs

“Yao was the greatest worker I believe that ever existed in the NBA. I don’t think anybody could ever have done more to put themselves in a position to be as good as they could be,” Van Gundy said. “But Tom was tremendous in developing a routine that Yao could follow—a blueprint to take him from being good to being great.”

[coldfish]

Are you suggesting that a player is going to improve at making correct defensive reads in walkthroughs and film sessions without being on the court or that they will be able to prove their ability to do so while not on the court? I agree these things are important, but playing as absolutely more important.

...

You don't make the right defensive assignment after missing one by getting pulled from the game and not getting another chance and getting few minutes. You get the right defensive assignment by getting constructive feedback after every game and given more chances to do so and make corrective behavior.

I look at it as two different types of mistakes. A player missing a shot is just a guy who needs more reps. A player who completely whiffs on a defensive assignment is the equivalent of a guy doing the happy gilmore golf swing. Just doing that more isn't going to help you get better. IMO, you pull them and tell them again (in the walkthrough), "when the ball goes here, you go here."

I realize I'm different than a lot of fans but I look at guys like Mirotic and Markannen as being outright offensive when they are playing defense off ball.

[MrSparkle]

I don't think I buy that Thibs' delayed Jimmy's development. It's just a total unknown - Jimmy himself has said repeatedly that (#1) he never expected to become an all-star, and (#2) that Bulls environment helped him become the player he is today. He has credited the practices, his teammates and coaches during that functional 2011-14 stretch.

I agree Tom was slow to just put Jimmy in the rotation. IMO he immediately established himself as a great intangible, hustle wing in his limited rookie stints, so I'm not sure why he wasn't played more with Bogans gone, Brewer declining, Rip oft injured, etc. But saying that Thibs was some kind of blocker in Jimmy's development, I don't buy it. Things happen for a reason, and Jimmy's development in summer 14 was totally unprecedented. If you look at the factors around it, I think he was pissed about the Bulls' contract offer, he was pissed about his limited offensive touches in the crappy Wizards series, Rose and Deng were motivational mentors for him and one of them was traded and the other was a shell of his MVP self as he returned. I don't know if simply playing Jimmy more minutes in 2011-13 leads to the same results earlier, if that makes sense. I can just as easily speculate that maybe a regular playing role would've gotten him comfortable as a career defensive specialist. The summer transformation was an anomaly situation we rarely ever see. We're not even talking about a Draymond jump from 2nd rd scrub to championship enforcer; Jimmy went from a defensive specialist with virtually no demonstrated offensive strengths, and rather average length/athletic metrics (important to note that, unlike Kawhi, Giannis, etc.) to becoming a pretty legitimate #1 option on a playoff team. That is the most opposite shift you can make in basketball. Even Pippen showed full-court handles and passing ability, flashy dunking in his Div 2 highlight reel.

I also read comments on the GB about how Rose, Deng and Noah's careers are all done after playing for Thibs. I still find that conspiracy to be totally bogus. I watched every game those guys played before Thibs came to town. Noah and Deng were more healthy for Thibs than they were for their other Bulls coaches. Plantar fasciitis, knee or ankle sprains, broken wrist, dislocated shoulders. Then you couple Noah's party lifestyle (even hung out with the guy at a club once) and drinking habits. Being an NBA all-star is very demanding on your body. Only the diet/training maniacs last long, high-effort, high-volume careers: Lebron, Nash, Malone, Jordan, Kobe. Clearly Deng, Rose, and Noah each had particular traits that did not work in their favors (whether it was over-compensating for skills, candy diets, etc. or just plainly more injury-prone running gaits).

Noah and Deng were 2x stars. More than Jalen Rose could say for himself (never made an all-star game and was pretty much irrelevant by 32). But similarly, I think perennially playing post-seasons against high level competition as a top-3 option (like Jalen's Pacers), it takes a lot out of your longevity. Fair to say that Noah and Deng were over-compensating for their skills from the moment they made the NBA. Good athletes and lengthy, sure. But both guys would lose a dribbling competition to amateurs at the park. And they weren't exactly shot makers. So what did they do to earn those contracts? They played defense and hustled. That'll kill your joints. Thibs shouldn't get the blame for that. If Noah and Deng wanted to play their games in 2nd gear, then they could've made 50% the salary and come off the bench for the champion Heat or Lakers. But they were high-usage starters on playoff teams that competed hard in the regular season. We liked seeing the Bulls win games. It came at a price.

[League Circles]

Minnesota made people forget.

I think five years of Hoiberg/Boylen made people forget that Thibs yanked young players extremely fast and never let them play through mistakes. It was a fairly consistent complaint in his era.

For the first two years, Thibbs didn't play real young guys cause we were the best team in the league and didn't have a need to play mediocre youth like James Johnson. For the next two years Derrick was injured and we didn't have much quality youth. Only guys worth mentioning were Butler, who played a lot, and Snell and Teague who surely played as much as their ability dictated IMO. Then in his last year we added Niko, who played a lot behind 3 better big men, and Doug, who sucked and thus played little.

[MrSparkle]

Minnesota made people forget.

I think five years of Hoiberg/Boylen made people forget that Thibs yanked young players extremely fast and never let them play through mistakes. It was a fairly consistent complaint in his era.

For the first two years, Thibbs didn't play real young guys cause we were the best team in the league and didn't have a need to play mediocre youth like James Johnson. For the next two years Derrick was injured and we didn't have much quality youth. Only guys worth mentioning were Butler, who played a lot, and Snell and Teague who surely played as much as their ability dictated IMO. Then in his last year we added Niko, who played a lot behind 3 better big men, and Doug, who sucked and thus played little.

Right. Asik played too.

I think JJ might've been overlooked. He could've been a very useful option against Lebron. Felt we need an athletic tweener. But we are talking about a bench journeyman who has averaged 8 ppg in 20 mpg for his 11-year career, and whatever moves were made in that locker-room, the Bulls' chemistry was clearly perfect after that trade.

Snell maybe should've played a little more in that Wizards series... that's what I felt at the time. Looking back on it, there really just wasn't anything in Snell. I personally would've preferred to see him lose the games instead of Kirk's corpse... but I do see that it was what it was.

[nitetrain8603]

If Mark Jackson or Jason Kidd or countless other coaches were coaching Derrick, they would have tried to turn him into something he wasn't, which was a passing PG. Thibs embraced Rose as a scoring guard and that maximized his talent. I doubt that Rose would have won MVP with many other coaches.

Regardless, I made the specific points about Derrick making noticeable improvements. You seem to be raising the bar to a level where no coach could ever reach. I would love an objective read on the situation. During his tenure how many players became all stars under him who never had before versus other coaches?

I'm not sure that questioning whether he developed Derrick Rose, whom was viewed as a franchise caliber talent before Thibs is really raising the bar to a level no one could reach.

He seemed to actively delay Jimmy Butler's development, whom developed very slowly under Thibs and continued to get much better after Thibs, as an example. He did this for the exact reason I stated of not giving time to young players.

It is my understanding that teams do few full on practices during the season. That said, they do film work with coaches regularly. What we refer to as a "shootaround" is really a pre-planned set of individual workouts with trainers. Walkthroughs are before every game and players have a chance to work with coaches then, put film work into play and work on 5 on 5 game understanding at a slower pace.

Don't get caught up in the word "practice" as being only full speed full team workouts. For every hour they spend on an NBA court, players will spend several working on their craft in some way. Some people might call that "practicing".

Are you suggesting that a player is going to improve at making correct defensive reads in walkthroughs and film sessions without being on the court or that they will be able to prove their ability to do so while not on the court? I agree these things are important, but playing as absolutely more important.

In general, I think you completely missed Thibodeau's point.

“Practice is important. The regular season is important. Your meetings are important. Your walk-through is important. Everything is important. You want to be a championship team, there's a price to pay. And that's what you have to do. There's no shortcuts. You can't shortcut your way to success.”

That goes with the above too.

You know how towards the end of the Rose run with Pau the team just kind of lollygagged its way through the regular season? If you go back to the board at the time, you will see many people talk about the team "flipping a switch". When the playoffs came, they were unable to do so.

This is a common thing in sports. A lot of players and teams think they can just turn it on when they feel like. Very few really can though. Thibodeau doesn't believe that game 15 of the regular season is going to make or break the team. The whole purpose of taking every game seriously is to teach players HOW to take games seriously. Work on conditioning. Develop good habits.

Here is another guy I'm guessing you would have hated as a coach but its exactly the same philosophy:
https://www.amazon.com/Winning-Habit-Lombardi-Success-Excellence/dp/0062702157

I didn't say I hated Thibs. I said he was a good coach. I said player development wasn't his strength. Some of what you said above, about providing that day in and day out consistency is great as a trait for any player to have and develop, but young players that need time on the court but don't get it because they make a mistake are not developting.

This is different from developing a group or a team or building your culture and mantra and your path to success and putting the work in or grinding or whatever. You seem to be broadening out the topic considerably more than what I am. I said, specifically, I don't believe he's a good player development guy. All those things you brought up to me are on the fringe of player development IMO, but yeah, they're all great things.

I'm a golfer, so I'll give a golf analogy. No one has ever improved their swing by taking their practice and game time like a joke and trying Happy Gilmore swings with their off hand. You get better by developing a swing routine and sticking to it.

Thibs didn't pull people for missing shots. Most of the issue with Thibs was players missing defensive assignments. Letting players do that regularly doesn't help them and it also demoralizes the rest of the team who are working to do the right thing.

I literally can't think of any single thing in my life, ever, not one single instance, where I got better at something by doing it the wrong way.

Your golf swing wouldn't get better if you did it wrong, and then I told you were wrong and wouldn't let you swing the club again either.

Only the most trivial things in life are done the right way the first time. They're done the wrong way many times with work towards the right way.

You don't make the right defensive assignment after missing one by getting pulled from the game and not getting another chance and getting few minutes. You get the right defensive assignment by getting constructive feedback after every game and given more chances to do so and make corrective behavior.

Jimmy has thanked Thibs and given him a lot of credit for his development. Doesn't seem like Jimmy had a problem with how he came along. In fact when Jimmy bet on himself, Thibs was the one who gave him the ball and told him to run with it. That leap came on Thibs' watch. Thibs also made Noah an all-star (he was never that caliber of player before him). He revived Deng's career and made him an all-star. He launched Rose into a new stratosphere. I can't think of one guy that Thibs actually held back who got better after Thibs left except for Kyle Korver who I would argue was out of usage.

He never put players out there who weren't ready. Even LaVine thanks Thibs for his development. And LaVine was what, 19 years old when Thibs gave him the keys? And don't argue that LaVine was great on defense. KAT is not any better of a player without Thibs. He flat out doesn't listen. Puts up monster empty stats, sort of like Kevin Love with Minny. Wiggins isn't any better either.

[Jimako10]

Lavine gushing about Thibs to Joe Cowley already.....it would be hilarious if he traded for Lavine after trading for Butler.

“[His] style works,’’ LaVine said back in February of the coach. “He’s not a beat-around-the-bush type of guy. This is just a guy that once you buy into his coaching, I mean look at the track record. It’s pretty damn good.’’

https://chicago.suntimes.com/bulls/2020/7/25/21338635/hiring-tom-thibodeau-puts-knicks-rebuild-ahead-of-bulls

[PaKii94]

I don't think I buy that Thibs' delayed Jimmy's development. It's just a total unknown - Jimmy himself has said repeatedly that (#1) he never expected to become an all-star, and (#2) that Bulls environment helped him become the player he is today. He has credited the practices, his teammates and coaches during that functional 2011-14 stretch.

I agree Tom was slow to just put Jimmy in the rotation. IMO he immediately established himself as a great intangible, hustle wing in his limited rookie stints, so I'm not sure why he wasn't played more with Bogans gone, Brewer declining, Rip oft injured, etc. But saying that Thibs was some kind of blocker in Jimmy's development, I don't buy it. Things happen for a reason, and Jimmy's development in summer 14 was totally unprecedented. If you look at the factors around it, I think he was pissed about the Bulls' contract offer, he was pissed about his limited offensive touches in the crappy Wizards series, Rose and Deng were motivational mentors for him and one of them was traded and the other was a shell of his MVP self as he returned. I don't know if simply playing Jimmy more minutes in 2011-13 leads to the same results earlier, if that makes sense. I can just as easily speculate that maybe a regular playing role would've gotten him comfortable as a career defensive specialist. The summer transformation was an anomaly situation we rarely ever see. We're not even talking about a Draymond jump from 2nd rd scrub to championship enforcer; Jimmy went from a defensive specialist with virtually no demonstrated offensive strengths, and rather average length/athletic metrics (important to note that, unlike Kawhi, Giannis, etc.) to becoming a pretty legitimate #1 option on a playoff team. That is the most opposite shift you can make in basketball. Even Pippen showed full-court handles and passing ability, flashy dunking in his Div 2 highlight reel.

Jimmy didn't come out of no where. He was at Deng (fringe all star) level in his third year (2013-14). 4th year he improved his individual offense to a legitimate all star level

[League Circles]

Jimmy was basically a terrible offensive player until year 4.

[HomoSapien]

Boy, I really can’t even begin to see an argument for how Thibs slowed Butler’s development. The fact that he went from an injured reserve, to a key role player, to a consistent starter, to an All-Star level player seems like fast development to me.

[PaKii94]

Jimmy was basically a terrible offensive player until year 4.

He barely played year 1,

He was at 11.8 ppg @ 58%TS + all NBA defense year 2 when he got burn in the playoffs (elite roleplayer).

Year 3 he was at 13.5 PPG @ 60%TS + all NBA defense before the turf toe injury killed his season

Year 4 was 18.6 PPG @ 58% TS.

Jimmy Butler was never a terrible offensive player. He was actually a limited but very valuable player (albeit roleplayer level) from the beginning

[wonderboy2]

Knicks might become scary. Thibs is a boss of a coach. It seems like the bulls new ownership might be puppets of Reisndorf.

[League Circles]

Jimmy was basically a terrible offensive player until year 4.

He barely played year 1,

He was at 11.8 ppg @ 58%TS + all NBA defense year 2 when he got burn in the playoffs (elite roleplayer).

Year 3 he was at 13.5 PPG @ 60%TS + all NBA defense before the turf toe injury killed his season

Year 4 was 18.6 PPG @ 58% TS.

Jimmy Butler was never a terrible offensive player. He was actually a limited but very valuable player (albeit roleplayer level) from the beginning

Nothing you wrote really contradicts my claim IMO. He was a very low volume scorer his first three years and a non creator for others. He was also inefficient on his small volume in years 1 and 3.

I will give him that he didn't make a ton of mistakes, just didn't contribute in a positive way, created nothing for teammates, and didn't command attention from defenders, which he only took very limited advantage of in year 2 only. Everything changed for him offensively in year 4.

Yes, he was always a solid role player from the get go because he was a very capable defender and that's half the game.

His per game scoring volume looks ok cause he played a ton of minutes. Very low volume.

[dice]

Knicks might become scary. Thibs is a boss of a coach. It seems like the bulls new ownership might be puppets of Reisndorf.

did the wolves become scary? they had more talent than the knicks

[PaKii94]

Jimmy was basically a terrible offensive player until year 4.

He barely played year 1,

He was at 11.8 ppg @ 58%TS + all NBA defense year 2 when he got burn in the playoffs (elite roleplayer).

Year 3 he was at 13.5 PPG @ 60%TS + all NBA defense before the turf toe injury killed his season

Year 4 was 18.6 PPG @ 58% TS.

Jimmy Butler was never a terrible offensive player. He was actually a limited but very valuable player (albeit roleplayer level) from the beginning

Nothing you wrote really contradicts my claim IMO. He was a very low volume scorer his first three years and a non creator for others. He was also inefficient on his small volume in years 1 and 3.

I will give him that he didn't make a ton of mistakes, just didn't contribute in a positive way, created nothing for teammates, and didn't command attention from defenders, which he only took very limited advantage of in year 2 only. Everything changed for him offensively in year 4.

Yes, he was always a solid role player from the get go because he was a very capable defender and that's half the game.

His per game scoring volume looks ok cause he played a ton of minutes. Very low volume.

Sorry, that's the wrong way to look at it. I'd much rather have a 15 PPG role player at 60%TS vs a 20-25ppg role player at 53% TS.

For his ROLE he was a very high value player. He DID make the offense better, how you ask? By making the right plays, not turning the ball over (he's a league leader in that), drawing fouls (also league leader). The offense was not run through him and get he still provided a positive offensive impact. All his advanced stats point towards a strong positive on offense even before year 4 (besides again barely playing in a rookie season without a proper training camp/summer league and a turd toe riddled year 3).

And the numbers I quoted were p36 minutes so high minutes are accounted for.

[wonderboy2]

Jimmy was basically a terrible offensive player until year 4.

He barely played year 1,

He was at 11.8 ppg @ 58%TS + all NBA defense year 2 when he got burn in the playoffs (elite roleplayer).

Year 3 he was at 13.5 PPG @ 60%TS + all NBA defense before the turf toe injury killed his season

Year 4 was 18.6 PPG @ 58% TS.

Jimmy Butler was never a terrible offensive player. He was actually a limited but very valuable player (albeit roleplayer level) from the beginning

I was one of Butlers biggest supporters. But young butler showed flashes. But I have to say the year when Deng got traded mid season and butler got the opportunity to start, He kindve was bad on offense. So much so that people wanted him traded for Iman Shumpert. And he got absolutely scorched by Bradley Beal in that Washington Wizard Series. I mean he was a non-factor. So much so that Dunleavy made more of in impact.

[PaKii94]

Jimmy was basically a terrible offensive player until year 4.

He barely played year 1,

He was at 11.8 ppg @ 58%TS + all NBA defense year 2 when he got burn in the playoffs (elite roleplayer).

Year 3 he was at 13.5 PPG @ 60%TS + all NBA defense before the turf toe injury killed his season

Year 4 was 18.6 PPG @ 58% TS.

Jimmy Butler was never a terrible offensive player. He was actually a limited but very valuable player (albeit roleplayer level) from the beginning

I was one of Butlers biggest supporters. But young butler showed flashes. But I have to say the year when Deng got traded mid season and butler got the opportunity to start, He kindve was bad on offense. So much so that people wanted him traded for Iman Shumpert. And he got absolutely scorched by Bradley Beal in that Washington Wizard Series. I mean he was a non-factor. So much so that Dunleavy made more of in impact.

Like I said. He dealt with turf toe for most of the season (after first 9 games)

[PaKii94]

He barely played year 1,

He was at 11.8 ppg @ 58%TS + all NBA defense year 2 when he got burn in the playoffs (elite roleplayer).

Year 3 he was at 13.5 PPG @ 60%TS + all NBA defense before the turf toe injury killed his season

Year 4 was 18.6 PPG @ 58% TS.

Jimmy Butler was never a terrible offensive player. He was actually a limited but very valuable player (albeit roleplayer level) from the beginning

Nothing you wrote really contradicts my claim IMO. He was a very low volume scorer his first three years and a non creator for others. He was also inefficient on his small volume in years 1 and 3.

I will give him that he didn't make a ton of mistakes, just didn't contribute in a positive way, created nothing for teammates, and didn't command attention from defenders, which he only took very limited advantage of in year 2 only. Everything changed for him offensively in year 4.

Yes, he was always a solid role player from the get go because he was a very capable defender and that's half the game.

His per game scoring volume looks ok cause he played a ton of minutes. Very low volume.

Sorry, that's the wrong way to look at it. I'd much rather have a 15 PPG role player at 60%TS vs a 20-25ppg role player at 53% TS.

For his ROLE he was a very high value player. He DID make the offense better, how you ask? By making the right plays, not turning the ball over (he's a league leader in that), drawing fouls (also league leader). The offense was not run through him and get he still provided a positive offensive impact. All his advanced stats point towards a strong positive on offense even before year 4 (besides again barely playing in a rookie season without a proper training camp/summer league and a turd toe riddled year 3).

And the numbers I quoted were p36 minutes so high minutes are accounted for.

I know you'll completely disagree with me but put second year Jimmy on this team instead of Lavine and we would win quite a few more games. That was the extent of Jimmy's impact.

Here is a fun fact. Year 3 Jimmy (his worse offensive year) he had an ORTG of 108. Year 2 he was at 121. His star years he's been above 120+ ORTG.

Lavine the last two years(his best years)? 106.