OT? Thibs to NY Knicks on 5 year deal

[League Circles]

He barely played year 1,

He was at 11.8 ppg @ 58%TS + all NBA defense year 2 when he got burn in the playoffs (elite roleplayer).

Year 3 he was at 13.5 PPG @ 60%TS + all NBA defense before the turf toe injury killed his season

Year 4 was 18.6 PPG @ 58% TS.

Jimmy Butler was never a terrible offensive player. He was actually a limited but very valuable player (albeit roleplayer level) from the beginning

Nothing you wrote really contradicts my claim IMO. He was a very low volume scorer his first three years and a non creator for others. He was also inefficient on his small volume in years 1 and 3.

I will give him that he didn't make a ton of mistakes, just didn't contribute in a positive way, created nothing for teammates, and didn't command attention from defenders, which he only took very limited advantage of in year 2 only. Everything changed for him offensively in year 4.

Yes, he was always a solid role player from the get go because he was a very capable defender and that's half the game.

His per game scoring volume looks ok cause he played a ton of minutes. Very low volume.

Sorry, that's the wrong way to look at it. I'd much rather have a 15 PPG role player at 60%TS vs a 20-25ppg role player at 53% TS.

But Jimmy wasn't close to being either of those players. He was scoring 10-12 pts and 2 assists per 36 while providing no spacing and having crappy efficiency to boot in 2 of those 3 years. I don't know what to tell you. That sucks.

[PaKii94]

Nothing you wrote really contradicts my claim IMO. He was a very low volume scorer his first three years and a non creator for others. He was also inefficient on his small volume in years 1 and 3.

I will give him that he didn't make a ton of mistakes, just didn't contribute in a positive way, created nothing for teammates, and didn't command attention from defenders, which he only took very limited advantage of in year 2 only. Everything changed for him offensively in year 4.

Yes, he was always a solid role player from the get go because he was a very capable defender and that's half the game.

His per game scoring volume looks ok cause he played a ton of minutes. Very low volume.

Sorry, that's the wrong way to look at it. I'd much rather have a 15 PPG role player at 60%TS vs a 20-25ppg role player at 53% TS.

But Jimmy wasn't close to being either of those players. He was scoring 10-12 pts and 2 assists per 36 while providing no spacing and having crappy efficiency to boot in 2 of those 3 years. I don't know what to tell you. That sucks.

He was close to the first. You keep bring up 2 of 3 years to make your point when those 2 of 3 years shouldn't even apply in this discussion.

[dice]

Jimmy was basically a terrible offensive player until year 4.

He barely played year 1,

He was at 11.8 ppg @ 58%TS + all NBA defense year 2 when he got burn in the playoffs (elite roleplayer).

Year 3 he was at 13.5 PPG @ 60%TS + all NBA defense before the turf toe injury killed his season

Year 4 was 18.6 PPG @ 58% TS.

Jimmy Butler was never a terrible offensive player. He was actually a limited but very valuable player (albeit roleplayer level) from the beginning

I was one of Butlers biggest supporters. But young butler showed flashes. But I have to say the year when Deng got traded mid season and butler got the opportunity to start, He kindve was bad on offense. So much so that people wanted him traded for Iman Shumpert. And he got absolutely scorched by Bradley Beal in that Washington Wizard Series. I mean he was a non-factor. So much so that Dunleavy made more of in impact.

he got scorched by a guy who scored 20 points a game despite playing 41 minutes per game?

and dunleavy played really well for the bulls, so that's not helping your point

[dice]

Sorry, that's the wrong way to look at it. I'd much rather have a 15 PPG role player at 60%TS vs a 20-25ppg role player at 53% TS.

But Jimmy wasn't close to being either of those players. He was scoring 10-12 pts and 2 assists per 36 while providing no spacing and having crappy efficiency to boot in 2 of those 3 years. I don't know what to tell you. That sucks.

He was close to the first. You keep bring up 2 of 3 years to make your point when those 2 of 3 years shouldn't even apply in this discussion.

he was a projected 2nd round pick who was 12th man on a title contender his rookie year, so that season indeed isn't evidence of much at all. he was solid his 2nd year and began to blossom as a starter in the playoffs that year. the only time he disappointed in chicago was that third season when, as you mentioned, he was dealing with injury

[TheStig]

He barely played year 1,

He was at 11.8 ppg @ 58%TS + all NBA defense year 2 when he got burn in the playoffs (elite roleplayer).

Year 3 he was at 13.5 PPG @ 60%TS + all NBA defense before the turf toe injury killed his season

Year 4 was 18.6 PPG @ 58% TS.

Jimmy Butler was never a terrible offensive player. He was actually a limited but very valuable player (albeit roleplayer level) from the beginning

I was one of Butlers biggest supporters. But young butler showed flashes. But I have to say the year when Deng got traded mid season and butler got the opportunity to start, He kindve was bad on offense. So much so that people wanted him traded for Iman Shumpert. And he got absolutely scorched by Bradley Beal in that Washington Wizard Series. I mean he was a non-factor. So much so that Dunleavy made more of in impact.

he got scorched by a guy who scored 20 points a game despite playing 41 minutes per game?

and dunleavy played really well for the bulls, so that's not helping your point

Wasn't he playing through an injury that post season too? I remember him not looking right.

[League Circles]

Sorry, that's the wrong way to look at it. I'd much rather have a 15 PPG role player at 60%TS vs a 20-25ppg role player at 53% TS.

But Jimmy wasn't close to being either of those players. He was scoring 10-12 pts and 2 assists per 36 while providing no spacing and having crappy efficiency to boot in 2 of those 3 years. I don't know what to tell you. That sucks.

He was close to the first. You keep bring up 2 of 3 years to make your point when those 2 of 3 years shouldn't even apply in this discussion.

No, he wasn't close to the first. His best year among the first 3 was Year 2 where he scored a mere 8.6 ppg (11.9 pp36) on .574 TS%. Most "15 ppg" scorers actually probably average more like 17-18 pp36, and .574 isn't actually particularly close to .600.

And why should 2 of his first 3 years not matter when evaluating him in those first 3 years?

[MrFortune3]

I think five years of Hoiberg/Boylen made people forget that Thibs yanked young players extremely fast and never let them play through mistakes. It was a fairly consistent complaint in his era.

For the first two years, Thibbs didn't play real young guys cause we were the best team in the league and didn't have a need to play mediocre youth like James Johnson. For the next two years Derrick was injured and we didn't have much quality youth. Only guys worth mentioning were Butler, who played a lot, and Snell and Teague who surely played as much as their ability dictated IMO. Then in his last year we added Niko, who played a lot behind 3 better big men, and Doug, who sucked and thus played little.

Right. Asik played too.

I think JJ might've been overlooked. He could've been a very useful option against Lebron. Felt we need an athletic tweener. But we are talking about a bench journeyman who has averaged 8 ppg in 20 mpg for his 11-year career, and whatever moves were made in that locker-room, the Bulls' chemistry was clearly perfect after that trade.

Snell maybe should've played a little more in that Wizards series... that's what I felt at the time. Looking back on it, there really just wasn't anything in Snell. I personally would've preferred to see him lose the games instead of Kirk's corpse... but I do see that it was what it was.

Losing Asik is something we never really fixed. Hurt the bench mob from a defensive standpoint.

[dice]

I was one of Butlers biggest supporters. But young butler showed flashes. But I have to say the year when Deng got traded mid season and butler got the opportunity to start, He kindve was bad on offense. So much so that people wanted him traded for Iman Shumpert. And he got absolutely scorched by Bradley Beal in that Washington Wizard Series. I mean he was a non-factor. So much so that Dunleavy made more of in impact.

he got scorched by a guy who scored 20 points a game despite playing 41 minutes per game?

and dunleavy played really well for the bulls, so that's not helping your point

Wasn't he playing through an injury that post season too? I remember him not looking right.

don't remember. looked alright here though:

Watch on YouTube

[rtblues]

Somehow I don't see Thibs even sniffing the 3rd year of that contract.
This won't end well...

[RSP83]

I hope it works out for Thibs. And I hope things will start looking up for Bulls. Having both New York and Chicago among the top teams will be great for the league.

[Bulldog23]

Congrats to Thibs! Great coach. I am not surprised that Thibs gets the job then there is a rumor about a trade for Lavine. Thibs loves players that know his system and aren’t afraid to work. I bet he regrets trading Lavine to Bulls. I can see in the interview they asked which players do you need to help this team take it to the next level. Thibs is like I need one of these guys, then I can turn it around sooner otherwise it will take sometime. Just my thoughts on Thibs and Lavine speculation.

[StunnerKO]

Jimmy was hurt his 3rd year he took a dip in offense his defense was still good tho . Jimmy was dealing with turf toe he got in the 9th game of the year were he missed the next 11 games . Jimmy scoring efficiency were really bad all year including playoffs. He was just reliable on defense and logging heavy mins

[chitowndish]

I think it's a good fit, one of the biggest problems NY has had is they are always chasing big name players that are past their prime and throwing a bunch of scorers together hoping it will all work itself out and Thibs is basically the exact opposite of that he'll get a strong system in there, he'll get people on the same page and executing cohesively and he can build teams that are more than the sum of their parts where NY often built hype teams that ended up being less than the sum of their parts.

It will be interesting to see how it works long term but I fully expect him to whip that team into shape and with Dolan (historically) being willing to spend it could get dangerous. I think there are a lot of guys that want to play with Thibs I think Kobe said something about wanting to play with him and Lebron said he really enjoyed being coached by him in the olympics and I remember it was a selling point for Melo so that could become a good destination and I think if you win a ring in NY you'd basically be a hero in the biggest city of the world so I could definitely see a group of stars wanting to team up in NY to win a championship there. Giannis may be one to watch if he goes there and gets some help it could start to get really interesting and with what Thibs was able to do with Noah as a point center he's actually got some experience building a system around a player like that.

[dougthonus]

I look at it as two different types of mistakes. A player missing a shot is just a guy who needs more reps. A player who completely whiffs on a defensive assignment is the equivalent of a guy doing the happy gilmore golf swing. Just doing that more isn't going to help you get better. IMO, you pull them and tell them again (in the walkthrough), "when the ball goes here, you go here."

I realize I'm different than a lot of fans but I look at guys like Mirotic and Markannen as being outright offensive when they are playing defense off ball.

Early reps of any activity always have mistakes, it takes time to develop the right form/habits, and they gradually improve and become more precise. The ability to read a defense improves by being out there and reading the defense. Even if you are making mistakes, you're learning some things about the defense through them and aren't going to permanently set yourself into bad habits by getting feedback in film session after a game rather than getting yanked right away.

I think it's very incorrect to think you wouldn't improve by playing through those things as long as you get corrective feedback after the game for areas where you don't realize you are making mistakes, but often, players know the mistakes they are making in the moment and will automatically make adjustments.

Do you really believe that Thibs remotely did any of this with player development in mind? He did this because he was pissed he lost a possession not because he thought I better take this guy out so I can give him feedback and let him improve in the long run. The fact that guys lost minutes for a long time and didn't go back out the next day is evidence of this.

My favorite example of this theory that is very practical and you can go do on your own is to go play some single handed sport you're decent at with your dominant hand with your off hand (Pool, Racquet ball, Tennis, etc...). You know everything you need to do, but you can't execute? Why not? You have all the knowledge. You know the correct form to use. It's because you have no reps, you have no muscle memory. Now how helpful would it be to have someone give you verbal corrections but not let you actually get reps in? It would be absolutely no help whatsoever. You simply need reps.

So yes, I'm with you that you absolutely need to be practicing the right thing, but the most important thing is reps with consistent feedback on how to improve if you are unaware of the mistakes you're making. Many times, we're very acutely aware of those mistakes already and will self correct, but you still need reps. Thibs is not a reps giver.

[coldfish]

I look at it as two different types of mistakes. A player missing a shot is just a guy who needs more reps. A player who completely whiffs on a defensive assignment is the equivalent of a guy doing the happy gilmore golf swing. Just doing that more isn't going to help you get better. IMO, you pull them and tell them again (in the walkthrough), "when the ball goes here, you go here."

I realize I'm different than a lot of fans but I look at guys like Mirotic and Markannen as being outright offensive when they are playing defense off ball.

Early reps of any activity always have mistakes, it takes time to develop the right form/habits, and they gradually improve and become more precise. The ability to read a defense improves by being out there and reading the defense. Even if you are making mistakes, you're learning some things about the defense through them and aren't going to permanently set yourself into bad habits by getting feedback in film session after a game rather than getting yanked right away.

I think it's very incorrect to think you wouldn't improve by playing through those things as long as you get corrective feedback after the game for areas where you don't realize you are making mistakes, but often, players know the mistakes they are making in the moment and will automatically make adjustments.

Do you really believe that Thibs remotely did any of this with player development in mind? He did this because he was pissed he lost a possession not because he thought I better take this guy out so I can give him feedback and let him improve in the long run. The fact that guys lost minutes for a long time and didn't go back out the next day is evidence of this.

My favorite example of this theory that is very practical and you can go do on your own is to go play some single handed sport you're decent at with your dominant hand with your off hand (Pool, Racquet ball, Tennis, etc...). You know everything you need to do, but you can't execute? Why not? You have all the knowledge. You know the correct form to use. It's because you have no reps, you have no muscle memory. Now how helpful would it be to have someone give you verbal corrections but not let you actually get reps in? It would be absolutely no help whatsoever. You simply need reps.

So yes, I'm with you that you absolutely need to be practicing the right thing, but the most important thing is reps with consistent feedback on how to improve if you are unaware of the mistakes you're making. Many times, we're very acutely aware of those mistakes already and will self correct, but you still need reps. Thibs is not a reps giver.

Obviously I completely disagree.

Yes, I do think that Thibs did a lot of this stuff with the intent of teaching players to play the right way. He point blank has said it over and over and his actions match his words. He is big into forming positive habits.

I disagree on the learning, at least in this instance. Guys like Mirotic would completely whiff on defensive assignments with regularity. He either completely didn't understand what to do or didn't care to. Putting people like that on the court isn't helping them and is rather demoralizing for the other players.

I'm not talking about running a pick and roll where the pass is a little late and more reps will improve that. Thibs would leave guys out on the court who were having bad nights with some regularity. He let players, even young guys, play through their struggles even to the detriment of the team as long as those struggles weren't effort related.

I'll give a counter analogy. Let's say you want to improve your free throws. I tell you to go practice them. Get reps. The caveat is that you have to shoot all of your shots Noah tornado style. Are those reps really going to improve anything? More likely than not, its going to make you a worse free throw shooter as you forget your normal form and get a poor shot mechanic into your muscle memory.

Reps only matter once you have moderate understanding of proper fundamentals.

The example I'll point to is Asik. A low regarded, low skill rookie. He came in, played the way that TT wanted him to and as a result, he got regular and increasing minutes.

[TheStig]

he got scorched by a guy who scored 20 points a game despite playing 41 minutes per game?

and dunleavy played really well for the bulls, so that's not helping your point

Wasn't he playing through an injury that post season too? I remember him not looking right.

don't remember. looked alright here though:

Watch on YouTube

Regardless of a fight, didn't he have some toe or foot injury that was slowing him down?

[FriedRise]

I think Thibs didn't work in Minny because they gave him too much responsibility. They tried to turn him into Pop there with the coach + president of basketball operations role, and we all know there's only ever gonna be one Pop. When his role is limited to just coaching (a.k.a his Chicago stint), he's done pretty well.

It's kinda similar to what the Bulls did with Jim Boylen last year by giving him other responsibilities to do on top of being a head coach, like dealing with players agents, meeting with season ticket holders, etc. It's weird that we don't have the staff to do this kind of stuff, but I guess that's what you can expect from a small market mom and pop shop like the Chicago Bulls. Why spend more money hiring more people to do specialized things if you can do more with less? Maybe that's what AK/Eversley are thinking - that if Jimbo is limited to just coaching, he'll do better (which I highly doubt).

[nitetrain8603]

Thibs is going to give the players structure and a gameplan. That's something NY has been missing for awhile. I think he's going to help turn Mitchell Robinson into a monster. I think RJ Barrett is going to take longer to develop than realized. I also think, if Derrick Smith Jr is going to reach his potential in the NBA, it will be under Thibs' watch.

Frank N is hard to read. He's great defensively, but offensively, I'm not sure what Thibs can do with him. He's Tyus Jones with worse offense (decent passer and that's it). Only way I see him being used is at SG next to DSJ. Knicks do need some players though.

I also wouldn't be surprised if LaVine leaves for New York in a couple of years if Thibs is successful so far. Knicks have actual structure from the FO to the coaching. I'm happy for them.

[ChettheJet]

Based on seeing how Thibs worked here and MINN with young players depending on the plan of the GM, I would seriously look at the Knicks trading down, and taking veterans and late round picks in both rounds. Maybe even trading the young guys they have. I think we saw Thibs not trusting young players at key points of the game, the excessive minutes Butler played. He's not going to change his style and he's there for at least close to 5 years. They'd be stupid to try and force young players on him for one year and then have to change course after 2 or 3 seasons.

They're a potential trading partner if you think you know their plan and you've got pieces that fit their plan.

[MrFortune3]

Knicks might become scary. Thibs is a boss of a coach. It seems like the bulls new ownership might be puppets of Reisndorf.

did the wolves become scary? they had more talent than the knicks

They had two of the softest "superstars" I have ever seen in my life.
KAT and Wiggins should be two way monsters and straight up dominant but they refuse to give defensive effort