‘11 Dwight Howard or ‘15 James Harden

Moderators: penbeast0, trex_8063, PaulieWal, Doctor MJ, Clyde Frazier

Better player?

‘11 Dwight Howard
13
52%
‘15 James Harden
12
48%
 
Total votes: 25

Matt15
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,413
And1: 499
Joined: Aug 27, 2008

‘11 Dwight Howard or ‘15 James Harden 

Post#1 » by Matt15 » Sun Aug 2, 2020 6:05 am

Who was the better player?
No-more-rings
Head Coach
Posts: 7,053
And1: 3,850
Joined: Oct 04, 2018

Re: ‘11 Dwight Howard or ‘15 James Harden 

Post#2 » by No-more-rings » Sun Aug 2, 2020 1:58 pm

I’m not real confident in my answer but i’ll say Harden, his 2015 season gets underrated for some reason. It was easily better than his 16’ season, and I’d probably take it over 2017 as well. It was one of his best years by RAPM and remains as his 2nd best playoff run behind 2019.
Jiminy Glick
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,915
And1: 726
Joined: Jun 28, 2016

Re: ‘11 Dwight Howard or ‘15 James Harden 

Post#3 » by Jiminy Glick » Sun Aug 2, 2020 5:00 pm

Dwight but the team would need a dominant scorer.
User avatar
GeorgeMarcus
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 17,931
And1: 23,045
Joined: Jun 17, 2006
     

Re: ‘11 Dwight Howard or ‘15 James Harden 

Post#4 » by GeorgeMarcus » Sun Aug 2, 2020 10:52 pm

I've come to develop the opinion that Dwight was given too much credit for the Magic's success at the expense of his talented/tailor made supporting cast. Jameer Nelson and Rashard Lewis in particular.

As such I'll take '15 Harden without thinking twice about it.
The Legend of George Marcus

"Where I'm from, bullies get bullied." - Zach Randolph
No-more-rings
Head Coach
Posts: 7,053
And1: 3,850
Joined: Oct 04, 2018

Re: ‘11 Dwight Howard or ‘15 James Harden 

Post#5 » by No-more-rings » Sun Aug 2, 2020 10:56 pm

GeorgeMarcus wrote:I've come to develop the opinion that Dwight was given too much credit for the Magic's success at the expense of his talented/tailor made supporting cast. Jameer Nelson and Rashard Lewis in particular.

As such I'll take '15 Harden without thinking twice about it.

You say that like Nelson and Lewis were some mega stars or something.
User avatar
OdomFan
General Manager
Posts: 8,155
And1: 6,584
Joined: Jan 07, 2017
Location: Maryland
   

Re: ‘11 Dwight Howard or ‘15 James Harden 

Post#6 » by OdomFan » Sun Aug 2, 2020 11:08 pm

Dwight. I'd say he'd be a better fit with any team Hardens ever played on. If you give those OKC teams 2011 Dwight Howard, they'd defintely be in better position to win a championship.

If you give CP3 Dwight over Harden, those two would have had a shot at winning championship in Houston.

I don't see Harden taking the Magic to a single NBA Finals in place of Howard. They didn't work well together either during their time together because of the way Harden does things.
Image
User avatar
TheGOATRises007
RealGM
Posts: 20,139
And1: 18,316
Joined: Oct 05, 2013
         

Re: ‘11 Dwight Howard or ‘15 James Harden 

Post#7 » by TheGOATRises007 » Sun Aug 2, 2020 11:44 pm

I'm not high on Dwight at all.

I think Harden was clearly the better player in this comparison.
User avatar
GeorgeMarcus
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 17,931
And1: 23,045
Joined: Jun 17, 2006
     

Re: ‘11 Dwight Howard or ‘15 James Harden 

Post#8 » by GeorgeMarcus » Mon Aug 3, 2020 12:02 am

No-more-rings wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:I've come to develop the opinion that Dwight was given too much credit for the Magic's success at the expense of his talented/tailor made supporting cast. Jameer Nelson and Rashard Lewis in particular.

As such I'll take '15 Harden without thinking twice about it.

You say that like Nelson and Lewis were some mega stars or something.


They don't have to be megastars to justify my claim. A collection of high-end/well-fitting players does the trick just fine (see current Raptors, '15 Hawks, etc.) In the the case of Nelson/Lewis, they were both All-Star talents in their prime.

Most teams would need to sacrifice talent to surround Dwight with the kind of spacing he had in Orlando. They catered the roster to his abilities (as they should) but even still there isn't much evidence to suggest his impact was more pronounced than the guys I mentioned.
The Legend of George Marcus

"Where I'm from, bullies get bullied." - Zach Randolph
No-more-rings
Head Coach
Posts: 7,053
And1: 3,850
Joined: Oct 04, 2018

Re: ‘11 Dwight Howard or ‘15 James Harden 

Post#9 » by No-more-rings » Mon Aug 3, 2020 12:30 pm

GeorgeMarcus wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:I've come to develop the opinion that Dwight was given too much credit for the Magic's success at the expense of his talented/tailor made supporting cast. Jameer Nelson and Rashard Lewis in particular.

As such I'll take '15 Harden without thinking twice about it.

You say that like Nelson and Lewis were some mega stars or something.


They don't have to be megastars to justify my claim. A collection of high-end/well-fitting players does the trick just fine (see current Raptors, '15 Hawks, etc.) In the the case of Nelson/Lewis, they were both All-Star talents in their prime.

Most teams would need to sacrifice talent to surround Dwight with the kind of spacing he had in Orlando. They catered the roster to his abilities (as they should) but even still there isn't much evidence to suggest his impact was more pronounced than the guys I mentioned.

Lewis only played 25 games in 2011 and Jameer was nothing like an all star that year, 13ppg/6apg 15.4 PER, 1.1 BPM. Dwight still took them to 52 wins, 3rd ranked drtg and a still ok-ish offense. And Dwight's impact was so low that the Magic were arguably the worst team in the league their first year without him, 20 wins, 25th drtg, 27th ortg.

It sounds like you are going off of narratives, and not acknowledging how good Dwight really was.

Like Dwight didn't have more impact than Nelson and Lewis, seriously? You're too good of a poster to make such a ridiculous claim.
Bergmaniac
Head Coach
Posts: 6,282
And1: 9,492
Joined: Jan 08, 2010
 

Re: ‘11 Dwight Howard or ‘15 James Harden 

Post#10 » by Bergmaniac » Mon Aug 3, 2020 1:28 pm

We got to the Finals in 2009 without Jameer, he missed all of the Eastern Conference playoffs that season.

The 2011 team was basically Dwight and a bunch of role players most of whom were subpar defenders. J-Rich at this point of his career was a turnstyle on D and not that good on offence either without Nash feeding him the ball, Hedo was past it, Jameer shot well in the regular season, but he was never much of a playmaker and never a good defender, we didn't even have an actual backup centre and played Bass there. To this day I am just amazed we ended up with the 3rd best defense in the league given that Dwight and Quentyn Richardson were the only plus defenders in the rotation after the early season trades.
User avatar
GeorgeMarcus
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 17,931
And1: 23,045
Joined: Jun 17, 2006
     

Re: ‘11 Dwight Howard or ‘15 James Harden 

Post#11 » by GeorgeMarcus » Mon Aug 3, 2020 7:13 pm

No-more-rings wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:You say that like Nelson and Lewis were some mega stars or something.


They don't have to be megastars to justify my claim. A collection of high-end/well-fitting players does the trick just fine (see current Raptors, '15 Hawks, etc.) In the the case of Nelson/Lewis, they were both All-Star talents in their prime.

Most teams would need to sacrifice talent to surround Dwight with the kind of spacing he had in Orlando. They catered the roster to his abilities (as they should) but even still there isn't much evidence to suggest his impact was more pronounced than the guys I mentioned.

Lewis only played 25 games in 2011 and Jameer was nothing like an all star that year, 13ppg/6apg 15.4 PER, 1.1 BPM. Dwight still took them to 52 wins, 3rd ranked drtg and a still ok-ish offense. And Dwight's impact was so low that the Magic were arguably the worst team in the league their first year without him, 20 wins, 25th drtg, 27th ortg.

It sounds like you are going off of narratives, and not acknowledging how good Dwight really was.

Like Dwight didn't have more impact than Nelson and Lewis, seriously? You're too good of a poster to make such a ridiculous claim.


That sort of demonstrates my point though, or at least provides further evidence. They were off to a hot start with Lewis in '11 (comparable to the 59-win seasons leading up to it) and then regressed notably when he departed. Not only in the RS but also in the playoffs, where they lost in the first round after making the Finals/Conference Finals respectively.

I honestly feel like my argument is opposite to the narrative as far as Dwight is concerned. For a long time I bought into the idea that he was the juggernaut at the foundation of their success, until more and more evidence led me to believe that he was a good player among other good players. I'm not saying he wasn't the best on the team, but the gap isn't what people believe it to be.
The Legend of George Marcus

"Where I'm from, bullies get bullied." - Zach Randolph
No-more-rings
Head Coach
Posts: 7,053
And1: 3,850
Joined: Oct 04, 2018

Re: ‘11 Dwight Howard or ‘15 James Harden 

Post#12 » by No-more-rings » Mon Aug 3, 2020 8:00 pm

GeorgeMarcus wrote:
That sort of demonstrates my point though, or at least provides further evidence.


No it doesn't, not really. It doesn't disprove that Dwight was still the driving force behind that elite defense. Are you implying that Lewis was their defensive anchor?

GeorgeMarcus wrote:They were off to a hot start with Lewis in '11 (comparable to the 59-win seasons leading up to it) and then regressed notably when he departed. Not only in the RS but also in the playoffs, where they lost in the first round after making the Finals/Conference Finals respectively.


Would Lewis have changed the fact that mostly of their starters aside from Dwight shot putridly from the floor? Nelson, 37.8% from the floor, Turkoglu 29.4%, Jason Richardson 33.3%..JJ Reddick shot 1/15 from 3. Unless you think Rashard would've created massively better shots for these guys, your argument doesn't hold water.

GeorgeMarcus wrote:I honestly feel like my argument is opposite to the narrative as far as Dwight is concerned. For a long time I bought into the idea that he was the juggernaut at the foundation of their success, until more and more evidence led me to believe that he was a good player among other good players. I'm not saying he wasn't the best on the team, but the gap isn't what people believe it to be.

The evidence is there, you are either ignoring it or not looking hard enough.
User avatar
GeorgeMarcus
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 17,931
And1: 23,045
Joined: Jun 17, 2006
     

Re: ‘11 Dwight Howard or ‘15 James Harden 

Post#13 » by GeorgeMarcus » Mon Aug 3, 2020 8:48 pm

No-more-rings wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:
That sort of demonstrates my point though, or at least provides further evidence.


No it doesn't, not really. It doesn't disprove that Dwight was still the driving force behind that elite defense. Are you implying that Lewis was their defensive anchor?

GeorgeMarcus wrote:They were off to a hot start with Lewis in '11 (comparable to the 59-win seasons leading up to it) and then regressed notably when he departed. Not only in the RS but also in the playoffs, where they lost in the first round after making the Finals/Conference Finals respectively.


Would Lewis have changed the fact that mostly of their starters aside from Dwight shot putridly from the floor? Nelson, 37.8% from the floor, Turkoglu 29.4%, Jason Richardson 33.3%..JJ Reddick shot 1/15 from 3. Unless you think Rashard would've created massively better shots for these guys, your argument doesn't hold water.

GeorgeMarcus wrote:I honestly feel like my argument is opposite to the narrative as far as Dwight is concerned. For a long time I bought into the idea that he was the juggernaut at the foundation of their success, until more and more evidence led me to believe that he was a good player among other good players. I'm not saying he wasn't the best on the team, but the gap isn't what people believe it to be.

The evidence is there, you are either ignoring it or not looking hard enough.


Regarding your 1st quote: I'm not specifying offense or defense, I'm talking about cumulative impact.

During their Finals run in '09, Howard was dead last on the team in playoff RAPM (#154 overall). Lewis was best on the team and #16 overall. During the ECF run in '10, Howard was 2nd last on the team in playoff RAPM and #85 overall. Lewis was best on the team yet again and #1 overall. Dwight put up negative on/offs in 8/10 playoff runs including 4/5 in Orlando. Those numbers simply aren't compatible with his reputation, and it's not like his RS RAPMs are that impressive either.

What evidence are you referring to exactly? You know I won't be swayed by box stats or accolades :)
The Legend of George Marcus

"Where I'm from, bullies get bullied." - Zach Randolph
Statlanta
RealGM
Posts: 12,448
And1: 9,098
Joined: Mar 06, 2016

Re: ‘11 Dwight Howard or ‘15 James Harden 

Post#14 » by Statlanta » Mon Aug 3, 2020 11:43 pm

Bergmaniac wrote:We got to the Finals in 2009 without Jameer, he missed all of the Eastern Conference playoffs that season.

The 2011 team was basically Dwight and a bunch of role players most of whom were subpar defenders. J-Rich at this point of his career was a turnstyle on D and not that good on offence either without Nash feeding him the ball, Hedo was past it, Jameer shot well in the regular season, but he was never much of a playmaker and never a good defender, we didn't even have an actual backup centre and played Bass there. To this day I am just amazed we ended up with the 3rd best defense in the league given that Dwight and Quentyn Richardson were the only plus defenders in the rotation after the early season trades.

The fact that the team regressed while our "best player" got better kinda tells you something. The team was powered by the peaks of Turkoglu and Lewis. There were so many stats during that era where the Magic won games when the 3pt barrage was ongoing but were a average team when Dwight scored 30+.

As for this poll it's easily Harden. He proved to be the player Kevin Martin wasn't and actually did something for his team by winning a round.
East #1 Draft Picks: Fultz, Banchero, Wiggins, Cuninigham
West #1 Draft Picks: Edwards, WIlliamson, Ayton, Towns
User avatar
Joao Saraiva
RealGM
Posts: 13,007
And1: 5,809
Joined: Feb 09, 2011
   

Re: ‘11 Dwight Howard or ‘15 James Harden 

Post#15 » by Joao Saraiva » Tue Aug 4, 2020 1:26 am

As long as my team can rotate decently on defense, Dwight will make sure my team is among the best in the league in that regard.

As long as he accepts a role as more of a PnR guy (roll obviously) on offense, he'll help a lot.

Give me some decent spacing, playmaking and scoring and he makes the team very very dangerous.

Put that Dwight on Portland this year and they might go all the way.

I'm high on Dwight, higher than most here. I really believe his defense was special before injuries.
“These guys have been criticized the last few years for not getting to where we’re going, but I’ve always said that the most important thing in sports is to keep trying. Let this be an example of what it means to say it’s never over.” - Jerry Sloan
User avatar
Joao Saraiva
RealGM
Posts: 13,007
And1: 5,809
Joined: Feb 09, 2011
   

Re: ‘11 Dwight Howard or ‘15 James Harden 

Post#16 » by Joao Saraiva » Tue Aug 4, 2020 1:33 am

Statlanta wrote:
Bergmaniac wrote:We got to the Finals in 2009 without Jameer, he missed all of the Eastern Conference playoffs that season.

The 2011 team was basically Dwight and a bunch of role players most of whom were subpar defenders. J-Rich at this point of his career was a turnstyle on D and not that good on offence either without Nash feeding him the ball, Hedo was past it, Jameer shot well in the regular season, but he was never much of a playmaker and never a good defender, we didn't even have an actual backup centre and played Bass there. To this day I am just amazed we ended up with the 3rd best defense in the league given that Dwight and Quentyn Richardson were the only plus defenders in the rotation after the early season trades.

The fact that the team regressed while our "best player" got better kinda tells you something. The team was powered by the peaks of Turkoglu and Lewis. There were so many stats during that era where the Magic won games when the 3pt barrage was ongoing but were a average team when Dwight scored 30+.

As for this poll it's easily Harden. He proved to be the player Kevin Martin wasn't and actually did something for his team by winning a round.


Not that surprising at all. 3 points get you wins. When the shooters were on fire, it worked fine. Dwight scoring more might be the Magic forcing the issue cause nothing else was working from outside.

Still he could score and was useful on offense. However, it's on defense that you should really look to his impact.
“These guys have been criticized the last few years for not getting to where we’re going, but I’ve always said that the most important thing in sports is to keep trying. Let this be an example of what it means to say it’s never over.” - Jerry Sloan
Bergmaniac
Head Coach
Posts: 6,282
And1: 9,492
Joined: Jan 08, 2010
 

Re: ‘11 Dwight Howard or ‘15 James Harden 

Post#17 » by Bergmaniac » Tue Aug 4, 2020 2:25 pm

Statlanta wrote:
Bergmaniac wrote:We got to the Finals in 2009 without Jameer, he missed all of the Eastern Conference playoffs that season.

The 2011 team was basically Dwight and a bunch of role players most of whom were subpar defenders. J-Rich at this point of his career was a turnstyle on D and not that good on offence either without Nash feeding him the ball, Hedo was past it, Jameer shot well in the regular season, but he was never much of a playmaker and never a good defender, we didn't even have an actual backup centre and played Bass there. To this day I am just amazed we ended up with the 3rd best defense in the league given that Dwight and Quentyn Richardson were the only plus defenders in the rotation after the early season trades.

The fact that the team regressed while our "best player" got better kinda tells you something. The team was powered by the peaks of Turkoglu and Lewis. There were so many stats during that era where the Magic won games when the 3pt barrage was ongoing but were a average team when Dwight scored 30+.

Not much besides Otis Smith being a horrible GM. His trades in the 2010/11 season were absolutely awful, and his absurd overpay for Rashard few years earlier meant that when he declined physically we could only trade him for the post-injury Arenas who was one of the worst players in the league.

Our best team in that era was in 2010, when Turkoglu wasn't even in the roster.
User avatar
Clyde Frazier
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 19,848
And1: 25,243
Joined: Sep 07, 2010

Re: ‘11 Dwight Howard or ‘15 James Harden 

Post#18 » by Clyde Frazier » Tue Aug 4, 2020 10:56 pm

I'm much higher on '11 dwight than I am on prime dwight, similar to '03 mcgrady. He was flat out special that year defensively. It's close but i ultimately went with dwight.
slimreaper2021
Sophomore
Posts: 129
And1: 7
Joined: Jul 02, 2020

Re: ‘11 Dwight Howard or ‘15 James Harden 

Post#19 » by slimreaper2021 » Sun Aug 9, 2020 4:21 pm

2011 Dwight, His defensive impact was imsane

Return to Player Comparisons