Official 2020 NBA Draft Thread

[The Effect]

Minnesota fans seem to be on board with James Johnson, Culver, 17th pick for AG. We'd probably have to include Frazier to make the salaries work.

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If Weham is deadset on trading AG, i think this is the best deal we would get. This or Oubre, but i like this better because we get a 1st and culver is still on a rookie deal. Frazier isnt even a though in my head, i forget he was even on the team, so that literally has 0 effect on the trade

[MasterGMer]

Culver average 30% FG last season and 46% FT shooting. Why is it so intriguing about Culver?

[Knightro]

Culver > Oubre to me by a wide margin.

Three full years younger, cost controlled for much longer and arguably more impactful right now.

Culver -1.78 RPM in 1506 minutes
Oubre -3.05 RPM in 1933 minutes

[Knightro]

Culver average 30% FG last season and 46% FT shooting. Why is it so intriguing about Culver?

He shot 40% from the field, not 30%. He shot 30% from 3PT.

He didn't shoot it well, but he was a rookie making an adjustment. He wasn't bad at all on the glass or as a passer or especially defensively for a first-year player.

I think he has good upside still.

If he had played any better, there's zero chance they'd be looking to trade him.

[MasterGMer]

Culver average 30% FG last season and 46% FT shooting. Why is it so intriguing about Culver?

He shot 40% from the field, not 30%. He shot 30% from 3PT.

He didn't shoot it well, but he was a rookie making an adjustment. He wasn't bad at all on the glass or as a passer or especially defensively for a first-year player.

I think he has good upside still.

If he had played any better, there's zero chance they'd be looking to trade him.

Then what will you do with 15th and 17th FRP? Would you move up?

[Knightro]

Culver average 30% FG last season and 46% FT shooting. Why is it so intriguing about Culver?

He shot 40% from the field, not 30%. He shot 30% from 3PT.

He didn't shoot it well, but he was a rookie making an adjustment. He wasn't bad at all on the glass or as a passer or especially defensively for a first-year player.

I think he has good upside still.

If he had played any better, there's zero chance they'd be looking to trade him.

Then what will you do with 15th and 17th FRP? Would you move up?

They could do anything.

Take two players.

Move up.

Take a player and take a stash player.

[Def Swami]

I think in most seasons, a trade of Gordon for a top 5 pick would be asinine. This is a bit of an unusual draft. There's no consensus top 3 in the draft. There's no home run pick. Odds are, the player drafted may not be more talented or valuable than Gordon. The top 2 teams in the draft this year are both trying to make the playoffs next year.

In the case of the Warriors, any trade with them would assuredly require taking back Wiggins' mammoth contract. It's still one of the worst contracts in the league. There's some rationale for Gordon + Bamba for Wiggins + #2. Gordon is a better, more valuable player on a much cheaper contract than Wiggins. The move could save the Warriors a huge tax bill. And Gordon helps them win games tomorrow, unlike Wiggins or the #2 pick. I think it's a rather unique situation that poses an interesting possibility. A lot that has to do with the diminished value of the #2 pick in a weak draft and where the Warriors happen to be with their cap flexibility and aspirations.

So what is your opinion?

Let’s say Edwards is off the board and Golden State calls you, Def Swami, and offers you the #2 overall pick + Wiggins for AG + Bamba (+ fillers as needed).

... do you take it and if so, who do you select?

Spoiler:

It's tough. I'm not sure I have settled on one yet for this hypothetical scenario. I lean toward accepting this deal and taking James Wiseman. Having a crack at the #2 pick, getting a player on a rookie salary and having control of that player's contract for about 8 years is valuable. I'd imagine Weltman and Hammond and their scouting staff would relish the opportunity to pick what they would believe to be the 1st or 2nd best player in this draft. At that point, you give them the pick of the litter and tell them to earn their pay check and find the future all-star. It's all about raising the ceiling of the team. Trying to find high end talent that has all-NBA potential. And I think going to the draft gives us a better shot at that than holding steady with Gordon (as much as I really like him as a player).

Taking on the Wiggins contract could be a killer though. It's a real problem. And that's the real sticking point. Maybe the change of scenery and playing under Clifford helps develop his game and gets him to buy in on defense. There's no reason he shouldn't be an A1 defender. This is my main issue with this deal. You could ask me 2 hours from now about this whole deal and I'd probably change my mind and say we should abort.

Personally, I'm really down on most of the top players in this draft. There's a couple things about Anthony Edwards game that scares me. One being his questionable motor, and two being his pretty poor shooting percentages. Three being him not really being a playmaker (oddly, sounds similar to Wiggins). LaMelo Ball's inability to shoot is also concerning.

Wiseman is a behemoth of a human. He's huge at 7'1" and 235 lbs. And he's really quick and agile for his size. I think he should have good potential as a defensive anchor and there's some potential with his soft touch around the basket for his offensive game to develop. His motor and energy level is unquestionable. I'd bank on him to figure out being the best version of himself and his physical attributes give his career a steady floor. I don't think he's going to be the lengthy project that Mo Bamba is proving to be. And I think (strong emphasis on think) he might have the highest upside among the Ball, Edwards, Wiseman trio.

At the same time, I actually think the real value in the draft is somewhere in the middle of the first round, squarely where we are. I really like guys like Aaron Nesmith, Devin Vassell, and Kira Lewis Jr. I won't be surprised if the best player from the draft comes from outside the top 10.

Spoiler:

My other hesitancy with this deal is Bamba. My gut tells me that Mo Bamba is not going to be the player that James Wiseman will be. At the same time, we've seen so little of him over 2 seasons that I don't have a great sense of what his realistic ceiling is. There's a world where Bamba actually puts it all together as a defender and 3 point shooter and becomes an extremely valuable player in the league. I wish I had seen more from Bamba. At the same time, maybe how little we've seen is an indication of how good he is.

And just because we draft Wiseman doesn't mean I think we need to trade Vucevic ASAP. I think the Magic have to use their assets wisely. If they move Vucevic, it needs to be for good, young wing players that would compliment this team. If there's a good deal to be made, then we should take it. But, I wouldn't feel any pressure to just trade Vucevic for the sake of it to open up playing time for Wiseman. Wiseman is 19 years old and his time will come. If he needs to come off the bench for a season, then that's okay. If he proves to be really good and Vucevic expendable, then that will naturally play out. Bamba never did that. I do believe that the best way to develop young players is in a winning context and if the team wants to maintain some competitiveness next season by starting Fultz/Fournier/Wiggins/Okeke/Vucevic, with a bench of Ross, Lewis Jr., and Wiseman, then that's fine.

I've always thought that there is a middle ground the front office can play where they don't tear the whole team down, but make a move that improves the long term ceiling of the team. So I wouldn't make this move with the intention of going into a full rebuild. But, if the Magic wanted to, then trading Vucevic and starting Wiseman would be one way to kick start it.

As a follow up, I also wouldn't be opposed to taking Devin Vassell or Aaron Nesmith as high as #2. That's not me saying they have some sort of all-star upside. I just think they're better players than they're being ranked right now. I really don't see the appeal of LaMelo Ball. And I think the impression of Killian Hayes is better than his actual game.

This is where I could see the Magic simply trying to move up just to get a guy they really like, like Vassell, for instance. And they might not have to trade the house and move all the way up to #2. Maybe make a minor move to move up a few spots to get their guy. Or make that Wolves trade instead (Gordon for Culver + #17), and use #15 and #17 to move up into the top 10 and get the player they like. That might be a better use of assets.

[basketballRob]

Culver average 30% FG last season and 46% FT shooting. Why is it so intriguing about Culver?

He was closer to a 40% 3 pt shooter the last 3 months.

Early in the season they had him playing PG which isn't his natural position.

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[cedric76]

We r not trading for wiggins

[pepe1991]

I still don't see why so much hype about Culver .
He is shooting guard who can't shoot from any range. And i mean anyyy range.
He can't even finish around rim at some high level.
Mid range game- crap.
3 ball- horrific.
Efficiency- painful
Advanced stats- paaaiiiiin.
Win share- negative ( does that make his lose or tank share positive ? )

On top of that he can't even shoot damn free throws.

Don't get too hyped about assists, his ratio is almost 1 to 1 and he menaged to collect 30 more personal fouls than assists. Matter of fact he had more fouls than FTs. And his 3 ball sample size isn't that small. 221 shot.

My biggest issue with him is that he really never showed in NBA that he can be anything more than terrible spot up shooter. And his shot relise is SLOOOOW so even his only "strenght" really isn't strenght at all.

Next year around,he will turn 22 ( in February). He isn't even that young.

Only "positive" thing about him is, that he, much like Bamba , was high lottery pick. ( both 6th picks, that slot is cursed, in last 16 years only 2 players drafted 6th were allstars, LIllard and Roy, one retired at 25 ). But that really,really, REALLY doesn't mean he is some high value young player with some upside ( just like Bamba).

For SG spot i use Okogie pepe-metric- Okogie is terrible basketball player without any basketball skills other than high motor and desire ( like a boxer who keeps getting K.O.ed yet always stands up for more ). If you are not better SG than Okogie, you are trash at playing basketball at this level. Culver is not even close to Okogie.


I mean there is some thiny little chance that Culver has some basketball upside that he menaged to hide for last 10 years. But i would not bet on that. Players don't go from this level of garbage to good players,especially on guard positions in NBA fast. Or at all. Just like Lonzo had horrific rookie year, bit better second, but by the third year it was clear as a day that his objectiv ceiling is nba mediocrity that probably has no value on contending teams for years to come.

[MagicFan101]

So what is your opinion?

Let’s say Edwards is off the board and Golden State calls you, Def Swami, and offers you the #2 overall pick + Wiggins for AG + Bamba (+ fillers as needed).

... do you take it and if so, who do you select?

Spoiler:

It's tough. I'm not sure I have settled on one yet for this hypothetical scenario. I lean toward accepting this deal and taking James Wiseman. Having a crack at the #2 pick, getting a player on a rookie salary and having control of that player's contract for about 8 years is valuable. I'd imagine Weltman and Hammond and their scouting staff would relish the opportunity to pick what they would believe to be the 1st or 2nd best player in this draft. At that point, you give them the pick of the litter and tell them to earn their pay check and find the future all-star. It's all about raising the ceiling of the team. Trying to find high end talent that has all-NBA potential. And I think going to the draft gives us a better shot at that than holding steady with Gordon (as much as I really like him as a player).

Taking on the Wiggins contract could be a killer though. It's a real problem. And that's the real sticking point. Maybe the change of scenery and playing under Clifford helps develop his game and gets him to buy in on defense. There's no reason he shouldn't be an A1 defender. This is my main issue with this deal. You could ask me 2 hours from now about this whole deal and I'd probably change my mind and say we should abort.

Personally, I'm really down on most of the top players in this draft. There's a couple things about Anthony Edwards game that scares me. One being his questionable motor, and two being his pretty poor shooting percentages. Three being him not really being a playmaker (oddly, sounds similar to Wiggins). LaMelo Ball's inability to shoot is also concerning.

Wiseman is a behemoth of a human. He's huge at 7'1" and 235 lbs. And he's really quick and agile for his size. I think he should have good potential as a defensive anchor and there's some potential with his soft touch around the basket for his offensive game to develop. His motor and energy level is unquestionable. I'd bank on him to figure out being the best version of himself and his physical attributes give his career a steady floor. I don't think he's going to be the lengthy project that Mo Bamba is proving to be. And I think (strong emphasis on think) he might have the highest upside among the Ball, Edwards, Wiseman trio.

At the same time, I actually think the real value in the draft is somewhere in the middle of the first round, squarely where we are. I really like guys like Aaron Nesmith, Devin Vassell, and Kira Lewis Jr. I won't be surprised if the best player from the draft comes from outside the top 10.

Spoiler:

My other hesitancy with this deal is Bamba. My gut tells me that Mo Bamba is not going to be the player that James Wiseman will be. At the same time, we've seen so little of him over 2 seasons that I don't have a great sense of what his realistic ceiling is. There's a world where Bamba actually puts it all together as a defender and 3 point shooter and becomes an extremely valuable player in the league. I wish I had seen more from Bamba. At the same time, maybe how little we've seen is an indication of how good he is.

And just because we draft Wiseman doesn't mean I think we need to trade Vucevic ASAP. I think the Magic have to use their assets wisely. If they move Vucevic, it needs to be for good, young wing players that would compliment this team. If there's a good deal to be made, then we should take it. But, I wouldn't feel any pressure to just trade Vucevic for the sake of it to open up playing time for Wiseman. Wiseman is 19 years old and his time will come. If he needs to come off the bench for a season, then that's okay. If he proves to be really good and Vucevic expendable, then that will naturally play out. Bamba never did that. I do believe that the best way to develop young players is in a winning context and if the team wants to maintain some competitiveness next season by starting Fultz/Fournier/Wiggins/Okeke/Vucevic, with a bench of Ross, Lewis Jr., and Wiseman, then that's fine.

I've always thought that there is a middle ground the front office can play where they don't tear the whole team down, but make a move that improves the long term ceiling of the team. So I wouldn't make this move with the intention of going into a full rebuild. But, if the Magic wanted to, then trading Vucevic and starting Wiseman would be one way to kick start it.

As a follow up, I also wouldn't be opposed to taking Devin Vassell or Aaron Nesmith as high as #2. That's not me saying they have some sort of all-star upside. I just think they're better players than they're being ranked right now. I really don't see the appeal of LaMelo Ball. And I think the impression of Killian Hayes is better than his actual game.

This is where I could see the Magic simply trying to move up just to get a guy they really like, like Vassell, for instance. And they might not have to trade the house and move all the way up to #2. Maybe make a minor move to move up a few spots to get their guy. Or make that Wolves trade instead (Gordon for Culver + #17), and use #15 and #17 to move up into the top 10 and get the player they like. That might be a better use of assets.

If management agrees, then perhaps a team like the Knicks at #8 makes for a better trade partner?

We get Vassell without taking back Wiggins and they get AG after missing out on a top pick.

[drsd]

Then what will you do with 15th and 17th FRP? Would you move up?

As there is less than a ZERO percent change the Magic will carry three rookie next season, that's why this trade makes no sense.

What makes more sense is Orlando trading out of the draft entirely.

[drsd]

If management agrees, then perhaps a team like the Knicks at #8 makes for a better trade partner?

We get Vassell without taking back Wiggins and they get AG after missing out on a top pick.

I am assuming that the outcome for Orlando would be Gordon and #15 for Wiggins and #8. This is actually sounding a bit doable to me. Devin Vassell as a 3 and D SG makes a lot of sense with the #8.

Assuming Ennis and Fournier opt in, the Magic starts as:


Fultz
Fournier/Ross/Vassell
Wiggins/Okeke
Aminu/Ennis
Vučević/Bamba/Birch


The FA market would start with Clark and Carter-Williams. Augustin could be resigned if he would go for a two year vet deal, but I think he might find more than that. Iwundu is similar. Frazier is gone.

So our 2020(1)/21 Orlando Magic could simply be:
Fultz/Augustin/Carter-Williams
Fournier/Ross/Vassell
Wiggins/Okeke
Aminu/Ennis/Clark
Vučević/Bamba/Birch

I think that is fine as the 2021 off-season will have Isaac back, and Fournier and Ennis gone. There will be a major roster shuffle.


..

[MagicFan101]

If management agrees, then perhaps a team like the Knicks at #8 makes for a better trade partner?

We get Vassell without taking back Wiggins and they get AG after missing out on a top pick.

I am assuming that the outcome for Orlando would be Gordon and #15 for Wiggins and #8. This is actually sounding a bit doable to me. Devin Vassell as a 3 and D SG makes a lot of sense with the #8.

Huh? Wiggins doesn’t play for the Knicks. Are you suggesting a 3 team deal? You need to propose the full details. What else are the Knicks giving up. I don’t see it.

[cedric76]

If Edwards os available at 2

Would you do

Wiggins +2 for vuc + our pick?

If we do that Evan would optout for sure

Fultz, mcw
Edwards, ross
Wiggins, chuma
Ag, isaac, chief
Mo, birch


Tbh i don't think it makes us any better

I d rather trade for culver+Johnson +17 for AG

And use Evan as a trading chip

Fultz
Culver, ross
Chuma, Ennis
Isaac, chief
Vuc, mo, birch

Use 16 +17 to strike gold

[Knightro]

I still don't see why so much hype about Culver .
He is shooting guard who can't shoot from any range. And i mean anyyy range.
He can't even finish around rim at some high level.
Mid range game- crap.
3 ball- horrific.
Efficiency- painful
Advanced stats- paaaiiiiin.
Win share- negative ( does that make his lose or tank share positive ? )

On top of that he can't even shoot damn free throws.

Don't get too hyped about assists, his ratio is almost 1 to 1 and he menaged to collect 30 more personal fouls than assists. Matter of fact he had more fouls than FTs. And his 3 ball sample size isn't that small. 221 shot.

My biggest issue with him is that he really never showed in NBA that he can be anything more than terrible spot up shooter. And his shot relise is SLOOOOW so even his only "strenght" really isn't strenght at all.

Next year around,he will turn 22 ( in February). He isn't even that young.

Only "positive" thing about him is, that he, much like Bamba , was high lottery pick. ( both 6th picks, that slot is cursed, in last 16 years only 2 players drafted 6th were allstars, LIllard and Roy, one retired at 25 ). But that really,really, REALLY doesn't mean he is some high value young player with some upside ( just like Bamba).

For SG spot i use Okogie pepe-metric- Okogie is terrible basketball player without any basketball skills other than high motor and desire ( like a boxer who keeps getting K.O.ed yet always stands up for more ). If you are not better SG than Okogie, you are trash at playing basketball at this level. Culver is not even close to Okogie.

I mean there is some thiny little chance that Culver has some basketball upside that he menaged to hide for last 10 years. But i would not bet on that. Players don't go from this level of garbage to good players,especially on guard positions in NBA fast. Or at all. Just like Lonzo had horrific rookie year, bit better second, but by the third year it was clear as a day that his objectiv ceiling is nba mediocrity that probably has no value on contending teams for years to come.

So you think the entire draft class last year outside of about 3 guys is going to be terrible then right? Because most of the guys who got on the floor last year were even less impactful than Culver was. I laid out the RPM numbers from the entire first round a couple of pages ago.

This reminds me a good bit of when you were destroying Trae Young during his rookie year when me and several others were trying to tell you that his overall rookie year numbers were being submarined by a historically awful start, but that he had made tangible improvements over the course of the season.

I'm not saying Culver is Trae Young by any means, but there was clear positive progression during his rookie year.

He got off to a really terrible start with a comically bad .418 TS% with an offensive rating of 88 over the first 30ish games.

But over his last 30ish games he looked better .514 TS% which is still low overall, but more in like of what you'd expect out of a rookie with an offensive rating of 98.

If you want to go even deeper than that... from February on his TS% is up to .529 and his ORTG improved to 101.

If you want to go even deeper than that... over his last 10 games his TS% was .589 and his ORTG was 111.

Simply put, he was playing his best basketball of the season when things were shut down due to COVID. Sometimes rookies, no matter what age they are, simply need a little bit of time to adjust.

He's a guy I would absolutely be willing to gamble on development wise.

[Skybox]

If Edwards os available at 2

Would you do

Wiggins +2 for vuc + our pick?

If we do that Evan would optout for sure

Fultz, mcw
Edwards, ross
Wiggins, chuma
Ag, isaac, chief
Mo, birch


Tbh i don't think it makes us any better

I d rather trade for culver+Johnson +17 for AG

And use Evan as a trading chip

Fultz
Culver, ross
Chuma, Ennis
Isaac, chief
Vuc, mo, birch

Use 16 +17 to strike gold

I don’t think Evan opts out for any reason other than an unlikely multi-year strong offer from one of the very few teams like ATL with money to burn. He could opt in to be traded but not leaving that money on the table with post-COVID-19 cap uncertainty. This pandemic is nowhere near over and will likely have long lasting revenue effects on nba

[drsd]

If management agrees, then perhaps a team like the Knicks at #8 makes for a better trade partner?

We get Vassell without taking back Wiggins and they get AG after missing out on a top pick.

I am assuming that the outcome for Orlando would be Gordon and #15 for Wiggins and #8. This is actually sounding a bit doable to me. Devin Vassell as a 3 and D SG makes a lot of sense with the #8.

Huh? Wiggins doesn’t play for the Knicks. Are you suggesting a 3 team deal? You need to propose the full details. What else are the Knicks giving up. I don’t see it.

Yes the narrative was around Orlando getting the 17 and then bundling that with the 15 for the 8. The net consequence for Orlando (ignoring all other teams) of the long trade narrative led to Gordon and #15 for Wiggins and #8.


Frankly, I kind of like this. Orlando is gonna make their "big move" in the 2021 off-season. That allows for a Fultz / Wiggins / Isaac / Vučević roster with player-X that is acquired from Fournier and Ennis co-expirings to play two years together with. With an Ross, Okeke and Mr #8 as side-kicks. And Bamba might get better.


..

[drsd]

If Edwards os available at 2

Would you do

Wiggins +2 for vuc + our pick?

We all assume the Warriors would want Gordon, but Vučević would be an even better fit for the San Fran Warriors.

Would "we" do this. THat's tough. The central premise is that a future would be built around Fultz/Wiggins/Gordon/Issac/Bamba. That is a really awkward starting five in my option, even assuming Bamba grows in to value. And that Edwards emerges as an eventual starter.
I guess one could argue that Gordon could still be traded, but if #2 is Edwards, then the trade would be Gordon for a deeper bench.
What is good about this thought line is that it is a retool over a tank. And it allows Edwards to develop as a bench player, and I wis more teams would take high lottery players more slowly.

I would think this is a no from an Orlando perspective.

[Knightro]

We all assume the Warriors would want Gordon, but Vučević would be an even better fit for the San Fran Warriors.

Would "we" do this. THat's tough. The central premise is that a future would be built around Fultz/Wiggins/Gordon/Issac/Bamba. That is a really awkward starting five in my option, even assuming Bamba grows in to value. And that Edwards emerges as an eventual starter.

I guess one could argue that Gordon could still be traded, but if #2 is Edwards, then the trade would be Gordon for a deeper bench.
What is good about this thought line is that it is a retool over a tank. And it allows Edwards to develop as a bench player, and I wis more teams would take high lottery players more slowly.

I would think this is a no from an Orlando perspective.

I would imagine that if the Magic sent out Vucevic in a trade for the No. 2 pick, they would select Wiseman.

I think if Minnesota keeps the No. 1 pick, they're taking Edwards.