Player Rnkings Celtics vs Raptors series

[binjumper]

Raptors and Celtics fans should not be allowed to comment on this thread.

[SmartWentCrazy]

A simple average of the four major all-around impact stats - PIPM, RPM, BPM, RAPTOR - ranks Tatum 14th at 4.28 and Lowry 18th at 3.80 this year, with Lowry getting a marginally tougher workload. Basically a pick'em this year.

Though some might argue that Lowry has some extra intangibles that are a bit tough to quantify.



Now again, if you are using these advanced stats to support Tatum being numero uno in this series, please be advised that you will need to drop Brown well down the list using these same stats, which have him racking up 0.88 ---- marginally ahead of OG at 0.63, and well behind Norm at 1.66 (and with only a marginally heavier workload than either of them).

The problem with advanced stats when using younger players is that they assume the average performance over the period is representative of the players performance. However, when you have a player who is still ascending, the average over the period tends to lag behind the current performance.

I also dont think its wrong to have Siakam and Lowry and others above Brown. I just think its pretty clear that Tatum is better than Lowry.

being young does make for a nice narrative, but young players go through hot and cold streaks too. it's not just a steady ride up. Tatum likely won't keep shooting 48% from 3pt land like he has since the bubble started.

I mean, over his last 50+ games including the playoffs he’s shooting 42%+ from deep and is a career 40%+ 3 point shooter. I think its fair to say he’s a damn good shooter and has shown tremendous growth this year.

[chrisab123]

You can break it down into tiers if you want.

Tatum (undisputed #1 in this series)

Lowry Siakam (If Lowry is healthy he's in this tier. If not he certainly gets dropped down)

Jaylen/Walker/FVV (if Lowry is banged up throw him in the 2nd tier)

Smart/OG/Gasol

Then you have Powell Ibaka Theis etc...

The 2nd and 3rd tiers are very fluid outside of Siakam. A lot of this series is going to depend on health but it should be a really entertaining 6 or 7 games. The team with the best player usually wins which is probably why Boston is slightly favored in Vegas. Jaylen Brown could also end up being in my 2nd tier very easily. He's become criminally underrated.

[LuckyLeprechaun]

being young does make for a nice narrative, but young players go through hot and cold streaks too. it's not just a steady ride up. Tatum likely won't keep shooting 48% from 3pt land like he has since the bubble started.

Maybe not 48% but he is a career 40% 3 pt shooters so he isn't likely to regress much from that 48% number.

[everdiso]

being young does make for a nice narrative, but young players go through hot and cold streaks too. it's not just a steady ride up. Tatum likely won't keep shooting 48% from 3pt land like he has since the bubble started.

Maybe not 48% but he is a career 40% 3 pt shooters so he isn't likely to regress much from that 48% number.

8% would make a very large difference.

[BenoUdrihFTL]

Man Hayward being out really hurts Boston here, not only because his absence significantly diminishes Boston's depth, but also because I suspect his presence and playmaking fit elevates the other Celtics offensive weapons (Tatum, Kemba, Brown). With Hayward, I think Boston takes this in 6 and Tatum is the clear best player in the series. Without Hayward, I can see this become a more grinding series that Toronto takes in 7 and Lowry can be argued as the series' best player because that playstyle really favors him

[illuminati666]

Lol terrible list, this is act how it should go:

Tatum
Lowry
Siakam
Kemba
FVV
Brown
Powell
Smart
Ibaka
OG
Gasol
TD
Theis

[illuminati666]

You can break it down into tiers if you want.

Tatum (undisputed #1 in this series)

Lowry Siakam (If Lowry is healthy he's in this tier. If not he certainly gets dropped down)

Jaylen/Walker/FVV (if Lowry is banged up throw him in the 2nd tier)

Smart/OG/Gasol

Then you have Powell Ibaka Theis etc...

The 2nd and 3rd tiers are very fluid outside of Siakam. A lot of this series is going to depend on health but it should be a really entertaining 6 or 7 games. The team with the best player usually wins which is probably why Boston is slightly favored in Vegas. Jaylen Brown could also end up being in my 2nd tier very easily. He's become criminally underrated.

I have Tatum over Siakam and Lowry but by small margins, I would say Tatum Siakam and Lowry are all tier 1.
Tier 2: FVV and Kemba
Tier 3: Brown, Powell, Smart, Ibaka
Tier 4: Gasol, OG, Theis, TD

[TdotRap4Lyfe]

Fred will feast on Kemba offensively and defensively. They better play Smart on him otherwise, he will terrorize them all night long.

[LuckyLeprechaun]

being young does make for a nice narrative, but young players go through hot and cold streaks too. it's not just a steady ride up. Tatum likely won't keep shooting 48% from 3pt land like he has since the bubble started.

Maybe not 48% but he is a career 40% 3 pt shooters so he isn't likely to regress much from that 48% number.

8% would make a very large difference.

On 7 3s a game that Tatum averages 8% would mean Tatum goes from making 3.3 to 3.0. So one out of 3 games he makes 1 less 3. Maybe the series is decided by Tatum missing 2 extra 3s in 7 games. Maybe not.

[Vampirate]

Yes it is and Tatum is amazing defensively and Celtics stats go down when Tatum off the court

He's no better than Kyle Lowry defensively, and he certainly can't orchestrate a defense like Kyle can. The Raptors also do worse without Kyle on the floor, not that that isn't true of all good players.

The Celtics aren’t just better with him on the court, they go from the 2nd best net rating in basketball with him in, to a bottom 5 team with him off the floor. And yeah, he is absolutely better than Lowry defensively, elite wing defenders are more valuable than elite defensive guards. I think most have a good idea of how high I am on Lowry, but Tatum is definitely the better player at this point.

Tatum
Lowry
Siakam
Kemba
VanVleet
Jaylen
Smart
Powell
Ibaka
Gasol
Theis
OG

Honestly, after Tatum it gets quite a bit murky and it's kinda hard to figure out where Brown is in the pecking order.

Mine might go

Tatum

Lowry

Brown - Celtic fans putting Kemba at #2 are overrating Kemba, but the Celtics might have the 3rd best player though imo

Siakam - He's this high on Rep really but his stock has really fallen

FVV - Giving FVV the nod here as he's more of a complete package at this point over Walker, but I understand walker is the more well known commodity

Kemba -All Star scorer, but he's being overrated by Celtic fans
Powell - Quietly probably the best player on either's bench, can defend AND score efficiently

Gasol - At this point he's the center version of Smart without the flops, he's there for defense, defense and a good passing game

Smart - Basically a Lowry that cannot shoot, been known to shut down scorers

OG - Probably our 2nd or 3rd best defender, good 3pt shot, but dodgy FT shooter

Ibaka - There for Mismatches

Theis - Decent roll player (I don't know that much about him honestly)

Davis - Excellent year for the bench player and is having a great playoffs but it's only been a year.

Matt Thomas - He shoots 3s and he shoots them well, again, it's only been a year.

[Roco14]

Jason Tatum
Kyle Lowry
Pascal Siakam
Kemba Walker
Fred VanVleet
Jaylen Brown
Serge Ibaka
Norman Powell
Marcus Smart
OG Anunoby

Probably the most accurate list so far. Crazy to think that OG is near the bottom when he's a really solid starter in this league.

[bisme37]

Why?

I'm fairly certain your answer is going to come down to 4-6 ppg and somewhat better efficiency, and a supposed reputation of being a better defender. If that's all, you're dead wrong.

In fact, I just checked and Kyle has the significantly better DPM. Kyle even has higher win shares and a noticeably higher win shares per/48. I don't see what Jayson Tatum provides that can outweigh what Kyle does from a team perspective.

I've kinda been wanting to ask you... do you watch Celtics games? Like, more than just maybe turning them on for a few minutes and then checking to see who won?

I know you watch Raps games and you're deservedly really high on your team and players. But when making a comparison between the Raps and Celts you rarely say things about the Celtics that ring true to me as someone who watches the Celtics. (I watch the Raps a lot too btw, really enjoy them.)

We know your team and players are really good. That doesn't make the other team and their players not good.

Of course I watched some Celtics games this year. Tatum took a big leap after Christmas it seemed, in particular, he increased his shooting volume and usage while retaining good percentages. He's the better scorer you won't get an argument from me there. The defense was solid, but it didn't stick out the way lots of people seem to think it does, and the stats back me up on that. There were, however, several games where Tatum got a key steals or forced turnovers in the last couple minutes and sometimes on the last possession, and that some of these occurrences happened against high-profile wing players, and that seems to have stuck in people's minds.

I could ask you the same question but it wouldn't even mean the same thing unless you were watching just Kyle the entire time. He does so many things like directing the defense, drawing fouls, deflections, taking charges, recognizing and exploiting mismatch, setting up his teammates (Serge Ibaka's career year would never happen without the two-man game he developed with Kyle), leading during timeouts, keeping the team at an even keel, running the offense in general, and of course, his big plays in big moments - and that's without seeing what he does at practice and in the locker room. He truly is an extension of the coaching staff on the floor.

It's not as noticeable as Tatum's threes, or smooth drives to the bucket, or his affinity for clutch jumpers, but put together it does make a bigger impact on winning. Jayson Tatum is a great, great young player. He's undeniably talented and he could very well have a better career than Kyle Lowry. One day soon he will be a better player than Kyle Lowry, but not today, and not this season.

OK man I appreciate the answer. I don't agree but that's fine. Mostly I was just wondering if you think Lowry is better than Tatum simply because you only watch one of them play, or if you've actually seen them both and still feel that way. I don't think you're going to find much agreement from anyone else on Earth but I respect that you're backing your guy.

[BigTrade92]

Oh look, Raptors fans overrating their guys and Celtics fans overrating theirs.

What a doozy of a thread....

[SFour]

You can break it down into tiers if you want.

Tatum (undisputed #1 in this series)

Lowry Siakam (If Lowry is healthy he's in this tier. If not he certainly gets dropped down)

Jaylen/Walker/FVV (if Lowry is banged up throw him in the 2nd tier)

Smart/OG/Gasol

Then you have Powell Ibaka Theis etc...

The 2nd and 3rd tiers are very fluid outside of Siakam. A lot of this series is going to depend on health but it should be a really entertaining 6 or 7 games. The team with the best player usually wins which is probably why Boston is slightly favored in Vegas. Jaylen Brown could also end up being in my 2nd tier very easily. He's become criminally underrated.

you're underrated Powell & Ibaka....they are starter level players

Powell - 16p / 3.7 r / 1.8 a, 40% 3pt shooting on 5.3 attempts
Ibaka - 15.4p / 8.2r / 1.4a , 39% 3pt shooting on 3.3 attempts


offensively they're both better than Smart/OG/Gasol

also the Celtics aren't slightly favoured in Vegas...it's the Raptors (-155)

[mcgrady_1]

If the Celtics still had Hayward, whoever Vanvleet would've guarded would be the person they'd give the ball to a lot because that would be the mismatch, like JJ Redick on Jaylen in 2018 ECSF.

Now he's probably going to be on Smart, so not much of a mismatch. Celtics are going to miss Hayward offensively pretty badly in this series.

Pretty much why I see this as a 6 game series at best. Hayward gets hurt at the worst time SMFH

Raptors are still going to have their hands full on defense though.

For example, the Celtics ran that double ball screen with Kemba about 1000 times against Toronto during the regular season, and from what I've seen, they've yet to figure out how to guard it since Gasol and Ibaka drop so far, and if you double, guys like Timelord and Theis were left wide open for layups (this happened a lot in the seeding game). In the first matchup, the Celtics ran it again and again and Toronto had no hope of stopping it.

Plays like that are going to work regardless of Hayward being in or not.

Killed the Sixers with it. Killed the Raptors with it non stop and Toronto just let it happen over and over. But that is why I have a feeling Nurse just let it happen all game. His adjustments are one of his strengths.

If it happens again, then there is definitely something wrong and the series might not be as competitive as us Raps fans think it will be.

[Par36]

Jayson Tatum
Kyle Lowry
Pascal Siakam
Kemba Walker
Fred VanVleet
Jaylen Brown
Serge Ibaka
Marcus Smart
OG Anunoby( best defensive player in the series)
Norman Powell
Marc Gasol

Depth is hugely in the favor if the Raptors, double down on it with Hayward out

[Par36]

Oh look, Raptors fans overrating their guys and Celtics fans overrating theirs.

What a doozy of a thread....

Feel free to point out who's getting overrated.

[bisme37]

Raptors and Celtics fans should not be allowed to comment on this thread.

Then we'd just end up with a bunch of comments from people who really don't watch either team and don't realize they have no idea what they're talking about.

[Dutchball97]

Based on media narrative:

1. Tatum
2. Siakam
3. Walker
4. Brown
5. Hayward (inj)
6. Lowry
7. Van Vleet
8. Smart
9. Ibaka
10. Powell

We will see after this series if Boston truly has all those ALL-STAR caliber players.

Why would Lowry be below Brown and Hayward in media narrative when he made the All-Star team and they didn't? Don't take on a fake victim role.

Brown more versatile defender and Hayward a better shooter.

OG Anunoby is a more versatile defender than Lowry and he has shot significantly better than Lowry as well this season. Still doesn't make him better than Lowry in the eyes of the media or anyone here.

The Raptors are the reigning champs and have the deepest team in the league. What more do you need?