2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th!

[TheSuzerain]

If Haliburton is George Hill + some passing/vision, you take that at #4 all day. That's a really good player, and one that is useful in every conceivable team-build.

That’s the broader discussion that is interesting. This Bulls team should not take a slightly better George Hill type if that was the guarantee, for good or bad. It makes more sense to strike out than get a starting caliber guard.

This team needs stars or needs to rebuild. Contracts are starting to come up and injuries aside, this is not a second round roster at this point.

But perhaps you’re already all in on a rebuild.

Note: I’m not trying to say that’s his ceiling, just locking him in for purposes of the discussion about how to draft.

I am of the opinion that we need to rebuild. I know it sucks because we've sucked for several years now and are supposed to be coming out the other side, but it simply didn't work.

If your team needs stars and contracts are starting to come up, that's a pretty clear sign the rebuild utterly failed, and you're pretty much at square 1.

Give me Hali or Hayes.

[TheSuzerain]

If Haliburton is George Hill + some passing/vision, you take that at #4 all day. That's a really good player, and one that is useful in every conceivable team-build.

That’s the broader discussion that is interesting. This Bulls team should not take a slightly better George Hill type if that was the guarantee, for good or bad. It makes more sense to strike out than get a starting caliber guard.

This team needs stars or needs to rebuild. Contracts are starting to come up and injuries aside, this is not a second round roster at this point.

But perhaps you’re already all in on a rebuild.

Note: I’m not trying to say that’s his ceiling, just locking him in for purposes of the discussion about how to draft.

I am of the opinion that we need to rebuild. I know it sucks because we've sucked for several years now and are supposed to be coming out the other side, but it simply didn't work.

If your team needs stars and contracts are starting to come up, that's a pretty clear sign the rebuild utterly failed, and you're pretty much at square 1.

Give me Hali or Hayes.

[MrSparkle]

I think he'll be better then DLo

Watch on YouTube

Wow, that is a great breakdown. I’m even more impressed with Hayes than I was before. I urge everyone to take a look at this video. Thanks Hrv

Actually, as I watch more of Hayes, he makes me think of Manu, especially the way he passes, but also his step-back and moves in the paint.

His handles are actually really weird. Very unorthodox, almost awkward looking. Yet he never really seems out of control or like he's improvising his way in and out of trouble; rather he has very good fundamentals and awareness with the ball. He does look dominant-hand reliant, but that is one thing you can totally improve with training and reps.

[TheSuzerain]

Manu was an elite athlete though.

Still would be very pleased with Hayes at 4.

[dougthonus]

I think he'll be better then DLo

Watch on YouTube

Wow, that is a great breakdown. I’m even more impressed with Hayes than I was before. I urge everyone to take a look at this video. Thanks Hrv

Actually, as I watch more of Hayes, he makes me think of Manu, especially the way he passes, but also his step-back and moves in the paint.

His handles are actually really weird. Very unorthodox, almost awkward looking. Yet he never really seems out of control or like he's improvising his way in and out of trouble; rather he has very good fundamentals and awareness with the ball. He does look dominant-hand reliant, but that is one thing you can totally improve with training and reps.

I didn't come away that impressed from that video, especially given that it wasn't a strengths and weaknesses video but just a cherry pick video. Looked like a mediocre athlete that is one handed with kind of a slow release on his jumper with inconsistent form, hard to say how good a jump shooter he is from a video that only shows makes, but looking at his release speed and form, I wouldn't think very good right now.

Looked like he had great court vision and that probably is his best attribute. His ball handling needs to improve massively for him to have a good impact in the NBA with his level of athleticism. If he could build up a strong handle and fix his jumper, then its easy to see how he could be really good. That said, those are two traits you could of expect a PG to have going into the draft.

Of course, it's easy to pick a part every player in the draft as we already know there are no great players for us to take most likely. Everyone has flaws.

[holv03]

Wow, that is a great breakdown. I’m even more impressed with Hayes than I was before. I urge everyone to take a look at this video. Thanks Hrv

Actually, as I watch more of Hayes, he makes me think of Manu, especially the way he passes, but also his step-back and moves in the paint.

His handles are actually really weird. Very unorthodox, almost awkward looking. Yet he never really seems out of control or like he's improvising his way in and out of trouble; rather he has very good fundamentals and awareness with the ball. He does look dominant-hand reliant, but that is one thing you can totally improve with training and reps.

I didn't come away that impressed from that video, especially given that it wasn't a strengths and weaknesses video but just a cherry pick video. Looked like a mediocre athlete that is one handed with kind of a slow release on his jumper with inconsistent form, hard to say how good a jump shooter he is from a video that only shows makes, but looking at his release speed and form, I wouldn't think very good right now.

Looked like he had great court vision and that probably is his best attribute. His ball handling needs to improve massively for him to have a good impact in the NBA with his level of athleticism. If he could build up a strong handle and fix his jumper, then its easy to see how he could be really good. That said, those are two traits you could of expect a PG to have going into the draft.

Of course, it's easy to pick a part every player in the draft as we already know there are no great players for us to take most likely. Everyone has flaws.

I would have to agree with Doug on this one. I think that Tyrese Haliburton is a more exciting prospect than Hayes but that is my personal opinion. They both need to work on certain parts of their game but I believe that Haliburton has the potential to be the better prospect.

I know that the Bulls have positions that they need to address but in a draft like this we always have to go best player available and at 4 I don't think that is Hayes. Haliburton with the right trainer he could be elite.

[MGB8]

I've started to look at more videos of the draft prospects and I'm less down on this draft than I was previously.

First, while folks on this board have a lot of hate for LaMelo Ball.... he looks like the real deal to me. Yeah, there's the shooting red flag - although the form isn't broken. But the guy is very quick with the ball and can get anywhere he wants on the court, with some pretty good court vision.

Meanwhile, the competition that he faced included some legit NBA rotation level players who just didn't stick for one reason or another (the churnining towards younger players, maybe some personality issues, etc.). So while he won't be able to get away with some of the things that he does when he moves up in competition level... I don't see any reason to think that he won't adjust.

Edwards is a solid prospect.

Wiseman is a much better prospect than Mo Bamba was (and this board was crazy about him), with a frame that suggests that he will fill out and exceptional athleticism for that size...

I'm still "meh" on Toppin in terms of top 4. No doubt he looks like a productive NBA caliber offensive PF, but I don't see a playmaker who can handle the ball or much in terms of lateral skills - just maximizing an explosive first step, very good vertical athleticism, and a good shot. But I'm not sure how much room he has to grow given his profile.

I get the appeal of Deni (athletic high IQ, ball handling "modern 4" with good size/frame, though another guy with a shooting question mark). I still love Vassell even though he's not an offensive "alpha" (though he might grow into one... a la Leonard, Butler, etc., but most of the time that doesn't happen... at the same time, he doesn't have the confidence issues that plagued Tony Snell).

Still don't know enough about the other PGs but even without considering them, the Bulls should come away with a very good player.

[TheSuzerain]

I do think there are some nice toolsy guys who will seemingly be available in the mid-late 1st.

RJ Hampton - Needs to improve a lot but he has most of the foundational tools you'd want. Nothing is glaringly inadequate when thinking about a starting caliber guard. He just needs to put the work in.

Devon Dotson - Was probably the best guard in college last year. I feel like he'd by fantastic next to a wing playmaker as he doesn't have the passing/vision chops for that.

Kira Lewis - Has a lottery caliber physical gifts and is a solid shooter. There's upside here. Downside too but whatever.

[Jcool0]

I've started to look at more videos of the draft prospects and I'm less down on this draft than I was previously.

First, while folks on this board have a lot of hate for LaMelo Ball.... he looks like the real deal to me. Yeah, there's the shooting red flag - although the form isn't broken. But the guy is very quick with the ball and can get anywhere he wants on the court, with some pretty good court vision.

Literally everything about his shot is broken. Which is why he is a terrible shooter.

[VolumePoster]

I really hope everyone sleeps on Wiseman. Seems like it.

[Chi town]

1. I see Melo hardcore struggling until he gets a solid shot. That should be at least 2 seasons. Took Lonzo 3.

2. Hayes is 1.5 years younger than Hali. What would a Soph Hayes look like athletically and skills wise. I’d take Hayes for Hali all day and I like Hali.

3. I see Deni, Hayes, and Hali as high floor players because of size and skills in this nba. I think Deni and somewhat Hayes has strong ceilings too because of IQ, size, and skill. Hali’s shot limits him big time. Can’t get it off from the dribble and can’t run off screens and shoot. Simple catch and shoot in a set position. I see Deni and Hayes have strong potential as shooters. Both show form that looks strong, stepbacks and dribble 3s potential.

[Jcool0]

1. I see Melo hardcore struggling until he gets a solid shot. That should be at least 2 seasons. Took Lonzo 3.

2. Hayes is 1.5 years younger than Hali. What would a Soph Hayes look like athletically and skills wise. I’d take Hayes for Hali all day and I like Hali.

3. I see Deni, Hayes, and Hali as high floor players because of size and skills in this nba. I think Deni and somewhat Hayes has strong ceilings too because of IQ, size, and skill. Hali’s shot limits him big time. Can’t get it off from the dribble and can’t run off screens and shoot. Simple catch and shoot in a set position. I see Deni and Hayes have strong potential as shooters. Both show form that looks strong, stepbacks and dribble 3s potential.

FWIW Lonzo still hasn't fixed his shot.

[Chi town]

1. I see Melo hardcore struggling until he gets a solid shot. That should be at least 2 seasons. Took Lonzo 3.

2. Hayes is 1.5 years younger than Hali. What would a Soph Hayes look like athletically and skills wise. I’d take Hayes for Hali all day and I like Hali.

3. I see Deni, Hayes, and Hali as high floor players because of size and skills in this nba. I think Deni and somewhat Hayes has strong ceilings too because of IQ, size, and skill. Hali’s shot limits him big time. Can’t get it off from the dribble and can’t run off screens and shoot. Simple catch and shoot in a set position. I see Deni and Hayes have strong potential as shooters. Both show form that looks strong, stepbacks and dribble 3s potential.

FWIW Lonzo still hasn't fixed his shot.

I said solid. Not fixed

[kodo]

Actually, as I watch more of Hayes, he makes me think of Manu, especially the way he passes, but also his step-back and moves in the paint.

His handles are actually really weird. Very unorthodox, almost awkward looking. Yet he never really seems out of control or like he's improvising his way in and out of trouble; rather he has very good fundamentals and awareness with the ball. He does look dominant-hand reliant, but that is one thing you can totally improve with training and reps.

I didn't come away that impressed from that video, especially given that it wasn't a strengths and weaknesses video but just a cherry pick video. Looked like a mediocre athlete that is one handed with kind of a slow release on his jumper with inconsistent form, hard to say how good a jump shooter he is from a video that only shows makes, but looking at his release speed and form, I wouldn't think very good right now.

Looked like he had great court vision and that probably is his best attribute. His ball handling needs to improve massively for him to have a good impact in the NBA with his level of athleticism. If he could build up a strong handle and fix his jumper, then its easy to see how he could be really good. That said, those are two traits you could of expect a PG to have going into the draft.

Of course, it's easy to pick a part every player in the draft as we already know there are no great players for us to take most likely. Everyone has flaws.

I would have to agree with Doug on this one. I think that Tyrese Haliburton is a more exciting prospect than Hayes but that is my personal opinion. They both need to work on certain parts of their game but I believe that Haliburton has the potential to be the better prospect.

I know that the Bulls have positions that they need to address but in a draft like this we always have to go best player available and at 4 I don't think that is Hayes. Haliburton with the right trainer he could be elite.

Haliburton's weak hand is far worse than Hayes'. Haliburton made 2 baskets on the entire season attacking the basket with his weak hand, and both were tip ins. If he even goes to the basket at all, he only attacked 16 times total off the p&r.

Haliburton achieved much better shooting stats by not doing anything difficult, he only shot 28% of his jumpers off the dribble and he didn't attack the basket much. He cashed in on catch & shoot shots. Arci is our best 3P% player at 39%, but he's not any kind of talent. He mainly shoots off assisted catch & shoot shots himself.

The potential for Haliburton to be more of a shooter off the dribble is pessimistic because of the low release of his shot and the long set up time.

At this point we're just comparing two guys who both have major flaws. I actually think Hayes has an easier road, because he needs to get better at what he does, but what he does fits the job requirement for an NBA pg. Haliburton needs to add completely new dimensions to his game which is always a bigger risk, and potentially rebuild his shot like Fultz or Lonzo if he's going to become a high level guard and more than just a C&S guy offensively.

Stepien:

..while he has looked better taking off the bounce jumpers / pullup jumpers (at the very least, he looks more willing to take these), he is still a bad shooter in this area. 16/57 on off the bounce jumpers, which ranks 327th out of 383 division 1 players with 50+ attempts. His form is not conducive to taking pullups, so I don’t project this being a big part of his game going forward

I'd still be fine with Haliburton, because I think expectations of this pick need to be rock bottom low. And having a great C&S shooter is still an asset. But I don't think Haliburton has a big upside given his limitations.

[JohnnyTapwater]

This is interesting.

Read on Twitter

[Jcool0]

This is interesting.

Read on Twitter

I mean its not hard to figure out why that is. Teams will always go for the guy they see as having the higher upside.

[Ben Wilson25]

Having Tyrese Haliburton would be such a breath of fresh air. Not since Butler and Wade were on the team have we had someone who can competently run a pick and roll. I think of thing you see from great players and teams is just the ability to do the basics at a very high-level. Haliburton can score from anywhere on the court, he can change pace, he has good size, he can make every type of pass.

You just put him in a pick and roll and I feel like he's going to score or get an assist.

My new dream is to add another pick so we can draft Deni and Hali - It would just increase the passing and Bball IQ of our team tremendously.

Most guys use the pick and then read the defender to make a play. I like that he goes the extra step and actively manipulates the defender to create. There were multiple plays in the video chitowndish posted above where he uses the pick and then just slows down or stops to bait the help man into coming back to him to create an easy look for the big. Good patience and change of pace like you mentioned.

[Senor Chang]

This is interesting.

Read on Twitter

I feel the same could be said when comparing Hayes and Haliburton. Haliburton does most things as well/or even better than Hayes and yet is deemed as having a lower upside. Haliburton likely has a longer wingspan but most won't value that as highly as Hayes step-back three. If Hayes ends up not being a star, his value tanks tremendously as a role player. Haliburton can be an elite role player.

Put a gun to my head im probably taking Hayes at #4 but i think Haliburton will surprise people once in the league.

[Leslie Forman]

Do you have a big board? Top 5 or so...

Nah I really never go nerdy enough to go that far. So far though Edwards is clearly #1.

After that, I like Kira Lewis, Paul Reed, Onyeka Okongwu…not sure yet how I feel about Nesmith and Haliburton. Need to dig more on the wing prospects like Vassell and Okoro but IDK if I'm gonna be too impressed.

[wonderboy2]

Well in terms of Point guard prospects I have 1)Ball 2)Haliburton 3)Hayes. I think right now Haliburton is the best pg in the draft. I think if Ball put it all together he’s definitely will be the best point guard in the draft. Hayes I think will be a decent player in the NBA but it’s going to take a while. I like Haliburtons game and think he has a high floor. He has to be more agrressive though. I don’t like players that aren’t aggressive and are passive. He has to get better off the bounce to and add strength. Hayes has a lot of things that needs work imo. His lack of burst is concerning to me. Also he can be turnover prone. I can go on about concerns I have about Hayes but that will be at a later post. I don’t know if Hayes or Haliburton are worth a 4 pick. But if I’m reaching for that 4th pick I would take Haliburton. I think if he reach his ceiling he could be a better playmaking Malcolm Brogdon.