Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory

[pepe1991]

Why are you being perpetually dense about terminology?

This has been explained. “Blowing it up” doesn’t 100% equal “the process”. They could be patient and still be lapped by teams that decided to make bold decisions that weren’t fielding a .500 roster with an absolute ceiling.

You make it sound like trades, to make a more logical roster, are out of the question entirely.

To maximise odds you have to minimize chance at winnig games, so yea, blowing it up to start the process is "best " way to avoid winning. But it guts your roster, rookie scale contracts overlap and big portion of picks never reach level where they were worth tanking.

Simmons, Fultz, Wiggins and Ayton are 1# picks. It's impossible to win nba finals with any of them as 1# option.

“The process” is purposeful losing to gain high draft picks only for multiple terrible seasons. Nobody is advocating for that. Not only does it not work now with lottery reform, but there are other avenues to acquiring talent.

Anybody in the world would trade OKC’s assets for Orlando’s. They didn’t need to tank to get there. Orlando doesn’t even need to strike rich like they did with their deals on a comparable level. You get the point.

Quit pretending like Philadelphia’s process is the only way to get decent draft position and prospects.

Yea let'stalk about OKC for a second.

Steven Adams- asset they aquired via trade - By losing James Harden
SGA - traded from CLippers - by losing Paul George
Chris Paul -traded from Houston - by losing Russell Westbrook
Dennis Schroder- traded from Atlanta by trading Carmelo Anthony

So let's just stop here for a moment. To be where they are at now, something you praise, they "just" had to lose 4 perenial allstars

And even if you go back, all those assets were part of first nucleus and part of Durant and Supersonics, later OKC - big 3, that was split by same GM who you now fam over as "collecting assets master" . You know, guy who traded James Harden for Kevin Martin and Lamb

Stop it, OKC are dumpster fire if you know what they had ,and elected to let go. They kept Ibaka over Harden, where they could have had both, but they were too cheap to pay additional $4M
Talking about double standards, guess who lost in first round in 2018, 2019 and will probably in 2020?
Talking about hypocrisy, guess who is 5 years older than Vuc and payed way more, you know, Vuc, player you,among many others want to see gone asap? Chris Paul.

But OKC assets are great, aren't they ? Like... SGA and... Wait.That's only solid player under age of 26 they have .Schroder ( 27), Paul (35), Galinari (31), Adams (27), Noel (26).
What's there to be exited about execlly?
They have bunch of ucpomming first round picks from Clippers and Houston. Both teams runned well enough to make it sure those picks have little value.

This is what i hate on this forum. Complete hypocricy. You will here stand and cry for rebuild and how "running it back" is wrong, and how losing in first round as ceiling is terrible ( and that's fair point ) but then you will draw parallels to OKC, team that from 2016 to this date NEVER PASSED FIRST ROUND OF PLAYOFFS.

[drsd]

You make it sound like trades, to make a more logical roster, are out of the question entirely.

I am all for trades; just not trades for draft picks. That is: I agree with you Orlando need balance in its roster.

Many here have the idea that Orlando should trade for the #2, keep the #15, and ride three rookies next year. That sounds a lot like "A Process" to me.

But a trade like Gordon, Fournier (him opting in) and the #15 for CJ McCollum is something I can see as a balance to the Magic roster.

Look: I had expected a major overall of the roster this off-season with a specific targeting of the upgrade of Fournier at the SG slot. But as he is likely to opt in, this might be delayed until the 2021 off-season.

[drsd]

Now do the Mavs and Doncic. If only we would have lost a few games that year we would be the ones with him and not Bamba.

A list because this immediately reminded me of the 2015 draft

2018 - Dončić (or Young) because of one late season win
2017 - Orlando ended up with Fultz and Isaac, so no complaints
2016 - Sabonis drafted and traded for a bag of popcorn
2015 - Porziņģis because of one late season win
2014 - none of the top 4 really stand far ahead of others
2013 - Orlando drafted the best player - not named Antetokounmpo - in a very weak draft


In conclusion, late wins hurt the Magic twice in their "Process", but this is not all that horrible.

[drsd]

I don't care what you want to call it. Retooling/blowing it up/etc. Whatever you want to call it, the majority of the core/rotation cannot remain on this roster moving forward.

Most here have Fultz and Isaac as core. And I add Vučević (which I know many here would not agree with). But that's it for me: a list off three Magicians. The rest of the roster is upgradeable. Or tradeable for an upgrade.

..

[VFX]

To maximise odds you have to minimize chance at winnig games, so yea, blowing it up to start the process is "best " way to avoid winning. But it guts your roster, rookie scale contracts overlap and big portion of picks never reach level where they were worth tanking.

Simmons, Fultz, Wiggins and Ayton are 1# picks. It's impossible to win nba finals with any of them as 1# option.

“The process” is purposeful losing to gain high draft picks only for multiple terrible seasons. Nobody is advocating for that. Not only does it not work now with lottery reform, but there are other avenues to acquiring talent.

Anybody in the world would trade OKC’s assets for Orlando’s. They didn’t need to tank to get there. Orlando doesn’t even need to strike rich like they did with their deals on a comparable level. You get the point.

Quit pretending like Philadelphia’s process is the only way to get decent draft position and prospects.

Yea let'stalk about OKC for a second.

Steven Adams- asset they aquired via trade - By losing James Harden
SGA - traded from CLippers - by losing Paul George
Chris Paul -traded from Houston - by losing Russell Westbrook
Dennis Schroder- traded from Atlanta by trading Carmelo Anthony

So let's just stop here for a moment. To be where they are at now, something you praise, they "just" had to lose 4 perenial allstars

And even if you go back, all those assets were part of first nucleus and part of Durant and Supersonics, later OKC - big 3, that was split by same GM who you now fam over as "collecting assets master" . You know, guy who traded James Harden for Kevin Martin and Lamb

Stop it, OKC are dumpster fire if you know what they had ,and elected to let go. They kept Ibaka over Harden, where they could have had both, but they were too cheap to pay additional $4M
Talking about double standards, guess who lost in first round in 2018, 2019 and will probably in 2020?
Talking about hypocrisy, guess who is 5 years older than Vuc and payed way more, you know, Vuc, player you,among many others want to see gone asap? Chris Paul.

But OKC assets are great, aren't they ? Like... SGA and... Wait.That's only solid player under age of 26 they have .Schroder ( 27), Paul (35), Galinari (31), Adams (27), Noel (26).
What's there to be exited about execlly?
They have bunch of ucpomming first round picks from Clippers and Houston. Both teams runned well enough to make it sure those picks have little value.

This is what i hate on this forum. Complete hypocricy. You will here stand and cry for rebuild and how "running it back" is wrong, and how losing in first round as ceiling is terrible ( and that's fair point ) but then you will draw parallels to OKC, team that from 2016 to this date NEVER PASSED FIRST ROUND OF PLAYOFFS.

Pepe it’s not that deep.

The OKC example was about a team that used decent assets to consolidate for future assets because they are in no position to be competing realistically, but have exceeded expectations regardless. That’s it.

Hypocrisy? The last 4 years have been a complete wash because people kept giving this FO chances when they’ve been doing nothing but buy time instead of making moves. Then , you are going to tell me that Orlando shouldn’t try to consolidate assets into multiple future assets (picks and players) because you disagree with my example?

Fine pepe, choose any team that decided to move on from their stale assets to shoot for better ones. Go ahead. DRAFTING is the only way this franchise has been or will be relevant. You can cry about that all you want, but it’s the truth. By the way, you would still trade rosters and assets with OKC despite their failures with elite talent. That should say something considering Orlando has had more time and done less in the same window in a significantly weaker conference.

[pepe1991]

“The process” is purposeful losing to gain high draft picks only for multiple terrible seasons. Nobody is advocating for that. Not only does it not work now with lottery reform, but there are other avenues to acquiring talent.

Anybody in the world would trade OKC’s assets for Orlando’s. They didn’t need to tank to get there. Orlando doesn’t even need to strike rich like they did with their deals on a comparable level. You get the point.

Quit pretending like Philadelphia’s process is the only way to get decent draft position and prospects.

Yea let'stalk about OKC for a second.

Steven Adams- asset they aquired via trade - By losing James Harden
SGA - traded from CLippers - by losing Paul George
Chris Paul -traded from Houston - by losing Russell Westbrook
Dennis Schroder- traded from Atlanta by trading Carmelo Anthony

So let's just stop here for a moment. To be where they are at now, something you praise, they "just" had to lose 4 perenial allstars

And even if you go back, all those assets were part of first nucleus and part of Durant and Supersonics, later OKC - big 3, that was split by same GM who you now fam over as "collecting assets master" . You know, guy who traded James Harden for Kevin Martin and Lamb

Stop it, OKC are dumpster fire if you know what they had ,and elected to let go. They kept Ibaka over Harden, where they could have had both, but they were too cheap to pay additional $4M
Talking about double standards, guess who lost in first round in 2018, 2019 and will probably in 2020?
Talking about hypocrisy, guess who is 5 years older than Vuc and payed way more, you know, Vuc, player you,among many others want to see gone asap? Chris Paul.

But OKC assets are great, aren't they ? Like... SGA and... Wait.That's only solid player under age of 26 they have .Schroder ( 27), Paul (35), Galinari (31), Adams (27), Noel (26).
What's there to be exited about execlly?
They have bunch of ucpomming first round picks from Clippers and Houston. Both teams runned well enough to make it sure those picks have little value.

This is what i hate on this forum. Complete hypocricy. You will here stand and cry for rebuild and how "running it back" is wrong, and how losing in first round as ceiling is terrible ( and that's fair point ) but then you will draw parallels to OKC, team that from 2016 to this date NEVER PASSED FIRST ROUND OF PLAYOFFS.

Pepe it’s not that deep.

The OKC example was about a team that used decent assets to consolidate for future assets because they are in no position to be competing realistically, but have exceeded expectations regardless. That’s it.

Hypocrisy? The last 4 years have been a complete wash because people kept giving this FO chances when they’ve been doing nothing but buy time instead of making moves. Then , you are going to tell me that Orlando shouldn’t try to consolidate assets into multiple future assets (picks and players) because you disagree with my example?

Fine pepe, choose any team that decided to move on from their stale assets to shoot for better ones. Go ahead. DRAFTING is the only way this franchise has been or will be relevant. You can cry about that all you want, but it’s the truth. By the way, you would still trade rosters and assets with OKC despite their failures with elite talent. That should say something considering Orlando has had more time and done less in the same window in a significantly weaker conference.

MM, it's not that deep, OKC at one moment had Durant, Westbrook, Harden and Ibaka on a roster, after they commited laughale money to Kndrick Perkins among all people, they decided to choose ( where literally nobody forced them to t do so ) between Ibaka and Harden, and picked Ibaka.
Everytihng that followed, to this date, is trying to fix that historic f***ery.

You praise a team that next year will burn epic $41 358 000 on 36 years old, 6'0 point guard and $25 500 000 on average nba center in Adams. Where execlly their bright future will come from ? Non lottery picks or Houston or Clippers mid 20s pick next year?

The truth is that you flip flop arguments most of the time. You are "closet" tanker who refuses to admit it's impossible to win top 5 pick without wracking whole roster. You use teams like OKC here flip argument about "asset menagment" , where they are polar opposite of good asset menagment, where for better part of their existence they are patching hot -fixes every year like they are working on Windows Vista back in a day. In their team history they relevance existed until Durant played for them. From a day he left, they are first round, super expensive, too small of a market for rebuild- team , that lives in fear of being sold back to Siettle.

The fact is, Lakers tried to tank, didn't work. Celtics tried to tank in 2014, didn't work. T wovles and Kings are tanking for decade. Doesn't work. Most of teams that are currently contenders, did not draft their best players in lottery. Matter of fact i don't think anybody did. Maybe if you belive Murray is 1A to Jokić 1B than that's one.
That doesn't mean most of good players are NOT in lottery, it means that picks are just one of many tools to improve roster, and it takes waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more to build soliid team than just have 15% win percentage every year and hope against all ods that you wil land Lebron and Durant in back to back years. Funny enough, teams that actually drafted them, never won anything with them. ( at least until Lebron didn't return, over a decade later )

[VFX]

Yea let'stalk about OKC for a second.

Steven Adams- asset they aquired via trade - By losing James Harden
SGA - traded from CLippers - by losing Paul George
Chris Paul -traded from Houston - by losing Russell Westbrook
Dennis Schroder- traded from Atlanta by trading Carmelo Anthony

So let's just stop here for a moment. To be where they are at now, something you praise, they "just" had to lose 4 perenial allstars

And even if you go back, all those assets were part of first nucleus and part of Durant and Supersonics, later OKC - big 3, that was split by same GM who you now fam over as "collecting assets master" . You know, guy who traded James Harden for Kevin Martin and Lamb

Stop it, OKC are dumpster fire if you know what they had ,and elected to let go. They kept Ibaka over Harden, where they could have had both, but they were too cheap to pay additional $4M
Talking about double standards, guess who lost in first round in 2018, 2019 and will probably in 2020?
Talking about hypocrisy, guess who is 5 years older than Vuc and payed way more, you know, Vuc, player you,among many others want to see gone asap? Chris Paul.

But OKC assets are great, aren't they ? Like... SGA and... Wait.That's only solid player under age of 26 they have .Schroder ( 27), Paul (35), Galinari (31), Adams (27), Noel (26).
What's there to be exited about execlly?
They have bunch of ucpomming first round picks from Clippers and Houston. Both teams runned well enough to make it sure those picks have little value.

This is what i hate on this forum. Complete hypocricy. You will here stand and cry for rebuild and how "running it back" is wrong, and how losing in first round as ceiling is terrible ( and that's fair point ) but then you will draw parallels to OKC, team that from 2016 to this date NEVER PASSED FIRST ROUND OF PLAYOFFS.

Pepe it’s not that deep.

The OKC example was about a team that used decent assets to consolidate for future assets because they are in no position to be competing realistically, but have exceeded expectations regardless. That’s it.

Hypocrisy? The last 4 years have been a complete wash because people kept giving this FO chances when they’ve been doing nothing but buy time instead of making moves. Then , you are going to tell me that Orlando shouldn’t try to consolidate assets into multiple future assets (picks and players) because you disagree with my example?

Fine pepe, choose any team that decided to move on from their stale assets to shoot for better ones. Go ahead. DRAFTING is the only way this franchise has been or will be relevant. You can cry about that all you want, but it’s the truth. By the way, you would still trade rosters and assets with OKC despite their failures with elite talent. That should say something considering Orlando has had more time and done less in the same window in a significantly weaker conference.

MM, it's not that deep, OKC at one moment had Durant, Westbrook, Harden and Ibaka on a roster, after they commited laughale money to Kndrick Perkins among all people, they decided to choose ( where literally nobody forced them to t do so ) between Ibaka and Harden, and picked Ibaka.
Everytihng that followed, to this date, is trying to fix that historic f***ery.

You praise a team that next year will burn epic $41 358 000 on 36 years old, 6'0 point guard and $25 500 000 on average nba center in Adams. Where execlly their bright future will come from ? Non lottery picks or Houston or Clippers mid 20s pick next year?

The truth is that you flip flop arguments most of the time. You are "closet" tanker who refuses to admit it's impossible to win top 5 pick without wracking whole roster. You use teams like OKC here flip argument about "asset menagment" , where they are polar opposite of good asset menagment, where for better part of their existence they are patching hot -fixes every year like they are working on Windows Vista back in a day. In their team history they relevance existed until Durant played for them. From a day he left, they are first round, super expensive, too small of a market for rebuild- team , that lives in fear of being sold back to Siettle.

The fact is, Lakers tried to tank, didn't work. Celtics tried to tank in 2014, didn't work. T wovles and Kings are tanking for decade. Doesn't work. Most of teams that are currently contenders, did not draft their best players in lottery. Matter of fact i don't think anybody did. Maybe if you belive Murray is 1A to Jokić 1B than that's one.
That doesn't mean most of good players are NOT in lottery, it means that picks are just one of many tools to improve roster, and it takes waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more to build soliid team than just have 15% win percentage every year and hope against all ods that you wil land Lebron and Durant in back to back years. Funny enough, teams that actually drafted them, never won anything with them. ( at least until Lebron didn't return, over a decade later )

Pepe you just don’t get it.

I’m not talking about OKC in their recent history. I’m talking about how they rehauled their failed contending roster LAST SEASON into better assets while not bottoming our entirely. That’s it. It was an example in NOT tanking while having a brighter future than... Orlando for example.

I don’t flip flop arguments at all. I’ve been extremely consistent here for years with how I feel maybe to everyone except you and ezzzp. My stance? If the teams roster doesn’t make sense. Fix it. Lacking a go-to Star? Find one. If that involves picking higher in the draft, so be it.

I honestly don’t know why you go so far into some of these examples that have absolutely nothing to do with what people are talking about. You always ramble on about some arbitrary point that is nowhere connected to the actual argument.

[pepe1991]

Pepe it’s not that deep.

The OKC example was about a team that used decent assets to consolidate for future assets because they are in no position to be competing realistically, but have exceeded expectations regardless. That’s it.

Hypocrisy? The last 4 years have been a complete wash because people kept giving this FO chances when they’ve been doing nothing but buy time instead of making moves. Then , you are going to tell me that Orlando shouldn’t try to consolidate assets into multiple future assets (picks and players) because you disagree with my example?

Fine pepe, choose any team that decided to move on from their stale assets to shoot for better ones. Go ahead. DRAFTING is the only way this franchise has been or will be relevant. You can cry about that all you want, but it’s the truth. By the way, you would still trade rosters and assets with OKC despite their failures with elite talent. That should say something considering Orlando has had more time and done less in the same window in a significantly weaker conference.

MM, it's not that deep, OKC at one moment had Durant, Westbrook, Harden and Ibaka on a roster, after they commited laughale money to Kndrick Perkins among all people, they decided to choose ( where literally nobody forced them to t do so ) between Ibaka and Harden, and picked Ibaka.
Everytihng that followed, to this date, is trying to fix that historic f***ery.

You praise a team that next year will burn epic $41 358 000 on 36 years old, 6'0 point guard and $25 500 000 on average nba center in Adams. Where execlly their bright future will come from ? Non lottery picks or Houston or Clippers mid 20s pick next year?

The truth is that you flip flop arguments most of the time. You are "closet" tanker who refuses to admit it's impossible to win top 5 pick without wracking whole roster. You use teams like OKC here flip argument about "asset menagment" , where they are polar opposite of good asset menagment, where for better part of their existence they are patching hot -fixes every year like they are working on Windows Vista back in a day. In their team history they relevance existed until Durant played for them. From a day he left, they are first round, super expensive, too small of a market for rebuild- team , that lives in fear of being sold back to Siettle.

The fact is, Lakers tried to tank, didn't work. Celtics tried to tank in 2014, didn't work. T wovles and Kings are tanking for decade. Doesn't work. Most of teams that are currently contenders, did not draft their best players in lottery. Matter of fact i don't think anybody did. Maybe if you belive Murray is 1A to Jokić 1B than that's one.
That doesn't mean most of good players are NOT in lottery, it means that picks are just one of many tools to improve roster, and it takes waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more to build soliid team than just have 15% win percentage every year and hope against all ods that you wil land Lebron and Durant in back to back years. Funny enough, teams that actually drafted them, never won anything with them. ( at least until Lebron didn't return, over a decade later )

Pepe you just don’t get it.

I’m not talking about OKC in their recent history. I’m talking about how they rehauled their failed contending roster LAST SEASON into better assets while not bottoming our entirely. That’s it. It was an example in NOT tanking while having a brighter future than... Orlando for example.

I don’t flip flop arguments at all. I’ve been extremely consistent here for years with how I feel maybe to everyone except you and ezzzp. My stance? If the teams roster doesn’t make sense. Fix it. Lacking a go-to Star? Find one. If that involves picking higher in the draft, so be it.

I honestly don’t know why you go so far into some of these examples that have absolutely nothing to do with what people are talking about. You always ramble on about some arbitrary point that is nowhere connected to the actual argument.

They literally took on the worst contract in nba . What execlly makes them sucessful? They "rehauled" their failed contending roster by building one that isn't even contending. They are probably, for 3rd year in a row, first round exit team. ( not that if they pass, they will go anywhere against Lakers)...


Can you PLEASE explain to me how they have brighter future than Orlando? They have SGA. That's literally it. Only player on whole roster with any upside and value. And bunch of aiging, expensive veterans, including, above already mentioned, worst single nba contract in basketball ( maybe John Wall has worst, but that's debatable given age ).

Where i really like SGA, at end of a day he is solid, but nothing mindblowing 6'5 combo guard.

or we are now predending that Dennis Schroder is some amazing basketball gem, that i belive , you among all people, had zero desire to touch- 18 months ago? ( I know i was flip flopping about him ,clear upgrade over Payton, but playing chair was upgrade over him so it wasn't high bar to jump over ).

[Xatticus]

The fact is, Lakers tried to tank, didn't work. Celtics tried to tank in 2014, didn't work. T wovles and Kings are tanking for decade. Doesn't work. Most of teams that are currently contenders, did not draft their best players in lottery. Matter of fact i don't think anybody did. Maybe if you belive Murray is 1A to Jokić 1B than that's one.
That doesn't mean most of good players are NOT in lottery, it means that picks are just one of many tools to improve roster, and it takes waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more to build soliid team than just have 15% win percentage every year and hope against all ods that you wil land Lebron and Durant in back to back years. Funny enough, teams that actually drafted them, never won anything with them. ( at least until Lebron didn't return, over a decade later )

You can't continue to accuse people of being pro-tanking and then entirely misrepresent what tanking is.

The Lakers weren't tanking. Jim Buss was trying to stay in power. They were just terrible. They still used that draft capital to acquire Davis.

Boston never tanked. They traded the core of a team that could no longer compete and got a king's ransom in return. Anytime someone advocates for this around here, the word tanking gets thrown around. Boston built their team through the draft, so I don't even understand why you'd bring them up.

Minnesota and Sacramento have been trying to win. They just aren't any good at it. Neither team has tanked recently. They are us and we are them. It's like staring into a mirror. I don't know what it is that you see that makes you think we are in a better situation than either of those franchises. We haven't made the playoffs the last couple years because we are good. We've made the playoffs because enough teams in the East are worse. That's it.

[KillMonger]

Now do the Mavs and Doncic. If only we would have lost a few games that year we would be the ones with him and not Bamba.

A list because this immediately reminded me of the 2015 draft

2018 - Dončić (or Young) because of one late season win
2017 - Orlando ended up with Fultz and Isaac, so no complaints
2016 - Sabonis drafted and traded for a bag of popcorn
2015 - Porziņģis because of one late season win
2014 - none of the top 4 really stand far ahead of others
2013 - Orlando drafted the best player - not named Antetokounmpo - in a very weak draft


In conclusion, late wins hurt the Magic twice in their "Process", but this is not all that horrible.

You know what's funny about all this though? in 2018 with this front office in charge it's plausible we would've still picked Mo Bamba....it's clear that weltham marches to the beat of their own drum

[pepe1991]

The fact is, Lakers tried to tank, didn't work. Celtics tried to tank in 2014, didn't work. T wovles and Kings are tanking for decade. Doesn't work. Most of teams that are currently contenders, did not draft their best players in lottery. Matter of fact i don't think anybody did. Maybe if you belive Murray is 1A to Jokić 1B than that's one.
That doesn't mean most of good players are NOT in lottery, it means that picks are just one of many tools to improve roster, and it takes waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more to build soliid team than just have 15% win percentage every year and hope against all ods that you wil land Lebron and Durant in back to back years. Funny enough, teams that actually drafted them, never won anything with them. ( at least until Lebron didn't return, over a decade later )

You can't continue to accuse people of being pro-tanking and then entirely misrepresent what tanking is.

The Lakers weren't tanking. Jim Buss was trying to stay in power. They were just terrible. They still used that draft capital to acquire Davis.

Boston never tanked. They traded the core of a team that could no longer compete and got a king's ransom in return. Anytime someone advocates for this around here, the word tanking gets thrown around. Boston built their team through the draft, so I don't even understand why you'd bring them up.

Minnesota and Sacramento have been trying to win. They just aren't any good at it. Neither team has tanked recently. They are us and we are them. It's like staring into a mirror. I don't know what it is that you see that makes you think we are in a better situation than either of those franchises. We haven't made the playoffs the last couple years because we are good. We've made the playoffs because enough teams in the East are worse. That's it.

The Lakers weren't tanking.

This is facutally false, in order to save their pick in 2017 (that had 1-3 protection) they pulled most obvious tank job in their history.
Matter of fact it was so obvious that business insider even wrote article titled " The Lakers are pulling the most obvious tank job in the NBA to save a draft pick they gave away in a disastrous trade"

https://www.businessinsider.com/lakers-tanking-to-save-draft-pick-2017-3

whole article in link

In order to save a pick they shut down Mozgov and Deng, traded Lou Williams ( one of few actual contributors) and pulled Nick Young to bench. Final result was losing 20 out of last 25 games of regular season.

Boston never tanked.

Once again, factually false.
Boston lost 15 of last 18 games of regular season in 2013-14 as they had 25-57 record.
First they traded KG and Pierce for picks, than they traded Courtney Lee for picks, than Marshan Brooks and Crawford for Joel Anthony and more picks. At the end they traded Fab Melo (second year player, first round pick) for cash.
If that isn't one of most obvious tank jobs out there i really don't know what is.
This is Celtics 8 men rotation at tail end of a season: Brandon Bass, Kelly Olynyk, Bradley, Jeff Green,Philly Pressy, Chris Johnson, Ivan Rabb and Joel Anthony. This might be most untalented Celtics roster in history. Done on purpose.

In 2007, Celtics lost 18 games in a row. Later that year they made a trade for KG and Allen.

How execlly Minessota didn't tank recently? They literally tanked this year.
It's almost impossible , without clear intentions, to lose 19 of 22 games during period of one season.
It's also impossible, yet T wolves pulled up this year, to start 18 different players for at least 1 game. Who is "baby Shaq" Martin and why 25 years old undrafted player is starting on allegedly non-tanking team?
Who is Keita Bates DIop and why is he 17 mpg player?
Who starts 24 years old undrafted rookie , named Jordan McLaughlin ?

Come on man, this teams maybe didn't have intention to tank from day one ( actually Lakers did in 2017) but those teams after 20-30 games gear up into total tank mode on purpose each and every single year. They get excuse of "injuries" as half of vets sit down, doing nothing, with "stiff back" or some other vague crap of a "injury".

Magic were in playoffs because at least 7 teams were with worst record. Was it worth for Knicks, Hornets, Bulls , Cavs or Wizards to miss playoffs last year given who they drafted and how they looked this year ? Answer is simply- no.

[Skin]

Pepe says tank doesn't work.
Pepe says Lakers tanked.
Lakers flip draft assets to dump bad contracts and sign stars.
Pepe says contenders don't build through the draft.

Pepe says tank doesn't work.
Pepe says Celtics tanked.
Celtics core is made up of their draft picks.
Pepe says contenders don't build through the draft.

[drsd]

Is Duncan Robinson worth the full mid-level exemption for Orlando?

And is ~9M a year enough to snag him?


//

[zaymon]

Pepe says tank doesn't work.
Pepe says Lakers tanked.
Lakers flip draft assets to dump bad contracts and sign stars.
Pepe says contenders don't build through the draft.

Pepe says tank doesn't work.
Pepe says Celtics tanked.
Celtics core is made up of their draft picks.
Pepe says contenders don't build through the draft.

Lakers are contenders becouse Lebron signed with them, their tank went horribly.
Boston are contenders becouse they robbed Nets in a trade not becouse they were tanking. Tatum and Brown are not their picks.

[pepe1991]

Pepe says tank doesn't work.
Pepe says Lakers tanked.
Lakers flip draft assets to dump bad contracts and sign stars.
Pepe says contenders don't build through the draft.

Pepe says tank doesn't work.
Pepe says Celtics tanked.
Celtics core is made up of their draft picks.
Pepe says contenders don't build through the draft.

Pepe says Lakers tanked- They did. That's how they got Ingram and Lonzo. ( they had to in 2017)
Lakers without FA Lebron would be Pelicans without Zion today - still trash team .

Pepe says contenders don't build through draft - because not a single currently nba contender has best player on that team that was drafted in lottery -by that team tanking. Conclusion it doesn't work.

Celtics tanked- fact.
Celtics tanked and ended up with Marcus Smart. Bad.
Celtics built whole roster on stupidity of Nets GM King and Prokorov insisting to build contender over span of 1 year.

Skin still can't comprehend basic informations .

How do you know Lakers tanked without even understanding basketball ? Well cap space was set at $70M, they commited just enough salary to go be around cap. BUUUUT what's funny is how they commmited money to even fill salary. Instad of chasing FAs, they traded second round pick to absorbe $15M Roy Hibbert's dead salary. if that is not one of biggest, most obvious tank jobs in basketball history i really don't know what is.

[tiderulz]

The fact is, Lakers tried to tank, didn't work. Celtics tried to tank in 2014, didn't work. T wovles and Kings are tanking for decade. Doesn't work. Most of teams that are currently contenders, did not draft their best players in lottery. Matter of fact i don't think anybody did. Maybe if you belive Murray is 1A to Jokić 1B than that's one.
That doesn't mean most of good players are NOT in lottery, it means that picks are just one of many tools to improve roster, and it takes waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more to build soliid team than just have 15% win percentage every year and hope against all ods that you wil land Lebron and Durant in back to back years. Funny enough, teams that actually drafted them, never won anything with them. ( at least until Lebron didn't return, over a decade later )

You can't continue to accuse people of being pro-tanking and then entirely misrepresent what tanking is.

The Lakers weren't tanking. Jim Buss was trying to stay in power. They were just terrible. They still used that draft capital to acquire Davis.

Boston never tanked. They traded the core of a team that could no longer compete and got a king's ransom in return. Anytime someone advocates for this around here, the word tanking gets thrown around. Boston built their team through the draft, so I don't even understand why you'd bring them up.

Minnesota and Sacramento have been trying to win. They just aren't any good at it. Neither team has tanked recently. They are us and we are them. It's like staring into a mirror. I don't know what it is that you see that makes you think we are in a better situation than either of those franchises. We haven't made the playoffs the last couple years because we are good. We've made the playoffs because enough teams in the East are worse. That's it.

The Lakers weren't tanking.

This is facutally false, in order to save their pick in 2017 (that had 1-3 protection) they pulled most obvious tank job in their history.
Matter of fact it was so obvious that business insider even wrote article titled " The Lakers are pulling the most obvious tank job in the NBA to save a draft pick they gave away in a disastrous trade"

https://www.businessinsider.com/lakers-tanking-to-save-draft-pick-2017-3

whole article in link

In order to save a pick they shut down Mozgov and Deng, traded Lou Williams ( one of few actual contributors) and pulled Nick Young to bench. Final result was losing 20 out of last 25 games of regular season.

Boston never tanked.

Once again, factually false.
Boston lost 15 of last 18 games of regular season in 2013-14 as they had 25-57 record.
First they traded KG and Pierce for picks, than they traded Courtney Lee for picks, than Marshan Brooks and Crawford for Joel Anthony and more picks. At the end they traded Fab Melo (second year player, first round pick) for cash.
If that isn't one of most obvious tank jobs out there i really don't know what is.
This is Celtics 8 men rotation at tail end of a season: Brandon Bass, Kelly Olynyk, Bradley, Jeff Green,Philly Pressy, Chris Johnson, Ivan Rabb and Joel Anthony. This might be most untalented Celtics roster in history. Done on purpose.

In 2007, Celtics lost 18 games in a row. Later that year they made a trade for KG and Allen.

How execlly Minessota didn't tank recently? They literally tanked this year.
It's almost impossible , without clear intentions, to lose 19 of 22 games during period of one season.
It's also impossible, yet T wolves pulled up this year, to start 18 different players for at least 1 game. Who is "baby Shaq" Martin and why 25 years old undrafted player is starting on allegedly non-tanking team?
Who is Keita Bates DIop and why is he 17 mpg player?
Who starts 24 years old undrafted rookie , named Jordan McLaughlin ?

Come on man, this teams maybe didn't have intention to tank from day one ( actually Lakers did in 2017) but those teams after 20-30 games gear up into total tank mode on purpose each and every single year. They get excuse of "injuries" as half of vets sit down, doing nothing, with "stiff back" or some other vague crap of a "injury".

Magic were in playoffs because at least 7 teams were with worst record. Was it worth for Knicks, Hornets, Bulls , Cavs or Wizards to miss playoffs last year given who they drafted and how they looked this year ? Answer is simply- no.

not sure you can say they shut down Deng, because it isnt like Deng ever came back to play a lot of games. he was cooked. same thing with Mozgov. Those guys were both hurt and didnt play much basketball after that season. trading Williams was head scratching, but maybe they wanted more draft capital to make moves. And Young needed to go to the bench, he has always been a bench player. He also hasnt played much since then, but only because he seems to have forgotten how to make shots. so they didnt "shut down Mozgov/Deng" because they were and we can see now obviously hurt that has lingered on with them

[tiderulz]

Is Duncan Robinson worth the full mid-level exemption for Orlando?

And is ~9M a year enough to snag him?


//

no, and i dont know.

he is the next young Korver. we need to figure out our star(s) and identity first before we collect more role players.

[pepe1991]

You can't continue to accuse people of being pro-tanking and then entirely misrepresent what tanking is.

The Lakers weren't tanking. Jim Buss was trying to stay in power. They were just terrible. They still used that draft capital to acquire Davis.

Boston never tanked. They traded the core of a team that could no longer compete and got a king's ransom in return. Anytime someone advocates for this around here, the word tanking gets thrown around. Boston built their team through the draft, so I don't even understand why you'd bring them up.

Minnesota and Sacramento have been trying to win. They just aren't any good at it. Neither team has tanked recently. They are us and we are them. It's like staring into a mirror. I don't know what it is that you see that makes you think we are in a better situation than either of those franchises. We haven't made the playoffs the last couple years because we are good. We've made the playoffs because enough teams in the East are worse. That's it.

The Lakers weren't tanking.

This is facutally false, in order to save their pick in 2017 (that had 1-3 protection) they pulled most obvious tank job in their history.
Matter of fact it was so obvious that business insider even wrote article titled " The Lakers are pulling the most obvious tank job in the NBA to save a draft pick they gave away in a disastrous trade"

https://www.businessinsider.com/lakers-tanking-to-save-draft-pick-2017-3

whole article in link

In order to save a pick they shut down Mozgov and Deng, traded Lou Williams ( one of few actual contributors) and pulled Nick Young to bench. Final result was losing 20 out of last 25 games of regular season.

Boston never tanked.

Once again, factually false.
Boston lost 15 of last 18 games of regular season in 2013-14 as they had 25-57 record.
First they traded KG and Pierce for picks, than they traded Courtney Lee for picks, than Marshan Brooks and Crawford for Joel Anthony and more picks. At the end they traded Fab Melo (second year player, first round pick) for cash.
If that isn't one of most obvious tank jobs out there i really don't know what is.
This is Celtics 8 men rotation at tail end of a season: Brandon Bass, Kelly Olynyk, Bradley, Jeff Green,Philly Pressy, Chris Johnson, Ivan Rabb and Joel Anthony. This might be most untalented Celtics roster in history. Done on purpose.

In 2007, Celtics lost 18 games in a row. Later that year they made a trade for KG and Allen.

How execlly Minessota didn't tank recently? They literally tanked this year.
It's almost impossible , without clear intentions, to lose 19 of 22 games during period of one season.
It's also impossible, yet T wolves pulled up this year, to start 18 different players for at least 1 game. Who is "baby Shaq" Martin and why 25 years old undrafted player is starting on allegedly non-tanking team?
Who is Keita Bates DIop and why is he 17 mpg player?
Who starts 24 years old undrafted rookie , named Jordan McLaughlin ?

Come on man, this teams maybe didn't have intention to tank from day one ( actually Lakers did in 2017) but those teams after 20-30 games gear up into total tank mode on purpose each and every single year. They get excuse of "injuries" as half of vets sit down, doing nothing, with "stiff back" or some other vague crap of a "injury".

Magic were in playoffs because at least 7 teams were with worst record. Was it worth for Knicks, Hornets, Bulls , Cavs or Wizards to miss playoffs last year given who they drafted and how they looked this year ? Answer is simply- no.

not sure you can say they shut down Deng, because it isnt like Deng ever came back to play a lot of games. he was cooked. same thing with Mozgov. Those guys were both hurt and didnt play much basketball after that season. trading Williams was head scratching, but maybe they wanted more draft capital to make moves. And Young needed to go to the bench, he has always been a bench player. He also hasnt played much since then, but only because he seems to have forgotten how to make shots. so they didnt "shut down Mozgov/Deng" because they were and we can see now obviously hurt that has lingered on with them

Butboth Mozgov and Deng did play after that year for breath period of time.
They also didn't play Artest nor Young at the end of that year.

Actually Deng went in public and called out Lakers (Luol Deng still wants to play but says the Lakers won’t let him - interview during Africa game ), you can google it if you want.

Mozgov menaged to play 31 games for Nets. Wasn't great or anything, but servicable.

I'm glad you brouth Lou once again, do you know what he said about his Lakers trade?

Lou Williams
@TeamLou23
The thing about draft picks fans forget. That's somebody's job he'll take. Ain't nobody playing for a pick lol. Trying get W's

They literally traded him because he refused to tank for them

I think i rested my case

[tiderulz]

This is facutally false, in order to save their pick in 2017 (that had 1-3 protection) they pulled most obvious tank job in their history.
Matter of fact it was so obvious that business insider even wrote article titled " The Lakers are pulling the most obvious tank job in the NBA to save a draft pick they gave away in a disastrous trade"

https://www.businessinsider.com/lakers-tanking-to-save-draft-pick-2017-3

whole article in link

In order to save a pick they shut down Mozgov and Deng, traded Lou Williams ( one of few actual contributors) and pulled Nick Young to bench. Final result was losing 20 out of last 25 games of regular season.



Once again, factually false.
Boston lost 15 of last 18 games of regular season in 2013-14 as they had 25-57 record.
First they traded KG and Pierce for picks, than they traded Courtney Lee for picks, than Marshan Brooks and Crawford for Joel Anthony and more picks. At the end they traded Fab Melo (second year player, first round pick) for cash.
If that isn't one of most obvious tank jobs out there i really don't know what is.
This is Celtics 8 men rotation at tail end of a season: Brandon Bass, Kelly Olynyk, Bradley, Jeff Green,Philly Pressy, Chris Johnson, Ivan Rabb and Joel Anthony. This might be most untalented Celtics roster in history. Done on purpose.

In 2007, Celtics lost 18 games in a row. Later that year they made a trade for KG and Allen.

How execlly Minessota didn't tank recently? They literally tanked this year.
It's almost impossible , without clear intentions, to lose 19 of 22 games during period of one season.
It's also impossible, yet T wolves pulled up this year, to start 18 different players for at least 1 game. Who is "baby Shaq" Martin and why 25 years old undrafted player is starting on allegedly non-tanking team?
Who is Keita Bates DIop and why is he 17 mpg player?
Who starts 24 years old undrafted rookie , named Jordan McLaughlin ?

Come on man, this teams maybe didn't have intention to tank from day one ( actually Lakers did in 2017) but those teams after 20-30 games gear up into total tank mode on purpose each and every single year. They get excuse of "injuries" as half of vets sit down, doing nothing, with "stiff back" or some other vague crap of a "injury".

Magic were in playoffs because at least 7 teams were with worst record. Was it worth for Knicks, Hornets, Bulls , Cavs or Wizards to miss playoffs last year given who they drafted and how they looked this year ? Answer is simply- no.

not sure you can say they shut down Deng, because it isnt like Deng ever came back to play a lot of games. he was cooked. same thing with Mozgov. Those guys were both hurt and didnt play much basketball after that season. trading Williams was head scratching, but maybe they wanted more draft capital to make moves. And Young needed to go to the bench, he has always been a bench player. He also hasnt played much since then, but only because he seems to have forgotten how to make shots. so they didnt "shut down Mozgov/Deng" because they were and we can see now obviously hurt that has lingered on with them

Butboth Mozgov and Deng did play after that year for breath period of time.
They also didn't play Artest nor Young at the end of that year.

Actually Deng went in public and called out Lakers (Luol Deng still wants to play but says the Lakers won’t let him - interview during Africa game ), you can google it if you want.

Mozgov menaged to play 31 games for Nets. Wasn't great or anything, but servicable.

I'm glad you brouth Lou once again, do you know what he said about his Lakers trade?

Lou Williams
@TeamLou23
The thing about draft picks fans forget. That's somebody's job he'll take. Ain't nobody playing for a pick lol. Trying get W's

They literally traded him because he refused to tank for them

I think i rested my case

Deng may have went public, but he still didnt play much. so either he was still injured and couldnt play, or bad and couldnt play. Just because someone plays 13 games the NEXT year doesnt mean he was healthy. it actually tells me he was more injured after playing limited games after having an offseason to get healthy.

[jonbob17]

Is Duncan Robinson worth the full mid-level exemption for Orlando?

And is ~9M a year enough to snag him?


//

he is under contract next year