moocow007 wrote:KnicksGadfly wrote:moocow007 wrote:Yeah that's mind bogglingly true. And some of the Toppin fans are the same ones that hate Randle.
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Nah a Randle or Toppin fan, but it's not mindboggling.
Randle has two avenues to become a useful player:
1) git gud on offense...really good, good enough to be at least an all star second or first option.
2) git gud on defense and three...balance out his contributions.
I'm worried about Toppin cause of age, defense, rebounding concerns, defensive IQ. However, if a fan truly believes that Toppin can be an offensive star, then it's understandable. He also has the benefit for being a lotto wildcard and a cheaper contract. The difference for Randle is that his body of work has revealed that he's a negative player. Otherwise, he'd be actually playing in the Bubble right now for a contender.
So basically you are worried that Toppin is Randle minus the rebounding? Cheaper contract doesn't mean a thing if the guy is a "negative player" right? Even $1 over for a "negative player" is not worth it. So why on earth would anyone who wants Randle out want Toppin in (the 8th overall pick gets paid more than $1)? It is mind boggling. Why? Cause Toppin dunks? That's about it in the "plus" department Toppin has over Randle. Toppin needs the ball on offense or he's pretty much useless. Unlike college defenders and defenses who he could usually get the better off, he lacks to lower body strength to hold his position against bigger NBA players and isn't going to be given the kind of daylight to do anything if he's put on a bad team like the Knicks which lack ball movement and shot creation. Which is exactly why the worst possible situation you'd want to put a guy like Randle in is the same worst possible position you'd want to put a guy like Toppin in. Randle = bad for NY ~ Toppin = bad for NY. People that want Randle out and Toppin in deserve everything they've gotten the last 20+ years.
Like I said, I'm not a fan of Toppin (Kira bandwagon and I tend to like my players to be good role players if they're not 1st/2nd options) so I'll be devil's advocating here. However, I'm surprised you, as a Randle defender, aren't more appreciative. Shouldn't it go both ways? Actually, as I read your takedown of Toppin, I wondered why you would even support Randle...seems like you know why Randle is a problem.
Two differences between Randle and Toppin:
1) Age + contract
2) Three point shot
1) Like Randle, the only way Toppin is worth his pick if he's really that studly on offense (I mean we could talk about defense and 3 point shooting but that stuff ain't easy). I made the case before that Randle needs to be a Blake Griffin-Kevin Love-Amare Stoudemire type of talent if he wants to go down the offense-only route. Randle's body of work suggests it's not gonna happen. But with a cheaper contract and more time, maybe it will for Toppin. Who knows? You make good and legitimate points about Toppin, and those are some reasons why I won't support him.
2) Shooting. I think he's not doing it on enough volume, but Toppin hit shots in college at a high percentage. This gives hope that maybe it can carry over in the NBA. One issue with Randle is that when you combine a lack of shooting with a lack of defense, you basically need a unicorn to play with him. But Toppin, if he can actually shoot, will require at least a standard rim runner.
So in short, I'm not a fan of Randle or Toppin, but I won't equate the two. Randle is a bonafide failure who has proven it over and over again. Toppin...meh, I don't want him, but he has a chance to not become Randle.
