Around the League - 2019-2020

[stormi]

Lowry is such a gamer, man.

I regret poo-pooing bringing him in on a max a few years ago.

Was so repulsed at the idea of bringing in Lowry when those rumors were swirling around.

Baller fr.

[76ciology]

Lowry is OK if his load is lessen. Like when he’s playing with Kawhi and their talented squad last season or playing with Vanfleet now. But if you put him on our team, you’ll hate him like how you hate Tobias Harris.


*not saying Harris and Lowry are equals

[djsunyc]

lowry's rep took a hit being joined at the hip with derozan but every single raptors fan will tell you he is the heart and engine for us since he got here. there is no doubt in my mind that if you had lowry on the team last year, you win a chip. he's always been good, he's always been smart...last year's chip just validated all of it. and now he's so savvy he knows how to pace himself at times. imho, he's going to be a fanastic head coach once his playing days are done.

[76ciology]

Spoiler:

Do you think the league will trend towards a more small ball approach?

Until Adam Silver fixes the glitch, I do think the league will continue to exploit the game deficiency. The dunk simply has to be worth 3 points. That's how you restore balance.

Celts has shown you just need a random second stringer big to beat the Sixers. Sure Embiid can score but it will just empty his tank down the stretch and he can’t win the high octane perimeter offense.

Yeah, but the 2020 Sixers are a bad playoff team to draw any conclusions from, IMO. What if De'Aron Fox or Jimmy Butler are on the roster with Embiid? Or what if we had Jae Crowder and Andre Iguodala instead of the sieves we have on the perimeter and Brown and Tatum can't score as much as efficiently? This series might have gone the other way and maybe the Celtics feel the need to properly play against Embiid. Notice that when we had a real playoff player (Butler), the Raptors were so scared that they made a deadline deal for Gasol to try to slow up Embiid.

Heat has shown you dont need a big to defend Giannis. They’re using Crowder, Iggy and some time Adebayo. Wall him and he’s done.

The wall thing is relatively new (back in the day, ancillary stars didn't try to drive from the perimeter), but the concept of throwing help defenders at bigs has always been effective. Especially if they don't have a star scorer to play with.

I personally think Celts has the best built for how the trend is looking right now. A wing based defense with wings and guards who can score and make plays.

Yeah, they're operating at the top of the trend, but I'm still not sure if their stars are good enough to win the whole thing. Tatum still plays like a giant version of Dlo. What happens when his jumper isn't falling and he needs to get all the way to the rim off the dribble? Or when he needs to defend a real star on the other end (Butler, Leonard, George)? All remains to be seen how he does. Budenholzer made him look like a chump last year when they played him tight in the midrange.

If Rockets beat the Lakers, I think it will really take a hit on the value of bigs in the league.

I think the Rockets should be expected to win that series, though. Harden and Westbrook are the best two halfcourt scorers in the series and they both play on the same team.

Sure you may say it depends on how your team is built. But looking at it, I think Jokic will defer to Murray going forward and we, Lakers and the Magic may only be the teams that will rely heavy on bigs and post a lot.

Probably. But all it takes is one of those ancillary stars to get a legit star perimeter player to put the ball handler/big combination back en vogue.

You look at the Heat and Pistons giving up on Whiteside or Drummond easily like Christian Bale in the big short, shorting the “bigs stocks” early before the bubble burst.

I like the analogy, but I don't know if I'm willing to credit those teams for taking a longview approach. I think the Heat moved off of Whiteside because he was a jerk and I think the Pistons moved off Drummond to open things up for Blake. The Heat are probably going to be paying Bam a pretty big contract soon and the Pistons might even be giving Christian Wood an extension this summer. So who knows if those teams are in the midst of following the smallball trend.

I can see guys like Austin Rivers’ or Trey Burke’s value increasing. Teams may shift towards a 2 combo guard 5 man units like how the Mavs and OKC have done it. Both teams may even set a trend for a 3 guards line-up.

I think guys like that should have always been valued off the bench because they can score off the dribble and need no help generating offense. That's one of the two things that matters in the playoffs. If you have enough perimeter defenders to where you can guard the other teams ball handlers, by all means, go get yourself a Jordan Clarkson.

I can see teams lightening on their frontcourt and loading on the perimeter. This will make us have an even more uphill climb similar to like Nokia when everyone is trending towards becoming a smart phone

Lol another great reference. Personally, I think teams should still aim to have two bigs for their playoff rotation. 2 bigs and 6 perimeter players (a mix of defense and shotcreation) seems like the smartest plan IMO.

I’d consider the Heat as a smallball team given Bam is only 6’9 and their PF is Duncan Robinson. What made them special and just designed to beat the Bucks was how their wings (Crowder and Iggy) are able to defend Giannis while they also have Bam to defend Giannis, just in case.

Embiid is tricky because of his health and conditioning issue. That I think it would be smart to have a really good center that can back him up. But it doesnt mean we have to overpay for a back-up for him.

I don’t think Ben can play back-up C unless you have a overwhelming firepower offense that can allow you to not play atleast very good defense.

Sixers fall into the same category, in terms of built, as the Raptors, Bucks and Lakers. And between the three, Sixers is more in the middle of the Lakers and the Bucks. I think we have the depth of the Bucks with the talent of the top 2 players of the Lakers. The key is for Ben and Biid to continually trend towards being as good as current Bron and AD.

Playing big is not looking good right now. The Lakers-Rockets series is really an “in your face” example of this.

I actually have a post as response where I said I don’t think bullyball can win against small ball. But the more I watch this game, I think it’s not that impossible.

The blueprint for a team that plays big to beat a smallball team are shown in two Sixers games. 2019 game 7 against the Raptors and 2020 game 3 against the Celtics.

To beat a smallball team, the team that plays big has to win it by having more possessions (by ORebs, not taking care of TOs and defence) and getting a lot more to the line.

It also reminded me of how the Grizzlies (Zbo-Marc) played against the Warriors. The problem back then was that Grizz was just outmatched in talent. So they can keep it close but in the end talent always prevailed.

Its gonna be an uphill battle playing our style against the league favored smallball. It will require Pat Riley level conditioning and motor from our guys. It will also require our guys, outside Embiid, to really step up on offense. We have to reach that level where we can tell Embiid that we will take the load from him on offense so he can focus on defense.

That’s the cards were dealt with and we just have to make the most out of it.

[Arsenal]

Spoiler:

Do you think the league will trend towards a more small ball approach?

Until Adam Silver fixes the glitch, I do think the league will continue to exploit the game deficiency. The dunk simply has to be worth 3 points. That's how you restore balance.

Celts has shown you just need a random second stringer big to beat the Sixers. Sure Embiid can score but it will just empty his tank down the stretch and he can’t win the high octane perimeter offense.

Yeah, but the 2020 Sixers are a bad playoff team to draw any conclusions from, IMO. What if De'Aron Fox or Jimmy Butler are on the roster with Embiid? Or what if we had Jae Crowder and Andre Iguodala instead of the sieves we have on the perimeter and Brown and Tatum can't score as much as efficiently? This series might have gone the other way and maybe the Celtics feel the need to properly play against Embiid. Notice that when we had a real playoff player (Butler), the Raptors were so scared that they made a deadline deal for Gasol to try to slow up Embiid.

Heat has shown you dont need a big to defend Giannis. They’re using Crowder, Iggy and some time Adebayo. Wall him and he’s done.

The wall thing is relatively new (back in the day, ancillary stars didn't try to drive from the perimeter), but the concept of throwing help defenders at bigs has always been effective. Especially if they don't have a star scorer to play with.

I personally think Celts has the best built for how the trend is looking right now. A wing based defense with wings and guards who can score and make plays.

Yeah, they're operating at the top of the trend, but I'm still not sure if their stars are good enough to win the whole thing. Tatum still plays like a giant version of Dlo. What happens when his jumper isn't falling and he needs to get all the way to the rim off the dribble? Or when he needs to defend a real star on the other end (Butler, Leonard, George)? All remains to be seen how he does. Budenholzer made him look like a chump last year when they played him tight in the midrange.

If Rockets beat the Lakers, I think it will really take a hit on the value of bigs in the league.

I think the Rockets should be expected to win that series, though. Harden and Westbrook are the best two halfcourt scorers in the series and they both play on the same team.

Sure you may say it depends on how your team is built. But looking at it, I think Jokic will defer to Murray going forward and we, Lakers and the Magic may only be the teams that will rely heavy on bigs and post a lot.

Probably. But all it takes is one of those ancillary stars to get a legit star perimeter player to put the ball handler/big combination back en vogue.

You look at the Heat and Pistons giving up on Whiteside or Drummond easily like Christian Bale in the big short, shorting the “bigs stocks” early before the bubble burst.

I like the analogy, but I don't know if I'm willing to credit those teams for taking a longview approach. I think the Heat moved off of Whiteside because he was a jerk and I think the Pistons moved off Drummond to open things up for Blake. The Heat are probably going to be paying Bam a pretty big contract soon and the Pistons might even be giving Christian Wood an extension this summer. So who knows if those teams are in the midst of following the smallball trend.

I can see guys like Austin Rivers’ or Trey Burke’s value increasing. Teams may shift towards a 2 combo guard 5 man units like how the Mavs and OKC have done it. Both teams may even set a trend for a 3 guards line-up.

I think guys like that should have always been valued off the bench because they can score off the dribble and need no help generating offense. That's one of the two things that matters in the playoffs. If you have enough perimeter defenders to where you can guard the other teams ball handlers, by all means, go get yourself a Jordan Clarkson.

I can see teams lightening on their frontcourt and loading on the perimeter. This will make us have an even more uphill climb similar to like Nokia when everyone is trending towards becoming a smart phone

Lol another great reference. Personally, I think teams should still aim to have two bigs for their playoff rotation. 2 bigs and 6 perimeter players (a mix of defense and shotcreation) seems like the smartest plan IMO.

I’d consider the Heat as a smallball team given Bam is only 6’9 and their PF is Duncan Robinson. What made them special and just designed to beat the Bucks was how their wings (Crowder and Iggy) are able to defend Giannis while they also have Bam to defend Giannis, just in case.

Embiid is tricky because of his health and conditioning issue. That I think it would be smart to have a really good center that can back him up. But it doesnt mean we have to overpay for a back-up for him.

I don’t think Ben can play back-up C unless you have a overwhelming firepower offense that can allow you to not play atleast very good defense.

Sixers fall into the same category, in terms of built, as the Raptors, Bucks and Lakers. And between the three, Sixers is more in the middle of the Lakers and the Bucks. I think we have the depth of the Bucks with the talent of the top 2 players of the Lakers. The key is for Ben and Biid to continually trend towards being as good as current Bron and AD.

Playing big is not looking good right now. The Lakers-Rockets series is really an “in your face” example of this.

I actually have a post as response where I said I don’t think bullyball can win against small ball. But the more I watch this game, I think it’s not that impossible.

The blueprint for a team that plays big to beat a smallball team are shown in two Sixers games. 2019 game 7 against the Raptors and 2020 game 3 against the Celtics.

To beat a smallball team, the team that plays big has to win it by having more possessions (by ORebs, not taking care of TOs and defence) and getting a lot more to the line.

It also reminded me of how the Grizzlies (Zbo-Marc) played against the Warriors. The problem back then was that Grizz was just outmatched in talent. So they can keep it close but in the end talent always prevailed.

Its gonna be an uphill battle playing our style against the league favored smallball. It will require Pat Riley level conditioning and motor from our guys. It will also require our guys, outside Embiid, to really step up on offense. We have to reach that level where we can tell Embiid that we will take the load from him on offense so he can focus on defense.

That’s the cards were dealt with and we just have to make the most out of it.

All you people claiming we can't play Ben at Center. Please explain the great rim protector that teams like Boston and Houston are using?

Rim protection is OVERRATED. That's dinosaur thinking. It's more important to defend the perimeter, which you can do with 5 wing sized players on the floor.

It's makes all the sense in the world for Ben to be our backup "Center", i.e. be the largest player on our team, surrounded by wings when Embiid is sitting.

[DT RAW]

Agreed. Bens best position in todays NBA is actually center. He would be usined in a 4 out 1 in offense where he sets tons of screens and posts up on mismatches.

He should be our backup center if we are going to keep him.

We really afraid of boston dumping it in to theis with ben on him? By all means please do so.

[76ciology]

Spoiler:

Until Adam Silver fixes the glitch, I do think the league will continue to exploit the game deficiency. The dunk simply has to be worth 3 points. That's how you restore balance.



Yeah, but the 2020 Sixers are a bad playoff team to draw any conclusions from, IMO. What if De'Aron Fox or Jimmy Butler are on the roster with Embiid? Or what if we had Jae Crowder and Andre Iguodala instead of the sieves we have on the perimeter and Brown and Tatum can't score as much as efficiently? This series might have gone the other way and maybe the Celtics feel the need to properly play against Embiid. Notice that when we had a real playoff player (Butler), the Raptors were so scared that they made a deadline deal for Gasol to try to slow up Embiid.



The wall thing is relatively new (back in the day, ancillary stars didn't try to drive from the perimeter), but the concept of throwing help defenders at bigs has always been effective. Especially if they don't have a star scorer to play with.



Yeah, they're operating at the top of the trend, but I'm still not sure if their stars are good enough to win the whole thing. Tatum still plays like a giant version of Dlo. What happens when his jumper isn't falling and he needs to get all the way to the rim off the dribble? Or when he needs to defend a real star on the other end (Butler, Leonard, George)? All remains to be seen how he does. Budenholzer made him look like a chump last year when they played him tight in the midrange.



I think the Rockets should be expected to win that series, though. Harden and Westbrook are the best two halfcourt scorers in the series and they both play on the same team.



Probably. But all it takes is one of those ancillary stars to get a legit star perimeter player to put the ball handler/big combination back en vogue.



I like the analogy, but I don't know if I'm willing to credit those teams for taking a longview approach. I think the Heat moved off of Whiteside because he was a jerk and I think the Pistons moved off Drummond to open things up for Blake. The Heat are probably going to be paying Bam a pretty big contract soon and the Pistons might even be giving Christian Wood an extension this summer. So who knows if those teams are in the midst of following the smallball trend.



I think guys like that should have always been valued off the bench because they can score off the dribble and need no help generating offense. That's one of the two things that matters in the playoffs. If you have enough perimeter defenders to where you can guard the other teams ball handlers, by all means, go get yourself a Jordan Clarkson.



Lol another great reference. Personally, I think teams should still aim to have two bigs for their playoff rotation. 2 bigs and 6 perimeter players (a mix of defense and shotcreation) seems like the smartest plan IMO.

I’d consider the Heat as a smallball team given Bam is only 6’9 and their PF is Duncan Robinson. What made them special and just designed to beat the Bucks was how their wings (Crowder and Iggy) are able to defend Giannis while they also have Bam to defend Giannis, just in case.

Embiid is tricky because of his health and conditioning issue. That I think it would be smart to have a really good center that can back him up. But it doesnt mean we have to overpay for a back-up for him.

I don’t think Ben can play back-up C unless you have a overwhelming firepower offense that can allow you to not play atleast very good defense.

Sixers fall into the same category, in terms of built, as the Raptors, Bucks and Lakers. And between the three, Sixers is more in the middle of the Lakers and the Bucks. I think we have the depth of the Bucks with the talent of the top 2 players of the Lakers. The key is for Ben and Biid to continually trend towards being as good as current Bron and AD.

Playing big is not looking good right now. The Lakers-Rockets series is really an “in your face” example of this.

I actually have a post as response where I said I don’t think bullyball can win against small ball. But the more I watch this game, I think it’s not that impossible.

The blueprint for a team that plays big to beat a smallball team are shown in two Sixers games. 2019 game 7 against the Raptors and 2020 game 3 against the Celtics.

To beat a smallball team, the team that plays big has to win it by having more possessions (by ORebs, not taking care of TOs and defence) and getting a lot more to the line.

It also reminded me of how the Grizzlies (Zbo-Marc) played against the Warriors. The problem back then was that Grizz was just outmatched in talent. So they can keep it close but in the end talent always prevailed.

Its gonna be an uphill battle playing our style against the league favored smallball. It will require Pat Riley level conditioning and motor from our guys. It will also require our guys, outside Embiid, to really step up on offense. We have to reach that level where we can tell Embiid that we will take the load from him on offense so he can focus on defense.

That’s the cards were dealt with and we just have to make the most out of it.

All you people claiming we can't play Ben at Center. Please explain the great rim protector that teams like Boston and Houston are using?

Rim protection is OVERRATED. That's dinosaur thinking. It's more important to defend the perimeter, which you can do with 5 wing sized players on the floor.

It's makes all the sense in the world for Ben to be our backup "Center", i.e. be the largest player on our team, surrounded by wings when Embiid is sitting.

Been saying rim protection is overrated since Okafor and I saw how Brad stevens used guys like Jared Sullinger at C and still be able to play good defense. I and Kobble have been saying the same thing about this trend with rim protection since maybe last season or a couple of seasons ago.

I actually have thought this scenario of Ben at C, during fantasy trade proposals I had with trading Biid.

I’m not saying it will work or not. But We have not seen him play C with large sample size.

And here’s the thing though.. these small ball Cs like Tucker, Theis or Bam can out position him. Tucker just the other night outrebounded LeBron, who has more girth and power. So, it’s likely that the small ball team will have more extra possessions.

And that will just make it worse when they have better firepower who can afford to trade offense of guys like Shake Milton against guys like James Harden.

This is why I said I dont think you can play Ben at C unless you have an overwhelming firepower on offense where you can win games despite having less possessions than the other team.

A good example of this was G1 of Rox vs Lakers. Rox wasn’t just playing small ball. But Rox was able to not be outrebounded. The LAL and Rox have the same number of possessions. And Rox was able to win it by a comfortable margin because their Offense is just more superior than the Lakers.

Thus, like I said, If you want to play smallball you better be sure you have the fire power to play this game. If not (which is our case), you then have to play this non-small ball style where you try to beat a superiorly edged offensive team by having a margin of extra possessions favoring you. This was how Raps was able to beat us in G7 of 2019.

They got 24 more possessions. 65 for Phi and 89 for Raps. It was spurred when they play their frontcourt of Ibaka-Siakam-Gasol.

I’m guessing we’re well awared of this style that we tried to win it that way in G3 of our 2020 series against the Celts. When we had 20 orebs to 3 ORebs for the Celtics. While having 10 more FTAs. The problem that game was we shot the ball below 30% which was the lowest in league history.

So again, if you play Ben at C, it’s OK when you have Harden and Westbrook or that 4 headed 20ppg perimeter scorers of the Celtics. But I dont think you can win it with our current talent at the G and wing positions.

[Arsenal]

We can't win anything with our current trash roster no matter what style we play, so its a total straw man. Of course we need to get the right players to surround Ben. The point is we need to plan for Ben to be our backup Center when Embiid sits, and acquire those players who complement him, instead of WASTING more resources on bigs like $110M to Al Horford.

[Negrodamus]

Wow, Bucks win without Giannis.

[Kobblehead]

Celtics fans were right. Whenever Jae Crowder has a hot shooting night, he gets lazy on defense. He's almost better off when he's laying bricks on the offensive end.

[VDT]

Giannis has been a negative this series. Every superstar tends to stall the offense with his iso plays but it usually pays off. Giannis has been so bad that a team oriented offense with people moving and with Middleton at the featured guy has better results.

It also shows how mediocre Miami is. The teams looked (and should be on paper) equally matched without Giannis.

[Kobblehead]

No surprise there. It makes no sense to run isolation sets for guys that can't score off the dribble.

LeBron, Giannis, Zion, Embiid, Davis, etc. If they're not paired with a star halfcourt option, they ain't winning anything.

[Stanford]

No surprise there. It makes no sense to run isolation sets for guys that can't score off the dribble.

LeBron, Giannis, Zion, Embiid, Davis, etc. If they're not paired with a star halfcourt option, they ain't winning anything.

Let's say the Lakers win the title; what do you think would have happened? How'd they do it?

[76ciology]

No surprise there. It makes no sense to run isolation sets for guys that can't score off the dribble.

LeBron, Giannis, Zion, Embiid, Davis, etc. If they're not paired with a star halfcourt option, they ain't winning anything.

Interesting.

If you don’t run post plays for Embiid, how do you get him his points?

Pick and pop?

I don’t think he has “pogo stick” level athleticism to be a roll man.

And another thing, I find LeBron and Kawhi scoring the same way on isolation. They’ll try to shoot it, or blow by their guy, if the lane is denied then they’ll try to score it by the post. I think putting LeBron in that list is a stretch.

[76ciology]

For Lakers or any team playing big to win the title.

1.) “Grit and Grind” or “Bullyball”

have a big gap in possessions by having a big lead in ORebs, taking care of possessions and more deflections. It also helps to have more FTs than your opponents (more possessions to compensate against high points per possession nature of small ball).

Examples:
- how the Raptors played us in 2019 Game 7 when there have 24 more possessions against us.
- game 3 of how we played against the Celtics this year where we outrebounded them 20 to 3 in Orebs.

2.) “Dunk is better than 3s”

LeBron and AD has to score at high %s (high fg% to match high points per possession nature of drives and 3s)

Recent Example:
- Game 2 of the Rox vs Lakers series

[76ciology]

The problem with the Bucks is they are big but they are playing like a small ball team.

They’re not trying to get more possessions
They’re not scoring 2s at a high %

Giannis is playing like Harden then kicking out to poor 3pt shooters.

To beat Miami.. let the Heat pay with having Duncan Robinson at PF by having more possessions with hurting them by grabbing more ORebs then play better defense on their shooters.

[kuclas]

The problem with the Bucks is they are big but they are playing like a small ball team.

They’re not trying to get more possessions
They’re not scoring 2s at a high %

Giannis is playing like Harden then kicking out to poor 3pt shooters.

To beat Miami.. let the Heat pay with having Duncan Robinson at PF by having more possessions with hurting them by grabbing more ORebs then play better defense on their shooters.

Exactly. But to further it. They need to hunt down herro who is not a good defense. ISO Bledsoe on herro. Drive. The real key to stopping a good shooter like herro is to make them pay when they are Defending you. Like Stevens hunted jj reddick and saric Down the stretch. Causes a tremendous about of pressure on the help defense.

[Kobblehead]

Let's say the Lakers win the title; what do you think would have happened? How'd they do it?

Injuries are always a possibility.

Other than that, I wouldn't have any other predictive answers.

[Kobblehead]

Interesting.

If you don’t run post plays for Embiid, how do you get him his points?

Pick and pop?

I don’t think he has “pogo stick” level athleticism to be a roll man.

And another thing, I find LeBron and Kawhi scoring the same way on isolation. They’ll try to shoot it, or blow by their guy, if the lane is denied then they’ll try to score it by the post. I think putting LeBron in that list is a stretch.

You can run post plays, just at a greatly reduced capacity. More pick & pop and pick & roll. Transition threes as a trailer. Plenty of ways to feature Embiid instead of dumping it into him and watching him get swarmed by help defenders.

Not every roll needs to result in a lob and finish above the rim. Nik Pekovic was one of the best screen and rollers in basketball for years just carving out space with his huge body and finishing below the rim. No reason why Embiid can't do the same.

I don't see Kawhi/LeBron being similar iso players. LeBron is either going to see a driving angle all the way to the cup or he's going to pull up from deep before his dribble. He rarely suddenly pulls up 2/3s of the way into a drive and drills a 10 footer. That's Kawhi's bread and butter and why he's so impossible to stop at times.

[Kobblehead]

So did Masai Ujiri finally mess up with this Siakam contract?

Doesn't look like a max player. Looks like another Tobias Harris out there.