Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory

[X_O_Z]

If I have a guess in what next season holds for the Magic, I would say a major trade for assets-draft picks might be in order. VUC-AG-and Evan i would trade them since these are the team's captains. I want a new era of Magic with a hard reset button because we cannot move forward or win with this current roster of players. As good as VUC has been for us in the past years, he might be the one that has a major trade value with AG coming close second. Evan Might net us a late first round or second round picks. Really, If i had a saying in what we should do for next season is to give the keys to Fultz, try out Chuma and see what we got with him, Isaac will be in the sidelines so we wait for him in 21-22 season. I mean what do we have to lose? In this kind of sport, you play to win and its either you go big, or you go home (trading current roster, draft picks). Tired of running the middle of the pack.

[zaymon]

I believe WeHam have done a good patient job of building a "collection of pieces" however mismatched. I don't feel they've made mistakes beyond missed opportunities in the draft (like everyone). BUT, the real measure of their success will be - can they boldly move from asset accumulation mode to turning some of them into a single piece that works with the ones we keep. That transition could be one big trade or a couple of medium-big trades. Clifford is doing an admirable job of keeping the team competitive and interesting, if limited. A new, bolder coach would likely fit with the transition...I'm, of course, saying what I hope to be true but it would make sense. WeHam have demonstrated that they are infuriatingly patient and level-headed. If there is a big, risky, opportunistic move this offseason, they will look very strong in my eyes...I'm as impatient as anyone but I admire patience in others. We'll see...this is not an easy job.

Voice of reason. Its not smart to write off a front office before they use their assets. Miami was dumpster fire before they signed Butler.

Lol what?

2015-16 : 48-34
16-17: 41-41
17-18: 44- 38
18-19 : 39-43

When execlly they were dumpster fire?



As for Welmtan and Hammond, what execlly they did to sell fanbase into idea they have any clue what they are doing?
Team is capped out for next 3 years. Probably more, because they already have $76M commited to 6 players in 2021-22.

That money does not include Fultz, MCW, DJ, Isaac, Evan, Okeke, 2020 nor 2021 pick. Basically capped out next 4 years anyway. Especially because salary will be declined for all teams in next few years.

So over 3 years they menaged to:
trade Payton for nothing ( nothing for nothing still equaled nothing)
miss on every single second round pick they took on
not tank solid enough for 2018 where they missed on 2 franchize altering talents
overpay Gordon
take on Okeke while guy had ACL tear
waste MLE on Aminu
waste money on Jonathan Simmons


So only positive things they menaged to do is keep Vuc, find solid coach and in 2017 draft Isaac. That's literally it.
Everything else is stuffing roster with incapable basketball players, having no flexibility nor talent to get any better.
People talk about coaches that have ceiling, this two guys are biggest Magic ceiling. They took on Raptors and Bucks and both teams never made significant leaps WITH them, but after them, as new front offices simply had more guts to make major moves.
They don't. They are defensive boxer who never got K.Oed, but lost all fights via judge decision. because he didn't land any punches.

I won't even go into their fundamentally flawed logic of drafting, being suckers for long limbs, thining 7 foot center without basketball skills is lottery pick worth 6# selection, having no guards worth mentioning or thinking how "defense wins championships" while every second playoff game teams score over 115 points , mostly by shooting. While they never got single shooter worth talking about on this damn roster.

I was a bit ironic. Nontheless:
1. From 2016 to 2019 Miami was in a position 90% of posters here define as dumpster fire treadmill team. They were not bad enough to have a high lottery pick but not good enough to contend.
2. They handed bad to average veterans sizeable deals.
Whiteside 4 yr(s) / $98,419,538 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dion Waiters 4 yr(s) / $52,000,000 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Kelly Olynyk 4 yr(s) / $50,000,000
Tyler Johnson 4 yr(s) / $50,000,000
James Johnson 3 yr(s) / $43,295,100

I dont make this stuff up, these are Sacramento Kings level bad contracts. If this was not Pat Riley handing them i would say Vlade Divac. Our veterans look like dream team on g league contracts next to these above.

2. Team is capped out, but veterans are on movable contracts. There is one thread per day on transactions forum asking about AG. Ross is worth a frp after showing he can be on his own 60% of your offense from the bench. Vucevic is now a positive contract ( he always was for me btw). They have clear vision of the team they want to build. Its not guaranteed to succed but they patiently transformed our roster from underachiever to overachiever.

3. a)Payton was nothing and they acted quick to get high 2nd rounder for him (ended in Jerian Grant, and Mozgov who saved us a lot of money.)
b)Second round picks are expected to net nothing most of the time. Iwundu is a good outcome in reality. We barely missed on Graham, but Frazier and Jackson are correct picks from a thought process perspective. You should take hits on wings in the draft.
c)We tanked in 2018. You are one of the posters who i expect to make better research. I dont want to beat a dead horse here, i am also mad and dissapointed we didnt get Doncic (as half of the league)
d) just as you i dont like Gordon as a player on this team, but it appears his contract is positive and he will net us some assets.
e)We got lottery talent in Okeke, outside lottery, at a most crucial position. I will circle it as a win until proven otherwise.
f)Aminu is underrated, especially if you watch 2020 playoffs, he would help a lot of teams. We also basically increased the demand for Gordon by taking Aminu off the market. One more team who needs a versatile defensive forward.
g)Simmons was regarded a steal contract upon his signing. He also got us Fultz. Dont see a problem here.

4. In Milwaukee Hammond was known for making trades in every single trade window. He was one of the most active executives around the league. Hammond left Milwaukee with Giannis, Middleton and Brogdon. 3 years later Bucks best players are Giannis and Middleton while Brogdon shines in Indiana.
In 2016/2017 Toronto Raptors had Lowry, Ibaka, Siakam (who Weltman recommended), VanVleet (who was signed after meeting with Casey and Weltman) and suprisingly Tucker who they didnt resign after Weltman left. Championship core right there. Of course Ujiri was the final decision maker, and he made a bunch of brilliant moves after Weltman left, but they made many great moves when Weltman was there.

5. I disagree with fundamentally flawed logic. Their logic is fine. They go bpa in draft, ideally a wing/forward with positional size and potential shooter. Look how contenders are built in 2020. Starting guards: (Bledsoe, Matthews),( KCP, Green), (Lowry, Vanvleet), (Beverley), (Smart, Walker), (Harris, Murray), (Dragic, Robinson). I will just say lol, keep drafting those guards.

[pepe1991]

Voice of reason. Its not smart to write off a front office before they use their assets. Miami was dumpster fire before they signed Butler.

Lol what?

2015-16 : 48-34
16-17: 41-41
17-18: 44- 38
18-19 : 39-43

When execlly they were dumpster fire?



As for Welmtan and Hammond, what execlly they did to sell fanbase into idea they have any clue what they are doing?
Team is capped out for next 3 years. Probably more, because they already have $76M commited to 6 players in 2021-22.

That money does not include Fultz, MCW, DJ, Isaac, Evan, Okeke, 2020 nor 2021 pick. Basically capped out next 4 years anyway. Especially because salary will be declined for all teams in next few years.

So over 3 years they menaged to:
trade Payton for nothing ( nothing for nothing still equaled nothing)
miss on every single second round pick they took on
not tank solid enough for 2018 where they missed on 2 franchize altering talents
overpay Gordon
take on Okeke while guy had ACL tear
waste MLE on Aminu
waste money on Jonathan Simmons


So only positive things they menaged to do is keep Vuc, find solid coach and in 2017 draft Isaac. That's literally it.
Everything else is stuffing roster with incapable basketball players, having no flexibility nor talent to get any better.
People talk about coaches that have ceiling, this two guys are biggest Magic ceiling. They took on Raptors and Bucks and both teams never made significant leaps WITH them, but after them, as new front offices simply had more guts to make major moves.
They don't. They are defensive boxer who never got K.Oed, but lost all fights via judge decision. because he didn't land any punches.

I won't even go into their fundamentally flawed logic of drafting, being suckers for long limbs, thining 7 foot center without basketball skills is lottery pick worth 6# selection, having no guards worth mentioning or thinking how "defense wins championships" while every second playoff game teams score over 115 points , mostly by shooting. While they never got single shooter worth talking about on this damn roster.

I was a bit ironic. Nontheless:
1. From 2016 to 2019 Miami was in a position 90% of posters here define as dumpster fire treadmill team. They were not bad enough to have a high lottery pick but not good enough to contend.
2. They handed bad to average veterans sizeable deals.
Whiteside 4 yr(s) / $98,419,538 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dion Waiters 4 yr(s) / $52,000,000 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Kelly Olynyk 4 yr(s) / $50,000,000
Tyler Johnson 4 yr(s) / $50,000,000
James Johnson 3 yr(s) / $43,295,100

I dont make this stuff up, these are Sacramento Kings level bad contracts. If this was not Pat Riley handing them i would say Vlade Divac. Our veterans look like dream team on g league contracts next to these above.

2. Team is capped out, but veterans are on movable contracts. There is one thread per day on transactions forum asking about AG. Ross is worth a frp after showing he can be on his own 60% of your offense from the bench. Vucevic is now a positive contract ( he always was for me btw). They have clear vision of the team they want to build. Its not guaranteed to succed but they patiently transformed our roster from underachiever to overachiever.

3. a)Payton was nothing and they acted quick to get high 2nd rounder for him (ended in Jerian Grant, and Mozgov who saved us a lot of money.)
b)Second round picks are expected to net nothing most of the time. Iwundu is a good outcome in reality. We barely missed on Graham, but Frazier and Jackson are correct picks from a thought process perspective. You should take hits on wings in the draft.
c)We tanked in 2018. You are one of the posters who i expect to make better research. I dont want to beat a dead horse here, i am also mad and dissapointed we didnt get Doncic (as half of the league)
d) just as you i dont like Gordon as a player on this team, but it appears his contract is positive and he will net us some assets.
e)We got lottery talent in Okeke, outside lottery, at a most crucial position. I will circle it as a win until proven otherwise.
f)Aminu is underrated, especially if you watch 2020 playoffs, he would help a lot of teams. We also basically increased the demand for Gordon by taking Aminu off the market. One more team who needs a versatile defensive forward.
g)Simmons was regarded a steal contract upon his signing. He also got us Fultz. Dont see a problem here.

4. In Milwaukee Hammond was known for making trades in every single trade window. He was one of the most active executives around the league. Hammond left Milwaukee with Giannis, Middleton and Brogdon. 3 years later Bucks best players are Giannis and Middleton while Brogdon shines in Indiana.
In 2016/2017 Toronto Raptors had Lowry, Ibaka, Siakam (who Weltman recommended), VanVleet (who was signed after meeting with Casey and Weltman) and suprisingly Tucker who they didnt resign after Weltman left. Championship core right there. Of course Ujiri was the final decision maker, and he made a bunch of brilliant moves after Weltman left, but they made many great moves when Weltman was there.

5. I disagree with fundamentally flawed logic. Their logic is fine. They go bpa in draft, ideally a wing/forward with positional size and potential shooter. Look how contenders are built in 2020. Starting guards: (Bledsoe, Matthews),( KCP, Green), (Lowry, Vanvleet), (Beverley), (Smart, Walker), (Harris, Murray), (Dragic, Robinson). I will just say lol, keep drafting those guards.

I just don't have desire nor time to go through it all, point by point.
The thing is, Heat were in nba finals in 2014, and 6 years later they will probably be in ECF, with same coach and with Pat Riley. Guy is proven.
What Hammond, Weltman have in common is that not a single team they had played nba finals under them. Ever.

Therfore it's safe to make assumtion that Pat Riley knows what he is doing and they ...don't really have good track record, to say a least. I mean Hammond as GM never passed first round of playoffs, while being GM for over 10 years now.
Weltman was something-something in Raptors, and where they like to give him credits for their bench, let's face it , without Kawhi trade and Durant achillie injury,,along with Klay ACL tear, would anybody even remember Raptors or anything about his alleged role? Not really.

5. I disagree with fundamentally flawed logic. Their logic is fine. They go bpa in draft, ideally a wing/forward with positional size and potential shooter. Look how contenders are built in 2020. Starting guards: (Bledsoe, Matthews),( KCP, Green), (Lowry, Vanvleet), (Beverley), (Smart, Walker), (Harris, Murray), (Dragic, Robinson). I will just say lol, keep drafting those guards

Celtics: Kemba Walker- allstar
Raptors. Lowry- allstar
Clippers - George - allstar
Nuggets- Murray- allstar level
Houston- Harden, Westbrook, Gordon
Heat- Dragic; Butler (allstars)

I will just say get a hell away with cherrypicking nonsense. 9 of last 19 MVPs were guards. Including 4 in a row before Giannis winning last year.
Drafting center in lottery has been proven usless time and time agian. For every Embiid you have army of Alex Lens and Nerlens Noel's and Jah Okafor's of the world. You can get away with starting average center.

[Skin]

You can get away with starting average center.

This is my entire premise for wanting to exchange Vuc for another asset. Thank you for finally saying this.

With Isaac hurt, it's the perfect time to take 1 step back in order to take 2 steps forward.

[The Effect]

Did someone say Aminu is underrated???
Im assuming that based on something they read and not anything they have seen because no one who has watched aminu play the past 9 years will say hes underrated. He was one of the worst free agent signings of 2019 and has no place on a team that isnt tanking. Go ask the blazers fans how they felt about him leaving and see how quickly they start laughing. He is the very definition of a SCRUB. he does nothing well. he cant score, he cant rebound, cant pass etc....yet someone thinks hes underrated???

PLEAASEE someone explain how aminu is anything BUT the worst player on a sub .500 team

[Bensational]

It's crazy to look at the Heat and think they're really just a product of one maybe two offseasons.

Butler, Herro, Nunn, Crowder - all new additions.

Bam - 3rd year player freed up after trading Whiteside
Robinson - 2nd year player

Dragic is the only name they've had since the Heatles.

Whiteside, Richardson, Winslow, James Johnson - all gone.

And here they are about to go to the conference finals. Well done.

[MartinsIzAfraud]

It's crazy to look at the Heat and think they're really just a product of one maybe two offseasons.

Butler, Herro, Nunn, Crowder - all new additions.

Bam - 3rd year player freed up after trading Whiteside
Robinson - 2nd year player

Dragic is the only name they've had since the Heatles.

Whiteside, Richardson, Winslow, James Johnson - all gone.

And here they are about to go to the conference finals. Well done.

Nunn and Robinson were G Team & Summer League finds that have absolutely paid off. Orlando can't even find decent talent in the 2nd round.

Pat wouldn't have sat and evaluated the roster year 1, he's playing chess while our FO is learning the ABC's.

[MagicFan4Lyfe]

Would be interested to see what type of HCs we would be linked to. What’s attractive to this Orlando Roster?

I'm guessing Clifford has one of the least hottest seats in the entire NBA.

I get the vibes ownership is thrilled with the job he and his staff have done so far.

Agree. And this is why I have stopped watching this garbage. We know what the outcome is: 7-8th seed and first round ouster every year. Yeah no thanks. This is Hennigan’s team sprinkled with a minor tweak here and there:

Vuc, AG, Tross, Fournier, DJ- all are big part of the team and all are Hennigan guys.

We have the least creative and unmotivated front office and ownership group. I actually like Coach Cliff but coaches can’t do much with no talent.

[Skin]

It's crazy to look at the Heat and think they're really just a product of one maybe two offseasons.

Butler, Herro, Nunn, Crowder - all new additions.

Bam - 3rd year player freed up after trading Whiteside
Robinson - 2nd year player

Dragic is the only name they've had since the Heatles.

Whiteside, Richardson, Winslow, James Johnson - all gone.

And here they are about to go to the conference finals. Well done.

Simply put, Riley knows how to assemble talent that works with each other. The combinations can vary and he knows it.

Not like we have done at all so far. Have we ever seen a new GM running so long with the prior fired GM's guys for so long??? Is this unprecedented? WeHam has had the last 2-3 years to trade Henny's guys for optimal value in order to reshape our roster. Failure to do so has easily been our biggest blunder.

New GM has to form the team in his image. They seem to operate under the freedom to take as long as they like.

[Kent]

Have we ever seen a new GM running so long with the prior fired GM's guys for so long??? Is this unprecedented? WeHam has had the last 2-3 years to trade Henny's guys for optimal value in order to reshape our roster. Failure to do so has easily been our biggest blunder.

New GM has to form the team in his image. They seem to operate under the freedom to take as long as they like.

It's not uncommon and I know I don't have to tell you this...

Making moves for the sake of it isn't the best thing to do.

Besides, look at what Elton Brand did, reforming the Sixers' roster in his image.

He arguably made them worse.

At least WeHam's teams have done more than Henny's.

[Skin]

Have we ever seen a new GM running so long with the prior fired GM's guys for so long??? Is this unprecedented? WeHam has had the last 2-3 years to trade Henny's guys for optimal value in order to reshape our roster. Failure to do so has easily been our biggest blunder.

New GM has to form the team in his image. They seem to operate under the freedom to take as long as they like.

It's not uncommon and I know I don't have to tell you this...

Making moves for the sake of it isn't the best thing to do.

Besides, look at what Elton Brand did, reforming the Sixers' roster in his image.

He arguably made them worse.

At least WeHam's teams have done more than Henny's.

I can't judge WeHam on Elton Brand or any other GM. I have to EXPECT that they are the right guys for the job. Otherwise, we call for a new front office. Nobody wants to be a fan of a team believing that their GM is only capable of making bad moves.

Also should clarify that losing doesn't necessarily mean their moves are bad. If the intent is to rebuild in the short term with youth, and win in the long term, then losing early on is part of the expectation.

If the intent is to rebuild with vets, then hell yes, losing will mean the GM made bad moves. All has to do with short term vs long term expectations.

Saying WeHam's teams have done more doesn't mean they're doing a good job, if the team is maxed out as an early 1st round exit playoff team year after year. That is not an accomplish worth recognizing.

But looking at WeHam's trade record in Orlando, I think they've at least given us reason to be hopeful. Pulling off the Markelle trade bought a lot of credibility in my eyes. But it cannot be their last good move. They have to stack more good moves.

[pepe1991]

You can get away with starting average center.

This is my entire premise for wanting to exchange Vuc for another asset. Thank you for finally saying this.

With Isaac hurt, it's the perfect time to take 1 step back in order to take 2 steps forward.

I don't mind trade anybody, including Vuc. Problem with current landscape of NBA if you trade him, you won't land star, you will still be over cap space, and money will still be wasted on unproven players like Isaac and Fultz ( if you don't take some massive exp. contracts in return ) and you won't take 1 but 10 steps beck without any objective chance to make steps forward in near future.

I just don't see scenario where Isaac is back and healthy for next 5 years. I really don't see scenario where he ever becomes +70 games a year player.
I don't see scenario where Fultz is anything more than young Bledsoe with even worst jumpshot.
I don't see scenario where Bamba is starting center on nba team that is not actively tanking.

If we play around trade Vuc scenario for offseason and let's say Magic trade him for Budy Hield.

This is how Magic salary cap looks going forward:
$25M to Hield
$18M Gordon
$17M Evan Fournier
$13,5M Ross
$12 M Fultz
$10M Aminu
$7,3M Isaac
$6M Bamba


addition of 2 picks , Okeke and 2020 pick, another $6M gone. Add Mozgov dead cap $5,5M.
This team is not better than last year, this team also isn't bad enough to finish in top 5 record. They are 30-52 team.
On surface everybody can see this team has no starting C nor anybody who can they play offense through. You basically flipped Vuc for Evan Fournier with different skin color.

And this is where this strategey is usless:

2021-22
$23M for Hield
$16 M Gordon
$13,5 Ross
$10,2 Aminu
$ 7,6 Bamba

Okeke + 2020 +2021 ( lottery pick, i used salary of 8th pick) = $11M

Fultz exstension base salary $14M, Isaac base per year salary $18M .
Team already is capped out on $113M in 9 players

And no matter who you trade, salary cap, after Fultz and Isaac exstensions ,and flipping Vuc salary for anybody but exp. contract keeps Magic over cap. Regardless of what you do with Evan, this team simly DOES NOT have cap space for years to come.

Magic already put both legs in concrete floor and they now just have to follow through this "young players core" atrocity of Isaac, Fultz and Bamba with new contracts because Weltman and Hammon job are depending on them.
Spoiler alert: it won't work. They will get fired and team will kickstart new rebuild around 2022 no matter what we do today, because they overvalue young average core and in same time show zero desire to make big trades,sell assets or gear up for full contening nor full tank. They prefer commiting to nothing, while having no flexibility (also created by them ).

Where Magic on surface do look like "solid team" , once you dig deep into mediocrity and/or incapability of their young players to play healthy, or play in general, and see how whole team is based around 3 players from different "era" you get why rebuilding Magic is almost impossible task without getting yourself fired.
IMO, going balls deep in some Evan, Gordon, pick for Beal, Aminu ,Bamba for SF trade still makes more sense than just flipping Vuc to another big contract and hoping some underaged teen will save your franchise, while, in mean time, you don't have cap space to add anybody for years to come.

[Skin]

You can get away with starting average center.

This is my entire premise for wanting to exchange Vuc for another asset. Thank you for finally saying this.

With Isaac hurt, it's the perfect time to take 1 step back in order to take 2 steps forward.

I don't mind trade anybody, including Vuc. Problem with current landscape of NBA if you trade him, you won't land star, you will still be over cap space, and money will still be wasted on unproven players like Isaac and Fultz ( if you don't take some massive exp. contracts in return ) and you won't take 1 but 10 steps beck without any objective chance to make steps forward in near future.

I just don't see scenario where Isaac is back and healthy for next 5 years. I really don't see scenario where he ever becomes +70 games a year player.
I don't see scenario where Fultz is anything more than young Bledsoe with even worst jumpshot.
I don't see scenario where Bamba is starting center on nba team that is not actively tanking.

If we play around trade Vuc scenario for offseason and let's say Magic trade him for Budy Hield.

This is how Magic salary cap looks going forward:
$25M to Hield
$18M Gordon
$17M Evan Fournier
$13,5M Ross
$12 M Fultz
$10M Aminu
$7,3M Isaac
$6M Bamba


addition of 2 picks , Okeke and 2020 pick, another $6M gone. Add Mozgov dead cap $5,5M.
This team is not better than last year, this team also isn't bad enough to finish in top 5 record. They are 30-52 team.
On surface everybody can see this team has no starting C nor anybody who can they play offense through. You basically flipped Vuc for Evan Fournier with different skin color.

And this is where this strategey is usless:

2021-22
$23M for Hield
$16 M Gordon
$13,5 Ross
$10,2 Aminu
$ 7,6 Bamba

Okeke + 2020 +2021 ( lottery pick, i used salary of 8th pick) = $11M

Fultz exstension base salary $14M, Isaac base per year salary $18M .
Team already is capped out on $113M in 9 players

And no matter who you trade, salary cap, after Fultz and Isaac exstensions ,and flipping Vuc salary for anybody but exp. contract keeps Magic over cap. Regardless of what you do with Evan, this team simly DOES NOT have cap space for years to come.

Magic already put both legs in concrete floor and they now just have to follow through this "young players core" atrocity of Isaac, Fultz and Bamba with new contracts because Weltman and Hammon job are depending on them.
Spoiler alert: it won't work. They will get fired and team will kickstart new rebuild around 2022 no matter what we do today, because they overvalue young average core and in same time show zero desire to make big trades,sell assets or gear up for full contening nor full tank. They prefer commiting to nothing, while having no flexibility (also created by them ).

Where Magic on surface do look like "solid team" , once you dig deep into mediocrity and/or incapability of their young players to play healthy, or play in general, and see how whole team is based around 3 players from different "era" you get why rebuilding Magic is almost impossible task without getting yourself fired.
IMO, going balls deep in some Evan, Gordon, pick for Beal, Aminu ,Bamba for SF trade still makes more sense than just flipping Vuc to another big contract and hoping some underaged teen will save your franchise, while, in mean time, you don't have cap space to add anybody for years to come.

Expectation for getting a star in return for Vuc is unreasonable, because like you said, you don't need a C like him in order to win.

Trading him for another player is not my first choice. It has to be the right kind of player. I'd rather trade him for a player or players on short contracts...maybe you take a guy with 2 years left if a good draft pick is attached to it. This year is actually a great year to get a pick in the 15-25 range. That would be huge for the Magic. Or maybe he can be used with 15 to move up.

-----

I'll say this... if Fultz, Isaac and Bamba are who you say then we will have a new front office before anything improves. ...and then you really are talking 2030 (at the earliest) as a possible return to legitimacy. Screw ownership, the front office and all the players if those 3 all fail us.

[Xatticus]

People know answer to a question can Bamba, Fultz,Isaac and Gordon be cornerstones. Some just don't like the answer. So they look for excues by pointing fingers in any other direction.

This is just completely backwards. You only look to the future for hope when the present sucks. That's where we are. Those four players represent the little hope that fans of this franchise still hold.

No player is drafted for what they are. They are drafted for what they might become. It's unreasonable to expect first-year players to outperform seventh-year veterans, but it's exceptionally shortsighted to let that impede the development of the only potentially valuable long-term assets you have. Those four are the only players on our roster that have substantial potential upside remaining in their development. Each of them still possesses more upside than anyone other player on this roster. We don't know what the future holds for them, but it is certainly looking more and more pessimistic as time goes by. I have zero doubt that each one would look far more appealing in an organization that is better at developing talent, but this is just one of our many shortcomings. It's pretty damned difficult to construct a competitive team when you overpay to retain players, don't make trades, don't draft well, and fail to develop what you do draft.

If, eight years into the tenures of this crop, we have a cumulative win rate of less than 38% and a grand total of two playoff wins, then I'd hope that some substantial organizational restructuring will have taken place, as it would represent a colossal failure.

[pepe1991]

People know answer to a question can Bamba, Fultz,Isaac and Gordon be cornerstones. Some just don't like the answer. So they look for excues by pointing fingers in any other direction.

This is just completely backwards. You only look to the future for hope when the present sucks. That's where we are. Those four players represent the little hope that fans of this franchise still hold.

No player is drafted for what they are. They are drafted for what they might become. It's unreasonable to expect first-year players to outperform seventh-year veterans, but it's exceptionally shortsighted to let that impede the development of the only potentially valuable long-term assets you have. Those four are the only players on our roster that have substantial potential upside remaining in their development. Each of them still possesses more upside than anyone other player on this roster. We don't know what the future holds for them, but it is certainly looking more and more pessimistic as time goes by. I have zero doubt that each one would look far more appealing in an organization that is better at developing talent, but this is just one of our many shortcomings. It's pretty damned difficult to construct a competitive team when you overpay to retain players, don't make trades, don't draft well, and fail to develop what you do draft.

If, eight years into the tenures of this crop, we have a cumulative win rate of less than 38% and a grand total of two playoff wins, then I'd hope that some substantial organizational restructuring will have taken place, as it would represent a colossal failure.

Still, those are players franchise is investing money and time to take them somwhere.
And let's be 100% honest here,those are not guys that will really get you anywhere.

Gordon is next year 7th year pro, who spent 7 of Magic 9 rebuild years on that team. After year 4, when he was 22, growth of him as a player simply stopped. He is stailing and being same player for 2 years straight. it's unreasonable to expect any growth at this point.
( 4 years, $80 000 000 contract ). Long term investment that is not paying off.

Isaac had nice development, he never had offensive side of a game developed but that's not main issue with him. It's his health.
It's unreasonable to expect more than 50-60 games a year and injury- riddled career going forward if he can't stay health at such young age already. I might be wrong but his left leg injuries date back to highschool?

( $ 7 362 000 of cap space dead for 2020-21 season, pending FA, questionable recovery, 4th major injury on same leg ).


Fultz. 3rd year player babied by calling him rookie.
No improvments after year and half of rehab in his outside shooting stroke. No surgery done. Very little reasons to belive he will one day just rework his shot from condition. Very expensive rookie contract. Very average season even by rookie standards ( witch, he is not ).
$12 200 000 commited for next season, pending RFA. Expensivs QO worth $10M


Mo Bamba. Very low value as player, gets all benefits of a doubt ( for example had to leave bubble to recover from condition, cleared to practice 4 days after Magic were eliminated from playoffs )
Very little development from year to year two. Over time lost PT to third string C. Questionable durability, mobility, agility, athletis, intangibles...
Makes $ 6 000 000 next year, 4th year option worth $ 7,5M, QO worth almost $11M


And where on surface non of them is breaking your bank and they are on allegedly "cheap rookie deals", their cumulative salaries, along with pending FAs actually stuff cap space.

Magic will, for service of Bamba, Isaac and Gordon ( where in reality 1 won't play) still cash in $31 400 000. Again, they will only play just Bamba and Gordon for that money.

Cap space of this team while being forced to blindfolded exstension of Isaac and benefits of a doubt for Fultz is living nighmare.

[zaymon]

Lol what?

2015-16 : 48-34
16-17: 41-41
17-18: 44- 38
18-19 : 39-43

When execlly they were dumpster fire?



As for Welmtan and Hammond, what execlly they did to sell fanbase into idea they have any clue what they are doing?
Team is capped out for next 3 years. Probably more, because they already have $76M commited to 6 players in 2021-22.

That money does not include Fultz, MCW, DJ, Isaac, Evan, Okeke, 2020 nor 2021 pick. Basically capped out next 4 years anyway. Especially because salary will be declined for all teams in next few years.

So over 3 years they menaged to:
trade Payton for nothing ( nothing for nothing still equaled nothing)
miss on every single second round pick they took on
not tank solid enough for 2018 where they missed on 2 franchize altering talents
overpay Gordon
take on Okeke while guy had ACL tear
waste MLE on Aminu
waste money on Jonathan Simmons


So only positive things they menaged to do is keep Vuc, find solid coach and in 2017 draft Isaac. That's literally it.
Everything else is stuffing roster with incapable basketball players, having no flexibility nor talent to get any better.
People talk about coaches that have ceiling, this two guys are biggest Magic ceiling. They took on Raptors and Bucks and both teams never made significant leaps WITH them, but after them, as new front offices simply had more guts to make major moves.
They don't. They are defensive boxer who never got K.Oed, but lost all fights via judge decision. because he didn't land any punches.

I won't even go into their fundamentally flawed logic of drafting, being suckers for long limbs, thining 7 foot center without basketball skills is lottery pick worth 6# selection, having no guards worth mentioning or thinking how "defense wins championships" while every second playoff game teams score over 115 points , mostly by shooting. While they never got single shooter worth talking about on this damn roster.

I was a bit ironic. Nontheless:
1. From 2016 to 2019 Miami was in a position 90% of posters here define as dumpster fire treadmill team. They were not bad enough to have a high lottery pick but not good enough to contend.
2. They handed bad to average veterans sizeable deals.
Whiteside 4 yr(s) / $98,419,538 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dion Waiters 4 yr(s) / $52,000,000 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Kelly Olynyk 4 yr(s) / $50,000,000
Tyler Johnson 4 yr(s) / $50,000,000
James Johnson 3 yr(s) / $43,295,100

I dont make this stuff up, these are Sacramento Kings level bad contracts. If this was not Pat Riley handing them i would say Vlade Divac. Our veterans look like dream team on g league contracts next to these above.

2. Team is capped out, but veterans are on movable contracts. There is one thread per day on transactions forum asking about AG. Ross is worth a frp after showing he can be on his own 60% of your offense from the bench. Vucevic is now a positive contract ( he always was for me btw). They have clear vision of the team they want to build. Its not guaranteed to succed but they patiently transformed our roster from underachiever to overachiever.

3. a)Payton was nothing and they acted quick to get high 2nd rounder for him (ended in Jerian Grant, and Mozgov who saved us a lot of money.)
b)Second round picks are expected to net nothing most of the time. Iwundu is a good outcome in reality. We barely missed on Graham, but Frazier and Jackson are correct picks from a thought process perspective. You should take hits on wings in the draft.
c)We tanked in 2018. You are one of the posters who i expect to make better research. I dont want to beat a dead horse here, i am also mad and dissapointed we didnt get Doncic (as half of the league)
d) just as you i dont like Gordon as a player on this team, but it appears his contract is positive and he will net us some assets.
e)We got lottery talent in Okeke, outside lottery, at a most crucial position. I will circle it as a win until proven otherwise.
f)Aminu is underrated, especially if you watch 2020 playoffs, he would help a lot of teams. We also basically increased the demand for Gordon by taking Aminu off the market. One more team who needs a versatile defensive forward.
g)Simmons was regarded a steal contract upon his signing. He also got us Fultz. Dont see a problem here.

4. In Milwaukee Hammond was known for making trades in every single trade window. He was one of the most active executives around the league. Hammond left Milwaukee with Giannis, Middleton and Brogdon. 3 years later Bucks best players are Giannis and Middleton while Brogdon shines in Indiana.
In 2016/2017 Toronto Raptors had Lowry, Ibaka, Siakam (who Weltman recommended), VanVleet (who was signed after meeting with Casey and Weltman) and suprisingly Tucker who they didnt resign after Weltman left. Championship core right there. Of course Ujiri was the final decision maker, and he made a bunch of brilliant moves after Weltman left, but they made many great moves when Weltman was there.

5. I disagree with fundamentally flawed logic. Their logic is fine. They go bpa in draft, ideally a wing/forward with positional size and potential shooter. Look how contenders are built in 2020. Starting guards: (Bledsoe, Matthews),( KCP, Green), (Lowry, Vanvleet), (Beverley), (Smart, Walker), (Harris, Murray), (Dragic, Robinson). I will just say lol, keep drafting those guards.

I just don't have desire nor time to go through it all, point by point.
The thing is, Heat were in nba finals in 2014, and 6 years later they will probably be in ECF, with same coach and with Pat Riley. Guy is proven.
What Hammond, Weltman have in common is that not a single team they had played nba finals under them. Ever.

Therfore it's safe to make assumtion that Pat Riley knows what he is doing and they ...don't really have good track record, to say a least. I mean Hammond as GM never passed first round of playoffs, while being GM for over 10 years now.
Weltman was something-something in Raptors, and where they like to give him credits for their bench, let's face it , without Kawhi trade and Durant achillie injury,,along with Klay ACL tear, would anybody even remember Raptors or anything about his alleged role? Not really.

5. I disagree with fundamentally flawed logic. Their logic is fine. They go bpa in draft, ideally a wing/forward with positional size and potential shooter. Look how contenders are built in 2020. Starting guards: (Bledsoe, Matthews),( KCP, Green), (Lowry, Vanvleet), (Beverley), (Smart, Walker), (Harris, Murray), (Dragic, Robinson). I will just say lol, keep drafting those guards

Celtics: Kemba Walker- allstar
Raptors. Lowry- allstar
Clippers - George - allstar
Nuggets- Murray- allstar level
Houston- Harden, Westbrook, Gordon
Heat- Dragic; Butler (allstars)

I will just say get a hell away with cherrypicking nonsense. 9 of last 19 MVPs were guards. Including 4 in a row before Giannis winning last year.
Drafting center in lottery has been proven usless time and time agian. For every Embiid you have army of Alex Lens and Nerlens Noel's and Jah Okafor's of the world. You can get away with starting average center.

I was not cherry picking. I listed all guards from contenders, you can also add Harden it doesnt change anything.
Boston- Hornets refused to resign Walker. Celtics get him for nothing ( sign and trade rozier)
Raptors- Lowry was 24 th pick, bounced between teams before landing in Toronto
Clippers- since when George is a guard? He is a 6'8 wing in mold of what Weltman is searching for
Heat- since when Butler is a guard ? He is a 6'7 wing in mold of what Weltman is searching for. Dragic is 45th pick.
Nuggets- Murray was underwhelming until now, he didnt prove anything yet.
Rockets- You obviously draft generational talent regardless of position, but Rockets didnt draft any of its guards.

What specific exemple supports your case ? I dont see any. Its not even your case, you are known to be against drafting smaller guards so i dont understand your point. I agree that drafting centers is usually not a good idea, i was against drafting Bamba, but you cant deny that skilled centers are still valueable. All other draft picks outside of Bamba were wings/ forwards.

Yes Riley is proven, but he is 75 years old, he had time to prove himself. He was hired by Miami in 1995, first as a trainer and then in 2003 as president. He needed 11 years to win a championship in Miami.
Weltman didnt prove anything but he still has time to do it. He did ok until now. Not amazing, but also without major mistakes. We were in a really bad spot 3 years ago.

[Xatticus]

People know answer to a question can Bamba, Fultz,Isaac and Gordon be cornerstones. Some just don't like the answer. So they look for excues by pointing fingers in any other direction.

This is just completely backwards. You only look to the future for hope when the present sucks. That's where we are. Those four players represent the little hope that fans of this franchise still hold.

No player is drafted for what they are. They are drafted for what they might become. It's unreasonable to expect first-year players to outperform seventh-year veterans, but it's exceptionally shortsighted to let that impede the development of the only potentially valuable long-term assets you have. Those four are the only players on our roster that have substantial potential upside remaining in their development. Each of them still possesses more upside than anyone other player on this roster. We don't know what the future holds for them, but it is certainly looking more and more pessimistic as time goes by. I have zero doubt that each one would look far more appealing in an organization that is better at developing talent, but this is just one of our many shortcomings. It's pretty damned difficult to construct a competitive team when you overpay to retain players, don't make trades, don't draft well, and fail to develop what you do draft.

If, eight years into the tenures of this crop, we have a cumulative win rate of less than 38% and a grand total of two playoff wins, then I'd hope that some substantial organizational restructuring will have taken place, as it would represent a colossal failure.

Still, those are players franchise is investing money and time to take them somwhere.
And let's be 100% honest here,those are not guys that will really get you anywhere.

Gordon is next year 7th year pro, who spent 7 of Magic 9 rebuild years on that team. After year 4, when he was 22, growth of him as a player simply stopped. He is stailing and being same player for 2 years straight. it's unreasonable to expect any growth at this point.
( 4 years, $80 000 000 contract ). Long term investment that is not paying off.

Isaac had nice development, he never had offensive side of a game developed but that's not main issue with him. It's his health.
It's unreasonable to expect more than 50-60 games a year and injury- riddled career going forward if he can't stay health at such young age already. I might be wrong but his left leg injuries date back to highschool?

( $ 7 362 000 of cap space dead for 2020-21 season, pending FA, questionable recovery, 4th major injury on same leg ).


Fultz. 3rd year player babied by calling him rookie.
No improvments after year and half of rehab in his outside shooting stroke. No surgery done. Very little reasons to belive he will one day just rework his shot from condition. Very expensive rookie contract. Very average season even by rookie standards ( witch, he is not ).
$12 200 000 commited for next season, pending RFA. Expensivs QO worth $10M


Mo Bamba. Very low value as player, gets all benefits of a doubt ( for example had to leave bubble to recover from condition, cleared to practice 4 days after Magic were eliminated from playoffs )
Very little development from year to year two. Over time lost PT to third string C. Questionable durability, mobility, agility, athletis, intangibles...
Makes $ 6 000 000 next year, 4th year option worth $ 7,5M, QO worth almost $11M


And where on surface non of them is breaking your bank and they are on allegedly "cheap rookie deals", their cumulative salaries, along with pending FAs actually stuff cap space.

Magic will, for service of Bamba, Isaac and Gordon ( where in reality 1 won't play) still cash in $31 400 000. Again, they will only play just Bamba and Gordon for that money.

Cap space of this team while being forced to blindfolded exstension of Isaac and benefits of a doubt for Fultz is living nighmare.

I agree with almost all of this. It just doesn't look good right now.

I did think we saw some progress from Fultz' shot as the season wore on, but I still don't like it and I'm not optimistic that the new form he uses from three is going to be viable, but we will see.

This front office has a lot riding on the Fultz and Isaac extensions. It would behoove them to get those done early as the cap holds are going to be massive. I don't even know how they begin to negotiate a deal with Fultz. I'd hope that it isn't any more expensive than his current deal. I would try to extend Isaac as early as possible and I'd give him four years if it netted us a significant injury discount similar to what Curry got on his second deal. It's risky for both sides, but I don't know that I'd want to gamble on a short-term contract if I'm either party.

I think Gordon has improved his distribution quite a bit and I think he'd be worth his contract to some teams, but we aren't one of them. Anyone with title aspirations could use him to log heavy defensive minutes against the abundance of quality wings you are going to encounter in the playoffs. I wouldn't trade him to balance the roster. I'd want future assets back.

I think we could get well under the cap if we really wanted to by getting off of the Vucevic and Gordon contracts, but I just don't see the point of doing so unless we are going to tear this down and use the cap space take back bad money for talent/picks. I can't imagine what we would use cap space on in free agency that would change our fortunes.

[BadMofoPimp]

I am all in on the Heat this playoffs. I hate Lebron and the Lakes while the Heat is loaded with talent built from 2nd rounders, Undrafted Free Agents and castoffs from other teams. Plus, they are a Florida based team.

[Skin]

People know answer to a question can Bamba, Fultz,Isaac and Gordon be cornerstones. Some just don't like the answer. So they look for excues by pointing fingers in any other direction.

This is just completely backwards. You only look to the future for hope when the present sucks. That's where we are. Those four players represent the little hope that fans of this franchise still hold.

No player is drafted for what they are. They are drafted for what they might become. It's unreasonable to expect first-year players to outperform seventh-year veterans, but it's exceptionally shortsighted to let that impede the development of the only potentially valuable long-term assets you have. Those four are the only players on our roster that have substantial potential upside remaining in their development. Each of them still possesses more upside than anyone other player on this roster. We don't know what the future holds for them, but it is certainly looking more and more pessimistic as time goes by. I have zero doubt that each one would look far more appealing in an organization that is better at developing talent, but this is just one of our many shortcomings. It's pretty damned difficult to construct a competitive team when you overpay to retain players, don't make trades, don't draft well, and fail to develop what you do draft.

If, eight years into the tenures of this crop, we have a cumulative win rate of less than 38% and a grand total of two playoff wins, then I'd hope that some substantial organizational restructuring will have taken place, as it would represent a colossal failure.

Still, those are players franchise is investing money and time to take them somwhere.
And let's be 100% honest here,those are not guys that will really get you anywhere.

Gordon is next year 7th year pro, who spent 7 of Magic 9 rebuild years on that team. After year 4, when he was 22, growth of him as a player simply stopped. He is stailing and being same player for 2 years straight. it's unreasonable to expect any growth at this point.
( 4 years, $80 000 000 contract ). Long term investment that is not paying off.

Isaac had nice development, he never had offensive side of a game developed but that's not main issue with him. It's his health.
It's unreasonable to expect more than 50-60 games a year and injury- riddled career going forward if he can't stay health at such young age already. I might be wrong but his left leg injuries date back to highschool?

( $ 7 362 000 of cap space dead for 2020-21 season, pending FA, questionable recovery, 4th major injury on same leg ).


Fultz. 3rd year player babied by calling him rookie.
No improvments after year and half of rehab in his outside shooting stroke. No surgery done. Very little reasons to belive he will one day just rework his shot from condition. Very expensive rookie contract. Very average season even by rookie standards ( witch, he is not ).
$12 200 000 commited for next season, pending RFA. Expensivs QO worth $10M


Mo Bamba. Very low value as player, gets all benefits of a doubt ( for example had to leave bubble to recover from condition, cleared to practice 4 days after Magic were eliminated from playoffs )
Very little development from year to year two. Over time lost PT to third string C. Questionable durability, mobility, agility, athletis, intangibles...
Makes $ 6 000 000 next year, 4th year option worth $ 7,5M, QO worth almost $11M


And where on surface non of them is breaking your bank and they are on allegedly "cheap rookie deals", their cumulative salaries, along with pending FAs actually stuff cap space.

Magic will, for service of Bamba, Isaac and Gordon ( where in reality 1 won't play) still cash in $31 400 000. Again, they will only play just Bamba and Gordon for that money.

Cap space of this team while being forced to blindfolded exstension of Isaac and benefits of a doubt for Fultz is living nighmare.

Gordon as a 4th pick has pretty much panned out as well as reasonably expected. I would agree that he never reached our highest of hopes, but when you look at the results of that draft.... Wiggins, Parker, Embiid, Gordon, Exum, Smart, Randle, Stauskas, Vonleh, Payton. We never missed out on any All-Star. His declining contract is palatable. Magic never made a good honest effort in treating him like a star, building the right players around him, or featuring him in the offensive game plan. His developmental years were tarnished. Gave Tobias a max contract, drafted Hezonja, Skiles hated him, gave Jeff Green a $17M one year deal, drafted Isaac. It's amazing Gordon has gotten where he is. The fact that some people in the internet world are talking about using him as a trade chip in a package to get the #2 pick is a testament to him. May not be a star, but I don't see him as a problem. He takes on hard defensive assignments, he moves the ball, he affects the game in a positive way without the ball.

Couldn't find anything about Isaac having an injury history dated back to high school. No reason to write off his future. Porzingis and Lavine have recently made successful returns. Rondo, Gallinari, Lou Williams, Rubio, Dinwiddie, Exum, Livingston, Parker, Rose.... all these guys have all returned. Stop trying to spread fear factor.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Isaac#High_school_career

You were wrong about Fultz this past season. His future is bright. Lick your wounds and move on.

Bamba just finished his second season (first season of Vuc's brand new deal). Don't bash him for failing to meet your expectations, because you had zero expectation for him to begin with when the season started. You wanted Vuc. You wanted Bamba to be benched. His PER 40 numbers are better than you preach. On par with Gobert. His body improvement was nothing short of impressive. Give the man credit. He is still a reliable source for rebounds, blocks and floor spacing. Don't prematurely write him off just because it fits your bias and narrative.

When you add Okeke to that group, these are the only guys that give the Magic any glimpse of "hope" for a better future. The vets are stop gaps and road blocks. Nothing more.

[J the Drafter]

This is just completely backwards. You only look to the future for hope when the present sucks. That's where we are. Those four players represent the little hope that fans of this franchise still hold.

No player is drafted for what they are. They are drafted for what they might become. It's unreasonable to expect first-year players to outperform seventh-year veterans, but it's exceptionally shortsighted to let that impede the development of the only potentially valuable long-term assets you have. Those four are the only players on our roster that have substantial potential upside remaining in their development. Each of them still possesses more upside than anyone other player on this roster. We don't know what the future holds for them, but it is certainly looking more and more pessimistic as time goes by. I have zero doubt that each one would look far more appealing in an organization that is better at developing talent, but this is just one of our many shortcomings. It's pretty damned difficult to construct a competitive team when you overpay to retain players, don't make trades, don't draft well, and fail to develop what you do draft.

If, eight years into the tenures of this crop, we have a cumulative win rate of less than 38% and a grand total of two playoff wins, then I'd hope that some substantial organizational restructuring will have taken place, as it would represent a colossal failure.

Still, those are players franchise is investing money and time to take them somwhere.
And let's be 100% honest here,those are not guys that will really get you anywhere.

Gordon is next year 7th year pro, who spent 7 of Magic 9 rebuild years on that team. After year 4, when he was 22, growth of him as a player simply stopped. He is stailing and being same player for 2 years straight. it's unreasonable to expect any growth at this point.
( 4 years, $80 000 000 contract ). Long term investment that is not paying off.

Isaac had nice development, he never had offensive side of a game developed but that's not main issue with him. It's his health.
It's unreasonable to expect more than 50-60 games a year and injury- riddled career going forward if he can't stay health at such young age already. I might be wrong but his left leg injuries date back to highschool?

( $ 7 362 000 of cap space dead for 2020-21 season, pending FA, questionable recovery, 4th major injury on same leg ).


Fultz. 3rd year player babied by calling him rookie.
No improvments after year and half of rehab in his outside shooting stroke. No surgery done. Very little reasons to belive he will one day just rework his shot from condition. Very expensive rookie contract. Very average season even by rookie standards ( witch, he is not ).
$12 200 000 commited for next season, pending RFA. Expensivs QO worth $10M


Mo Bamba. Very low value as player, gets all benefits of a doubt ( for example had to leave bubble to recover from condition, cleared to practice 4 days after Magic were eliminated from playoffs )
Very little development from year to year two. Over time lost PT to third string C. Questionable durability, mobility, agility, athletis, intangibles...
Makes $ 6 000 000 next year, 4th year option worth $ 7,5M, QO worth almost $11M


And where on surface non of them is breaking your bank and they are on allegedly "cheap rookie deals", their cumulative salaries, along with pending FAs actually stuff cap space.

Magic will, for service of Bamba, Isaac and Gordon ( where in reality 1 won't play) still cash in $31 400 000. Again, they will only play just Bamba and Gordon for that money.

Cap space of this team while being forced to blindfolded exstension of Isaac and benefits of a doubt for Fultz is living nighmare.

Gordon as a 4th pick has pretty much panned out as well as reasonably expected. I would agree that he never reached our highest of hopes, but when you look at the results of that draft.... Wiggins, Parker, Embiid, Gordon, Exum, Smart, Randle, Stauskas, Vonleh, Payton. We never missed out on any All-Star. His declining contract is palatable. Magic never made a good honest effort in treating him like a star, building the right players around him, or featuring him in the offensive game plan. His developmental years were tarnished. Gave Tobias a max contract, drafted Hezonja, Skiles hated him, gave Jeff Green a $17M one year deal, drafted Isaac. It's amazing Gordon has gotten where he is. The fact that some people in the internet world are talking about using him as a trade chip in a package to get the #2 pick is a testament to him. May not be a star, but I don't see him as a problem. He takes on hard defensive assignments, he moves the ball, he affects the game in a positive way without the ball.

Couldn't find anything about Isaac having an injury history dated back to high school. No reason to write off his future. Porzingis and Lavine have recently made successful returns. Rondo, Gallinari, Lou Williams, Rubio, Dinwiddie, Exum, Livingston, Parker, Rose.... all these guys have all returned. Stop trying to spread fear factor.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Isaac#High_school_career

You were wrong about Fultz this past season. His future is bright. Lick your wounds and move on.

Bamba just finished his second season (first season of Vuc's brand new deal). Don't bash him for failing to meet your expectations, because you had zero expectation for him to begin with when the season started. You wanted Vuc. You wanted Bamba to be benched. His PER 40 numbers are better than you preach. On par with Gobert. His body improvement was nothing short of impressive. Give the man credit. He is still a reliable source for rebounds, blocks and floor spacing. Don't prematurely write him off just because it fits your bias and narrative.

When you add Okeke to that group, these are the only guys that give the Magic any glimpse of "hope" for a better future. The vets are stop gaps and road blocks. Nothing more.

I just wanted to say a few words about Gordon. He joined the team as a mediocre shooter. Through hard work he changed his form to the point where he can reliably hit three’s. The first time I saw him post up—back when Skiles was here—Gordon had a turnaround jumper. These days Gordon reliably feasts on wings in the post. Gordon has added dribble moves—and he can get to the basket, though he hasn’t seen consistent results from his moves—and he’s added a pull-up and fadeaway, which have been slightly better. Blaming his failures as a player on circumstance is to ignore how raw he was when we drafted him and how much he’s improved over the years.

Edit: there was also a time when Gordon would commit charges because he didn’t have any finishes, too.