2020 NBA Draft Prospects: Thread II

[minimus]

I've been looking at Paul Reed the PF from DePaul and I like what I see. I might take a guy like that at 17. What do you all think of Reed?

I rank him second in 2020 draft PFs. Only behind Xavier Tillman. Both are exceptional defenders.

So Tillman and Reed are in your opinion better than Okongwu and Deni. Or do you consider these 6'9" players to be Center and SF only?

I value skillset and ability to defend PF position in current NBA over height. Okongwu is a bigman to me. Avdija is a combo-forward (if he improves his three point shot). My personal PF ranking for 2020 draft is:

1) Tillman
2) Reed
3) Patrick Williams
4) Tillie
5) Toppin
6) Tyler Bey

[KGdaBom]

Congrats you just posted a whole lotta irrelevant words that don’t disprove he is an awful defender.

I'm talking about Net +/-. He's a huge plus in college. Probably not quite as much in the pros, but what he would bring to the Wolves would be beneficial IMO.

So this is just a waste of time if you aren’t going to stay on the topic of his defense.

I'm on the topic of the thread. 2020 NBA draft prospects of which Toppin is definitely one of the 10 best. I've stated he's stronger offensively than defensively. If you feel like saying he's the worst defender in the history of the world go for it. I disagree.

[KGdaBom]

I rank him second in 2020 draft PFs. Only behind Xavier Tillman. Both are exceptional defenders.

So Tillman and Reed are in your opinion better than Okongwu and Deni. Or do you consider these 6'9" players to be Center and SF only?

I value skillset and ability to defend PF position in current NBA over height. Okongwu is a bigman to me. Avdija is a combo-forward (if he improves his three point shot). My personal PF ranking for 2020 draft is:

1) Tillman
2) Reed
3) Patrick Williams
4) Tillie
5) Toppin
6) Tyler Bey

So you're claiming that neither Okongwu or Deni are PFs. Got it. Isn't one part of combo forward PF. Isn't one part of big man PF.

[Mattya]

I'm talking about Net +/-. He's a huge plus in college. Probably not quite as much in the pros, but what he would bring to the Wolves would be beneficial IMO.

So this is just a waste of time if you aren’t going to stay on the topic of his defense.

I'm on the topic of the thread. 2020 NBA draft prospects of which Toppin is definitely one of the 10 best. I've stated he's stronger offensively than defensively. If you feel like saying he's the worst defender in the history of the world go for it. I disagree.

You said he wasn’t that awful defensively. I said he was. Then you post all about how good Dayton was as if that as if that proves he wasn’t an awful defender. Do you understand how to support your point with relevant facts and staying on the topic you are debating? Holy crap how are you this lost?

This is why arguing with people who debate in fallacies routinely is a giant waste of time. They want to bait you into arguments you don’t make after they say something they can’t back up with facts.

[Nick K]

I see no reason OO couldn't play PF. I think he'd be great there because he can defend the position. I'd still be ok with him if he couldn't shoot the 3. We have others who can do that. OO rebounds, rim protects, does all the things around the basket we need. I love the guy. The question is if Rosas likes him. I don't think so.

[KGdaBom]

So this is just a waste of time if you aren’t going to stay on the topic of his defense.

I'm on the topic of the thread. 2020 NBA draft prospects of which Toppin is definitely one of the 10 best. I've stated he's stronger offensively than defensively. If you feel like saying he's the worst defender in the history of the world go for it. I disagree.

You said he wasn’t that awful defensively. I said he was. Then you post all about how good Dayton was as if that as if that proves he wasn’t an awful defender. Do you understand how to support your point with relevant facts and staying on the topic you are debating? Holy crap how are you this lost?

This is why arguing with people who debate in fallacies routinely is a giant waste of time. They want to bait you into arguments you don’t make after they say something they can’t back up with facts.

How rude do you need to be. We're both just giving our opinions. My opinion is that Toppin is one of the ten best players in the draft or better. You have a different opinion. You have no facts. You have your opinion. The following are facts. They don't prove anything, but they're facts. Toppin had a Ortg of 125.3 and a Drtg of 90.3. Here's the link
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/obadiah-toppin-1.html
90.3 is a good Drtg. The 35 point gap from ORtg to DRtg is pretty amazing. It doesn't prove anything, but it's pretty amazing. No fact you can share will prove anything either.
So stop acting like we are debating facts. We are doing nothing but sharing opinions.

The more I think about this the more upset I am with you. I'm not debating in any fallacies whatsoever. I don't want to bait you into anything. Talk about creating a straw man.

Here's a very comparable player for the ORtg and DRtg. Onyeka Okongwu. 122.8 and 88.5 respectively. Those numbers are within 3 and 2 points both ways.

[KGdaBom]

I see no reason OO couldn't play PF. I think he'd be great there because he can defend the position. I'd still be ok with him if he couldn't shoot the 3. We have others who can do that. OO rebounds, rim protects, does all the things around the basket we need. I love the guy. The question is if Rosas likes him. I don't think so.

Okongwu is an extremely athletic, quick, agile 6'9" player that can guard about any position he wants to. PF would probably be his best position to play defense against.

[Mattya]

I'm on the topic of the thread. 2020 NBA draft prospects of which Toppin is definitely one of the 10 best. I've stated he's stronger offensively than defensively. If you feel like saying he's the worst defender in the history of the world go for it. I disagree.

You said he wasn’t that awful defensively. I said he was. Then you post all about how good Dayton was as if that as if that proves he wasn’t an awful defender. Do you understand how to support your point with relevant facts and staying on the topic you are debating? Holy crap how are you this lost?

This is why arguing with people who debate in fallacies routinely is a giant waste of time. They want to bait you into arguments you don’t make after they say something they can’t back up with facts.

How rude do you need to be. We're both just giving our opinions. My opinion is that Toppin is one of the ten best players in the draft or better. You have a different opinion. You have no facts. You have your opinion. The following are facts. They don't prove anything, but they're facts. Toppin had a Ortg of 125.3 and a Drtg of 90.3. Here's the link
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/obadiah-toppin-1.html
90.3 is a good Drtg. The 35 point gap from ORtg to DRtg is pretty amazing. It doesn't prove anything, but it's pretty amazing. No fact you can share will prove anything either.
So stop acting like we are debating facts. We are doing nothing but sharing opinions.

The more I think about this the more upset I am with you. I'm not debating in any fallacies whatsoever. I don't want to bait you into anything. Talk about creating a straw man.

Here's a very comparable player for the ORtg and DRtg. Onyeka Okongwu. 122.8 and 88.5 respectively. Those numbers are within 3 and 2 points both ways.

1. You won’t get to play victim with me. You quite clearly have a fundamental misunderstanding of what fallacies and strawman arguments are.

2. You can’t use defensive ratings the way you are between two players on different teams. That isn’t how that rating works. There was a time when Derrick Williams had a 31 point gap between Ortg and Drtg. How did that turn out for him?

3. What I can share is experts and scouts opinions with video evidence of this guy constantly getting consistently trashed defensively. Especially in pick and roll and the post where he gets bodied on drives from pick and rolls and pops by wings who attack his high center of gravity and abused by bigs in the post because he isn’t strong. The two most important things for bigs to be able to defend in the NBA. Literally every scouting report must be wrong because because you say so.

4. At least with most people on this board with prospects they like they acknowledge their weaknesses. Even the scouts all agree on Toppins defense. So, I don’t know if it is some Dunning Kruger effect or alternate reality you’re living in, but Toppin is by all accounts a horrible defensive player on the perimeter especially pick and roll.

[Neeva]

I can see Toppin fall on draft night cause of his age and lacklaster defense but he wont fall past orlando or Portland. he will be a better Kuzma and that is still useful, this league is offense dominated.

[Neeva]

I have been thinking it’s been like 6 straight drafts that a kentucky wildcat has gone on to be pretty damn good in the league so might as well take those chances and go with Maxey at 17 and Quickley at 33.

[KGdaBom]

You said he wasn’t that awful defensively. I said he was. Then you post all about how good Dayton was as if that as if that proves he wasn’t an awful defender. Do you understand how to support your point with relevant facts and staying on the topic you are debating? Holy crap how are you this lost?

This is why arguing with people who debate in fallacies routinely is a giant waste of time. They want to bait you into arguments you don’t make after they say something they can’t back up with facts.

How rude do you need to be. We're both just giving our opinions. My opinion is that Toppin is one of the ten best players in the draft or better. You have a different opinion. You have no facts. You have your opinion. The following are facts. They don't prove anything, but they're facts. Toppin had a Ortg of 125.3 and a Drtg of 90.3. Here's the link
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/obadiah-toppin-1.html
90.3 is a good Drtg. The 35 point gap from ORtg to DRtg is pretty amazing. It doesn't prove anything, but it's pretty amazing. No fact you can share will prove anything either.
So stop acting like we are debating facts. We are doing nothing but sharing opinions.

The more I think about this the more upset I am with you. I'm not debating in any fallacies whatsoever. I don't want to bait you into anything. Talk about creating a straw man.

Here's a very comparable player for the ORtg and DRtg. Onyeka Okongwu. 122.8 and 88.5 respectively. Those numbers are within 3 and 2 points both ways.

1. You won’t get to play victim with me. You quite clearly have a fundamental misunderstanding of what fallacies and strawman arguments are.

2. You can’t use defensive ratings the way you are between two players on different teams. That isn’t how that rating works. There was a time when Derrick Williams had a 31 point gap between Ortg and Drtg. How did that turn out for him?

3. What I can share is experts and scouts opinions with video evidence of this guy constantly getting consistently trashed defensively. Especially in pick and roll and the post where he gets bodied on drives from pick and rolls and pops by wings who attack his high center of gravity and abused by bigs in the post because he isn’t strong. The two most important things for bigs to be able to defend in the NBA. Literally every scouting report must be wrong because because you say so.

4. At least with most people on this board with prospects they like they acknowledge their weaknesses. Even the scouts all agree on Toppins defense. So, I don’t know if it is some Dunning Kruger effect or alternate reality you’re living in, but Toppin is by all accounts a horrible defensive player on the perimeter especially pick and roll.

1 What a load of BS. I sure do know what fallacies and straw man arguments are. A straw man argument or fallacy is representing your opponents argument as something it isn't. A fallacy is arguing in a way that doesn't actually prove anything because the argument is flawed in design.

There is no logically provable argument as to how good or not good a players defense is. However, one can make a reasonably strong case regarding the subject.

2 I sure can use Drtg however I damn well please. Okongwu who I regard as the best defender in the draft only had a 2 point better DRtg. Do I consider Toppin as good a defender as Okongwu? No I don't, but You were asking for facts so I gave some facts. I specifically said they didn't prove anything.

3 Just as I said You are sharing your opinion and what you have to share doesn't prove anything. Once again you are attempting to create a straw man of my position. I never said anything about any of the scouting reports. The only thing I said was his defense isn't that bad. What does "that" in this case mean? Until "that" is defined you can make no legit argument whatsoever about my position.

4 I acknowledged that Toppin was not as good defensively as he is offensively. I said he wasn't that bad on D. Not exactly a glowing endorsement. So that is where I said you were creating a straw man. Acting like I was saying he was not bad on D. I never made an argument whatsoever about Toppin being not a bad defender. My argument was exactly what I said before. As a whole Toppin is a net positive and a very good prospect.

[KGdaBom]

I can see Toppin fall on draft night cause of his age and lacklaster defense but he wont fall past orlando or Portland. he will be a better Kuzma and that is still useful, this league is offense dominated.

A generally good post. His age and lackluster D will be the reason he falls. However, I doubt that will be out of the top ten.

[KGdaBom]

I have been thinking it’s been like 6 straight drafts that a kentucky wildcat has gone on to be pretty damn good in the league so might as well take those chances and go with Maxey at 17 and Quickley at 33.

How a player is going to do in the league has nothing to do with how other players from the same school have done in the league.
However, if you find the trend to be encouraging I wouldn't fault you for using it as a tiebreaker.

[Mattya]

How rude do you need to be. We're both just giving our opinions. My opinion is that Toppin is one of the ten best players in the draft or better. You have a different opinion. You have no facts. You have your opinion. The following are facts. They don't prove anything, but they're facts. Toppin had a Ortg of 125.3 and a Drtg of 90.3. Here's the link
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/obadiah-toppin-1.html
90.3 is a good Drtg. The 35 point gap from ORtg to DRtg is pretty amazing. It doesn't prove anything, but it's pretty amazing. No fact you can share will prove anything either.
So stop acting like we are debating facts. We are doing nothing but sharing opinions.

The more I think about this the more upset I am with you. I'm not debating in any fallacies whatsoever. I don't want to bait you into anything. Talk about creating a straw man.

Here's a very comparable player for the ORtg and DRtg. Onyeka Okongwu. 122.8 and 88.5 respectively. Those numbers are within 3 and 2 points both ways.

1. You won’t get to play victim with me. You quite clearly have a fundamental misunderstanding of what fallacies and strawman arguments are.

2. You can’t use defensive ratings the way you are between two players on different teams. That isn’t how that rating works. There was a time when Derrick Williams had a 31 point gap between Ortg and Drtg. How did that turn out for him?

3. What I can share is experts and scouts opinions with video evidence of this guy constantly getting consistently trashed defensively. Especially in pick and roll and the post where he gets bodied on drives from pick and rolls and pops by wings who attack his high center of gravity and abused by bigs in the post because he isn’t strong. The two most important things for bigs to be able to defend in the NBA. Literally every scouting report must be wrong because because you say so.

4. At least with most people on this board with prospects they like they acknowledge their weaknesses. Even the scouts all agree on Toppins defense. So, I don’t know if it is some Dunning Kruger effect or alternate reality you’re living in, but Toppin is by all accounts a horrible defensive player on the perimeter especially pick and roll.

1 What a load of BS. I sure do know what fallacies and straw man arguments are.

2 I sure can use Drtg however I damn well please. Okongwu who I regard as the best defender in the draft only had a 2 point better DRtg. Do I consider Toppin as good a defender as Okongwu? No I don't, but You were asking for facts so I gave some facts. I specifically said they didn't prove anything.

3 Just as I said You are sharing your opinion and what you have to share doesn't prove anything.

4 I acknowledged that Toppin was not as good defensively as he is offensively. I said he wasn't that bad on D. Not exactly a glowing endorsement. So that is where I said you were creating a straw man. Acting like I was saying he was not bad on D. I never made an argument whatsoever about Toppin being a good defender. My argument was exactly what I said before. As a whole Toppin is a very good prospect.

1. Well prepare for your load of BS posts..

It's sure lucky for him that the rest of the Dayton team carried his sorry A$$ to a top 5 rating in the nation

If you feel like saying he's the worst defender in the history of the world go for it

So now we are clear you don’t know what fallacies and strawman arguements are we can move on.

2. Sure, you can use stats however you damn well please, it just means others can ignore you when you lack the understanding of how to actually interpret them. That’s more of a you problem though.

3. I’m not the one that has to prove something. You said he was as awful as the experts say. The onus is on you to make your points you rambled on about Dayton being highly ranked or some garbage.

4. Here is the problem as to why you don’t understand what a straw man is. I never said you thought he was a good defender. I directly quoted you saying he wasn’t that awful and wanted an explanation, then you ended up baiting yourself into comparing his defensive rating to Okongwu, that’s all on you bud.

[Klomp]

So here's the other option instead of trading for Gordon. But how can MN draft him #1 or in the top ten if RealGM consensus has him outside top 10? Does not compute.

Maybe fans don't know what the team needs or values as much as the team itself does?

[Klomp]

I don't think the full video has been posted yet. This might be one of my favorites yet.

Watch on YouTube

So here's the other option instead of trading for Gordon. But how can MN draft him #1 or in the top ten if RealGM consensus has him outside top 10? Does not compute.

Because the guy looks like one of the worst perimeter defenders in the draft. Is that what you want when Towns already struggles in that area defensively.

Because frankly, I'm not that personally worried about defense at this point, and I'm not sure the team is either. Why did Minnesota value and target Beasley and Hernangomez over Covington? Do you think it's because of their defensive prowess?

I want to get the offense to as high a level as possible before focusing on the defense, and after the top few guys I think Toppin helps the offense more than basically anyone. I do think that while Toppin has some defensive issues to work out, he also was put into disadvantageous positions defensively by the system and the personnel he played with.

[Klomp]

It’s BS to point out how awful on defense he was in college? Got it.

IMO it's BS to act like he isn't a top 10 prospect in this years draft. He wasn't that awful on D.

You’ve convinced me. I’ll forget all the video evidence of teams targeting him in pick and roll or on switches or on post ups.

Did teams not target Edwards? Did teams not target Ball? Did these guys become all-NBA defenders overnight and I missed the memo? Why dock Toppin so much for defense while guys like that get a pass?

[minimus]

Why dock Toppin so much for defense while guys like that get a pass?

Because playing good defense in 1-3-1 scheme is more important for a bigman than for other position.

This year in playoffs:

BOS -Theiss. High IQ, hustle, defense
LAC - Zubac. High IQ, size
DEN - Jokic. High IQ, size
LAL - AD. NBA All-Defensive First Team
MIA - Bam. NBA All-Defensive Second Team
UTA - Gobert. NBA All-Defensive First Team
MIL - Brook Lopez. NBA All-Defensive Second Team

[Rookie-Mistake]

Wiseman

Why dock Toppin so much for defense while guys like that get a pass?

Because playing good defense in 1-3-1 scheme is more important for a bigman than for other position.

This year in playoffs:

BOS -Theiss. High IQ, hustle, defense
LAC - Zubac. High IQ, size
DEN - Jokic. High IQ, size
LAL - AD. NBA All-Defensive First Team
MIA - Bam. NBA All-Defensive Second Team
UTA - Gobert. NBA All-Defensive First Team
MIL - Brook Lopez. NBA All-Defensive Second Team

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using RealGM mobile app

[minimus]

Wiseman

Why dock Toppin so much for defense while guys like that get a pass?

Because playing good defense in 1-3-1 scheme is more important for a bigman than for other position.

This year in playoffs:

BOS -Theiss. High IQ, hustle, defense
LAC - Zubac. High IQ, size
DEN - Jokic. High IQ, size
LAL - AD. NBA All-Defensive First Team
MIA - Bam. NBA All-Defensive Second Team
UTA - Gobert. NBA All-Defensive First Team
MIL - Brook Lopez. NBA All-Defensive Second Team

I hope KAT will be in this list next year.