Jokic or Doncic now and for the next 5 years

[BelgradeNugget]

Jokic or Luka which of these 2 would you select?

Jokic and Luka?

[E-Balla]

The dalla offense is the best in the league with luka off the floor tho lol, theyre 7-7 without him and 4 lf their losses were by less than 5 (whereas onlye one of their wins are, against milwakee)

Exactly. And KP is a no name player? Like his post is absurd.

You're full of it. At the start of the season no one was talking about Dallas even with KP, because no one knew anyone else on the team. Yeah, Kleber and Finney Smith, and Seth Curry and Hardaway Jnr. All these established, well known quality NBA starters. Please. Literally every player of significance put up career shooting years or close to it this season. At the same time. These aren't young players in their early 20's with no or little NBA history. A bunch of guys in their late 20's all having career shooting years at once. That's not indicative of Dallas having an incredible team. It's a whole bunch of luck, combined with a great system implemented by an elite coach and a heap of pressure taken off these role players to produce because literally everything falls on the shoulders of a 21 year old, so they get to comfortably play their role without having to do more than their talent level allows. But yeah, pretend that because the offensive efficiency (not the offense itself, there is in fact a difference) was the best ever, this is some team with elite offensive talent around Luka. There's literally not one player outside Luka that can reliably create their own offense. Even KP needs to be fed, and his TS is 55.1% during the season, which is a career best, yet still not very good.

This post is why people who don't read the board often need to refrain from discussions like the infamy of players.

Maxi is in his 3rd season and has been a good player for 3 years now.

Dorian Finney-Smith has been a strong defender his whole career and recently improved to be a 38% shooter from deep - that's not on Luka it's on him hitting the gym.

As far as Seth and Timmy go you don't know who you're talking to pretty obviously.

I've been on the Seth Curry bandwagon for 5 years (I know you're thinking, "but he wasn't even in the league 5 years ago," and you're right which is why I started a thread 5 years ago about how much he needs to be in the league) and I've loved Timmy ever since Bud whipped him up into a good player.

A far as KP goes I've never been high on him as a first option but without Luka around he's averaging 27 ppg on 59 TS% in a 10 game sample. Luka isn't the reason he's efficient, actually if you take out his games without Luka this isn't his most efficient season.

None of those guys were established and well known prior to this season, but that doesn't mean they're not good. It just means 99% of fans don't make it a habit to watch lottery teams so they wouldn't know the names of any standout performers on lottery squads. Ask any Knicks fan how they feel about KP and Trey Burke. Timmy... Well most of them still hate him from the San Antonio game winner that destroyed our tank in 2015 but beyond that he's grown into a great player under Bud.

If it was Luka making their offense so great and not great coaching and shooters how come when he missed games earlier this year they were the best offense even without him? If he's making them so great how come their ORTG in minutes without him would still rank top 5?

[70sFan]

This is quite strange to me - it's completely fine to believe that 20 years old sophomore leads one of the best offensive teams ever without any help, but it's impossible that some of his teammates were actually excellent players?

It doesn't even make any sense and I became Doncic fan and believer after Clippers series. He's already one of the best offensive players in the league and he proved that his offense is resiliant against pressure, but he's not leading this ATG offense alone. Dallas had plenty of good players this year and their bench was actually stacked. Who the hell cares that these players are not well known? They were damn good and it's not because of Doncic. Not to mention that Carlise is an all-time great coach.

I don't expect them to be that good without him, so he deserves a lot of praise but let's not exaggarate - he's not god for anything.

[Archx]

Exactly. And KP is a no name player? Like his post is absurd.

You're full of it. At the start of the season no one was talking about Dallas even with KP, because no one knew anyone else on the team. Yeah, Kleber and Finney Smith, and Seth Curry and Hardaway Jnr. All these established, well known quality NBA starters. Please. Literally every player of significance put up career shooting years or close to it this season. At the same time. These aren't young players in their early 20's with no or little NBA history. A bunch of guys in their late 20's all having career shooting years at once. That's not indicative of Dallas having an incredible team. It's a whole bunch of luck, combined with a great system implemented by an elite coach and a heap of pressure taken off these role players to produce because literally everything falls on the shoulders of a 21 year old, so they get to comfortably play their role without having to do more than their talent level allows. But yeah, pretend that because the offensive efficiency (not the offense itself, there is in fact a difference) was the best ever, this is some team with elite offensive talent around Luka. There's literally not one player outside Luka that can reliably create their own offense. Even KP needs to be fed, and his TS is 55.1% during the season, which is a career best, yet still not very good.

This post is why people who don't read the board often need to refrain from discussions like the infamy of players.

Maxi is in his 3rd season and has been a good player for 3 years now.

Dorian Finney-Smith has been a strong defender his whole career and recently improved to be a 38% shooter from deep - that's not on Luka it's on him hitting the gym.

As far as Seth and Timmy go you don't know who you're talking to pretty obviously.

I've been on the Seth Curry bandwagon for 5 years (I know you're thinking, "but he wasn't even in the league 5 years ago," and you're right which is why I started a thread 5 years ago about how much he needs to be in the league) and I've loved Timmy ever since Bud whipped him up into a good player.

A far as KP goes I've never been high on him as a first option but without Luka around he's averaging 27 ppg on 59 TS% in a 10 game sample. Luka isn't the reason he's efficient, actually if you take out his games without Luka this isn't his most efficient season.

None of those guys were established and well known prior to this season, but that doesn't mean they're not good. It just means 99% of fans don't make it a habit to watch lottery teams so they wouldn't know the names of any standout performers on lottery squads. Ask any Knicks fan how they feel about KP and Trey Burke. Timmy... Well most of them still hate him from the San Antonio game winner that destroyed our tank in 2015 but beyond that he's grown into a great player under Bud.

If it was Luka making their offense so great and not great coaching and shooters how come when he missed games earlier this year they were the best offense even without him? If he's making them so great how come their ORTG in minutes without him would still rank top 5?

Well here is the thing. I'm not saying you're necessary wrong but stats can be incredibly misleading. Yeah Maxi and DFS became nice players this season or even previous season started showing potential. But when people say how great defenders are, even Mavs fans would aknowledge that they are one of the best defenders on this team, yet Doncic statistically is a better defender than both of them. And there are probably 90% of people here on realGM who think Luka is a bad defender. Well maybe in regular season, but in playoffs it's a completely different story.

Anyway, my point is, these Mavs wouldn't even make it into the playoffs without Luka. Mavs have great role players and amazing coaching staff who knows how to utilize them. But their game 6 vs LAC is a prime example what can happen if those role players get cold. And anyone who watched these Mavs play this year, can tell you what a roller coaster their ride has been. Luka kept them in the game so many times but they were still unable to close out games. Or that time when they were up 30 points vs TOR (yes even without Doncic) and lost at the end. I'm not saying they're bad, obviously they have a strong bench, but CONSISTENCY is where they struggle a ton. And i have to say that they even struggled with Luka in the final 5 minutes.

So again, what you say it is true to some extent, but stats can be misleading. And Luka afterall was the best offensive player in the league (stat wise). Is that stat misleading? Could Mavs still make the playoffs without him and push LAC to 6 or almost 7 games?

[E-Balla]

You're full of it. At the start of the season no one was talking about Dallas even with KP, because no one knew anyone else on the team. Yeah, Kleber and Finney Smith, and Seth Curry and Hardaway Jnr. All these established, well known quality NBA starters. Please. Literally every player of significance put up career shooting years or close to it this season. At the same time. These aren't young players in their early 20's with no or little NBA history. A bunch of guys in their late 20's all having career shooting years at once. That's not indicative of Dallas having an incredible team. It's a whole bunch of luck, combined with a great system implemented by an elite coach and a heap of pressure taken off these role players to produce because literally everything falls on the shoulders of a 21 year old, so they get to comfortably play their role without having to do more than their talent level allows. But yeah, pretend that because the offensive efficiency (not the offense itself, there is in fact a difference) was the best ever, this is some team with elite offensive talent around Luka. There's literally not one player outside Luka that can reliably create their own offense. Even KP needs to be fed, and his TS is 55.1% during the season, which is a career best, yet still not very good.

This post is why people who don't read the board often need to refrain from discussions like the infamy of players.

Maxi is in his 3rd season and has been a good player for 3 years now.

Dorian Finney-Smith has been a strong defender his whole career and recently improved to be a 38% shooter from deep - that's not on Luka it's on him hitting the gym.

As far as Seth and Timmy go you don't know who you're talking to pretty obviously.

I've been on the Seth Curry bandwagon for 5 years (I know you're thinking, "but he wasn't even in the league 5 years ago," and you're right which is why I started a thread 5 years ago about how much he needs to be in the league) and I've loved Timmy ever since Bud whipped him up into a good player.

A far as KP goes I've never been high on him as a first option but without Luka around he's averaging 27 ppg on 59 TS% in a 10 game sample. Luka isn't the reason he's efficient, actually if you take out his games without Luka this isn't his most efficient season.

None of those guys were established and well known prior to this season, but that doesn't mean they're not good. It just means 99% of fans don't make it a habit to watch lottery teams so they wouldn't know the names of any standout performers on lottery squads. Ask any Knicks fan how they feel about KP and Trey Burke. Timmy... Well most of them still hate him from the San Antonio game winner that destroyed our tank in 2015 but beyond that he's grown into a great player under Bud.

If it was Luka making their offense so great and not great coaching and shooters how come when he missed games earlier this year they were the best offense even without him? If he's making them so great how come their ORTG in minutes without him would still rank top 5?

Well here is the thing. I'm not saying you're necessary wrong but stats can be incredibly misleading. Yeah Maxi and DFS became nice players this season or even previous season started showing potential. But when people say how great defenders are, even Mavs fans would aknowledge that they are one of the best defenders on this team, yet Doncic statistically is a better defender than both of them. And there are probably 90% of people here on realGM who think Luka is a bad defender. Well maybe in regular season, but in playoffs it's a completely different story.

Anyway, my point is, these Mavs wouldn't even make it into the playoffs without Luka. Mavs have great role players and amazing coaching staff who knows how to utilize them. But their game 6 vs LAC is a prime example what can happen if those role players get cold. And anyone who watched these Mavs play this year, can tell you what a roller coaster their ride has been. Luka kept them in the game so many times but they were still unable to close out games. Or that time when they were up 30 points vs TOR (yes even without Doncic) and lost at the end. I'm not saying they're bad, obviously they have a strong bench, but CONSISTENCY is where they struggle a ton. And i have to say that they even struggled with Luka in the final 5 minutes.

So again, what you say it is true to some extent, but stats can be misleading. And Luka afterall was the best offensive player in the league (stat wise). Is that stat misleading? Could Mavs still make the playoffs without him and push LAC to 6 or almost 7 games?

Who said they'd be just as good without Luka? What I said was that he has a better supporting cast than Jokic. You think Denver is in the playoffs without Jokic? Do you even think they're .500? Say what you want about Dallas they'd probably be close enough to .500 to squeak in. They'd be neck and neck with teams like Memphis without Luka around.

[Archx]

If it was Luka making their offense so great and not great coaching and shooters how come when he missed games earlier this year they were the best offense even without him? If he's making them so great how come their ORTG in minutes without him would still rank top 5?

This is what i disagreed with. I didn't even have DEN in mind, was only talking about Mavs offense. Small sample size sure looks like it, but watching them over the season, i don't think they would make the playoffs or have top5 offense. In theory, even KP would probably play even less games because he would have to carry much more and put more pressure on those knees. But like i said, Mavs have great coaching and great bench, they're just so inconsistent.

[E-Balla]

If it was Luka making their offense so great and not great coaching and shooters how come when he missed games earlier this year they were the best offense even without him? If he's making them so great how come their ORTG in minutes without him would still rank top 5?

This is what i disagreed with. I didn't even have DEN in mind, was only talking about Mavs offense. Small sample size sure looks like it, but watching them over the season, i don't think they would make the playoffs or have top5 offense. In theory, even KP would probably play even less games because he would have to carry much more and put more pressure on those knees. But like i said, Mavs have great coaching and great bench, they're just so inconsistent.

What exactly are you disagreeing with here? Are you saying Luka single handedly carried their offense? If not IDK what you're responding to here.

[Archx]

If it was Luka making their offense so great and not great coaching and shooters how come when he missed games earlier this year they were the best offense even without him? If he's making them so great how come their ORTG in minutes without him would still rank top 5?

This is what i disagreed with. I didn't even have DEN in mind, was only talking about Mavs offense. Small sample size sure looks like it, but watching them over the season, i don't think they would make the playoffs or have top5 offense. In theory, even KP would probably play even less games because he would have to carry much more and put more pressure on those knees. But like i said, Mavs have great coaching and great bench, they're just so inconsistent.

What exactly are you disagreeing with here? Are you saying Luka single handedly carried their offense? If not IDK what you're responding to here.

You said that you think they could be .500 team or be close to playoffs & be a top5 offense and i disagreed. I don't think that their supporting cast is good enough for that.

[E-Balla]

This is what i disagreed with. I didn't even have DEN in mind, was only talking about Mavs offense. Small sample size sure looks like it, but watching them over the season, i don't think they would make the playoffs or have top5 offense. In theory, even KP would probably play even less games because he would have to carry much more and put more pressure on those knees. But like i said, Mavs have great coaching and great bench, they're just so inconsistent.

What exactly are you disagreeing with here? Are you saying Luka single handedly carried their offense? If not IDK what you're responding to here.

You said that you think they could be .500 team or be close to playoffs & be a top5 offense and i disagreed. I don't think that their supporting cast is good enough for that.

See this is why I asked you to be specific. No one said this part. I said, factually, in minutes without him they still performed like a top 5 offense. That's just an actual fact. I said in the games without him they still had a higher ORTG than everyone else in the league. That's just an actual fact. I'd use those facts to support my idea they're a good offense still without him and that due to that they'd be a near .500 team. I'd never use those facts to say they'd be a top 5 offense without him.

[Archx]

What exactly are you disagreeing with here? Are you saying Luka single handedly carried their offense? If not IDK what you're responding to here.

You said that you think they could be .500 team or be close to playoffs & be a top5 offense and i disagreed. I don't think that their supporting cast is good enough for that.

See this is why I asked you to be specific. No one said this part. I said, factually, in minutes without him they still performed like a top 5 offense. That's just an actual fact. I said in the games without him they still had a higher ORTG than everyone else in the league. That's just an actual fact. I'd use those facts to support my idea they're a good offense still without him and that due to that they'd be a near .500 team. I'd never use those facts to say they'd be a top 5 offense without him.

Yeah, fair enough.

[Yuri36]

I really like Jokic but i pick Doncic now and of course for the next 5 years without even thinking twice.
Basing on his first few seasons, that's not an overstatement to say that the guy is literally on a GOAT trajectory.

[freethedevil]

Lol what? Don't come out of the woodwork about how all of Dallas' no name players that no one ever heard of are suddenly really good players. Dallas has literally 2 good starters in Luka and KP. Not one of the other players for the Mavs have spent more time starting in the NBA vs being on the bench, and they are not young players. Besides Luka and KP, Dallas is a team full of solid role players best suited playing off the bench (and a few who shouldn't be on NBA teams at all like Jackson). Biggest need is actual good NBA starters, a problem Denver don't have.

The dalla offense is the best in the league with luka off the floor tho lol, theyre 7-7 without him and 4 lf their losses were by less than 5 (whereas onlye one of their wins are, against milwakee)

Exactly. And KP is a no name player? Like his post is absurd.

KP was injured though

[Dutchball97]

In 5 years Jokic will be 30, so likely still in his prime. If you'd pick Doncic here you'd have to do it based on the assumption that he takes another step in the near future.

[E-Balla]

The dalla offense is the best in the league with luka off the floor tho lol, theyre 7-7 without him and 4 lf their losses were by less than 5 (whereas onlye one of their wins are, against milwakee)

Exactly. And KP is a no name player? Like his post is absurd.

KP was injured though

He played 57 games this year. Luka played 61...

[freethedevil]

Exactly. And KP is a no name player? Like his post is absurd.

KP was injured though

He played 57 games this year. Luka played 61...

obsiously talking the playoffs

[E-Balla]

KP was injured though

He played 57 games this year. Luka played 61...

obsiously talking the playoffs

I don't know why. My opinion on Luka is surprisingly based on more than 120 minutes.

[70sFan]

I really wait for Jokic against Lakers. He's been great so far, but I have two question marks about him:

- he was bad defensively against Jazz, legitimately bad,
- he played great against Clippers, a team with no rim protection and terrible bigman rotation.

If he continues to play well against LA offensively (which I hope so) while being at least neutral on defense, I'd have him clearly over Doncic. Actually, with another good series I can see him competing for top 3 in the league.

[freethedevil]

He played 57 games this year. Luka played 61...

obsiously talking the playoffs

I don't know why. My opinion on Luka is surprisingly based on more than 120 minutes.

Luka was way better than jokic during the rs though. YOu'd have to rely on the playoffs to argue jokic vs luka

[E-Balla]

obsiously talking the playoffs

I don't know why. My opinion on Luka is surprisingly based on more than 120 minutes.

Luka was way better than jokic during the rs though. YOu'd have to rely on the playoffs to argue jokic vs luka

That's your opinion. I don't think Luka was much better than Jokic in the regular season if that wasn't obvious from the fact I think Jokic had a worse supporting cast and Jokic won more games. I'd have given this same answer before the Nuggets ever played the Clippers.

[Yuri36]

obsiously talking the playoffs

I don't know why. My opinion on Luka is surprisingly based on more than 120 minutes.

Luka was way better than jokic during the rs though. YOu'd have to rely on the playoffs to argue jokic vs luka

And even in playoffs, what could be reproached to Luka?
The guy was a monster in his first NBA POs despite having an injury and without a second option for most of the serie....and that against probably the baddest match up for him considering Clips's insane quality in term of perimeter defenders.
And despite all of that, he averaged almost a 31pts-triple double with great efficiency and including one of the best buzzer beaters in recent times.
So even though Joker has been also great against Clips, I failed to see how he's been better than Luka (and he had Jamal Murray while Luka had KP for only 1 game and half)