Lebron gotta be considered the GOAT now when the Lakers win the title

Ree4erMadness · Post #261 » by **Ree4erMadness** » Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:07 am

Strepbacter wrote:LeBron stans are insufferable. This is why people root against him.

This exactly.

Jaqua92 · Post #262 » by **Jaqua92** » Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:07 am

WestGOAT wrote:• Lebron has been dominating the league for 13 seasons, every season (with the exception of the previous one) since 2006.
• Jordan "only" did it for 10 seasons (1986 - 1992 and 1995-1997).

It's pretty fair to say both of them had a similar level impact when they were in their prime, if there is a difference then it's slightly in favour for Jordan, but it's really pretty negligible. None of these players will lead you to a title by themselves versus regular competition, they all need the appropriate support and roster constructed around them.

So basically it comes down to 13 GOAT years vs 10 GOAT years, it's understandable to choose Jordan over Lebron since he did lead his team to 6 titles over Lebron's 3, but when Lebron wins 4 the case is pretty much clear-cut.

*I'm bad arithmetic, corrected some numbers.

Lebron is playing on the ONLY super team in the league. He created another super team. Only team with 2 1st teamers.

I'd argue that a championship this year not only doesn't move the needle, but it wiggles it backwards before returning to the center.

Lebron created another super team. Get real.

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Jaqua92 · Post #263 » by **Jaqua92** » Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:14 am

Homer38 wrote:
Just_Bullz wrote:
Homer38 wrote:

What is the record of Jordan without the great Scottie Pippen?

0 rings that's fact.

But that doesn't change the fact Bron continue to seek out alphas to pursue his runs. That's facts too, no?

with 5 losing season in 5 seasons and 1-9 in the playoffs....This is the facts...Everyone need help to win.

The difference is Lebron left and had to recruit players to help him. Jordan's star player was drafted and groomed with MJ. LeBron's issue is how he was groomed.

Lebron grew up as a reality tv star. His image, and for a long time, his self worth came from his narrative. But there were always things outside of his control that he had to alter. His image. His status. His role as a leader. His teammates. Lebron never learned to take things as they were, he had to manipulate his image, his teams, and create his own rosters for championship success. That's a blunder that will always hold him back.

Jordan balled. Was marketed. Had real respect for the people who gave him his career, and just played basketball. Eventually.. championships came.

Lebron has been controlling his narrative, his organizations, and hand picked his own teammates just to give him a shot to win titles.

Lebron WANTS to be the GOAT. Jordan wanted to win.

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Jaqua92 · Post #264 » by **Jaqua92** » Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:15 am

jerok wrote:
-MetA4- wrote:
jerok wrote:I completely disagree.
We all forget LeBron took that sad Cavs team to the finals. That alone shows how much he can influence a team full of mischiefs.

With that Cavs team he had to compete with Celtics big 3.

Can you name a player from that Cavs lineup that was in same breath as Scottie Pippen?

I also remember MJ getting spanked by Boston and Detroit until Scottie became an allstar.

MJ averaged 43.7ppg/6.3rpg/5.7apg in the series against the Celtics and 27.4ppg/8.8rpg/4.6apg against the Pistons. The team was spanked, but he was a one-man show on a DEVELOPING team. Those early "sad" Cavs teams that LeBron carried played in a horrendously weak Eastern conference, the comparison is completely pointless. You're talking about a Cavs team who's obstacle was Demar Derozan's Raptors. Early playoff LeBron never had to face anyone like the Celtics or Pistons in the Eastern conference.

Pippen, Grant, etc. weren't even in the league yet while Jordan was already dominating the Celtics by himself. They BECAME what they became under his tireless dictatorship.

22 year old Bron only beat pistons core team that beat shaq kobe lakers and took duncan, manu parker spurs to game 7 in nba finals.
Let's not forget facts

The narrative of Jordan facing stiffer competition in the east is laughable specially in the 90s, he had Pippen, who would be 2nd or 3rd best player in a series.

In the 80s he had to compete with boston big 3. And bad boy pistons and got spanked!
Then we glorify him cause he posts monster numbers, but he still lost.

On the other hand we vilify LeBron losing in NBA finals even tho he puts up monster numbers.

2015 with Delly as his Robin, monster finals. Lost. Dissed.
1986 MJ. Monster numbers, first round. Swept. Praised.

I wonder what it's like.

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jfs1000d · Post #265 » by **jfs1000d** » Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:17 am

WestGOAT wrote:• Lebron has been dominating the league for 13 seasons, every season (with the exception of the previous one) since 2006.
• Jordan "only" did it for 10 seasons (1986 - 1992 and 1995-1997).

It's pretty fair to say both of them had a similar level impact when they were in their prime, if there is a difference then it's slightly in favour for Jordan, but it's really pretty negligible. None of these players will lead you to a title by themselves versus regular competition, they all need the appropriate support and roster constructed around them.

So basically it comes down to 13 GOAT years vs 10 GOAT years, it's understandable to choose Jordan over Lebron since he did lead his team to 6 titles over Lebron's 3, but when Lebron wins 4 the case is pretty much clear-cut.

*I'm bad arithmetic, corrected some numbers.

He’s in the argument. Hard to go across generations.

Jordan, Lebron, Kareem, wilt, Russell, Oscar. Bird, magic, Olajuwon, Shaq.

I actually think you should eliminate centers from the discussion. It makes it easier to compare. No one put up better stats than wilt .

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X_O_Z · Post #266 » by **X_O_Z** » Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:20 am

Jaqua92 wrote:
Homer38 wrote:
Just_Bullz wrote:
0 rings that's fact.

But that doesn't change the fact Bron continue to seek out alphas to pursue his runs. That's facts too, no?

with 5 losing season in 5 seasons and 1-9 in the playoffs....This is the facts...Everyone need help to win.
The difference is Lebron left and had to recruit players to help him. Jordan's star player was drafted and groomed with MJ. LeBron's issue is how he was groomed.

Lebron grew up as a reality tv star. His image, and for a long time, his self worth came from his narrative. But there were always things outside of his control that he had to alter. His image. His status. His role as a leader. His teammates. Lebron never learned to take things as they were, he had to manipulate his image, his teams, and create his own rosters for championship success. That's a blunder that will always hold him back.

Jordan balled. Was marketed. Had real respect for the people who gave him his career, and just played basketball. Eventually.. championships came.

Lebron has been controlling his narrative, his organizations, and hand picked his own teammates just to give him a shot to win titles.

Lebron WANTS to be the GOAT. Jordan wanted to win.

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Wow very similar to my earlier post, you just simply simplified it (in a good way). This is exactly what I don't see Lebron as the GOAT over MJ. Is for those same reasons you have posted here.

Post #267 » by **zimpy27** » Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:21 am

Yeah, LeBron is the GOAT

ninjamilk23 · Post #268 » by **ninjamilk23** » Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:22 am

For me LeBron can only finish as 2nd GOAT behind MJ regardless of how many championships he wins for the rest of his career. He just had too much failure or short coming to be the GOAT. If he can manage to win a championship and FMVP this year and beat Kareem's all time points then I would bump him up at 2nd GOAT.

ninjamilk23 · Post #269 » by **ninjamilk23** » Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:27 am

Jaqua92 wrote:
WestGOAT wrote:• Lebron has been dominating the league for 13 seasons, every season (with the exception of the previous one) since 2006.
• Jordan "only" did it for 10 seasons (1986 - 1992 and 1995-1997).

It's pretty fair to say both of them had a similar level impact when they were in their prime, if there is a difference then it's slightly in favour for Jordan, but it's really pretty negligible. None of these players will lead you to a title by themselves versus regular competition, they all need the appropriate support and roster constructed around them.

So basically it comes down to 13 GOAT years vs 10 GOAT years, it's understandable to choose Jordan over Lebron since he did lead his team to 6 titles over Lebron's 3, but when Lebron wins 4 the case is pretty much clear-cut.

*I'm bad arithmetic, corrected some numbers.
Lebron is playing on the ONLY super team in the league. He created another super team. Only team with 2 1st teamers.

I'd argue that a championship this year not only doesn't move the needle, but it wiggles it backwards before returning to the center.

Lebron created another super team. Get real.

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Lakers are definitely not a super team this year. The skill level drops tremendously after LeBron and AD.

The Master · Post #270 » by **The Master** » Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:44 am

Jaqua92 wrote:Lebron is playing on the ONLY super team in the league.

Lakers aren't 'super team', they're just very strong contender like many teams before. Yeah, they're stacked at the top with with LeBron and AD, but their third best player throughout this season is ... Alex Caruso? KCP? Kuzma? 35yo Dwight as a backup?

Lakers are 'super team' that:
- before season was doubted by many whether they are even contender per se
- during season most people thought Clippers have more upside
- before playoffs many people thought 8th seed can make an upset here and eliminate Lakers, and media run narrative about how much in trouble Lakers will be against Blazers

That's clearly a perception every super team receives throughout a season.

No one is denying that Lakers turned out to be one of the top contenders in the league, but when people post factum pretend that Lakers are super team because in fact they may win a whole thing it is so delusional.

Or, in other words, imagine that you put rookie Bojan Bogdanovic and Brad Wanamaker in place of LeBron in this Lakers team, they win 55 games next year, and then play seven close matches in playoffs with a team that was close to win championship later that year.

Oh, wait, I'm talking about Chicago Bulls in '94 after first Jordan's retirement, that replaced Jordan with Peter Myers from Italy and Toni Kukoc, who was 11-4-3 on 49%TS as a rookie, yet they won 55 games and played close 7-matches series against Knicks, who lost NBA Finals in fourth quarter of game 7.

Not to mention that this Knicks' team was one of the best teams Jordan met during his first 3peat period. Basically his support was good enough to play toe to toe against one of his best opponents without him.

Bigfactsstackz · Post #271 » by **Bigfactsstackz** » Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:20 am

The Master wrote:
Jaqua92 wrote:Lebron is playing on the ONLY super team in the league.

Lakers aren't 'super team', they're just very strong contender like many teams before. Yeah, they're stacked at the top with with LeBron and AD, but their third best player throughout this season is ... Alex Caruso? KCP? Kuzma? 35yo Dwight as a backup?

Lakers are 'super team' that:
- before season was doubted by many whether they are even contender per se
- during season most people thought Clippers have more upside
- before playoffs many people thought 8th seed can make an upset here and eliminate Lakers, and media run narrative about how much in trouble Lakers will be against Blazers

That's clearly a perception every super team receives throughout a season.

No one is denying that Lakers turned out to be one of the top contenders in the league, but when people post factum pretend that Lakers are super team because in fact they may win a whole thing it is so delusional.

Or, in other words, imagine that you put rookie Bojan Bogdanovic and Brad Wanamaker in place of LeBron in this Lakers team, they win 55 games next year, and then play seven close matches in playoffs with a team that was close to win championship later that year.

Oh, wait, I'm talking about Chicago Bulls in '94 after first Jordan's retirement, that replaced Jordan with Peter Myers from Italy and Toni Kukoc, who was 11-4-3 on 49%TS as a rookie, yet they won 55 games and played close 7-matches series against Knicks, who lost NBA Finals in fourth quarter of game 7.

Not to mention that this Knicks' team was one of the best teams Jordan met during his first 3peat period. Basically his support was good enough to play toe to toe against one of his best opponents without him.

Big difference the bulls were a team that won three straight rings with vets that knew how to win basketball games comparing them to the lakers minus Lebron isn’t a good comparison at all .

mademan · Post #272 » by **mademan** » Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:23 am

Lebron stans or Lebron haters gonna have a stroke by the end of this playoffs. Either way, its gonna be fun

twyzted · Post #273 » by **twyzted** » Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:29 am

The Master wrote:
Jaqua92 wrote:Lebron is playing on the ONLY super team in the league.

Lakers aren't 'super team', they're just very strong contender like many teams before. Yeah, they're stacked at the top with with LeBron and AD, but their third best player throughout this season is ... Alex Caruso? KCP? Kuzma? 35yo Dwight as a backup?

Lakers are 'super team' that:
- before season was doubted by many whether they are even contender per se
- during season most people thought Clippers have more upside
- before playoffs many people thought 8th seed can make an upset here and eliminate Lakers, and media run narrative about how much in trouble Lakers will be against Blazers

That's clearly a perception every super team receives throughout a season.

No one is denying that Lakers turned out to be one of the top contenders in the league, but when people post factum pretend that Lakers are super team because in fact they may win a whole thing it is so delusional.

Or, in other words, imagine that you put rookie Bojan Bogdanovic and Brad Wanamaker in place of LeBron in this Lakers team, they win 55 games next year, and then play seven close matches in playoffs with a team that was close to win championship later that year.

Oh, wait, I'm talking about Chicago Bulls in '94 after first Jordan's retirement, that replaced Jordan with Peter Myers from Italy and Toni Kukoc, who was 11-4-3 on 49%TS as a rookie, yet they won 55 games and played close 7-matches series against Knicks, who lost NBA Finals in fourth quarter of game 7.

Not to mention that this Knicks' team was one of the best teams Jordan met during his first 3peat period. Basically his support was good enough to play toe to toe against one of his best opponents without him.

The bulls added toni kukoc (one of the best european player ever), Steve kerr, Luc Longley and pete meyers.

Kukoc is much better than bojan bogdanovic,
2xolympic silver.
2xeuro basket champiom
1xworld cup.
3xeuro league final 4 mvp (he and Vassilis Spanoulis are the only guys who have done it)
2xtriple crown winner.
Plus 4x yugoslavian champion and 1 italian champion.
Vs bojan 2x national championship.
That was all before he came into the nba :lol:

and he was much better playmaker than bojan.

Then what happened the next season after Horace left and they got Ron Harper?
34-31 before someone came and helped them to 47-34.

JoeyLightYears · Post #274 » by **JoeyLightYears** » Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:37 am

X_O_Z wrote:[ MJ and despite of his early struggles never give up.

MJ literally quit basketball to go play baseball in the middle of his prime.

QPR · Post #275 » by **QPR** » Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:42 am

Jaqua92 wrote:Lebron is playing on the ONLY super team in the league. He created another super team. Only team with 2 1st teamers.

Does that also apply to the 1995/96 Bulls who had two first teamers (and also 3 all-defensive first teamers and the 6th man of the year)?

Or is that different because MJ didn't "create" that team?

Jaqua92 · Post #276 » by **Jaqua92** » Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:46 am

ninjamilk23 wrote:
Jaqua92 wrote:
WestGOAT wrote:• Lebron has been dominating the league for 13 seasons, every season (with the exception of the previous one) since 2006.
• Jordan "only" did it for 10 seasons (1986 - 1992 and 1995-1997).

It's pretty fair to say both of them had a similar level impact when they were in their prime, if there is a difference then it's slightly in favour for Jordan, but it's really pretty negligible. None of these players will lead you to a title by themselves versus regular competition, they all need the appropriate support and roster constructed around them.

So basically it comes down to 13 GOAT years vs 10 GOAT years, it's understandable to choose Jordan over Lebron since he did lead his team to 6 titles over Lebron's 3, but when Lebron wins 4 the case is pretty much clear-cut.

*I'm bad arithmetic, corrected some numbers.
Lebron is playing on the ONLY super team in the league. He created another super team. Only team with 2 1st teamers.

I'd argue that a championship this year not only doesn't move the needle, but it wiggles it backwards before returning to the center.

Lebron created another super team. Get real.

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Lakers are definitely not a super team this year. The skill level drops tremendously after LeBron and AD.

So what?

Lebron and AD. Two super stars. No one else has two superstars.

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The Master · Post #277 » by **The Master** » Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:47 am

Bigfactsstackz wrote:Big difference the bulls were a team that won three straight rings with vets that knew how to win basketball games comparing them to the lakers minus Lebron isn’t a good comparison at all .

Lakers have many experienced role players as well like Rondo, Dwight, Green or Morris and Bradley, in fact they have the oldest roster in the NBA.

twyzted wrote:The bulls added toni kukoc (one of the best european player ever), Steve kerr, Luc Longley and pete meyers.

Kukoc in his first year was 11-4-3 on 49.7%TS with .086WS/48 and 1.0 BPM, he also needed his adjustment period in the NBA. He was very useful in PO though.

Pippen was 3rd and 6th in MVP voting in 94-95. So was it a 'super team' and these rings doesn't count?

And I'm not trying to downplay Jordan's impact, his GOAT impact is visible by a fact he improved this team realistically by 5-6 points of SRS, that's historic. But these haters have to calm down with 'super team' and 'irrelevant ring' cards. :lol:

Jaqua92 · Post #278 » by **Jaqua92** » Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:47 am

The Master wrote:
Jaqua92 wrote:Lebron is playing on the ONLY super team in the league.

Lakers aren't 'super team', they're just very strong contender like many teams before. Yeah, they're stacked at the top with with LeBron and AD, but their third best player throughout this season is ... Alex Caruso? KCP? Kuzma? 35yo Dwight as a backup?

Lakers are 'super team' that:
- before season was doubted by many whether they are even contender per se
- during season most people thought Clippers have more upside
- before playoffs many people thought 8th seed can make an upset here and eliminate Lakers, and media run narrative about how much in trouble Lakers will be against Blazers

That's clearly a perception every super team receives throughout a season.

No one is denying that Lakers turned out to be one of the top contenders in the league, but when people post factum pretend that Lakers are super team because in fact they may win a whole thing it is so delusional.

Or, in other words, imagine that you put rookie Bojan Bogdanovic and Brad Wanamaker in place of LeBron in this Lakers team, they win 55 games next year, and then play seven close matches in playoffs with a team that was close to win championship later that year.

Oh, wait, I'm talking about Chicago Bulls in '94 after first Jordan's retirement, that replaced Jordan with Peter Myers from Italy and Toni Kukoc, who was 11-4-3 on 49%TS as a rookie, yet they won 55 games and played close 7-matches series against Knicks, who lost NBA Finals in fourth quarter of game 7.

Not to mention that this Knicks' team was one of the best teams Jordan met during his first 3peat period. Basically his support was good enough to play toe to toe against one of his best opponents without him.

There was NO doubt about them being contenders. Everyone knew they were a favorite and likely THE favorite. Rivisionist history imo. Not even reading the rest, tbh.

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Jaqua92 · Post #279 » by **Jaqua92** » Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:49 am

QPR wrote:
Jaqua92 wrote:Lebron is playing on the ONLY super team in the league. He created another super team. Only team with 2 1st teamers.

Does that also apply to the 1995/96 Bulls who had two first teamers (and also 3 all-defensive first teamers and the 6th man of the year)?

Or is that different because MJ didn't "create" that team?

That bulls team? Of course. But they were all home grown. That was one team. Bulls weren't the only team with top end talent.

Again...Lebron had to create teams. You have no counter to that other than the bobbing and weaving to invalidate MJ and pick apart my logic, rather than justify why Lebron creating super teams should be respected. I see you.

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JoeyLightYears · Post #280 » by **JoeyLightYears** » Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:53 am

Jaqua92 wrote:Lebron is playing on the ONLY super team in the league. He created another super team. Only team with 2 1st teamers.

I'd argue that a championship this year not only doesn't move the needle, but it wiggles it backwards before returning to the center.

Lebron created another super team. Get real.

Stripping titles from players with a 1st teamer teammate is gonna rewrite the history books worse than when Lance Armstrong doped the tour. Magic loses two. Kobe loses three. Curry loses one. Even the great MJ loses one.

Surprisingly LeBron loses none.. so I guess your little adjustment is good for his legacy.