Around the League 2020 Playoffs

[MGrand15]

Read on Twitter

I need to find a way to inject this tweet directly into my veins

[vincecarter4pres]

I think Tatum + Brown + Smart is a good support cast if you have that #1 option franchise level player(Lebron, KD, Curry level)

Their problem is they wasted their cap space on Hayward and Kemba who are mediocre allstars as I'd call them.

They still have a good young core but until they add that piece or Tatum reaches that SUPERSTAR level they'll never win it all.

Miami does not have that superstar player either BUT they are better on DEFENSE than the Celtics without any doubts.

Offensivelly they are similar but Miami is just that little but significant bit better than they are on D and THAT is the difference as of now.

I'll say this for the Celtics, there are only so many LeBron's, KD's, Curry's and Kawhi's. Like 4 of them lol. Now we see Doncic and Murray looking to join the party, a couple others I'm forgetting or in their 1st or 2nd season, maybe not even drafted yet, so yet to breakout. But point being, only so many true lead your team to a title players in the league at any given time. You have a few others who can be #2's all season, maybe 1's who aren't held in as high regard, but they can be the best player in the playoffs, period. Player like Butler, Kyrie, Donovan Mitchell, Jokic, etc. Tatum is almost certainly headed for the latter, if he isn't already there. It's only what, his 4th season? I don't know if he ever wins a title, but give it 2 or 3 seasons and we'll see if he hits that plateau.

[Hello Brooklyn]

If Boston-Miami is the best the East can do, then I'm less worried about next year.

Neither of those teams have anyone as good as either KD or Kyrie.

[Papi_swav]

If Boston-Miami is the best the East can do, then I'm less worried about next year.

Neither of those teams have anyone as good as either KD or Kyrie.

As of right now you are correct. But if Miami adds a star there, like Giannis, then I would be nervous then.

[Hello Brooklyn]

If Boston-Miami is the best the East can do, then I'm less worried about next year.

Neither of those teams have anyone as good as either KD or Kyrie.

As of right now you are correct. But if Miami adds a star there, like Giannis, then I would be nervous then.

Yeah but no way does this happen this off season. Giannis has already said hes nit asking for a trade.

[Papi_swav]

If Boston-Miami is the best the East can do, then I'm less worried about next year.

Neither of those teams have anyone as good as either KD or Kyrie.

As of right now you are correct. But if Miami adds a star there, like Giannis, then I would be nervous then.

Yeah but no way does this happen this off season. Giannis has already said hes nit asking for a trade.

Yea we have a 3-4 year window, we need to win it next year, not to put alot of pressure but things can change in 2 years and beyond. I expect nothing short of finals next year

[gigantes]

Great, a Lakers win. Now we have to wait for a Nuggets win and two more Lakers wins before this series can really get started.

Ho hum.

[vincecarter4pres]

I won't count Denver out of this series until they lose 5 games.

[MrDollarBills]

Read on Twitter

I need to find a way to inject this tweet directly into my veins

This is the 2nd time that we know of that Jaylen Brown got into it with a veteran.

Watch on YouTube

Now I like Jaylen Brown, but I find it hilarious that Kyrie was blamed for everything and dudes in Boston still are being toxic. Says to me that they have a culture problem.

[Hello Brooklyn]

Its way better for us if Lakers win it this year. Then theres way less pressure on LeBron to win again. "

They are the only team with top level talent that even looks good this year.

[gigantes]

Before this series started, I was thinking to myself... "if the Celts lose again, that will make FIVE straight years of being an elite or near-elite team, unable to emerge from the East." Then I figured nyeah, probably not. But now?

Code: Select all

Season    GP   W    L    W–L%   Finish          Playoffs
2015–16   82   48   34   .585   2nd, Atlantic   Lost in First Round, 2–4 (Hawks)
2016–17   82   53   29   .646   1st, Atlantic   Lost in Conference Finals, 1–4 (Cavaliers)
2017–18   82   55   27   .671   2nd, Atlantic   Lost in Conference Finals, 3–4 (Cavaliers)
2018–19   82   49   33   .598   3rd, Atlantic   Lost in Conference Semifinals, 1–4 (Bucks)
2019–20   72   48   24   .667   2nd, Atlantic   TBD

Replying to myself--

Beyond the obvious shitty-joy (er, schadenfreude), I think I'll actually feel a little sad if the Celts fail again.
Like, it's not just that their last five years of promise will have amounted to consistent disappointments, it's also that each of their regular seasons should arguably have been more epic as well. Because every year, no matter the shifting personnel, it seems like they have as much talent as anyone else in the East.

Of course on the surface, LeBron's Cavs were a big part of that, but in actual practice? I'm not so sure. And Boston should particularly be kicking itself for losing that conference finals game seven at home in 2018.

What happened, Boston? You were supposed to be Billy King's (i.e. Prokhy's) chosen one!

[therealbig3]

Before this series started, I was thinking to myself... "if the Celts lose again, that will make FIVE straight years of being an elite or near-elite team, unable to emerge from the East." Then I figured nyeah, probably not. But now?

Code: Select all

Season    GP   W    L    W–L%   Finish          Playoffs
2015–16   82   48   34   .585   2nd, Atlantic   Lost in First Round, 2–4 (Hawks)
2016–17   82   53   29   .646   1st, Atlantic   Lost in Conference Finals, 1–4 (Cavaliers)
2017–18   82   55   27   .671   2nd, Atlantic   Lost in Conference Finals, 3–4 (Cavaliers)
2018–19   82   49   33   .598   3rd, Atlantic   Lost in Conference Semifinals, 1–4 (Bucks)
2019–20   72   48   24   .667   2nd, Atlantic   TBD

Replying to myself--

Beyond the obvious shitty-joy (er, schadenfreude), I think I'll actually feel a little sad if the Celts fail again.
Like, it's not just that their last five years of promise will have amounted to consistent disappointments, it's also that each of their regular seasons should arguably have been more epic as well. Because every year, no matter the shifting personnel, it seems like they have as much talent as anyone else in the East.

Of course on the surface, LeBron's Cavs were a big part of that, but in actual practice? I'm not so sure. And Boston should particularly be kicking itself for losing that conference finals game seven at home in 2018.

What happened, Boston? You were supposed to be Billy King's (i.e. Prokhy's) chosen one!

Combo of injuries (Hayward has turned out to be one of the worst contracts ever, and Kyrie missed their 2018 playoff run), and just the nature of the NBA. There’s only one winner every year, and LeBron was owning the East for years. I think the Celtics have had an excellent run, and can still get better. Nothing to be ashamed of.

[gigantes]

Combo of injuries (Hayward has turned out to be one of the worst contracts ever, and Kyrie missed their 2018 playoff run), and just the nature of the NBA. There’s only one winner every year, and LeBron was owning the East for years. I think the Celtics have had an excellent run, and can still get better. Nothing to be ashamed of.

There's nothing to be ashamed of, and I know all that, just that it has to wear on a fanbase thinking each season "this could be the big one" and then falling significantly short. Year after year. After year.

But actually I don't seem to hear much complaining about this stuff from Celts fans, and I guess that's to their credit. Maybe it helps that they have some other good teams in New England. But aside from that, I can definitely respect a fanbase that's content with making a run every season, even if it falls short.

By comparison, I certainly wouldn't be surprised if there's a world of bitching and moaning on Nets' forums, after next season.

[therealbig3]

Gotta say, wasn't overly impressed with Davis until these playoffs. Great player, probably top 10, but I never considered him more than that. But man, he's been so dominant in these playoffs, on both ends of the court. Don't think I'm ready to say he's better than LeBron, but other than LeBron, not sure if anyone else is better. His defense is best in the game level, and he seemed like an empty numbers guy on offense before, but that hasn't been the case at all in these playoffs.

If I had to rank my top 5 players this season, I'd probably go:

1. LeBron
2. Davis
3. Jokic
4. Giannis
5. Harden

Then Kawhi/Doncic after that.

[MrDollarBills]

Gotta say, wasn't overly impressed with Davis until these playoffs. Great player, probably top 10, but I never considered him more than that. But man, he's been so dominant in these playoffs, on both ends of the court. Don't think I'm ready to say he's better than LeBron, but other than LeBron, not sure if anyone else is better. His defense is best in the game level, and he seemed like an empty numbers guy on offense before, but that hasn't been the case at all in these playoffs.

If I had to rank my top 5 players this season, I'd probably go:

1. LeBron
2. Davis
3. Jokic
4. Giannis
5. Harden

Then Kawhi/Doncic after that.

AD was probably pissed that Charles Barkley compared him to Derrick Coleman on national TV

[vincecarter4pres]

Gotta say, wasn't overly impressed with Davis until these playoffs. Great player, probably top 10, but I never considered him more than that. But man, he's been so dominant in these playoffs, on both ends of the court. Don't think I'm ready to say he's better than LeBron, but other than LeBron, not sure if anyone else is better. His defense is best in the game level, and he seemed like an empty numbers guy on offense before, but that hasn't been the case at all in these playoffs.

If I had to rank my top 5 players this season, I'd probably go:

1. LeBron
2. Davis
3. Jokic
4. Giannis
5. Harden

Then Kawhi/Doncic after that.

I'd be similar to you, but one different and the order overall different.

1. LeBron
2. Doncic
3. Davis
4. Jokic
5. Harden

Giannis would be at best 7th for me. Hot take, but he might even slip out of my top 10, to 11 or 12.

I'd have Kawhi at 6.

[MrDollarBills]

Gotta say, wasn't overly impressed with Davis until these playoffs. Great player, probably top 10, but I never considered him more than that. But man, he's been so dominant in these playoffs, on both ends of the court. Don't think I'm ready to say he's better than LeBron, but other than LeBron, not sure if anyone else is better. His defense is best in the game level, and he seemed like an empty numbers guy on offense before, but that hasn't been the case at all in these playoffs.

If I had to rank my top 5 players this season, I'd probably go:

1. LeBron
2. Davis
3. Jokic
4. Giannis
5. Harden

Then Kawhi/Doncic after that.

I'd be similar to you, but one different and the order overall different.

1. LeBron
2. Doncic
3. Davis
4. Jokic
5. Harden

Giannis would be at best 7th for me. Hot take, but he might even slip out of my top 10, to 11 or 12.

I'd have Kawhi at 6.

The league MVP is not the 13th best player in the league. I know everyone is reacting to what happened but I'm not taking too many players over Giannis at this point outside of Lebron, Luka, and a healthy KD.

[vincecarter4pres]

Gotta say, wasn't overly impressed with Davis until these playoffs. Great player, probably top 10, but I never considered him more than that. But man, he's been so dominant in these playoffs, on both ends of the court. Don't think I'm ready to say he's better than LeBron, but other than LeBron, not sure if anyone else is better. His defense is best in the game level, and he seemed like an empty numbers guy on offense before, but that hasn't been the case at all in these playoffs.

If I had to rank my top 5 players this season, I'd probably go:

1. LeBron
2. Davis
3. Jokic
4. Giannis
5. Harden

Then Kawhi/Doncic after that.

I'd be similar to you, but one different and the order overall different.

1. LeBron
2. Doncic
3. Davis
4. Jokic
5. Harden

Giannis would be at best 7th for me. Hot take, but he might even slip out of my top 10, to 11 or 12.

I'd have Kawhi at 6.

The league MVP is not the 13th best player in the league. I know everyone is reacting to what happened but I'm not taking too many players over Giannis at this point outside of Lebron, Luka, and a healthy KD.

I don't think it's even recency bias for me, I've just always been suspect on his meteoric rise these last few years. It's like Derrick Rose was to me his MVP year before the injuries, or Russ. It's not that I'm calling them bad players, but I personally never agreed with their MVP status to begin with. Rose's MVP year I think I had him rated at 7th/8th best in the league and similar with Westbrick. MVP isn't best player, it's most valuable, which I myself often have trouble accepting and/or separating.

Giannis just cannot score in the playoffs in any of the pressure/harder matchups in the half court with any kind of consistency or efficiency. He has trouble dribbling the ball much and can't shoot. He's an athletic freak, but he isn't very good at actual basketball, at least when we're talking at the NBA star level, let alone superstar MVP level. I see people bring up Shaq in that vein and I don't see it. Shaq was lazy and too big to do enough cardio to really stay in shape, but he was immensely skilled as a big man, both naturally and from putting in the work. He definitely could have been better if he dedicated more. And my point is not that Giannis hasn't or won't continue to put in work. He's come a long way from what he was as a rookie. But I think he needs to be your second best player and 3rd option if you have realistic championship aspirations.

Like there are guys I rank below him, who I'd still take everyday plus leap year over him in the playoffs or for one game, pick your poison. Guys like Mitchell, Murray and Beal for example.

Next year KD and Curry are easily over him for me in straight up rankings assuming 85%+ health. Kyrie might leapfrog him again. You have a host of guys like Bam, KAT, Ja Morant, Trae and Booker, along with other long shots like J3, and even Ayton and Porzingis who have a legitimate chance to be better.

For right now though, this current season, I'd rate Tatum over him, along with Jimmy Butler and Lillard is on the fringe for me, though I'd take Giannis.

So I'd have him:

1. LeBron
2. Doncic
3. Davis
4. Jokic
5. Harden
6. Kawhi
7. Butler
8. Tatum
9. Giannis

And next year, without him getting a lick worse, maybe even improving a hair, I can see him falling somewhere into that 10 to 15 range.

I'm a big fan of Giannis on the right team. I couldn't say the same for Wetbrook and to an extent not Rose either, though he was so young, if he never got hurt he may have been one of the league's truly elite. But i think he's somewhat become a product of the NBA hype machine because of his athleticism, personality and squeaky clean image. To me he is a star, a fringe superstar, but he's on an entire tier level below 1-6, who probably have 2 or 3 of their own tier levels in that group and if Curry and KD comeback like they can and a couple guys like Murray and Mitchell take another step, it could be like 1-11 followed by him.

[MrDollarBills]

I'd be similar to you, but one different and the order overall different.

1. LeBron
2. Doncic
3. Davis
4. Jokic
5. Harden

Giannis would be at best 7th for me. Hot take, but he might even slip out of my top 10, to 11 or 12.

I'd have Kawhi at 6.

The league MVP is not the 13th best player in the league. I know everyone is reacting to what happened but I'm not taking too many players over Giannis at this point outside of Lebron, Luka, and a healthy KD.

I don't think it's even recency bias for me, I've just always been suspect on his meteoric rise these last few years. It's like Derrick Rose was to me his MVP year before the injuries, or Russ. It's not that I'm calling them bad players, but I personally never agreed with their MVP status to begin with. Rose's MVP year I think I had him rated at 7th/8th best in the league and similar with Westbrick. MVP isn't best player, it's most valuable, which I myself often have trouble accepting and/or separating.

Giannis just cannot score in the playoffs in any of the pressure/harder matchups in the half court with any kind of consistency or efficiency. He has trouble dribbling the ball much and can't shoot. He's an athletic freak, but he isn't very good at actual basketball, at least when we're talking at the NBA star level, let alone superstar MVP level. I see people bring up Shaq in that vein and I don't see it. Shaq was lazy and too big to do enough cardio to really stay in shape, but he was immensely skilled as a big man, both naturally and from putting in the work. He definitely could have been better if he dedicated more. And my point is not that Giannis hasn't or won't continue to put in work. He's come a long way from what he was as a rookie. But I think he needs to be your second best player and 3rd option if you have realistic championship aspirations.

Like there are guys I rank below him, who I'd still take everyday plus leap year over him in the playoffs or for one game, pick your poison. Guys like Mitchell, Murray and Beal for example.

Next year KD and Curry are easily over him for me in straight up rankings assuming 85%+ health. Kyrie might leapfrog him again. You have a host of guys like Bam, KAT, Ja Morant, Trae and Booker, along with other long shots like J3, and even Ayton and Porzingis who have a legitimate chance to be better.

For right now though, this current season, I'd rate Tatum over him, along with Jimmy Butler and Lillard is on the fringe for me, though I'd take Giannis.

So I'd have him:

1. LeBron
2. Doncic
3. Davis
4. Jokic
5. Harden
6. Kawhi
7. Butler
8. Tatum
9. Giannis

And next year, without him getting a lick worse, maybe even improving a hair, I can see him falling somewhere into that 10 to 15 range.

I'm a big fan of Giannis on the right team. I couldn't say the same for Wetbrook and to an extent not Rose either, though he was so young, if he never got hurt he may have been one of the league's truly elite. But i think he's somewhat become a product of the NBA hype machine because of his athleticism, personality and squeaky clean image. To me he is a star, a fringe superstar, but he's on an entire tier level below 1-6, who probably have 2 or 3 of their own tier levels in that group and if Curry and KD comeback like they can and a couple guys like Murray and Mitchell take another step, it could be like 1-11 followed by him.

I think he has room to improve his game to make it far into the playoffs, and he also needs better players around him, but I don't think he's a hype machine product at all, nor do I think a lot of the players you've mentioned are even coming close to playing NBA MVP level basketball like he has. His numbers and advanced metrics take a fat crap over literally everyone you've mentioned outside of the top 8 guys +KD, Curry, Dame and Kyrie. Jason Tatum is not a top ten player at this point.

You notify me when guys like Ayton, KAT, Booker, etc even come close to posting a 32 PER rating or whatever gaudy ass metrics Giannis posted this season. Til then, I think he's an elite superstar talent that needs to take a step forward with his shooting, or possibly even shift over to center to maximize his current abilities.

[gigantes]

Giannis isn't as successful in the playoffs, and definitely has his weaknesses, but you still have to build your entire defense around stopping him, then hope that (as usual) his teammates provide him with an underwhelming amount of shooting, ball-handling and shot-creation. Meanwhile, he's still a killer defender, which a lot of those other guys can't necessarily say.

Btw, 538's RAPTOR added the ability to sort by playoffs data. The top guys sorted by RAPTOR score are:

Code: Select all

Anthony Davis      +13.5   4.0
Donovan Mitchell   +11.3   1.9
James Harden      +10.5   3.1
Kyle Lowry         +9.3   2.6
LeBron James      +9.2   2.9
Kawhi Leonard      +9.2   3.2
Jamal Murray      +8.7   3.9
Serge Ibaka      +6.7   1.3
Bam Adebayo      +6.4   2.1
Jayson Tatum      +6.4   2.7

First number is their advanced BPM. Second is WAR.

Davis really is crushing it, as someone was saying earlier.