Around the League 2020 Playoffs

[vincecarter4pres]

The league MVP is not the 13th best player in the league. I know everyone is reacting to what happened but I'm not taking too many players over Giannis at this point outside of Lebron, Luka, and a healthy KD.

I don't think it's even recency bias for me, I've just always been suspect on his meteoric rise these last few years. It's like Derrick Rose was to me his MVP year before the injuries, or Russ. It's not that I'm calling them bad players, but I personally never agreed with their MVP status to begin with. Rose's MVP year I think I had him rated at 7th/8th best in the league and similar with Westbrick. MVP isn't best player, it's most valuable, which I myself often have trouble accepting and/or separating.

Giannis just cannot score in the playoffs in any of the pressure/harder matchups in the half court with any kind of consistency or efficiency. He has trouble dribbling the ball much and can't shoot. He's an athletic freak, but he isn't very good at actual basketball, at least when we're talking at the NBA star level, let alone superstar MVP level. I see people bring up Shaq in that vein and I don't see it. Shaq was lazy and too big to do enough cardio to really stay in shape, but he was immensely skilled as a big man, both naturally and from putting in the work. He definitely could have been better if he dedicated more. And my point is not that Giannis hasn't or won't continue to put in work. He's come a long way from what he was as a rookie. But I think he needs to be your second best player and 3rd option if you have realistic championship aspirations.

Like there are guys I rank below him, who I'd still take everyday plus leap year over him in the playoffs or for one game, pick your poison. Guys like Mitchell, Murray and Beal for example.

Next year KD and Curry are easily over him for me in straight up rankings assuming 85%+ health. Kyrie might leapfrog him again. You have a host of guys like Bam, KAT, Ja Morant, Trae and Booker, along with other long shots like J3, and even Ayton and Porzingis who have a legitimate chance to be better.

For right now though, this current season, I'd rate Tatum over him, along with Jimmy Butler and Lillard is on the fringe for me, though I'd take Giannis.

So I'd have him:

1. LeBron
2. Doncic
3. Davis
4. Jokic
5. Harden
6. Kawhi
7. Butler
8. Tatum
9. Giannis

And next year, without him getting a lick worse, maybe even improving a hair, I can see him falling somewhere into that 10 to 15 range.

I'm a big fan of Giannis on the right team. I couldn't say the same for Wetbrook and to an extent not Rose either, though he was so young, if he never got hurt he may have been one of the league's truly elite. But i think he's somewhat become a product of the NBA hype machine because of his athleticism, personality and squeaky clean image. To me he is a star, a fringe superstar, but he's on an entire tier level below 1-6, who probably have 2 or 3 of their own tier levels in that group and if Curry and KD comeback like they can and a couple guys like Murray and Mitchell take another step, it could be like 1-11 followed by him.

I think he has room to improve his game to make it far into the playoffs, and he also needs better players around him, but I don't think he's a hype machine product at all, nor do I think a lot of the players you've mentioned are even coming close to playing NBA MVP level basketball like he has. His numbers and advanced metrics take a fat crap over literally everyone you've mentioned outside of the top 8 guys +KD, Curry, Dame and Kyrie. Jason Tatum is not a top ten player at this point.

You notify me when guys like Ayton, KAT, Booker, etc even come close to posting a 32 PER rating or whatever gaudy ass metrics Giannis posted this season. Til then, I think he's an elite superstar talent that needs to take a step forward with his shooting, or possibly even shift over to center to maximize his current abilities.

Quite honestly I almost certainly underrate him.

And for sure he’s young enough, a hard enough worker and on a trajectory to continue improving for a few seasons, so point definitely taken that he hasn’t even necessarily or likely plateaued.

I probably just don’t appreciate him enough because when he’s in the half court his game isn’t aesthetically pleasing and he has most certainly been a disappointment for a few seasons when he gets to the biggest stage, but you do make a good point of a suspect supporting cast. Though, only to an extent, because not to discount anything Miami is doing this playoffs, but they went out tragically poor and Giannis does have the pieces that fit around him where they shouldn’t have struggled that mightily and shortly.

Your thoughts of him playing center are also a sentiment I’d echo, especially in the right matchup or on the right roster.

The suspect handle is one thing, but he needs to improve that or his shooting.

His stats are ridiculous though and his defense and rebounding is also elite.

One has to wonder if he’s the Dwight Howard of forwards/this generation though.

[MrDollarBills]

I don't think it's even recency bias for me, I've just always been suspect on his meteoric rise these last few years. It's like Derrick Rose was to me his MVP year before the injuries, or Russ. It's not that I'm calling them bad players, but I personally never agreed with their MVP status to begin with. Rose's MVP year I think I had him rated at 7th/8th best in the league and similar with Westbrick. MVP isn't best player, it's most valuable, which I myself often have trouble accepting and/or separating.

Giannis just cannot score in the playoffs in any of the pressure/harder matchups in the half court with any kind of consistency or efficiency. He has trouble dribbling the ball much and can't shoot. He's an athletic freak, but he isn't very good at actual basketball, at least when we're talking at the NBA star level, let alone superstar MVP level. I see people bring up Shaq in that vein and I don't see it. Shaq was lazy and too big to do enough cardio to really stay in shape, but he was immensely skilled as a big man, both naturally and from putting in the work. He definitely could have been better if he dedicated more. And my point is not that Giannis hasn't or won't continue to put in work. He's come a long way from what he was as a rookie. But I think he needs to be your second best player and 3rd option if you have realistic championship aspirations.

Like there are guys I rank below him, who I'd still take everyday plus leap year over him in the playoffs or for one game, pick your poison. Guys like Mitchell, Murray and Beal for example.

Next year KD and Curry are easily over him for me in straight up rankings assuming 85%+ health. Kyrie might leapfrog him again. You have a host of guys like Bam, KAT, Ja Morant, Trae and Booker, along with other long shots like J3, and even Ayton and Porzingis who have a legitimate chance to be better.

For right now though, this current season, I'd rate Tatum over him, along with Jimmy Butler and Lillard is on the fringe for me, though I'd take Giannis.

So I'd have him:

1. LeBron
2. Doncic
3. Davis
4. Jokic
5. Harden
6. Kawhi
7. Butler
8. Tatum
9. Giannis

And next year, without him getting a lick worse, maybe even improving a hair, I can see him falling somewhere into that 10 to 15 range.

I'm a big fan of Giannis on the right team. I couldn't say the same for Wetbrook and to an extent not Rose either, though he was so young, if he never got hurt he may have been one of the league's truly elite. But i think he's somewhat become a product of the NBA hype machine because of his athleticism, personality and squeaky clean image. To me he is a star, a fringe superstar, but he's on an entire tier level below 1-6, who probably have 2 or 3 of their own tier levels in that group and if Curry and KD comeback like they can and a couple guys like Murray and Mitchell take another step, it could be like 1-11 followed by him.

I think he has room to improve his game to make it far into the playoffs, and he also needs better players around him, but I don't think he's a hype machine product at all, nor do I think a lot of the players you've mentioned are even coming close to playing NBA MVP level basketball like he has. His numbers and advanced metrics take a fat crap over literally everyone you've mentioned outside of the top 8 guys +KD, Curry, Dame and Kyrie. Jason Tatum is not a top ten player at this point.

You notify me when guys like Ayton, KAT, Booker, etc even come close to posting a 32 PER rating or whatever gaudy ass metrics Giannis posted this season. Til then, I think he's an elite superstar talent that needs to take a step forward with his shooting, or possibly even shift over to center to maximize his current abilities.

Quite honestly I almost certainly underrate him.

And for sure he’s young enough, a hard enough worker and on a trajectory to continue improving for a few seasons, so point definitely taken that he hasn’t even necessarily or likely plateaued.

I probably just don’t appreciate him enough because when he’s in the half court his game isn’t aesthetically pleasing and he has most certainly been a disappointment for a few seasons when he gets to the biggest stage, but you do make a good point of a suspect supporting cast. Though, only to an extent, because not to discount anything Miami is doing this playoffs, but they went out tragically poor and Giannis does have the pieces that fit around him where they shouldn’t have struggled that mightily and shortly.

Your thoughts of him playing center are also a sentiment I’d echo, especially in the right matchup or on the right roster.

The suspect handle is one thing, but he needs to improve that or his shooting.

His stats are ridiculous though and his defense and rebounding is also elite.

One has to wonder if he’s the Dwight Howard of forwards/this generation though.

He's 6'11 245, I think he can play center. I think you need to pair him with another scorer that can create his own shot, and surround Giannis with shooters. Eric Bledsoe stinks. They let Malcolm Brogdon go. I would say that they need a bit more than what they had on the perimeter. I would put Giannis at center and have shooting at spots 1-4 and dare teams to pack the middle.

Either way, he needs to work on his mid range J and raising his 3 point shot to at least 35%. Having a reliable pull up J in the mid range is what all elite players should possess.

[NyCeEvO]

Gotta say, wasn't overly impressed with Davis until these playoffs. Great player, probably top 10, but I never considered him more than that. But man, he's been so dominant in these playoffs, on both ends of the court. Don't think I'm ready to say he's better than LeBron, but other than LeBron, not sure if anyone else is better. His defense is best in the game level, and he seemed like an empty numbers guy on offense before, but that hasn't been the case at all in these playoffs.

If I had to rank my top 5 players this season, I'd probably go:

1. LeBron
2. Davis
3. Jokic
4. Giannis
5. Harden

Then Kawhi/Doncic after that.

You weren’t overly impressed with Davis in the past because he was by himself. LBJ’s gravity, dominance, and dominance frees up Davis to excel and focus on doing what he’s supremely gifted at. There’s nothing that AD is doing right now that he wasn’t doing before; he just wasn’t playing alongside a guy who is essentially Magic Johnson with a dominant drive game, finishing ability, and jumpshot.

AD is a fantastic player but the foundation of a successful team in today’s game is no longer predicated upon a team’s defense, but rather a team’s offense (i.e. the quality of your team’s scoring opportunities and ability to shoot from distance and pass unselfishly). To be clear, I am not saying that defense isn’t important to team success; but I am saying that rule changes (i.e. how illegal screens are called— or rather how they’re not called) has fundamentally shifted the balance of power such that offensive versatility has become the foundation of the league’s best teams, followed by team defense.

As a result of this, I have LBJ, Harden, and even Doncic as being more valuable than Giannis despite his greater defensive impact. It is much easier and more effective to center your team around a versatile offensive player in today’s game than someone like Giannis or AD who have a few extremely dominant offensive skills but lack excellence in several other offensive skills like the other aforementioned players. The more you that you are able to can concentrate offensive versatility into one player, the greater your star is, the more efficient/effective your team can be, and the higher the ceiling your team has. AD would not as effective as he is right now if he wasn’t playing with probably the league’s most versatile offensive player in history (at least in terms of the combined ability of passing, ISOing, shooting/scoring).

Until Giannis becomes a better long distance shooter and creative scorer, his teams will never win the championship with him as the #1 offensive option. In the same way, AD would never win a title without playing with a better, more versatile offensive option. The problem with stars like Giannis and AD is that they are so extremely gifted at a few skills (but average to above average at others) that we tend to overstate the value of their statistical dominance and can be fooled into believing that they are more valuable and effective than they actually are.

I know this might come off to some as being overly dismissing or critical of AD & Giannis, but to me it’s quite clear that the style of play in today’s modern game favors the offensive skills they are good but not super-elite at.

[MrDollarBills]

Gotta say, wasn't overly impressed with Davis until these playoffs. Great player, probably top 10, but I never considered him more than that. But man, he's been so dominant in these playoffs, on both ends of the court. Don't think I'm ready to say he's better than LeBron, but other than LeBron, not sure if anyone else is better. His defense is best in the game level, and he seemed like an empty numbers guy on offense before, but that hasn't been the case at all in these playoffs.

If I had to rank my top 5 players this season, I'd probably go:

1. LeBron
2. Davis
3. Jokic
4. Giannis
5. Harden

Then Kawhi/Doncic after that.

You weren’t overly impressed with Davis in the past because he was by himself. LBJ’s gravity, dominance, and dominance frees up Davis to excel and focus on doing what he’s supremely gifted at. There’s nothing that AD is doing right now that he wasn’t doing before; he just wasn’t playing alongside a guy who is essentially Magic Johnson with a dominant drive game, finishing ability, and jumpshot.

AD is a fantastic player but the foundation of a successful team in today’s game is no longer predicated upon a team’s defense, but rather a team’s offense (i.e. the quality of your team’s scoring opportunities and ability to shoot from distance and pass unselfishly). To be clear, I am not saying that defense isn’t important to team success; but I am saying that rule changes (i.e. how illegal screens are called— or rather how they’re not called) has fundamentally shifted the balance of power such that offensive versatility has become the foundation of the league’s best teams, followed by team defense.

As a result of this, I have LBJ, Harden, and even Doncic as being more valuable than Giannis despite his greater defensive impact. It is much easier and more effective to center your team around a versatile offensive player in today’s game than someone like Giannis or AD who have a few extremely dominant offensive skills but lack excellence in several other offensive skills like the other aforementioned players. The more you that you are able to can concentrate offensive versatility into one player, the greater your star is, the more efficient/effective your team can be, and the higher the ceiling your team has. AD would not as effective as he is right now if he wasn’t playing with probably the league’s most versatile offensive player in history (at least in terms of the combined ability of passing, ISOing, shooting/scoring).

Until Giannis becomes a better long distance shooter and creative scorer, his teams will never win the championship with him as the #1 offensive option. In the same way, AD would never win a title without playing with a better, more versatile offensive option. The problem with stars like Giannis and AD is that they are so extremely gifted at a few skills (but average to above average at others) that we tend to overstate the value of their statistical dominance and can be fooled into believing that they are more valuable and effective than they actually are.

I know this might come off to some as being overly dismissing or critical of AD & Giannis, but to me it’s quite clear that the style of play in today’s modern game favors the offensive skills they are good but not super-elite at.

You have to pair guys like AD and Giannis with an elite scoring talent. You cannot win with an elite big man alone, you need elite perimeter talent. There are a few exceptions like Hakeem in 1994 or Dirk in 2011, but most of the time you see a championship team with an elite big man they are always flanked by perimeter talent like Kobe, Dwayne Wade, Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili.

Khris Middleton ain't it. Put Giannis on the Nets with KD and Kyrie and he probably puts up a Shaq like campaign on the way to a championship.

[MrDollarBills]

You have to question the scouting around the league when Duncan Robinson goes undrafted in 2018 compared to a lot of the players who were drafted ahead of him. We took Musa, and there's no way in hell that anyone would say that Musa is better than Robinson. ugh.

[Claud]

Playoffs is where legends are made.

I remember even a young Lebron carried that crappy Cavs squad to a final vs. the Spurs.

AD has always been top 5 talent wise, but since he never made the playoffs in Nola people called him soft/trash/etc

Giannis is in somewhat similar situation. Giannis is definately one of the best players in the league but he is UNPROVEN in the playoffs. Until he wins he can't be considered the best player in the league no matter how many regular season MVPs he gets.

I suspect Giannis will give it one more go with that core then bounce to Miami or some other big market team(Lakers? gulp)

To say Giannis is the 9th best player though is a stretch. He isn't the best but definatelly top 5.

Bucks need to add more elite talent around him or Giannis needs to become a much better shooter if they want to take the next step.

Anyway, very Impressed by this Miami Heat squad. DID NOT expect them to be this good.

Guys like Bam + Herro stepping up + excellent 3 & D role players + savage leader in Jimmy + Dragic finding his mojo at the right time. Crazy run for them. Boston is who they are until they add elite talent. Kemba has ALWAYS been a liability on D and they keep picking on him. As good as Tatum/Brown are they still have to take another step in their games IMO. They can do it but aren't ready yet.

[ecuhus1981]

You have to question the scouting around the league when Duncan Robinson goes undrafted in 2018 compared to a lot of the players who were drafted ahead of him. We took Musa, and there's no way in hell that anyone would say that Musa is better than Robinson. ugh.

Point taken, though no scout should lose sleep over missing Robinson.

He was a pretty ordinary college player, not a star or a key role player on a star-studded contender. He was a special shooter, but in a small role, and his 3PT% actually went down every year. He wouldn't have even predicted this level of success, he's said it himself in interviews.

The right situation and the right system have catapulted him. He's fun to watch, but he's not going to thrive to this degree in every environment.

That's one reason I think that roster flexibility can be as valuable as non-lottery picks these days. The prospects you draft in the 20's and 30's are generally an higher caliber than undrafted dudes, obviously. BUT, you commit not only a multi-year contract to that guy, you commit a roster spot unless you actively develop your G league affiliate. With free agent pickups, they may have plied their trade overseas, or bounced around, but they're a hungrier breed. Also, your investment is a minimum, non-guaranteed contract, and you can churn through them as often as you like until you find the right system and talent fit.

This is what Miami does. They find the Robinsons, the Nunns and the Joneses, because they sifted through a bunch of other dudes you've never seen, on a constant stream of 10-day contracts.

[gigantes]

I'm still kind of shaking my head over last night's game. Just... for the Celts to be that careless with the ball, particularly in the 4th quarter with the season more or less on the line. To be that lackadaisical. I get that Hayward is arguably still rusty, but it was more than just him.

Also, seems like maybe-possibly they still defer a little too much when they need a little more decisive decision-making. So yeah, Kyrie had a poor final playoff series last season, but I wonder if overall he wasn't still exactly what they needed in terms of a lead guy taking charge.

When some of last season's Celts admitted that they had a problem with selfishness, maybe they were also talking about this kind of thing, right between the lines.

...This is what Miami does. They find the Robinsons, the Nunns and the Joneses, because they sifted through a bunch of other dudes you've never seen, on a constant stream of 10-day contracts.

Interesting stuff, and I think it was Marks (or maybe another GM or ND writer) who said a couple months ago that the days of certain teams (and not others) knowing about various undrafted players is effectively over. That makes sense to me, given how many Euros and undrafteds have shined the past decade or two, combined with the growth of better tracking tools, networking and larger scouting departments. Making global player awareness much more of a priority than it used to be not so long ago.

So I guess it moreso comes down to their strategy & philosophy over how to parse the data that separates teams these days.

[MrDollarBills]

Playoffs is where legends are made.

I remember even a young Lebron carried that crappy Cavs squad to a final vs. the Spurs.

AD has always been top 5 talent wise, but since he never made the playoffs in Nola people called him soft/trash/etc

Giannis is in somewhat similar situation. Giannis is definately one of the best players in the league but he is UNPROVEN in the playoffs. Until he wins he can't be considered the best player in the league no matter how many regular season MVPs he gets.

I suspect Giannis will give it one more go with that core then bounce to Miami or some other big market team(Lakers? gulp)

To say Giannis is the 9th best player though is a stretch. He isn't the best but definatelly top 5.

Bucks need to add more elite talent around him or Giannis needs to become a much better shooter if they want to take the next step.

Anyway, very Impressed by this Miami Heat squad. DID NOT expect them to be this good.

Guys like Bam + Herro stepping up + excellent 3 & D role players + savage leader in Jimmy + Dragic finding his mojo at the right time. Crazy run for them. Boston is who they are until they add elite talent. Kemba has ALWAYS been a liability on D and they keep picking on him. As good as Tatum/Brown are they still have to take another step in their games IMO. They can do it but aren't ready yet.

If the Heat get to the finals, you have to consider them the premiere FA destination. I think they have space to sign a max player if i recall.

That being said I don't know how Giannis would fit there when they have Bam.

We need to look at Miami and realize that we need defense on the wing like they do. We will have plenty of shooting and elite scoring options. we need dogs on the wing.

[MrDollarBills]

This is what Miami does. They find the Robinsons, the Nunns and the Joneses, because they sifted through a bunch of other dudes you've never seen, on a constant stream of 10-day contracts.

I mean technically we do the same thing too and we probably will need to keep doing it since we won't have cap space outside of the exceptions.

Overall, I'm pleased with how Marks has been able to find talent. Chiozza and TLC are definitely keepers on next year's roster, especially when they will be flanked by a loaded roster to cover up their flaws (which is also why I keep preaching that we should be patient with Taurean Prince).

[MrDollarBills]

I'm still kind of shaking my head over last night's game. Just... for the Celts to be that careless with the ball, particularly in the 4th quarter with the season more or less on the line. To be that lackadaisical. I get that Hayward is arguably still rusty, but it was more than just him.

Also, seems like maybe-possibly they still defer a little too much when they need a little more decisive decision-making. So yeah, Kyrie had a poor final playoff series last season, but I wonder if overall he wasn't still exactly what they needed in terms of a lead guy taking charge.

When some of last season's Celts admitted that they had a problem with selfishness, maybe they were also talking about this kind of thing, right between the lines.

Tatum is an excellent player, but he needs to learn how to make others around him better on a consistent basis.

They are done for though. Miami is clearly the better team at both ends, and Bam and Butler have been the best players on the floor for both teams.

[Papi_swav]

Yea this series is over, i don't see Boston coming back. GUUUUAAAARRAANNTTEEEEEEEE ! as Barkley would say. They had a good run though. Tatum is great but he isn't ready for the big stage yet, maybe next year or 2.

Hats off to Miami, those dudes go hard . It's not going to be a walk in the park for us next year, Miami leaves it all on the floor so our guys need to do the same. We need them wing defenders.

[gigantes]

Tatum is an excellent player, but he needs to learn how to make others around him better on a consistent basis.

They are done for though. Miami is clearly the better team at both ends, and Bam and Butler have been the best players on the floor for both teams.

I really liked this earlier article about Bam: (did you see it?)

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/28678382/bam-adebayo-fiercest-best-nba-player-know

I was only loosely familiar with him before this series, but I love what I'm seeing, and am really impressed by his drive and passion as laid out in the article. Talk about a natural fit with Butler and Pat Riley.

[MrDollarBills]

Tatum is an excellent player, but he needs to learn how to make others around him better on a consistent basis.

They are done for though. Miami is clearly the better team at both ends, and Bam and Butler have been the best players on the floor for both teams.

I really liked this earlier article about Bam: (did you see it?)

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/28678382/bam-adebayo-fiercest-best-nba-player-know

I was only loosely familiar with him before this series, but I love what I'm seeing, and am really impressed by his drive and passion as laid out in the article. Talk about a natural fit with Butler and Pat Riley.

Yeah, i wish we could take a big of that dog Bam has in him and inject it into Jarrett Allen.

[Paradise]

Watching this Boston team struggling against Miami is making me extremely excited for the type of run we will have next season. It’s ours for the taking.

[GTR11]

Yea this series is over, i don't see Boston coming back. GUUUUAAAARRAANNTTEEEEEEEE ! as Barkley would say. They had a good run though. Tatum is great but he isn't ready for the big stage yet, maybe next year or 2.

Hats off to Miami, those dudes go hard . It's not going to be a walk in the park for us next year, Miami leaves it all on the floor so our guys need to do the same. We need them wing defenders.

. We need GT, hot takes hot takes

[GTR11]

Bam's injury might make or break this series.

[Papi_swav]

Yea this series is over, i don't see Boston coming back. GUUUUAAAARRAANNTTEEEEEEEE ! as Barkley would say. They had a good run though. Tatum is great but he isn't ready for the big stage yet, maybe next year or 2.

Hats off to Miami, those dudes go hard . It's not going to be a walk in the park for us next year, Miami leaves it all on the floor so our guys need to do the same. We need them wing defenders.

. We need GT, hot takes hot takes

how is it a hot take? If Boston comes back and win then that would be a hot take. It's a prediction. Heat didn't win the series today but they can in 2 days, and I predict they will. I don't know what you're talking about hot takes.

[Papi_swav]

This is definitely Lebron year. I've never been a fan of Lebron but I kind of want him to win this year, this might actually be his last after all. He shot lights out today

[GTR11]

Yea this series is over, i don't see Boston coming back. GUUUUAAAARRAANNTTEEEEEEEE ! as Barkley would say. They had a good run though. Tatum is great but he isn't ready for the big stage yet, maybe next year or 2.

Hats off to Miami, those dudes go hard . It's not going to be a walk in the park for us next year, Miami leaves it all on the floor so our guys need to do the same. We need them wing defenders.

. We need GT, hot takes hot takes

how is it a hot take? If Boston comes back and win then that would be a hot take. It's a prediction. Heat didn't win the series today but they can in 2 days, and I predict they will. I don't know what you're talking about hot takes.

Oh my bad I thought you were talking about last night's game. I'm pulling for them too, F them Saltics.