2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[eminence]

Sounds like I may wind up lower on AD than most voters. I really didn't think his RS was anything special at all (fringe top 10 imo), and while he's certainly risen past some of the other fringe guys (Gobert/Paul/Lillard) I don't think he's realistically a contender for #1 or #2 unless LeBron absolutely collapses and AD leads the Lakers to a title.

[E-Balla]

As for the ranking this year is so hard to rank.


Like you swap AD and Giannis both do a lot worse in their different roles. So who’s really better? ADs clearly better in the playoffs but Giannis can lead a team a lot better than AD, I think.
Is Davis even better than Lebron? Maybe. Where does kawhi rank? Giannis? Luka might actually be the best player in the league, he may also be 5th. I actually thought luka was the best player in the clips series and watching kawhi vs the nuggets that has solidified my opinion. It’s a crazy year to rank players.


Also in regard to Kawhi, did he get slightly exposed against the nuggets team? Or is he still the best player in the league an it was mainly a durability issue? Kind of looked like durability to me but hard to say.

At the very least I think it showed his leadership abilities are on the very low end of the scale because none of that clippers team looked ready or fit enough once the season resumed and their attitude and complacency was a huge issue.

Indeed. Very tough year that could get a lot tougher still. Imagine a scenario where the Heat win the title with Goran Dragic or Tyler Herro as Finals MVP, you confident in how you'd make sense of these things? I'm not.

The AD vs Giannis question is outstanding and I'll double down and ask: If the Lakers win the title with AD continuing to play as he has been, is he higher on the GOAT list than Giannis with his 2 MVPs? I mean, I don't think it's random that took his draft team further than AD did with his, but I have to imagine I'll have more confidence in AD's ability to be a star on a champion after I've seen him actually be a star on a champion.

I don't want to commit to a ranking right now because I don't want to feel chained to it, but I'll say that LeBron/AD are going to have have strong cases for 1/2 or 2/1 if the win the title.

Other questions:

Is Davis better than LeBron? He might be on-court, but off-court-wise LeBron's effect is going to count for a lot for me. If on-court is even debatable, I expect I'll side with LeBron.

Kawhi exposed by Nuggets? Definitely to some degree. Man defender who seems completely flummoxed by a genius team-oriented opponent.

Kawhi still best player? I think Kawhi's limitations got exposed quite hard by Doc. You're talking about an particularly individually-mind player on both sides of the ball who is not going to fill in the gaps for you. He can do certain things really, really well, your job as coach is to fill in everything else around him. And granted that's harder to do after you mortgage all your best assets to acquire a second star who isn't a great fit with Kawhi in order to get Kawhi.

I think it makes sense to look at the Raptors' performance this season with Nick Nurse at the helm and really ask if you think Kawhi gets past the Bucks if he doesn't have a supporting cast and coaching edge. Ditto for the Warriors with the added thing of them being crippled with injury.

As I say that, I'll say two rather contradictory things: 1) I do think Kawhi has proven himself more than Giannis in the playoffs and would tend to rank Kawhi higher, but 2) I really think I'm going to end up voting Giannis ahead of Kawhi. Giannis had by far the better regular season, and Kawhi didn't carry his team any further than Giannis did.

Luka. I think it's likely Luka will miss my Top 5 POY but win my #1 OPOY vote. That's weird and speaks to how close things are stacking up.

The last Pelicans first round pick before Zion was Anthony Davis. So it's not random, it's because one team was well built and the other was terribly put together.

[eminence]

The last Pelicans first round pick before Zion was Anthony Davis. So it's not random, it's because one team was well built and the other was terribly put together.

Buddy, though they traded him pretty quickly for Boogie.

[GSP]

Final list would be

Bron
Ad
Harden
Jokic

in order

Leaning Kawhi over Giannis for 5th but can see an argument either way

[Doctor MJ]

As for the ranking this year is so hard to rank.


Like you swap AD and Giannis both do a lot worse in their different roles. So who’s really better? ADs clearly better in the playoffs but Giannis can lead a team a lot better than AD, I think.
Is Davis even better than Lebron? Maybe. Where does kawhi rank? Giannis? Luka might actually be the best player in the league, he may also be 5th. I actually thought luka was the best player in the clips series and watching kawhi vs the nuggets that has solidified my opinion. It’s a crazy year to rank players.


Also in regard to Kawhi, did he get slightly exposed against the nuggets team? Or is he still the best player in the league an it was mainly a durability issue? Kind of looked like durability to me but hard to say.

At the very least I think it showed his leadership abilities are on the very low end of the scale because none of that clippers team looked ready or fit enough once the season resumed and their attitude and complacency was a huge issue.

Indeed. Very tough year that could get a lot tougher still. Imagine a scenario where the Heat win the title with Goran Dragic or Tyler Herro as Finals MVP, you confident in how you'd make sense of these things? I'm not.

The AD vs Giannis question is outstanding and I'll double down and ask: If the Lakers win the title with AD continuing to play as he has been, is he higher on the GOAT list than Giannis with his 2 MVPs? I mean, I don't think it's random that took his draft team further than AD did with his, but I have to imagine I'll have more confidence in AD's ability to be a star on a champion after I've seen him actually be a star on a champion.

I don't want to commit to a ranking right now because I don't want to feel chained to it, but I'll say that LeBron/AD are going to have have strong cases for 1/2 or 2/1 if the win the title.

Other questions:

Is Davis better than LeBron? He might be on-court, but off-court-wise LeBron's effect is going to count for a lot for me. If on-court is even debatable, I expect I'll side with LeBron.

Kawhi exposed by Nuggets? Definitely to some degree. Man defender who seems completely flummoxed by a genius team-oriented opponent.

Kawhi still best player? I think Kawhi's limitations got exposed quite hard by Doc. You're talking about an particularly individually-mind player on both sides of the ball who is not going to fill in the gaps for you. He can do certain things really, really well, your job as coach is to fill in everything else around him. And granted that's harder to do after you mortgage all your best assets to acquire a second star who isn't a great fit with Kawhi in order to get Kawhi.

I think it makes sense to look at the Raptors' performance this season with Nick Nurse at the helm and really ask if you think Kawhi gets past the Bucks if he doesn't have a supporting cast and coaching edge. Ditto for the Warriors with the added thing of them being crippled with injury.

As I say that, I'll say two rather contradictory things: 1) I do think Kawhi has proven himself more than Giannis in the playoffs and would tend to rank Kawhi higher, but 2) I really think I'm going to end up voting Giannis ahead of Kawhi. Giannis had by far the better regular season, and Kawhi didn't carry his team any further than Giannis did.

Luka. I think it's likely Luka will miss my Top 5 POY but win my #1 OPOY vote. That's weird and speaks to how close things are stacking up.

The last Pelicans first round pick before Zion was Anthony Davis. So it's not random, it's because one team was well built and the other was terribly put together.

Nah. When Point Giannis happened, it allowed new avenues of impact AD's never had. The argument for AD is that such strategies are fools gold not that he could do them as well.

Also, you do realize that the Bucks aren't exactly built out of guys they got with high draft picks and they let their best draft pick since Giannis leave in free agency preferring to overpay for an older player whose specialty is playoff anxiety, right?

[therealbig3]

Feel like I keep going back and forth on certain players, but now that the WCF are wrapped up, and there are no top 5 candidates left in the East as far as I'm concerned, I think I can kinda sorta lock in on a top 5 that should stay consistent, unless I see something out of nowhere with regards to AD vs LeBron in the Finals.

1. LeBron
2. AD
3. Jokic
4. Giannis
5. Harden

6. Kawhi
7. Luka

Kawhi missed too much time during the RS and didn't have a strong enough PS to compensate in order to put him over Harden, Luka looks great by the box score and by the eye test, but the impact metrics don't support him all that much so I can't give him the nod over Kawhi or Harden just yet.

Giannis obviously had a terrible playoffs, even before his injury, which is why he dropped to 4th. But it wasn't terrible enough to drop him below Harden, who also had his down moments in the PS where he looked extremely stoppable.

It turns out that Giannis drops from being the clear #1 during the RS to #4 when PS is taken into account not just because of a disappointing PS but because the top 3 were just that good. Giannis at 4 is more of a reward for LeBron/Davis/Jokic rather than a punishment for Giannis.

[therealbig3]

Sounds like I may wind up lower on AD than most voters. I really didn't think his RS was anything special at all (fringe top 10 imo), and while he's certainly risen past some of the other fringe guys (Gobert/Paul/Lillard) I don't think he's realistically a contender for #1 or #2 unless LeBron absolutely collapses and AD leads the Lakers to a title.

I agree with you that his RS wasn't overly impressive by superstar standards, but I think he hasn't just been a better version of himself in the playoffs...I think he's basically been a different player, in a good way. His offensive impact is pretty tangible now, while it felt like stat padding or empty numbers that didn't really help to drive a team offense during the RS. His off-ball synergy with LeBron has been huge, but he's also been fantastic as a self-creator in these playoffs, with a money mid range jumper.

Where I think his value has really shined though is as a defensive player. Gobert had issues throughout the Nuggets series, despite a great performance in game 7...Embiid had issues against the Celtics in a 4 game sweep...but Davis can't really be targeted like that. In a playoff situation, Davis has kind of come through as the least exploitable elite big man defender, and in fact, he gets better, because he can play in any scheme, can defend pretty much any player, and can recover in pretty much any situation. Now, as I say this, he wasn't that good in this series specifically, and that speaks to his inconsistency a bit, because I actually think LeBron outperformed him as a defensive player, especially with AD disappearing on the glass, which was a big part of Denver's win in game 3 imo. We do have to consider that he went up against Jokic, and wonder how much of his defensive struggles were because Jokic is just awesome? But overall, I think he emerged as the best defensive player in the league with his performance in these playoffs.

So given his defense, and the improvement in his offense, I think AD certainly made a jump that warrants top 3 consideration.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Final list would be

Bron
Ad
Harden
Jokic

in order

Leaning Kawhi over Giannis for 5th but can see an argument either way

May I ask what the case is for Kawhi over Giannis this season? (Not trying to be sarcastic or anything, genuinely curious)

[MyUniBroDavis]

Right. The whole thing about the pick & roll is that it gives the offense options. When you have a 1) as good of a passer as has ever existed who is also 2) about as good as anyone in history at hitting any kind of shot and 3) as good a decision maker as has ever played basketball, and 4) the roll partner is a physical freak and 5) everyone else on the floor is spaced and can hit from range, you are always going to have options.

You can do things to mitigate by picking the proper poisons, but this isn't a thing where someone later came along with a perfect defensive counter that was beyond the imagination of people from literally just a decade ago.

To me the much bigger concerns for the Nash Suns in this era is how bad they'd be hurt with a smart offensive scheme making use of switches to hunt Nash. People back then thought that Nash was a far more negative defender than he ever was in practice, but it's entirely possible that now he'd actually be that problematic.

I mean the main thing was he was too small but quick footed right? One defenders a leak and theres that ooomph effect when all 5 guys are switchy but nash probably wasnt bad enoigh as a 1v1 defender for it to be as big of a deal as people were saying, esp if he can make up for it with smart team d which he was decent at

Hed be sucky defensively in certain matchups but over a season it wouldnt be too bad

No, I'd say 1v1 is exactly what Nash was weak at.

On the positive side, Nash was known for making very few mistakes on team defense - he played within the role he was tasked with on defense and part of that meant not gambling for steals (though he did make some heady steals during key moments).

Re: over a season. Oh over a season it would never be much of an issue. It's a question of how well he could be exploited in a playoff series if the offense systematically attacked him.

Super late but i more meant that even though it was his weakness i doubt he was bad enough to be exploited thaaat hard, compared to some other offensive hubs today.

[Timmyyy]

Sounds like I may wind up lower on AD than most voters. I really didn't think his RS was anything special at all (fringe top 10 imo), and while he's certainly risen past some of the other fringe guys (Gobert/Paul/Lillard) I don't think he's realistically a contender for #1 or #2 unless LeBron absolutely collapses and AD leads the Lakers to a title.

I'm in the same place as you on Davis. Some similarities to last years Kawhi (although I had Kawhi lower after the RS than Davies this year I guess). Coming from behind, because I don't see his RS as close to the top tier. The PO are making up a lot of ground, but they might not be enough for me to place him at the very top spots.

[yoyoboy]

For the people a lot lower on Davis, my question is why? What would he need to be doing to end up higher on your list? In these playoffs he’s scoring 29 ppg on 66% TS. He’s passing the ball pretty well and not turning it over much. Defensively he’s been great even if his impact was a bit neutered the past 2 series with the Rockets playing 5 out and pulling him away from the basket as well as having to stick on Jokic a lot and not being able to help at the rim as much as he’s shown in the past. But his ability to switch onto Murray out of the PnR was crucial in the series and he did as good of a job on Joker as you can hope for. And his off ball scoring gravity as a lob target, rim roller, and slasher across the lane just puts so much pressure on defenses. My only gripe with him really is his still weak creation out of double teams which obviously limits his ability to be a playmaker and which is why LeBron is the engine of the offense at the end of the day.

I get his +/- and the related variants of it weren’t that impressive in the regular season, but clearly the makeup of the team has something to do with that. LeBron’s been able to keep non-Davis lineups more than afloat without him because that’s just what LeBron does while Davis hasn’t fared as well in non-LeBron lineups without any playmakers to take advantage of his abilities, including non-playoff Rondo who was garbage in the regular season. But it would be foolish to think that if you took AD away from this team that there wouldn’t be a very significant drop off in success over the course of the whole season. Not only does Davis give LeBron the luxury to take breaks on offense here and there and let it work through AD, so he does have the energy to kill it with the bench units, but he also has significantly raised the defensive impact of guys like Rondo, Bradley, KCP, Green, and even LeBron to some degree. Per the scheme they can all play to their strengths and despite most of them lacking the ability to contain penetration they can focus on their strengths and be super aggressive with contesting shots and funneling their guys into the paint to meet Davis. Of course because AD shares a lot of court time with McGee and the backup is Dwight who has had a fantastic defensive season, the impact data won’t reflect Davis’ value accurately. But in these playoffs we’ve seen the plus/minus paint a much more positive picture of him that I think is much more accurate to how he’s played this season.

[eminence]

I don't seem to be as high on his D as many, their are folks in here hyping his D as best in the league, and I'm not sure he's even outperformed LeBron on that end, I was certainly more impressed with Gobert against Denver than I was by AD.

[SideshowBob]

I don't seem to be as high on his D as many, their are folks in here hyping his D as best in the league, and I'm not sure he's even outperformed LeBron on that end, I was certainly more impressed with Gobert against Denver than I was by AD.

Lebrln has looked equal or better on defense vs HOU and DEN. Davis looked better in round 1.

[eminence]

I don't seem to be as high on his D as many, their are folks in here hyping his D as best in the league, and I'm not sure he's even outperformed LeBron on that end, I was certainly more impressed with Gobert against Denver than I was by AD.

Lebrln has looked equal or better on defense vs HOU and DEN. Davis looked better in round 1.

Yeah, I generally agree with that.

[Doctor MJ]

Okay so after the conclusion of the West playoffs, I can give a ranking of how I see the guys from that side of the league at present:

West POY list:

1. LeBron James - obviously.

2. Anthony Davis - the only one who could top LeBron on this particular list, but also someone who I could imagine dropping. To me AD was not a clear cut Top 5 during the RS, so him being raised this high is really contingent on me continuing to see him as literally more impressive than everybody else, which as of March was not the case.

3. Nikola Jokic - he was in a group with AD and the guys below after the RS. To me what he did deserves a place above them and I think based on being the best player in the Clipper series this should at least seem like an understandable choice even if you disagree. But I also want to say that it's important to understand the galvanizing effect he's had on all his teammates. They're now proactively cutting and passing even when he's on the bench, which is exactly what I'd argue you should expect a player like Jokic to do. I think Bill Walton had a similar effect on his teammates. This push toward actually making teammates approach the game in a more valuable manner is special and rare. Y'all know I'm a huge Nash guy and will point out that he had an effect on his teammates' effectiveness that was profound in a way you just don't get from the Chris Pauls of the world, but Nash is still in the same category of Paul in terms of not fundamentally changing what his teammates are. It's one thing to orchestrate play to make your teammates succeed and another thing to arrange context where your teammates learn to actually figure out for themselves how they can succeed.

As I say all of this, I acknowledge that there are flaws to Jokic's game and that his level of aggression is spotty. It's not any kind of clear cut thing that he deserves this spot over the guys below, but qualitatively, I think it's important to understand that the shape of his impact on his team is quite interesting.

4. Kawhi Leonard - I had Kawhi 3rd in MVP behind Giannis and LeBron. I understand the arguments for Harden in particular over him given Kawhi's skipped games, but the reality is that the Clippers had the better record by a good margin so they didn't need Kawhi more to top Harden's team, and the Clippers played like an actual elite team when Kawhi was out there in a way that we weren't seen for Harden on the Rockets. It's just clear to me at this point that this is the classic type of situation where people care way more about the warts a guy's (Kawhi's) regular season in the moment than they'll care about after the playoffs.

Of course in the end I tend to go with the guy I just think is better, and that's Kawhi.

Last note here: Jokic is clearly ahead of Kawhi because of what happened in their series. It's worth noting that style makes the fight and that it's possible that the Nuggets were just the absolute wrong match up for the Clippers and you have to ask, if that's the case, should we still rank Kawhi higher than Jokic?

My take on this is going to be inherently different from some because I factor in off-court stuff before I give a guy a "degree of difficulty" bonus. As in: The "but he has a weaker supporting cast" argument doesn't resonate with me when the player determined the supporting cast. There are aspects of what Kawhi (and Uncle Dennis) have done in the past few years that have left me essentially putting him in a category of "I'm not going to care about that if you keep winning, but if you don't, that's going to hurt my eval." And of course, Kawhi's not the only one...

5. James Harden - I have to be honest, I'm expecting Harden to get squeezed out of the Top 5 into the HM by Giannis, and that seems more correct to me than having him in the Top 5. Now, I know intellectually not to think in terms of "In order to be a real Top 5 player you gotta...". You're Top 5 if there aren't more than 4 guys who happen to rank above you.

But as a Harden fan, this whole year feels like a colossal failure to me. While I understand that even if Harden hadn't chased Paul out of town the Rockets probably get no further than the 2nd round anyway, the fact that the Rockets barely got past Paul and the Thunder and then got smashed in the next round with this bizarro experiment makes it really unlikely they're going to keep coming back with a positive attitude. While the Rockets may have been at the end of their time anyway given Chris Paul age and the problematic new owner, it feels like we're in the midst of a meltdown that really has nothing to do with either of those things.

And I look at all that and say: Yes, Harden's still an amazing player but dayum, is this year really an "accomplishment"?

In the end I'm really not sure I want to rank Harden ahead of the guys below, but my existing assessment for Harden as a player combined with the fact that they at least got to the 2nd round on Harden's back is holding him in place.

HM:

Chris Paul - First I want to bring this guy up. I mean, if OKC wins that series, any notion that Harden had a better year than Paul would just be myopic. Paul added to his legacy this year, Harden really didn't. But I do think Harden is the more capable player and his team in the end was more successful, so it's a bit absurd to rank Paul ahead.

Luka Doncic - Luka makes it a legit question of whether he deserves to be not just higher, but whether he should be a lot higher. While Luka was still playing, he was THE story of the season and is the brightest young star in the game. But he also missed time, his team was still pretty dang good without him, and you're still talking about a 7th seed who exited in the 1st round.

Luka dueled with Kawhi in the first round and I get the argument that some thought Luka was more impressive. I don't think Luka has done enough to make me more confident in him than Kawhi. Period. So that's a non-starter for me, and likely makes it so that Luka just can't get in my Top 5, but I can certainly see an argument for him over Harden or Paul.

Last note on Luka: Currently in the lead for my OPOY, and while it's weird for an OPOY to miss the Top 5 POY, I do really think Luka deserves more criticism of his defense than anyone else ahead of him.

Damian Lillard - What a badass. Another triumphant year leading a not-really-contender like a plucky underdog hero. Could see a case for him being a Top 5 guy, more comfortable with him here.

Secondary HM - guys unlikely to make my overall Top 10:

Rudy Gobert & Donovan Mitchell - Combined they have the story of an MVP candidate but as is what we have is a situation where it feels like we're in the middle of a changing of the guard that hasn't quite found a way to allow the team to truly step forward. Jazz fans have to be super-excited for Mitchell's future though, and the duo seemed to play together in the Bubble in a way that there may still be a future there for both.

Jamal Murray - the breakout player of the Bubble for me, and not just in a quantifiable way. I absolutely love the way he plays.

Devin Booker - worth at least a shoutout to the team with the best winning percentage in the Bubble ahead of whoever the champ ends up. Phoenix has an actually good reason to be hopeful with Monty Williams' team.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Sounds like I may wind up lower on AD than most voters. I really didn't think his RS was anything special at all (fringe top 10 imo), and while he's certainly risen past some of the other fringe guys (Gobert/Paul/Lillard) I don't think he's realistically a contender for #1 or #2 unless LeBron absolutely collapses and AD leads the Lakers to a title.

I agree with you that his RS wasn't overly impressive by superstar standards, but I think he hasn't just been a better version of himself in the playoffs...I think he's basically been a different player, in a good way. His offensive impact is pretty tangible now, while it felt like stat padding or empty numbers that didn't really help to drive a team offense during the RS. His off-ball synergy with LeBron has been huge, but he's also been fantastic as a self-creator in these playoffs, with a money mid range jumper.

Where I think his value has really shined though is as a defensive player. Gobert had issues throughout the Nuggets series, despite a great performance in game 7...Embiid had issues against the Celtics in a 4 game sweep...but Davis can't really be targeted like that. In a playoff situation, Davis has kind of come through as the least exploitable elite big man defender, and in fact, he gets better, because he can play in any scheme, can defend pretty much any player, and can recover in pretty much any situation. Now, as I say this, he wasn't that good in this series specifically, and that speaks to his inconsistency a bit, because I actually think LeBron outperformed him as a defensive player, especially with AD disappearing on the glass, which was a big part of Denver's win in game 3 imo. We do have to consider that he went up against Jokic, and wonder how much of his defensive struggles were because Jokic is just awesome? But overall, I think he emerged as the best defensive player in the league with his performance in these playoffs.

So given his defense, and the improvement in his offense, I think AD certainly made a jump that warrants top 3 consideration.

His rebounding was poor but it was mostly because he was guarding as a wing at the end and he did a pretty good job.

Id say that atm the top three is clearly lebron/davis/jokic, and its hard for me to seriously think jokic>davis when davis thoroughly outperformed him this series.

Contextually jokic wasnt really doing anything whenever the lakers actually went to lineups that we thought jokic would struggle with, (he averaged like 17-3 per 36 with dwight on the court), had foul trouble with those lineups that meant he was limited to 33 minutes a game, etc etc. even though defensively davis wasnt as good as he was against houstan or portland he was still solid in a different role defensively while jokic was pretty much what we know defensively, pretty attackable on mismatches not good at protecting the rim and with that added effect of being in foul trouble every game effecting his already low ability to defend the rim

Offensively id say Davis impressed me more. Jokic's passing was great but once the lakers went big it didnt hurt the lakers all to much, and a big chunk of his buckets and plays were vs mismatches in the post and off ball action. Almost all of his assists were off of this and wed usually try to force him to be a scorer unless the mismatxh was absurd, and obviously he did well. as much as people are going to say he made the offense possible, murrays ability to run the pick and roll and ability to hit ridicukous shots if someones not on him 24/7 was as important as jokic's short roll prowess imo in their pick and roll game. Not only that but i think alot of people assume jokic did great under difficult circumstances with the lakers big frontxourt but whenever the lakers went to their big front court with dwight and AD, jokic struggled. He did well against the small ball lineups mostly iirc. Im pretty sure the offensive rtg vs howard lineups with jokic and howard lineups without jokic was pretty ridiculous as well, and the def rtg sucked for both

On a game by game perspective, game 1 goes to AD, game 2 seems close at a glance and on first look but defintiely goes to AD once you analyze the context they made their plays in (if i recall jokic had 4 points and an assist outside of ez mismatches and offball), game 3 goes to jokic, 4 goes to AD, and 5 goes to AD because of jokic foul trouble

I didnt really think AD was too great at all in game 5 since that was a game he got a few easy buckets vs the other ones but he was creating all of his offense in games 1-4 despite some guys on the lakers really not knowing how to give it to him in the post. He was fully a perimeter guy at times as well. Ill also add that the large lineups that hamped jokic wouldnt have hampered ad because for the most part he cooked the big guys on him (especially jokic actually) and was doing most of his damage of midrange isoes iirc.

22-7-5 on 2.6 turnovers, 61.6TS for Jokic
31-6-2.5 on 2.2 turnovers, 67.1TS for Davis

With Davis for the most part taking tougher shots

Id say the playmaking underrates how good jokic was, his playmaking threat was strong but for a large part with how the lakers defended it made it jokic was able to score against mismatches without help arriving, but davis was scoring on his matchups they put on him better than jokic did against mismatches. Davis struggled passing a bit this series, probably more so that the stats suggest, but especially given jokic couldnt stay in the court at times because of constant foul trouble, its hard for me to say jokic had a better offensive series than Davis, and defensively one guy had a down series from DPOY level one had a bad series and was in foul trouble

Although i think some of his game 5 buckets were sefinately helped by bron, through games 1-4 he was really not benefitting from bron at all.

Jokic without murray vs LAL playoffs
12 points, 3 assists, 6 turnovers, 50TS, 16 minutes

Extending it to playoffs total
60 points, 15 assists, 12 turnovers, 53.6 TS, 80 minutes

Compare this to

Davis without Lebron vs Denver

46 points, 7 assists, 3 turnovers, 76.7TS, 52 minutes

Playoffs total

138 points, 18 assists, 13 turnovers, 67.6 TS 154 minutes

Low sample for jokic but you get the picture. Over the rs the drop in ts isnt nearly as drastic (60.5 to 58.5) but his scoring volume is about the same. His assist volume and thrnover volume both go up (23.8/9.5 per 36, 4.5 turnovers)

Davis is 32.3/3.2 assists and 3 turnovers per 36, 64TS

Also worth noting that over the course of the rs the offense with jokic on and no murray is 113.9 and davis on with no bron is 112.8. This sounds like a big point for jokic but id say the lakers - bron are worse than the nuggets - jokic, esp considering fit, coaching, and that davis has evolved to a different llayer for these playoffs

Playoffs teams offense is at 118.6 with davis on no bron, vs nuggets it was 135.6

Playoffs the nuggets offense is 98.3 with jokic no murray, vs lakers it was 88.9

Small samples but my main point is the murray + jokic combo has a synergy vs the davis + lebron is overwhelming talent

Lebron at number 1 obviously

[yoyoboy]

There's something to be said about LeBron being able to "rest" somewhat on Grant though, outside of crucial stretch when he would take the Murray assignment, while AD was largely tasked with Joker. It was definitely harder for him to roam on defense and help like LeBron was able to. And against Houston he was the only one the team trusted to guard Harden in single coverage. Every other Lakers defender was aided by the double team. Then as I mentioned against the Nuggets, Davis was able to switch onto Murray out of the PnR with Jokic which helped slow down that impossible to guard play. Davis is what makes so many of the Lakers' defensive schemes possible and makes the other guys' lives so much easier so they can save energy and not have to do more than they're comfortable with. In these playoffs, I'm definitely giving AD the not crazy significant but pretty clear edge on defense. Which is slightly offset by LeBron's offensive edge and why I have LBJ as the best performer in these playoffs and the leading POY candidate.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Okay so after the conclusion of the West playoffs, I can give a ranking of how I see the guys from that side of the league at present:

West POY list:

1. LeBron James - obviously.

2. Anthony Davis - the only one who could top LeBron on this particular list, but also someone who I could imagine dropping. To me AD was not a clear cut Top 5 during the RS, so him being raised this high is really contingent on me continuing to see him as literally more impressive than everybody else, which as of March was not the case.

3. Nikola Jokic - he was in a group with AD and the guys below after the RS. To me what he did deserves a place above them and I think based on being the best player in the Clipper series this should at least seem like an understandable choice even if you disagree. But I also want to say that it's important to understand the galvanizing effect he's had on all his teammates. They're now proactively cutting and passing even when he's on the bench, which is exactly what I'd argue you should expect a player like Jokic to do. I think Bill Walton had a similar effect on his teammates. This push toward actually making teammates approach the game in a more valuable manner is special and rare. Y'all know I'm a huge Nash guy and will point out that he had an effect on his teammates' effectiveness that was profound in a way you just don't get from the Chris Pauls of the world, but Nash is still in the same category of Paul in terms of not fundamentally changing what his teammates are. It's one thing to orchestrate play to make your teammates succeed and another thing to arrange context where your teammates learn to actually figure out for themselves how they can succeed.

As I say all of this, I acknowledge that there are flaws to Jokic's game and that his level of aggression is spotty. It's not any kind of clear cut thing that he deserves this spot over the guys below, but qualitatively, I think it's important to understand that the shape of his impact on his team is quite interesting.

4. Kawhi Leonard - I had Kawhi 3rd in MVP behind Giannis and LeBron. I understand the arguments for Harden in particular over him given Kawhi's skipped games, but the reality is that the Clippers had the better record by a good margin so they didn't need Kawhi more to top Harden's team, and the Clippers played like an actual elite team when Kawhi was out there in a way that we weren't seen for Harden on the Rockets. It's just clear to me at this point that this is the classic type of situation where people care way more about the warts a guy's (Kawhi's) regular season in the moment than they'll care about after the playoffs.

Of course in the end I tend to go with the guy I just think is better, and that's Kawhi.

Last note here: Jokic is clearly ahead of Kawhi because of what happened in their series. It's worth noting that style makes the fight and that it's possible that the Nuggets were just the absolute wrong match up for the Clippers and you have to ask, if that's the case, should we still rank Kawhi higher than Jokic?

My take on this is going to be inherently different from some because I factor in off-court stuff before I give a guy a "degree of difficulty" bonus. As in: The "but he has a weaker supporting cast" argument doesn't resonate with me when the player determined the supporting cast. There are aspects of what Kawhi (and Uncle Dennis) have done in the past few years that have left me essentially putting him in a category of "I'm not going to care about that if you keep winning, but if you don't, that's going to hurt my eval." And of course, Kawhi's not the only one...

5. James Harden - I have to be honest, I'm expecting Harden to get squeezed out of the Top 5 into the HM by Giannis, and that seems more correct to me than having him in the Top 5. Now, I know intellectually not to think in terms of "In order to be a real Top 5 player you gotta...". You're Top 5 if there aren't more than 4 guys who happen to rank above you.

But as a Harden fan, this whole year feels like a colossal failure to me. While I understand that even if Harden hadn't chased Paul out of town the Rockets probably get no further than the 2nd round anyway, the fact that the Rockets barely got past Paul and the Thunder and then got smashed in the next round with this bizarro experiment makes it really unlikely they're going to keep coming back with a positive attitude. While the Rockets may have been at the end of their time anyway given Chris Paul age and the problematic new owner, it feels like we're in the midst of a meltdown that really has nothing to do with either of those things.

And I look at all that and say: Yes, Harden's still an amazing player but dayum, is this year really an "accomplishment"?

In the end I'm really not sure I want to rank Harden ahead of the guys below, but my existing assessment for Harden as a player combined with the fact that they at least got to the 2nd round on Harden's back is holding him in place.

HM:

Chris Paul - First I want to bring this guy up. I mean, if OKC wins that series, any notion that Harden had a better year than Paul would just be myopic. Paul added to his legacy this year, Harden really didn't. But I do think Harden is the more capable player and his team in the end was more successful, so it's a bit absurd to rank Paul ahead.

Luka Doncic - Luka makes it a legit question of whether he deserves to be not just higher, but whether he should be a lot higher. While Luka was still playing, he was THE story of the season and is the brightest young star in the game. But he also missed time, his team was still pretty dang good without him, and you're still talking about a 7th seed who exited in the 1st round.

Luka dueled with Kawhi in the first round and I get the argument that some thought Luka was more impressive. I don't think Luka has done enough to make me more confident in him than Kawhi. Period. So that's a non-starter for me, and likely makes it so that Luka just can't get in my Top 5, but I can certainly see an argument for him over Harden or Paul.

Last note on Luka: Currently in the lead for my OPOY, and while it's weird for an OPOY to miss the Top 5 POY, I do really think Luka deserves more criticism of his defense than anyone else ahead of him.

Damian Lillard - What a badass. Another triumphant year leading a not-really-contender like a plucky underdog hero. Could see a case for him being a Top 5 guy, more comfortable with him here.

Secondary HM - guys unlikely to make my overall Top 10:

Rudy Gobert & Donovan Mitchell - Combined they have the story of an MVP candidate but as is what we have is a situation where it feels like we're in the middle of a changing of the guard that hasn't quite found a way to allow the team to truly step forward. Jazz fans have to be super-excited for Mitchell's future though, and the duo seemed to play together in the Bubble in a way that there may still be a future there for both.

Jamal Murray - the breakout player of the Bubble for me, and not just in a quantifiable way. I absolutely love the way he plays.

Devin Booker - worth at least a shoutout to the team with the best winning percentage in the Bubble ahead of whoever the champ ends up. Phoenix has an actually good reason to be hopeful with Monty Williams' team.

I feel giannis should at least get a mention though lol

[70sFan]

As I said in Game Footage thread, I've been watching 1990 Lakers games right now and I have to say that there are some overreactions with Davis defense. Hakeem in first two playoff games was on another planet compared to him. His combination of rim protection, man defense and quick hands made him a cheat code on that end. It's another story about his offense (where Olajuwon played surprisingly badly and struggled against Lakers pressure), but defensively I don't see any scenario when I'd prefer Davis over peak Hakeem.

[freethedevil]

Okay so after the conclusion of the West playoffs, I can give a ranking of how I see the guys from that side of the league at present:

West POY list:

1. LeBron James - obviously.

2. Anthony Davis - the only one who could top LeBron on this particular list, but also someone who I could imagine dropping. To me AD was not a clear cut Top 5 during the RS, so him being raised this high is really contingent on me continuing to see him as literally more impressive than everybody else, which as of March was not the case.

3. Nikola Jokic - he was in a group with AD and the guys below after the RS. To me what he did deserves a place above them and I think based on being the best player in the Clipper series this should at least seem like an understandable choice even if you disagree. But I also want to say that it's important to understand the galvanizing effect he's had on all his teammates. They're now proactively cutting and passing even when he's on the bench, which is exactly what I'd argue you should expect a player like Jokic to do. I think Bill Walton had a similar effect on his teammates. This push toward actually making teammates approach the game in a more valuable manner is special and rare. Y'all know I'm a huge Nash guy and will point out that he had an effect on his teammates' effectiveness that was profound in a way you just don't get from the Chris Pauls of the world, but Nash is still in the same category of Paul in terms of not fundamentally changing what his teammates are. It's one thing to orchestrate play to make your teammates succeed and another thing to arrange context where your teammates learn to actually figure out for themselves how they can succeed.

As I say all of this, I acknowledge that there are flaws to Jokic's game and that his level of aggression is spotty. It's not any kind of clear cut thing that he deserves this spot over the guys below, but qualitatively, I think it's important to understand that the shape of his impact on his team is quite interesting.

4. Kawhi Leonard - I had Kawhi 3rd in MVP behind Giannis and LeBron. I understand the arguments for Harden in particular over him given Kawhi's skipped games, but the reality is that the Clippers had the better record by a good margin so they didn't need Kawhi more to top Harden's team, and the Clippers played like an actual elite team when Kawhi was out there in a way that we weren't seen for Harden on the Rockets. It's just clear to me at this point that this is the classic type of situation where people care way more about the warts a guy's (Kawhi's) regular season in the moment than they'll care about after the playoffs.

Of course in the end I tend to go with the guy I just think is better, and that's Kawhi.

Last note here: Jokic is clearly ahead of Kawhi because of what happened in their series. It's worth noting that style makes the fight and that it's possible that the Nuggets were just the absolute wrong match up for the Clippers and you have to ask, if that's the case, should we still rank Kawhi higher than Jokic?

My take on this is going to be inherently different from some because I factor in off-court stuff before I give a guy a "degree of difficulty" bonus. As in: The "but he has a weaker supporting cast" argument doesn't resonate with me when the player determined the supporting cast. There are aspects of what Kawhi (and Uncle Dennis) have done in the past few years that have left me essentially putting him in a category of "I'm not going to care about that if you keep winning, but if you don't, that's going to hurt my eval." And of course, Kawhi's not the only one...

5. James Harden - I have to be honest, I'm expecting Harden to get squeezed out of the Top 5 into the HM by Giannis, and that seems more correct to me than having him in the Top 5. Now, I know intellectually not to think in terms of "In order to be a real Top 5 player you gotta...". You're Top 5 if there aren't more than 4 guys who happen to rank above you.

But as a Harden fan, this whole year feels like a colossal failure to me. While I understand that even if Harden hadn't chased Paul out of town the Rockets probably get no further than the 2nd round anyway, the fact that the Rockets barely got past Paul and the Thunder and then got smashed in the next round with this bizarro experiment makes it really unlikely they're going to keep coming back with a positive attitude. While the Rockets may have been at the end of their time anyway given Chris Paul age and the problematic new owner, it feels like we're in the midst of a meltdown that really has nothing to do with either of those things.

And I look at all that and say: Yes, Harden's still an amazing player but dayum, is this year really an "accomplishment"?

In the end I'm really not sure I want to rank Harden ahead of the guys below, but my existing assessment for Harden as a player combined with the fact that they at least got to the 2nd round on Harden's back is holding him in place.

HM:

Chris Paul - First I want to bring this guy up. I mean, if OKC wins that series, any notion that Harden had a better year than Paul would just be myopic. Paul added to his legacy this year, Harden really didn't. But I do think Harden is the more capable player and his team in the end was more successful, so it's a bit absurd to rank Paul ahead.

Luka Doncic - Luka makes it a legit question of whether he deserves to be not just higher, but whether he should be a lot higher. While Luka was still playing, he was THE story of the season and is the brightest young star in the game. But he also missed time, his team was still pretty dang good without him, and you're still talking about a 7th seed who exited in the 1st round.

Luka dueled with Kawhi in the first round and I get the argument that some thought Luka was more impressive. I don't think Luka has done enough to make me more confident in him than Kawhi. Period. So that's a non-starter for me, and likely makes it so that Luka just can't get in my Top 5, but I can certainly see an argument for him over Harden or Paul.

Last note on Luka: Currently in the lead for my OPOY, and while it's weird for an OPOY to miss the Top 5 POY, I do really think Luka deserves more criticism of his defense than anyone else ahead of him.

Damian Lillard - What a badass. Another triumphant year leading a not-really-contender like a plucky underdog hero. Could see a case for him being a Top 5 guy, more comfortable with him here.

Secondary HM - guys unlikely to make my overall Top 10:

Rudy Gobert & Donovan Mitchell - Combined they have the story of an MVP candidate but as is what we have is a situation where it feels like we're in the middle of a changing of the guard that hasn't quite found a way to allow the team to truly step forward. Jazz fans have to be super-excited for Mitchell's future though, and the duo seemed to play together in the Bubble in a way that there may still be a future there for both.

Jamal Murray - the breakout player of the Bubble for me, and not just in a quantifiable way. I absolutely love the way he plays.

Devin Booker - worth at least a shoutout to the team with the best winning percentage in the Bubble ahead of whoever the champ ends up. Phoenix has an actually good reason to be hopeful with Monty Williams' team.

Honestly, given harden played the best of anyone not named murray vs the lakers i think he shoudl clearly be above kawhi. Harden has been much better over the course of the last two regular seasons, and his performance against the lakers is or eimpressive than anything kawhi managed this postseason. Don't really see much rationale in putting kawhi above him.

Also don't think you can really hold it against harden for pushing for a westbrook trade, when kawhi nasically forced the clippers to forfiet any shot at getting a rim prtoector or playmaker by makign them trade for pg.


I don't really see how kawhi can be ranked over harden using consistent rationale. Kawhi wasn't as good when it mattered, and he was arguably worse off the court.