The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 7)

[Heej]

Gianni to GSW is probably exactly the motivation needed to drive LeBron to another 16>17>18 improvement curve.

Honestly Bob part of me feels like LeBron has so much PTSD from the lost years of the late 2010s that he has enough maniacal motivation left in the tank until Bronny gets here. I can't imagine him being even slightly complacent if they win tbh. This dude's just gonna make up ghosts in his head about the burgeoning young talent coming for him and how he can't waste anymore years dicking around. He'll try to ride AD till the wheels come off and then go mentor Bronny imo lol

[Baski]

Lmao...don't let Denver trick y'all. I'm hype. Ima eat that ASS this series. Over in 5 games. BOOK IT. We gettin this 'chip for KOBE!

I told y’all motherlovers this would be over in 5 right?! Next series will be in 6......Lakers gonna be the champs ONCE AGAIN!

Congratulations man! Didn't have that much confidence in you but you and Bron are putting in work this POs and I've eaten a buncha crow. Win that 1st title and gimme some crow dessert please.










But the bigger takeaway from this is that AD is actually on RealGM. Holy ****!!!

[homecourtloss]

LeBron in closeout games these playoffs:

34.3/12.3/9 on 61.3% FG, 71.8% TS, +51

He’s +385 in the 48 closeout games he’s played

He’s +193 in clinching conference finals games (10 games)

What’s interesting is that closeouts are typically the hardest, and he’s had small +/- margins in most closeout games until this year.

2006:
+1 in a win over Washington
-2 in a loss to Detroit
-16 in a loss to Detroit

2007:
+12 in a win over Washington
-15 in a loss to New Jersey
+26 in a win over New Jersey
+13 in a win over Detroit

2008:
-3 in a loss to Washington
+26 in a win over Washington
+0 in a loss to Boston

2009:
+10 in a win over Detroit
+1 in a win over Atlanta

2010:
+1 in a win over Atlanta

2011:
-4 in a loss to Philadelphia
+5 in a win over Philadelphia
+14 in a win over Boston
+8 in a win over Chicago

2012:
-7 in a loss to New York
+6 in a win over New York
+16 in a win over Indiana
+13 in a win over Boston
+20 in a win over Oklahoma City

2013:
+16 in a win over Milwaukee
+4 in a win over Chicago
-22 in a loss to Indiana
+21 in a win over Indiana
+8 in a win over San Antonio

2014:
+12 in a win over Charlotte
+4 in a win over Brooklyn
+1 in a loss to Indiana
+27 in a win over Indiana

2015:
+7 in a win over Boston
+20 in a win over Chicago
+20 in a win over Atlanta

2016:
+5 in a win over Detroit
+2 in a win over Atlanta
+22 in a win over Toronto
+4 in a win over Golden State

2017:
+4 in a win over Indiana
+7 in a win over Toronto
+36 in a win over Boston

2018:
-24 in a loss to Indiana
-2 in a win over Indiana
+28 in a win over Toronto
+8 in a win over Boston

2020:
+20 in a win over Portland
+19 in a win over Houston
+12 in a win over Denver

[yoyoboy]

It would be delicious to see LeBron and AD be a perennial terror to the Warriors every year in the playoffs as payback for the bad breaks the last few years. The Giannis talks are frightening though. If any team can pull that off it's the Warriors. Curry is a supremely underrated recruiter. There's something about him that guys want to play WITH as opposed to LeBron whom guys want to play FOR. Him and Giannis would instantly be the GOAT duo and GOAT PNR pairing imo. The synergy is just too insane because even if you switch it you can't really build a wall against Giannis when Klay and Steph are on the floor.

That being said, as someone who just knows Federer is the GOAT but doesn't know much about tennis other than that, the discussions of the nuances of what's made him dominate for so long is fascinating to read. So more of that please cuz imo we've got plenty of time before LeBron plays again and I'm sure there's a lot of parallels you can draw between the 2 greats.

No way Milwaukee even thinks about taking back that Wiggins contract when giving up a two time MVP, so I think the talks start at Draymond, #2 pick, 2021 Timberwolves 1st (top 3 protected), and Warriors 2022 1st. Is that really enough for the Bucks? Not sure they even want Green given that they're not going to be contending anymore without Giannis, and he'll turn 31 next year. I don't know how well his game will age either. That IQ and instincts will help, but his quickness and agility are so crucial as an undersized big who's limited as a scorer. The Bucks aren't attracting FA talent either so it would be a while before they're back to making real noise. They'd want younger talent.

I have no doubt that Giannis would be very interested in joining with Curry given the synergy that pair would have, the marketing opportunities for Giannis in Golden State, and the fact that he and Steph seem to like each other. But GS can't sign him next summer unless they somehow unload BOTH of Draymond and Wiggins while taking virtually no salary back. And so they'd have to trade for him, and I can't imagine another team wouldn't have a more appealing package to offer. Especially given that the Bucks aren't going to be exactly eager to give their franchise player to rejuvenate the dynasty team of recent years.

[Baski]

Jesus Christ there are Hall of Famers drafted 4-7 years after Lebron who likely will never be better than him till they retire. Insane

Reminds me of Federer. Sure there were years where Djokovic/Nadal were better... But when he was healthy, up to like a year and a half ago, he's always been better when you take into account all surfaces

As a Federer homer I love hearing you say that, but I was actually thinking of 4 players from tennis:

Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, and Serena.

We've gone through generations of players who rose after them and then peaked and died like a stinging bee.

I think that whenever we notice something like this within a sport, there's something that really needs to be analyzed that goes beyond the talent and character of the athlete in question.

Not to take anything away from any of those athletes who have surfed the wave of a new generation with adroit mastery though, and I'll note that LeBron stands out like this as a lone outlier at present. We'll have to see if he's a physical anomaly or if this is just the most significant harbinger of a new normal for the sport for players who have the particular talents that age really well.

I think it's pretty obvious at this point that it's the former.
Everyone else is breaking down or declining around him and he seems to really only be suffering from a loss in stamina. 35 year-olds simply should not be moving the way he moves on a nightly basis.


I think his treatment of his body (and his unique mind to a lesser extent) has allowed him to squeeze out 1-3 more elite athletic years than would've been possible in the past and he deserves a lot of credit for that. But by now we should know he's literally "built different".

[magicman1978]

I wonder how much the layoff helped him this year. LeBron probably puts in the most work of anyone to stay in top shape so I'd never bet against him - but a 4 month break was probably a godsend for him given how much effort he was expending this year defensively. I wonder what next year will bring.

[SideshowBob]

Gianni to GSW is probably exactly the motivation needed to drive LeBron to another 16>17>18 improvement curve.

Honestly Bob part of me feels like LeBron has so much PTSD from the lost years of the late 2010s that he has enough maniacal motivation left in the tank until Bronny gets here. I can't imagine him being even slightly complacent if they win tbh. This dude's just gonna make up ghosts in his head about the burgeoning young talent coming for him and how he can't waste anymore years dicking around. He'll try to ride AD till the wheels come off and then go mentor Bronny imo lol

I think he still wants a few things against Jordan as well. 6/7 rings no doubt, but that's tough and long term (quickest way would be a 4-peat which is near impossible ).

What is more realistically achievable is a 70 win team and another MVP (and these would likely happen together). Keys to that would be recruiting and shooting.

Layer up on some vets/3&D guys to grind out a long season with better spacing.
Get his shot to 17/18 levels again.

Spacing + his own shooting makes his offensive grind easier for the RS. Easier offense means more defensive effort. That's the key to getting up to a +11-12 RS SRS level team which is how you pull out the 70 wins. This would almost assuredly coincide with an MVP.

If they pull off a title this year, I'm pretty certain this is what he's going to go for. I think he tried this in 2017 as well, but that roster was just not built defensively for that kind of season. LA is, and they've got the coaching chops behind em as well.

[Doctor MJ]

Reminds me of Federer. Sure there were years where Djokovic/Nadal were better... But when he was healthy, up to like a year and a half ago, he's always been better when you take into account all surfaces

As a Federer homer I love hearing you say that, but I was actually thinking of 4 players from tennis:

Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, and Serena.

We've gone through generations of players who rose after them and then peaked and died like a stinging bee.

I think that whenever we notice something like this within a sport, there's something that really needs to be analyzed that goes beyond the talent and character of the athlete in question.

Not to take anything away from any of those athletes who have surfed the wave of a new generation with adroit mastery though, and I'll note that LeBron stands out like this as a lone outlier at present. We'll have to see if he's a physical anomaly or if this is just the most significant harbinger of a new normal for the sport for players who have the particular talents that age really well.

I think it's pretty obvious at this point that it's the former.
Everyone else is breaking down or declining around him and he seems to really only be suffering from a loss in stamina. 35 year-olds simply should not be moving the way he moves on a nightly basis.


I think his treatment of his body (and his unique mind to a lesser extent) has allowed him to squeeze out 1-3 more elite athletic years than would've been possible in the past and he deserves a lot of credit for that. But by now we should know he's literally "built different".

Well right, but who is this "everybody else"?

Wade? We knew his body likely wouldn't hold up because of the way he played.
Melo? Not smart enough to learn evergreen skills to make up for physical short-comings.
Bosh? Freak health condition.
Howard? See Melo and multiply by farts.

Meanwhile Chris Paul, aka "the smart one"? Holding up pretty damn well. He's degraded further than LeBron specifically because at his size explosiveness is more important.

It's certainly no question that LeBron's longevity in general is incredibly impressive, it's really just a question of whether we can explain it with an answer other than "He's just built more solidly than everybody else."

[Heej]

Gianni to GSW is probably exactly the motivation needed to drive LeBron to another 16>17>18 improvement curve.

Honestly Bob part of me feels like LeBron has so much PTSD from the lost years of the late 2010s that he has enough maniacal motivation left in the tank until Bronny gets here. I can't imagine him being even slightly complacent if they win tbh. This dude's just gonna make up ghosts in his head about the burgeoning young talent coming for him and how he can't waste anymore years dicking around. He'll try to ride AD till the wheels come off and then go mentor Bronny imo lol

I think he still wants a few things against Jordan as well. 6/7 rings no doubt, but that's tough and long term (quickest way would be a 4-peat which is near impossible ).

What is more realistically achievable is a 70 win team and another MVP (and these would likely happen together). Keys to that would be recruiting and shooting.

Layer up on some vets/3&D guys to grind out a long season with better spacing.
Get his shot to 17/18 levels again.

Spacing + his own shooting makes his offensive grind easier for the RS. Easier offense means more defensive effort. That's the key to getting up to a +11-12 RS SRS level team which is how you pull out the 70 wins. This would almost assuredly coincide with an MVP.

If they pull off a title this year, I'm pretty certain this is what he's going to go for. I think he tried this in 2017 as well, but that roster was just not built defensively for that kind of season. LA is, and they've got the coaching chops behind em as well.

I'm with you on that. Finally checking off that 70 win marker seems like a huge thing on his bucket list. You could tell Bron was gunning for it last year right up until that random 4 game slump. I wonder if he's gonna have another year left being the alpha over AD cuz it's already clear in these playoffs that AD is the more consistent one imo. I suppose they could give him a lifetime achievement MVP like Kobe

Count me as one of those guys who still believes in a threepeat . There's a part of me that wonders if he'll ever take a discount to bring guys in. But that seems antithetical to everything LeBron stands for as an agent for player empowerment.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Gianni to GSW is probably exactly the motivation needed to drive LeBron to another 16>17>18 improvement curve.

Honestly Bob part of me feels like LeBron has so much PTSD from the lost years of the late 2010s that he has enough maniacal motivation left in the tank until Bronny gets here. I can't imagine him being even slightly complacent if they win tbh. This dude's just gonna make up ghosts in his head about the burgeoning young talent coming for him and how he can't waste anymore years dicking around. He'll try to ride AD till the wheels come off and then go mentor Bronny imo lol

I think he still wants a few things against Jordan as well. 6/7 rings no doubt, but that's tough and long term (quickest way would be a 4-peat which is near impossible ).

What is more realistically achievable is a 70 win team and another MVP (and these would likely happen together). Keys to that would be recruiting and shooting.

Layer up on some vets/3&D guys to grind out a long season with better spacing.
Get his shot to 17/18 levels again.

Spacing + his own shooting makes his offensive grind easier for the RS. Easier offense means more defensive effort. That's the key to getting up to a +11-12 RS SRS level team which is how you pull out the 70 wins. This would almost assuredly coincide with an MVP.

If they pull off a title this year, I'm pretty certain this is what he's going to go for. I think he tried this in 2017 as well, but that roster was just not built defensively for that kind of season. LA is, and they've got the coaching chops behind em as well.

Tbf the lakers coaching staff offensively is kinda booty, lue wasnt godlike and his defensive coaching was crap but hes one of the better guys in the league at coaching a 5 out offense and getting mismatches

[yoyoboy]

As a Federer homer I love hearing you say that, but I was actually thinking of 4 players from tennis:

Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, and Serena.

We've gone through generations of players who rose after them and then peaked and died like a stinging bee.

I think that whenever we notice something like this within a sport, there's something that really needs to be analyzed that goes beyond the talent and character of the athlete in question.

Not to take anything away from any of those athletes who have surfed the wave of a new generation with adroit mastery though, and I'll note that LeBron stands out like this as a lone outlier at present. We'll have to see if he's a physical anomaly or if this is just the most significant harbinger of a new normal for the sport for players who have the particular talents that age really well.

I think it's pretty obvious at this point that it's the former.
Everyone else is breaking down or declining around him and he seems to really only be suffering from a loss in stamina. 35 year-olds simply should not be moving the way he moves on a nightly basis.


I think his treatment of his body (and his unique mind to a lesser extent) has allowed him to squeeze out 1-3 more elite athletic years than would've been possible in the past and he deserves a lot of credit for that. But by now we should know he's literally "built different".

Well right, but who is this "everybody else"?

Wade? We knew his body likely wouldn't hold up because of the way he played.
Melo? Not smart enough to learn evergreen skills to make up for physical short-comings.
Bosh? Freak health condition.
Howard? See Melo and multiply by farts.

Meanwhile Chris Paul, aka "the smart one"? Holding up pretty damn well. He's degraded further than LeBron specifically because at his size explosiveness is more important.

It's certainly no question that LeBron's longevity in general is incredibly impressive, it's really just a question of whether we can explain it with an answer other than "He's just built more solidly than everybody else."

I absolutely think it's a combination of both. We obviously just have so much more knowledge of diet, training, recovery practices, as well as better travel procedures and less back-to-backs during the season which should all allow for much better longevity for players. And those areas are only continuing to expand. So I do expect players' primes and careers to only last longer going forward.

The question is how many guys will have the same dedication and motivation as LeBron to actually keep up with all those things and stay in their best physical shape possible? Spending $1 million a year on his body, eating the perfect diet, constantly doing cryotherapy, doing all kinds of stretches/workouts that are specifically designed for preventing injury and helping recovery... For LeBron it's a lot different because as he's said, he has that "ghost" to catch so his legacy is what keeps him going instead of being able to enjoy a lot of the fun that most other players are probably having knowing that they know they don't have the same standards or the same long term goals. And that's without even getting into the superhuman joints/ligaments LeBron was apparently blessed with, which have kept him so injury free in his career.

[dreamshake]

There's a part of me that wonders if he'll ever take a discount to bring guys in. But that seems antithetical to everything LeBron stands for as an agent for player empowerment.

I think that was certainly true while he still considered himself to be in his prime and the clear alpha dog of the league. He didn't want to set a precedent to be expected to sacrifice money at the peak of your earning potential. But I wouldn't be surprised if he takes a discount at the tail end of his career. He & CP3 both have player options in '22. Wouldn't surprise me at all if they both take a discount for CP to be a Laker.

[Doctor MJ]

The question is how many guys will have the same dedication and motivation as LeBron to actually keep up with all those things and stay in their best physical shape possible? Spending $1 million a year on his body, eating the perfect diet, constantly doing cryotherapy, doing all kinds of stretches/workouts that are specifically designed for preventing injury and helping recovery... For LeBron it's a lot different because as he's said, he has that "ghost" to catch so his legacy is what keeps him going instead of being able to enjoy a lot of the fun that most other players are probably having knowing that they know they don't have the same standards or the same long term goals. And that's without even getting into the superhuman joints/ligaments LeBron was apparently blessed with, which have kept him so injury free in his career.

This is where all the idolatry of Jordan & Kobe - which really, really bothers me - has really helped. We've had some eras where the "coolest" stars have self-destructive habits with respect to career achievement, and when this happens you get more self-destructive habits propagated.

When guys think about Jordan & Kobe they think in terms of sacrificing everything in the name of being as good as you possibly can be in the NBA.

I do think that LeBron is now in the process of becoming the 3rd man in that trinity, and with a dominant title here he'll have something very different from what Jordan & Kobe had:

Jordan retired before he got too old (and then played for Washington, but people choose to ignore this).

Kobe after he stopped being good enough to actually be relevant went HARD into the elder statesman role wherein the younger stars no longer saw him and his team as an actual threat, but he was able to still carry himself like he was the MVP without being laughed out of the building.

LeBron on the Lakers now appears to be have arrived at elder statesman status while still being the actual King of the league. LeBron's rivals are his proteges, and they're still losing to him. Wow!

All this to say, I think it likely that this will result in subsequent generations thinking of Jordan/Kobe/LeBron rather than, say, Kyrie Irving's Allen Iverson 2.0 impression.

[xb3at band1tx]

It's crazy the Lakers basically steamrolled the west winning every series at 5 and it still feels like the media is holding their tongue lol

Gentlemen sweeping everyone...is not normal.

[Heej]

How do we know LeBron's not just built different mentally? Like I remember reading a biography about Larry Legend when I was young, and one of the things that has stuck with me my entire life is that when you look at where he was born and brought up and the situations he was raised in, there's almost no way that Larry could've grown up not being racist that can't get along with black people. But somehow he did. And from the authors point of view he was just made of sterner stuff than almost every other human. He was literally just built different mentally to be able to block out that kind of environment and truly see into who people are beyond the color of their skin.

There's just something different about LeBron's mental fortitude and constitution. The same way in the Jordan documentary The Last Dance one of the most profound points to me was that Jordan was a master of constantly being present in the moment. It just came naturally to him to not dwell in the past or ruminate about the future. He just existed in his flow state constantly. There are people who are naturally wired like that, I've heard stories of people that are extremely calm most of the time having tests run on them and finding that they naturally just have brainwave patterns similar to Buddhist monks.

LeBron might just be one of those mental anomalies. His durability must be partly born from extremely good stress management practices that minimize inflammation, and probably a great deal of natural visualization of his body state that he imprints on the world. His longevity and ability to improve the longer he goes, whether it be in a series or his career, is almost superhuman.

He's certainly a physical marvel but there's something else there about his mental state that we'll probably only get a real grasp of once the in-depth career retrospective comes out. There are insane stories of people doing stuff all around the world when they focus their mind on it, this guy must be an adept at controlling whatever energy or consciousness field effect is being manipulated, and then honed his techniques to a razor sharp precision on maximizing his basketball career. Maybe he's just the basketball Wym Hoff

[MyUniBroDavis]

I think it's pretty obvious at this point that it's the former.
Everyone else is breaking down or declining around him and he seems to really only be suffering from a loss in stamina. 35 year-olds simply should not be moving the way he moves on a nightly basis.


I think his treatment of his body (and his unique mind to a lesser extent) has allowed him to squeeze out 1-3 more elite athletic years than would've been possible in the past and he deserves a lot of credit for that. But by now we should know he's literally "built different".

Well right, but who is this "everybody else"?

Wade? We knew his body likely wouldn't hold up because of the way he played.
Melo? Not smart enough to learn evergreen skills to make up for physical short-comings.
Bosh? Freak health condition.
Howard? See Melo and multiply by farts.

Meanwhile Chris Paul, aka "the smart one"? Holding up pretty damn well. He's degraded further than LeBron specifically because at his size explosiveness is more important.

It's certainly no question that LeBron's longevity in general is incredibly impressive, it's really just a question of whether we can explain it with an answer other than "He's just built more solidly than everybody else."

I absolutely think it's a combination of both. We obviously just have so much more knowledge of diet, training, recovery practices, as well as better travel procedures and less back-to-backs during the season which should all allow for much better longevity for players. And those areas are only continuing to expand. So I do expect players' primes and careers to only last longer going forward.

The question is how many guys will have the same dedication and motivation as LeBron to actually keep up with all those things and stay in their best physical shape possible? Spending $1 million a year on his body, eating the perfect diet, constantly doing cryotherapy, doing all kinds of stretches/workouts that are specifically designed for preventing injury and helping recovery... For LeBron it's a lot different because as he's said, he has that "ghost" to catch so his legacy is what keeps him going instead of being able to enjoy a lot of the fun that most other players are probably having knowing that they know they don't have the same standards or the same long term goals. And that's without even getting into the superhuman joints/ligaments LeBron was apparently blessed with, which have kept him so injury free in his career.

Isnt brons diet like hilariously bad according to TT

Read on Twitter

[Doctor MJ]

I'm with you on that. Finally checking off that 70 win marker seems like a huge thing on his bucket list. You could tell Bron was gunning for it last year right up until that random 4 game slump. I wonder if he's gonna have another year left being the alpha over AD cuz it's already clear in these playoffs that AD is the more consistent one imo. I suppose they could give him a lifetime achievement MVP like Kobe

Count me as one of those guys who still believes in a threepeat . There's a part of me that wonders if he'll ever take a discount to bring guys in. But that seems antithetical to everything LeBron stands for as an agent for player empowerment.

I think the discount question is a good one, and I think he might but no one will be able to convince him of it outside of his circle.

I think LeBron really decided after Miami that it was a problem to ever allow more money to go to the owner in the name of winning titles because the owners were manipulating the situation for their own profits.

I also think that if LeBron thinks he can get to 7 rings by taking a big discount, he'll do it.

As I say all of that, because LeBron signed a longer deal this time, he's going to be paid huge money until 2022 (I don't believe he'll opt out early and leave that $40 mill year on the table), and in 2022 he'll be starting his 20th season in the league. Even if LeBron is an MVP level player at that point, I would not expect him to be going after a "max deal" type contract. Maybe he'd to a max one year deal, but at that point I wouldn't be at all surprised if he took a multi-year deal on a big discount signaling to the entire NBA he was taking his victory lap(s) with an act of grand magnanimity.

[magicman1978]

Isnt brons diet like hilariously bad according to TT

He made it sound like Lebron ate a ton of junk food, but everything he mentioned is pretty healthy for a professional athlete if prepared correctly.

[D.Brasco]

Isnt brons diet like hilariously bad according to TT

He made it sound like Lebron ate a ton of junk food, but everything he mentioned is pretty healthy for a professional athlete if prepared correctly.

I mean LeBron famously spends a million a year just on his body performance and maintenance, I'm sure that offsets any junk food he eats now and then.

[homecourtloss]

How do we know LeBron's not just built different mentally? Like I remember reading a biography about Larry Legend when I was young, and one of the things that has stuck with me my entire life is that when you look at where he was born and brought up and the situations he was raised in, there's almost no way that Larry could've grown up not being racist that can't get along with black people. But somehow he did. And from the authors point of view he was just made of sterner stuff than almost every other human. He was literally just built different mentally to be able to block out that kind of environment and truly see into who people are beyond the color of their skin.

There's just something different about LeBron's mental fortitude and constitution. The same way in the Jordan documentary The Last Dance one of the most profound points to me was that Jordan was a master of constantly being present in the moment. It just came naturally to him to not dwell in the past or ruminate about the future. He just existed in his flow state constantly. There are people who are naturally wired like that, I've heard stories of people that are extremely calm most of the time having tests run on them and finding that they naturally just have brainwave patterns similar to Buddhist monks.

LeBron might just be one of those mental anomalies. His durability must be partly born from extremely good stress management practices that minimize inflammation, and probably a great deal of natural visualization of his body state that he imprints on the world. His longevity and ability to improve the longer he goes, whether it be in a series or his career, is almost superhuman.

He's certainly a physical marvel but there's something else there about his mental state that we'll probably only get a real grasp of once the in-depth career retrospective comes out. There are insane stories of people doing stuff all around the world when they focus their mind on it, this guy must be an adept at controlling whatever energy or consciousness field effect is being manipulated, and then honed his techniques to a razor sharp precision on maximizing his basketball career. Maybe he's just the basketball Wym Hoff

All his mannerisms and his overall demeanor were so different in that last game vs. the first 4 games. In the first 4 games, he got annoyed every time someone made a shot and proceeded to glare at the bench or Kuzma or KCP or McGee or whoever. Not in this game, though, except once. He sees these other games as building to something better but the closeout game as “game over” and no more “building to something better.”

It’s quite interesting to watch.