The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 7)

[Homer38]

James is the first player to reach the Finals with five different head coaches in NBA history.

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[MisterHibachi]

James is the first player to reach the Finals with five different head coaches in NBA history.

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It really says something about him that he's been able to succeed in so many different team and league contexts. So much for that early 2010 argument that he's not portable.

[Homer38]

James is the first player to reach the Finals with five different head coaches in NBA history.

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It really says something about him that he's been able to succeed in so many different team and league contexts. So much for that early 2010 argument that he's not portable.

And many thought before this year that LBJ needed a great spacing and could not play with big man

[homecourtloss]

James is the first player to reach the Finals with five different head coaches in NBA history.

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It really says something about him that he's been able to succeed in so many different team and league contexts. So much for that early 2010 argument that he's not portable.

I think different people have different interpretations of just what “portability” is, but it’s really difficult to give LeBron the least amount of portability among the GOAT candidates as Elgee and others do when he’s won in vastly different eras as the best player on his team and often as the best player in the league, playing in the NBA with different play styles (ugly slow paced defense ball in the mid 2000s, evolving to more open court but still slow defense oriented game, to a more pace and space, to an all out three-point shooting league in which all 5 players on court can typically make threes), with different rules, with different systems, with different coaches, with space, with no spacing, playing 5 out, playing 2 bigs, playing slow, playing fast, playing as a scorer and/or score facilitator, as a physical freak flying around everywhere, as an older player playing a completely different game than when he first went to the finals 13 years ago.

Through different rules, different league play styles, coaches, teammates, conferences,systems, his own varying athleticism, etc., he’s had an argument as being a championship contender as the best player on his team for almost 15 years now. That’s beyond ridiculous.

[homecourtloss]

James is the first player to reach the Finals with five different head coaches in NBA history.

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I had this up before ESPN and Elias

[JulesWinnfield]

It would be delicious to see LeBron and AD be a perennial terror to the Warriors every year in the playoffs as payback for the bad breaks the last few years. The Giannis talks are frightening though. If any team can pull that off it's the Warriors. Curry is a supremely underrated recruiter. There's something about him that guys want to play WITH as opposed to LeBron whom guys want to play FOR. Him and Giannis would instantly be the GOAT duo and GOAT PNR pairing imo. The synergy is just too insane because even if you switch it you can't really build a wall against Giannis when Klay and Steph are on the floor.

That being said, as someone who just knows Federer is the GOAT but doesn't know much about tennis other than that, the discussions of the nuances of what's made him dominate for so long is fascinating to read. So more of that please cuz imo we've got plenty of time before LeBron plays again and I'm sure there's a lot of parallels you can draw between the 2 greats.

No way Milwaukee even thinks about taking back that Wiggins contract when giving up a two time MVP, so I think the talks start at Draymond, #2 pick, 2021 Timberwolves 1st (top 3 protected), and Warriors 2022 1st. Is that really enough for the Bucks? Not sure they even want Green given that they're not going to be contending anymore without Giannis, and he'll turn 31 next year. I don't know how well his game will age either. That IQ and instincts will help, but his quickness and agility are so crucial as an undersized big who's limited as a scorer. The Bucks aren't attracting FA talent either so it would be a while before they're back to making real noise. They'd want younger talent.

I have no doubt that Giannis would be very interested in joining with Curry given the synergy that pair would have, the marketing opportunities for Giannis in Golden State, and the fact that he and Steph seem to like each other. But GS can't sign him next summer unless they somehow unload BOTH of Draymond and Wiggins while taking virtually no salary back. And so they'd have to trade for him, and I can't imagine another team wouldn't have a more appealing package to offer. Especially given that the Bucks aren't going to be exactly eager to give their franchise player to rejuvenate the dynasty team of recent years.

Milwaukee would be dumb as a box of rocks to trade Giannis anywhere, even if he tells them he’s leaving after the season anyway. You take your chances in 2021 with him, and even if you only have him for 1 more season it’s highly likely your championship odds are higher for that one season than they will be for who knows how long. It could be 25-30 years for all we know until a franchise like the Bucks are this close again. Small market, non destination franchises have to have so much go right just to be as close as the Bucks are now. If I’m them I’m throwing everything into 2021 around Giannis regardless of his desires. Throw your best punch, if it doesn’t land you start over from scratch. A lot more appealing to me than some half assed trade where you’re dealing a dollar for 50 cents and throwing away possibly your best team in 50 years just so you don’t lose Giannis for nothing

[trickshot]

James is the first player to reach the Finals with five different head coaches in NBA history.

[tweet]1310062weet]

It really says something about him that he's been able to succeed in so many different team and league contexts. So much for that early 2010 argument that he's not portable.

And many thought before this year that LBJ needed a great spacing and could not play with big man

Which was always a reach as he played before the 3point explosion. Critics see the conditions he has succeeded in and foolishly hypothesis he couldn't operate without them. Why his supporters are now going to have a field day mocking the western conference thing

[Homer38]

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[ardee]

Gianni to GSW is probably exactly the motivation needed to drive LeBron to another 16>17>18 improvement curve.

Honestly Bob part of me feels like LeBron has so much PTSD from the lost years of the late 2010s that he has enough maniacal motivation left in the tank until Bronny gets here. I can't imagine him being even slightly complacent if they win tbh. This dude's just gonna make up ghosts in his head about the burgeoning young talent coming for him and how he can't waste anymore years dicking around. He'll try to ride AD till the wheels come off and then go mentor Bronny imo lol

I think he still wants a few things against Jordan as well. 6/7 rings no doubt, but that's tough and long term (quickest way would be a 4-peat which is near impossible ).

What is more realistically achievable is a 70 win team and another MVP (and these would likely happen together). Keys to that would be recruiting and shooting.

Layer up on some vets/3&D guys to grind out a long season with better spacing.
Get his shot to 17/18 levels again.

Spacing + his own shooting makes his offensive grind easier for the RS. Easier offense means more defensive effort. That's the key to getting up to a +11-12 RS SRS level team which is how you pull out the 70 wins. This would almost assuredly coincide with an MVP.

If they pull off a title this year, I'm pretty certain this is what he's going to go for. I think he tried this in 2017 as well, but that roster was just not built defensively for that kind of season. LA is, and they've got the coaching chops behind em as well.

The problem is the most likely route to 70 wins is if Davis maintains this level of play for the entire RS.. and it'll be hard for LeBron to win an MVP with his teammate averaging 30/10.

[therealbig3]

So I've been thinking about what if LeBron had stayed in Miami?

Is leaving Miami a fair thing to criticize LeBron about? I mean, we know about their coaching, their management, their "culture". Is it a fair criticism of LeBron that he couldn't jive with their "culture" for more than 4 years, given that their culture clearly leads to winning?

I mean, we see how good Miami is at building a winning team, getting the right players, having a great coach, and never really having to rebuild despite going through multiple different cores. Can't imagine that Miami would have stayed pat with the old, decrepit core they had around LeBron by the end of 2014 and they wouldn't have retooled and given him a new championship-caliber supporting cast, if he gave them another year or two.

But I think LeBron's personality just didn't jive with Riley's, which I don't know if we shouldn't be a little harder on LeBron for that, since Riley is clearly great at what he does.

[Homer38]

So I've been thinking about what if LeBron had stayed in Miami?

Is leaving Miami a fair thing to criticize LeBron about? I mean, we know about their coaching, their management, their "culture". Is it a fair criticism of LeBron that he couldn't jive with their "culture" for more than 4 years, given that their culture clearly leads to winning?

I mean, we see how good Miami is at building a winning team, getting the right players, having a great coach, and never really having to rebuild despite going through multiple different cores. Can't imagine that Miami would have stayed pat with the old, decrepit core they had around LeBron by the end of 2014 and they wouldn't have retooled and given him a new championship-caliber supporting cast, if he gave them another year or two.

But I think LeBron's personality just didn't jive with Riley's, which I don't know if we shouldn't be a little harder on LeBron for that, since Riley is clearly great at what he does.

I think it was very important for LeBron to win a title in Cleveland,a team which had not won a title since 1964.And he did it with one of the best superhuman effort in NBA history against the best regular season team of all-time.I also believe, LBJ would have had a realistic chance of winning in 2015 (without the injuries) and 2017 if the warriors would not have had a historic team.At least one of his 2.

[HeartBreakKid]

So I've been thinking about what if LeBron had stayed in Miami?

Is leaving Miami a fair thing to criticize LeBron about? I mean, we know about their coaching, their management, their "culture". Is it a fair criticism of LeBron that he couldn't jive with their "culture" for more than 4 years, given that their culture clearly leads to winning?

I mean, we see how good Miami is at building a winning team, getting the right players, having a great coach, and never really having to rebuild despite going through multiple different cores. Can't imagine that Miami would have stayed pat with the old, decrepit core they had around LeBron by the end of 2014 and they wouldn't have retooled and given him a new championship-caliber supporting cast, if he gave them another year or two.

But I think LeBron's personality just didn't jive with Riley's, which I don't know if we shouldn't be a little harder on LeBron for that, since Riley is clearly great at what he does.

He went to Cleveland and formed a big 3 and had a championship roster. Things didn't go his way because of injuries and Kevin Durant, but what on earth could Pat Riley have done that was better than that?

[ardee]

So I've been thinking about what if LeBron had stayed in Miami?

Is leaving Miami a fair thing to criticize LeBron about? I mean, we know about their coaching, their management, their "culture". Is it a fair criticism of LeBron that he couldn't jive with their "culture" for more than 4 years, given that their culture clearly leads to winning?

I mean, we see how good Miami is at building a winning team, getting the right players, having a great coach, and never really having to rebuild despite going through multiple different cores. Can't imagine that Miami would have stayed pat with the old, decrepit core they had around LeBron by the end of 2014 and they wouldn't have retooled and given him a new championship-caliber supporting cast, if he gave them another year or two.

But I think LeBron's personality just didn't jive with Riley's, which I don't know if we shouldn't be a little harder on LeBron for that, since Riley is clearly great at what he does.

I don't think there's anything the Heat could've done in the summer of 2014 that would've made them better than a healthy 2015 Cavs team. If he had stayed they would have contended for sure in time but it would've taken time off his window while he waited for the retooling to finish.

[therealbig3]

So I've been thinking about what if LeBron had stayed in Miami?

Is leaving Miami a fair thing to criticize LeBron about? I mean, we know about their coaching, their management, their "culture". Is it a fair criticism of LeBron that he couldn't jive with their "culture" for more than 4 years, given that their culture clearly leads to winning?

I mean, we see how good Miami is at building a winning team, getting the right players, having a great coach, and never really having to rebuild despite going through multiple different cores. Can't imagine that Miami would have stayed pat with the old, decrepit core they had around LeBron by the end of 2014 and they wouldn't have retooled and given him a new championship-caliber supporting cast, if he gave them another year or two.

But I think LeBron's personality just didn't jive with Riley's, which I don't know if we shouldn't be a little harder on LeBron for that, since Riley is clearly great at what he does.

He went to Cleveland and formed a big 3 and had a championship roster. Things didn't go his way because of injuries and Kevin Durant, but what on earth could Pat Riley have done that was better than that?

I agree, I don't think Riley would have been able to build a better situation than what he had in Cleveland, but look at what Riley has done with Miami, and the team they have in place now. Long-term, I think Miami looks like the better spot than Cleveland.

Like, is there any team out there that you would trust more than Miami when it comes to team building? I wouldn't. Lakers have had a bad track record until Anthony Davis fell in their laps, and Cleveland has always been terrible. I think if you're a superstar and you want to find a place that will guarantee you sustained success and a consistent opportunity to compete, Miami should be at the top of the list.

[HeartBreakKid]

So I've been thinking about what if LeBron had stayed in Miami?

Is leaving Miami a fair thing to criticize LeBron about? I mean, we know about their coaching, their management, their "culture". Is it a fair criticism of LeBron that he couldn't jive with their "culture" for more than 4 years, given that their culture clearly leads to winning?

I mean, we see how good Miami is at building a winning team, getting the right players, having a great coach, and never really having to rebuild despite going through multiple different cores. Can't imagine that Miami would have stayed pat with the old, decrepit core they had around LeBron by the end of 2014 and they wouldn't have retooled and given him a new championship-caliber supporting cast, if he gave them another year or two.

But I think LeBron's personality just didn't jive with Riley's, which I don't know if we shouldn't be a little harder on LeBron for that, since Riley is clearly great at what he does.

He went to Cleveland and formed a big 3 and had a championship roster. Things didn't go his way because of injuries and Kevin Durant, but what on earth could Pat Riley have done that was better than that?

I agree, I don't think Riley would have been able to build a better situation than what he had in Cleveland, but look at what Riley has done with Miami, and the team they have in place now. Long-term, I think Miami looks like the better spot than Cleveland.

Like, is there any team out there that you would trust more than Miami when it comes to team building? I wouldn't. Lakers have had a bad track record until Anthony Davis fell in their laps, and Cleveland has always been terrible. I think if you're a superstar and you want to find a place that will guarantee you sustained success and a consistent opportunity to compete, Miami should be at the top of the list.

LBJ went to LA because if he wins with LA it will help his legacy much more than Miami, not because the Lakers are a better club than Miami. Everyone was aware at the time that James was joining a lottery team.

Anyway, Chris Bosh would have killed their cap space and LBJ probably would have not win any titles during the GSW era.

[Doctor MJ]

Like, is there any team out there that you would trust more than Miami when it comes to team building? I wouldn't. Lakers have had a bad track record until Anthony Davis fell in their laps, and Cleveland has always been terrible. I think if you're a superstar and you want to find a place that will guarantee you sustained success and a consistent opportunity to compete, Miami should be at the top of the list.

Miami definitely feels like the best-run organization in the league at this moment and even if they aren't #1, they're clearly in that elite group.

I would disagree that AD was the turning point for the Lakers. LeBron choosing the Lakers was the thing precisely because the Lakers weren't well-run. We know the reasons why LeBron was pulled to the Lakers, but it could have easily gone otherwise, and if it had, the Lakers might find that all of their history wasn't really helping them all that much as I don't think it was a given that your average superstar wanted to come to the Lakers. LeBron wanted it, and I think at this point he seems like he really knew what he was doing.

[JulesWinnfield]

I could be wrong but I think when Lebron went to LA he had an extremely high reason to think Anthony Davis was coming shortly, I’d go as far as to say he knew it was happening. Let’s not forget AD switching to Klutch that same offseason, and the way he essentially forced his way to LA doesn’t do anything to change my mind. I don’t think a 34 year old Lebron is just going to a lotto team and blindly trusting the front office to surround him with help. Even with that organization (heck I’d argue especially with that organization, as he was going to a fan base already predisposed to hating him and would take joy in pouncing on him if he failed to produce contenders). He probably was ok waiting the year because he knew in his heart of hearts that what Golden State had at the time was unbeatable if healthy anyway.

Maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t think I am. I think they’re 4 wins away from the culmination of a plan that was hatched 2 years ago in more detail than anyone knew at the time

[TheGOATRises007]

So I've been thinking about what if LeBron had stayed in Miami?

Is leaving Miami a fair thing to criticize LeBron about? I mean, we know about their coaching, their management, their "culture". Is it a fair criticism of LeBron that he couldn't jive with their "culture" for more than 4 years, given that their culture clearly leads to winning?

I mean, we see how good Miami is at building a winning team, getting the right players, having a great coach, and never really having to rebuild despite going through multiple different cores. Can't imagine that Miami would have stayed pat with the old, decrepit core they had around LeBron by the end of 2014 and they wouldn't have retooled and given him a new championship-caliber supporting cast, if he gave them another year or two.

But I think LeBron's personality just didn't jive with Riley's, which I don't know if we shouldn't be a little harder on LeBron for that, since Riley is clearly great at what he does.

Why should he have stayed in Miami?

They were starting to make poor roster moves. Wade was declining and then obviously Bosh had his blood clot issues afterwards(with hindsight of course).

By the end, their team was pretty poor. There were probably 4-5 teams besides the Spurs in the West that were better than the 2014 Heat team.

He made a great move going back to the Cavaliers for the narrative and his legacy + improved his chances of winning a title exponentially.

[TheGOATRises007]

I could be wrong but I think when Lebron went to LA he had an extremely high reason to think Anthony Davis was coming shortly, I’d go as far as to say he knew it was happening. Let’s not forget AD switching to Klutch that same offseason, and the way he essentially forced his way to LA doesn’t do anything to change my mind. I don’t think a 34 year old Lebron is just going to a lotto team and blindly trusting the front office to surround him with help. Even with that organization (heck I’d argue especially with that organization, as he was going to a fan base already predisposed to hating him and would take joy in pouncing on him if he failed to produce contenders). He probably was ok waiting the year because he knew in his heart of hearts that what Golden State had at the time was unbeatable if healthy anyway.

Maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t think I am. I think they’re 4 wins away from the culmination of a plan that was hatched 2 years ago in more detail than anyone knew at the time

You're not. It was 100% Lebron's plan in going to the Lakers.

I was critical of his move, but he played 4D chess. He knew the Lakers had young assets to land AD. They share the same agent. It was definitely talked about between the two.

[Larry David]

Just thinking about the 2018 summer chatter all about Lebron moving to the "next phase of his life" and getting involved in Hollywood

Hilarious stuff