Too much stuff to quote
SideshowBob wrote:Giannis to GSW is probably exactly the motivation needed to drive LeBron to another 16>17>18 improvement curve.
the '11 -'14 and '15-'18 parallels are crazy (I mean just based on how his jumpshot performed it's crazy), if he has another curve like that it'll be insane. So if we take that this is the most Magic-like he's been, that improvement curve would mean in the last year his jumpshot will have improved significantly (again), and his passing and playmaking probably hits another half-tier/tier. Factoring in some decline in his athleticism/explosiveness would mean his rim pressure from the triple threat is reduced, so he'll probably have to move to the post more often, then on D he'll still have that great IQ but probably less explosive rotations etc.
Who's his closest comparable then? Magic '88-ish, not as great a playmaker/passer obviously, but a better shooter and defender? That's still close to the top of the league right? (And will be tops if his rim pressure doesn't decline as steeply)
Doctor MJ wrote:Baski wrote:Doctor MJ wrote:
As a Federer homer I love hearing you say that, but I was actually thinking of 4 players from tennis:
Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, and Serena.
We've gone through generations of players who rose after them and then peaked and died like a stinging bee.
I think that whenever we notice something like this within a sport, there's something that really needs to be analyzed that goes beyond the talent and character of the athlete in question.
Not to take anything away from any of those athletes who have surfed the wave of a new generation with adroit mastery though, and I'll note that LeBron stands out like this as a lone outlier at present. We'll have to see if he's a physical anomaly or if this is just the most significant harbinger of a new normal for the sport for players who have the particular talents that age really well.
I think it's pretty obvious at this point that it's the former.
Everyone else is breaking down or declining around him and he seems to really only be suffering from a loss in stamina. 35 year-olds simply should not be moving the way he moves on a nightly basis.
I think his treatment of his body (and his unique mind to a lesser extent) has allowed him to squeeze out 1-3 more elite athletic years than would've been possible in the past and he deserves a lot of credit for that. But by now we should know he's literally "built different".
Well right, but who is this "everybody else"?
Wade? We knew his body likely wouldn't hold up because of the way he played.
Melo? Not smart enough to learn evergreen skills to make up for physical short-comings.
Bosh? Freak health condition.
Howard? See Melo and multiply by farts.
Meanwhile Chris Paul, aka "the smart one"? Holding up pretty damn well. He's degraded further than LeBron specifically because at his size explosiveness is more important.
It's certainly no question that LeBron's longevity in general is incredibly impressive, it's really just a question of whether we can explain it with an answer other than "He's just built more solidly than everybody else."
@Doc: I'm a Fed homer through and through, though I believe by objective measures he's still the best. The sustained excellence, across surface and accounting for context (this is why I think Djokovic > Nadal too) is just unmatched.
Djokovic is closest to him, but he's a shade less consistent. 2011, he has one of the best non-Fed years ever, 2012-14 he's nowhere near as good, 2015 he wins a lot but gets pushed to the limit by an old man Fed who just couldn't convert break points (a weakness throughout his career for sure - but can you imagine prime Fed playing Djokovic during his Djoko slam years?), 2016's another truly dominant year... Then he gets injured and 2017-2018 Fed has his unbelievable resurgence before things return to form and Djokovic is dominating again.
Still incredible, but not peak Fed-level. 2017 (and 2019 Wimbledon, were he to have won it... God damn it Fed, 40-15!!!) amazingly enough, will always be the trump card for Fed fans - we'd been screaming for years before then that were Fed younger, he would absolutely destroy everyone in this stronger era (because haters were saying his era was weak)... turns out he'd do that even if he was older, as long as he wasn't stubborn enough to keep using a smaller racquet size and tournaments use non-snail's pace surfaces (thanks, 2017 AO).
General point about comparing GOAT-tier athletes: LeBron doesn't really have clean parallels with most of the rest of them though. Guys like Federer and Messi compare more favorably to Jordan - their peaks were unquestionably the best driven by their genius-level IQs and skillsets, but they also seemingly did it in a way that expressed their creativity, resulting in unparalleled artistry.
Not to say LeBron's game isn't elegant or great to watch - it is, obviously. He's just no Jordan in that department. Instead he's in a group with Djokovic, C. Ronaldo - all-around athletic monsters whose GOAT candidacies are based around just accumulating more years of (sliiiiightly less impactful, compared to the first group) ATG seasons. Their games seemed to be less artistic expressions, and more brutally optimized choices. (C. Ronaldo's the only real exception here, because football just lends itself far better to expression than basketball or tennis. In fact, his insistence on flair, taking free kicks a certain way have limited his effectiveness in some way... Which is terrifying to think about). These guys are geniuses in their own right, but a shade less than the first group
What I find even more interesting is that this second group are typically better athletes (overall, period), than the first group, but not better athletes FOR THEIR SPORT. Ronaldo's height and power make him better than Messi at well, literally everything else, but Messi's (lack of) height enables him to dribble better, which is a far more important skill (sound familiar? This specific skill-set comparison reminds me of LeBron/Curry)
This sort of duality between the artistic geniuses and the brutal machines (if I were being mean I would say artificial geniuses) exists in pretty much every sport, and it's always fun trying to point out who's who.
