Nuggets Trades

[THE J0KER]

Nuggets Mailbag: Will Denver consider trading Gary Harris, Will Barton for backcourt upgrade?

Interesting quotes:

Mike Singer: My gut tells me the Nuggets leave no stone unturned this offseason. There was chatter at the deadline around Pelicans guard Jrue Holiday, and I wouldn’t be surprised at all if those discussions get revisited. Holiday has one year left on his contract before he can become a free agent, so the Nuggets would need to assess whether they think he could be a long-term play or if they’re comfortable going for it next season. I think Gary Harris and/or Will Barton could absolutely be used in a trade to land a player like that, along with at least one or two first-round picks. The Nuggets have No. 22 (via Houston) this upcoming draft. 7 hours ago – via Mike Singer @ Denver Post

Given Gary Harris’ struggles the last two seasons and Will Barton’s struggle last postseason, do you see the Nuggets trading one or both of them in order to upgrade the shooting guard spot? — Ryan J, Denver. Mike Singer: I think moving on from Harris and/or Barton is a real possibility this offseason. If I had to guess, I’d think Harris might be the more likely one. Two seasons ago, Harris was a borderline All-Star. Injuries hampered his availability and his confidence has been shaky since then. One could argue he’d benefit from a change of scenery. It would be a gut-wrenching move for Tim Connelly, since Harris is one of the staples of the locker room. 7 hours ago – via Mike Singer @ Denver Post

[TunaFish]

Denver Nuggets Trade Breakdown
Incoming Players
Wendell Carter, Jr., Chandler Hutchison, Al Horford, Matisse Thybulle, 34th overall pick
Outgoing Players
Gary Harris, Will Barton, Monte Morris

Murray/ Dozier/ Hampton
Thybulle/ Hutchison
MPJ/ Hutchison/ KBD
Grant/ Carter Jr/ Cancar
Jokic/ Horford/ Bol

Interesting trade you have proposed. I think Horford may be sliding downhill much like Millsap even though younger than Millsap. At least with Millsap, his contract is over and he might come back cheaply. Horford is a max contract with 3 more years to go and he is not playing well enough at this contract level or even close. That alone kills the trade for me. Now if this was Horford at 29 years of age, I would have a different take.

Some of the other pieces are interesting though. My biggest problem with the rest is that I don't think either Thybullle or Hutchison are starting caliber players yet, although with seasoning they might be, just not for a team trying to contend now. There are major questions marks about their offense. For the bench I would be interested but not for relying on either of them as a starter. Carter Jr. is an enigma big and might be a bust, although coming off the bench, he might be worth a gamble.

My biggest issue with replacing Gary Harris is the need for a better shooting guard who can play defense but at least give you enough offense to make a difference. This trade is too much of a gamble and I would stay with Harris unless we find a more obvious upgrade.

Solely due to Horford, its a no for me.

[TunaFish]

Oladipo has been rumored to want out of Indiana with the desire to move to a contender. His contract is only a bit larger than Garry Harris' and has one year remaining. Injury is the issue but there are claims that he is now fully recovered. Indiana has had interest in Garry Harris in the past.

In addition to his scoring (though down this season), Oladipo he has been on the all nba defensive team. Similar size as well and 28 years old. The fact that he is an expiring contract is an issue.

How about Garry and this years pick for Oladipo or maybe even straight up with no picks.

[The Rebel]

Denver Nuggets Trade Breakdown
Incoming Players
Wendell Carter, Jr., Chandler Hutchison, Al Horford, Matisse Thybulle, 34th overall pick
Outgoing Players
Gary Harris, Will Barton, Monte Morris

Murray/ Dozier/ Hampton
Thybulle/ Hutchison
MPJ/ Hutchison/ KBD
Grant/ Carter Jr/ Cancar
Jokic/ Horford/ Bol

Interesting trade you have proposed. I think Horford may be sliding downhill much like Millsap even though younger than Millsap. At least with Millsap, his contract is over and he might come back cheaply. Horford is a max contract with 3 more years to go and he is not playing well enough at this contract level or even close. That alone kills the trade for me. Now if this was Horford at 29 years of age, I would have a different take.

Some of the other pieces are interesting though. My biggest problem with the rest is that I don't think either Thybullle or Hutchison are starting caliber players yet, although with seasoning they might be, just not for a team trying to contend now. There are major questions marks about their offense. For the bench I would be interested but not for relying on either of them as a starter. Carter Jr. is an enigma big and might be a bust, although coming off the bench, he might be worth a gamble.

My biggest issue with replacing Gary Harris is the need for a better shooting guard who can play defense but at least give you enough offense to make a difference. This trade is too much of a gamble and I would stay with Harris unless we find a more obvious upgrade.

Solely due to Horford, its a no for me.

Thybulle is a 37% 3 point shooter, they have to cover him at the line, which is all we really need at SG. We don't need 5 20 ppg scorers, we need defense, and just like when we had Melo and Dahntey Jones started, Thybulle would be the 5th starter who's only purpose is play defense and hit the shots he is given.

Carter JR put up 11 and 9 on good shooting and solid defense at 20 years old, that is not a guy who is a bust. He may not be a superstar, but he is a very solid big man already.

Horford has a bad contract it is not a max deal though. As I said that really only comes into play in year 3 when we have to extend MPJ, until then we easily avoid the tax while loading the roster with more young talent that will grow us into a contender by the playoffs next year. Also if you look at his stats without Embiid on the court, he puts up very similar stats to what he did in Boston.

[The Rebel]

Oladipo has been rumored to want out of Indiana with the desire to move to a contender. His contract is only a bit larger than Garry Harris' and has one year remaining. Injury is the issue but there are claims that he is now fully recovered. Indiana has had interest in Garry Harris in the past.

In addition to his scoring (though down this season), Oladipo he has been on the all nba defensive team. Similar size as well and 28 years old. The fact that he is an expiring contract is an issue.

How about Garry and this years pick for Oladipo or maybe even straight up with no picks.

Oladipo is reportedly wanting the trade out of Indiana because they have decided to run the offense more through Sabonis and Brogdon. Why would he be happy here?

It is funny to me how many want Oladipo especially considering Harris was better than him the last 2 years, on both ends. I would laugh at giving up a pick for Oladipo, and would expect the pick to come back to us to take a lockerroom problem and a downgrade at the same time.

You want an iso player that can score? Do you realize that even 3 years ago when Oladipo was all the rage, Harris scored more PPP on isos and drives?

Also I cannot figure out what you or many that are pushing ball dominate guards think we will get out of a player? It takes the ball out of Jokic and Murray's hands, and also takes shots away from MPJ. You want to bring in an inferior player and take the ball out of better players hands, it does not make sense to me. Adding a ball dominate guy is shooting ourselves in the foot, it will be like when we brought Iverson in to play with Melo, no offensive flow and the team is worse on the court than on paper.

[THE J0KER]

Oladipo has been rumored to want out of Indiana with the desire to move to a contender. His contract is only a bit larger than Garry Harris' and has one year remaining. Injury is the issue but there are claims that he is now fully recovered. Indiana has had interest in Garry Harris in the past.

In addition to his scoring (though down this season), Oladipo he has been on the all nba defensive team. Similar size as well and 28 years old. The fact that he is an expiring contract is an issue.

How about Garry and this years pick for Oladipo or maybe even straight up with no picks.

Oladipo is reportedly wanting the trade out of Indiana because they have decided to run the offense more through Sabonis and Brogdon. Why would he be happy here?

It is funny to me how many want Oladipo especially considering Harris was better than him the last 2 years, on both ends. I would laugh at giving up a pick for Oladipo, and would expect the pick to come back to us to take a lockerroom problem and a downgrade at the same time.

You want an iso player that can score? Do you realize that even 3 years ago when Oladipo was all the rage, Harris scored more PPP on isos and drives?

Also I cannot figure out what you or many that are pushing ball dominate guards think we will get out of a player? It takes the ball out of Jokic and Murray's hands, and also takes shots away from MPJ. You want to bring in an inferior player and take the ball out of better players hands, it does not make sense to me. Adding a ball dominate guy is shooting ourselves in the foot, it will be like when we brought Iverson in to play with Melo, no offensive flow and the team is worse on the court than on paper.

Just two years ago Oladipo was a true TOP20 player of 2017-18 season, if not TOP15, so it is hard for people to realize that despite being in prime years for a basketball player (29) he is done as an elite player forever after that career-damaging injury. And even if he significantly less declined past two years, why would Nuggets gamble on a guy which played in the past two seasons just 36+19 games? To be fair, he seems improved in the series vs Celtics, but should we make a big gamble stake based on just 3 good games? If we want to add to Jamal-MPJ-Joker another "executer", only if he is all-star in his prime (like Beal for example) makes sense, otherwise, we will get another case of the Barton paradox (or I should say Monte Ellis?) where a player playing decent basketball makes his team worse because he takes his minutes and shots from clearly more efficient players!

The fact is that the Pacers are interesting in the past of Harris and Barton both, so we can use it in the eventual 3-team deal, or target Malcolm Brogdon, even if that will cost us Harris+Barton+Bol+#22 (in that case we should take from Indiana young Goga Bitadze for the backup center job).

[The Rebel]

-

I think if you expand the deal to Barton, Morris, and Cancar for Satoransky, Hutchison, and Gafford or Carter JR than the deal becomes much more likeable for the Bulls. Although it makes it worse for us, I would still do it as we get exactly what we need for our bench at the 2/3 and 5.

I think I could go for that expanded trade if we could get a draft pick thrown in, Satonansky is dead-weight and but will come off the cap earlier than Barton but Barton is definitely the better player along with Morris so a future lightly protected 1st or a couple of 2nds

I was thinking about this deal, you know maybe they would accept Morris and either Cancar or KBD with the 22nd pick for Hutchison, Gafford, the 44th pick and their 2nd next year which is the better of the Pelicans or Bulls 2nd rounder.

ON the surface we lose a little value with the picks, but we get a guy who is an upgrade on Craig and a young 4/5 that fits what we need, plus we are going to need guys who are cheap in a couple of years so taking a couple of draft and stash types would be a good idea. so I think we are better off in the end.

[The Rebel]

Oladipo has been rumored to want out of Indiana with the desire to move to a contender. His contract is only a bit larger than Garry Harris' and has one year remaining. Injury is the issue but there are claims that he is now fully recovered. Indiana has had interest in Garry Harris in the past.

In addition to his scoring (though down this season), Oladipo he has been on the all nba defensive team. Similar size as well and 28 years old. The fact that he is an expiring contract is an issue.

How about Garry and this years pick for Oladipo or maybe even straight up with no picks.

Oladipo is reportedly wanting the trade out of Indiana because they have decided to run the offense more through Sabonis and Brogdon. Why would he be happy here?

It is funny to me how many want Oladipo especially considering Harris was better than him the last 2 years, on both ends. I would laugh at giving up a pick for Oladipo, and would expect the pick to come back to us to take a lockerroom problem and a downgrade at the same time.

You want an iso player that can score? Do you realize that even 3 years ago when Oladipo was all the rage, Harris scored more PPP on isos and drives?

Also I cannot figure out what you or many that are pushing ball dominate guards think we will get out of a player? It takes the ball out of Jokic and Murray's hands, and also takes shots away from MPJ. You want to bring in an inferior player and take the ball out of better players hands, it does not make sense to me. Adding a ball dominate guy is shooting ourselves in the foot, it will be like when we brought Iverson in to play with Melo, no offensive flow and the team is worse on the court than on paper.

Just two years ago Oladipo was a true TOP20 player of 2017-18 season, if not TOP15, so it is hard for people to realize that despite being in prime years for a basketball player (29) he is done as an elite player forever after that career-damaging injury. And even if he significantly less declined past two years, why would Nuggets gamble on a guy which played in the past two seasons just 36+19 games? To be fair, he seems improved in the series vs Celtics, but should we make a big gamble stake based on just 3 good games? If we want to add to Jamal-MPJ-Joker another "executer", only if he is all-star in his prime (like Beal for example) makes sense, otherwise, we will get another case of the Barton paradox (or I should say Monte Ellis?) where a player playing decent basketball makes his team worse because he takes his minutes and shots from clearly more efficient players!

The fact is that the Pacers are interesting in the past of Harris and Barton both, so we can use it in the eventual 3-team deal, or target Malcolm Brogdon, even if that will cost us Harris+Barton+Bol+#22 (in that case we should take from Indiana young Goga Bitadze for the backup center job).

I don't think Oladipo was a top 20 player 3-4 years ago. He got a lot of credit because he was the biggest name on the Pacers after he broke out, but if you really look at the stats he was no better than Harris on either end, he just got a lot more shots than Harris had and was a slightly better passer while Harris was the better defender.

I do agree that he is likely done as an elite player, and there is no way I would trade Harris or Barton for him.

[TunaFish]

Harris was the better defender.

I like Harris but there is a solid debate that Oladipo is one of the top defenders in the NBA. In 2018, Oladipo was named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team. In college he was the National Co-Defensive Player of the Year,

On March 23, in a 109–104 win over the Los Angeles Clippers, Oladipo extended his streak of games with at least one steal to 56 games, breaking a tie with Chris Paul and Gary Payton for the sixth-longest such streak in NBA history

Also, Oladipo was named the NBA Most Improved Player for the 2017–18 season. Oladipo averaged 23.1 points per game (ninth in the NBA), 5.2 rebounds, 4.3 assists and led the NBA in steals at 2.4 per game. He was All-NBA Third Team in his first season with Indiana. Those are elite numbers.

Harris has never approached these numbers nor has he been named to any All-Defensive Team (although I think he should have at least once).

Injury is the issue with Oladipo, same as with Harris, I concede that point. However, if Oladipo has recovered then he is the superior player.

[THE J0KER]

Oladipo is reportedly wanting the trade out of Indiana because they have decided to run the offense more through Sabonis and Brogdon. Why would he be happy here?

It is funny to me how many want Oladipo especially considering Harris was better than him the last 2 years, on both ends. I would laugh at giving up a pick for Oladipo, and would expect the pick to come back to us to take a lockerroom problem and a downgrade at the same time.

You want an iso player that can score? Do you realize that even 3 years ago when Oladipo was all the rage, Harris scored more PPP on isos and drives?

Also I cannot figure out what you or many that are pushing ball dominate guards think we will get out of a player? It takes the ball out of Jokic and Murray's hands, and also takes shots away from MPJ. You want to bring in an inferior player and take the ball out of better players hands, it does not make sense to me. Adding a ball dominate guy is shooting ourselves in the foot, it will be like when we brought Iverson in to play with Melo, no offensive flow and the team is worse on the court than on paper.

Just two years ago Oladipo was a true TOP20 player of 2017-18 season, if not TOP15, so it is hard for people to realize that despite being in prime years for a basketball player (29) he is done as an elite player forever after that career-damaging injury. And even if he significantly less declined past two years, why would Nuggets gamble on a guy which played in the past two seasons just 36+19 games? To be fair, he seems improved in the series vs Celtics, but should we make a big gamble stake based on just 3 good games? If we want to add to Jamal-MPJ-Joker another "executer", only if he is all-star in his prime (like Beal for example) makes sense, otherwise, we will get another case of the Barton paradox (or I should say Monte Ellis?) where a player playing decent basketball makes his team worse because he takes his minutes and shots from clearly more efficient players!

The fact is that the Pacers are interesting in the past of Harris and Barton both, so we can use it in the eventual 3-team deal, or target Malcolm Brogdon, even if that will cost us Harris+Barton+Bol+#22 (in that case we should take from Indiana young Goga Bitadze for the backup center job).

I don't think Oladipo was a top 20 player 3-4 years ago. He got a lot of credit because he was the biggest name on the Pacers after he broke out, but if you really look at the stats he was no better than Harris on either end, he just got a lot more shots than Harris had and was a slightly better passer while Harris was the better defender.

I do agree that he is likely done as an elite player, and there is no way I would trade Harris or Barton for him.

I didn't talk about 3-4 years ago, but about that particular 2017-18 season when Oladipo has a spectacular breakthrough into an all-star player (officially 2018 NBA most improved player), all-NBA defensive 1st team (including NBA #1 in steals that season), and member of all-NBA 3rd team with 23-5-4 (TS%58%) numbers... With all respect to Harris back on days when he is a two-way player, not just a defensive specialist, he was never close to that level. But unfortunately, that Oladipo not existing anymore. Isn't we already have a very bad experience "HE IS ALL-STAR JUST TWO YEARS AGO" with Isaiah Thomas? Some injuries are game-changers in many pro-athletes cases.

[skywalker33]

Oladipo just seems to me like a Barton + type player, he looks to play hero-ball too often. If, as Rebel alludes to, he has a problem with the offense running through Sabonis, imagine the dissent about it running through Jokic and Murray.

Offering Harris+Barton+Bol+22 is way too much even adding in Bitadze. We lose a starter, two stong backups along with a draft pick (although I don't see much more than 2nd unit production from #22 pick) for a disgruntled starter and a backup C (not sure I see Goga as a fit here)

[The Rebel]

Harris was the better defender.

I like Harris but there is a solid debate that Oladipo is one of the top defenders in the NBA. In 2018, Oladipo was named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team. In college he was the National Co-Defensive Player of the Year,

On March 23, in a 109–104 win over the Los Angeles Clippers, Oladipo extended his streak of games with at least one steal to 56 games, breaking a tie with Chris Paul and Gary Payton for the sixth-longest such streak in NBA history

Also, Oladipo was named the NBA Most Improved Player for the 2017–18 season. Oladipo averaged 23.1 points per game (ninth in the NBA), 5.2 rebounds, 4.3 assists and led the NBA in steals at 2.4 per game. He was All-NBA Third Team in his first season with Indiana. Those are elite numbers.

Harris has never approached these numbers nor has he been named to any All-Defensive Team (although I think he should have at least once).

Injury is the issue with Oladipo, same as with Harris, I concede that point. However, if Oladipo has recovered then he is the superior player.

Awards voted on by the media and fans mean nothing to me when comparing a player to a Nuggets player, it took the announcers until game 2 of the Clippers game to quit calling Jokic Nurkic, and we all know how long it has been since Nurkic was even on the Nuggets.

As for stats, Oladipo was given the ball and the green light to do what he pleased when he got to Indiana, Harris has never had that opportunity.

As for steals, yes they are nice, but a lot of steals are scheme dependent, Iverson led the league in steals some years, and nobody is ever going to say he was a great defender.

Here are some stats from the 2017-2018 season to consider.

Harris shot .597 TS % Oladipo shot .577 TS%

Harris allowed 44.8 shooting percentage and 34.4 from 3, Oladipo allowed 45% and 36.2%

Both guys are injury prone, Harris is clearly the better player this past season, and it is very arguable that Harris was better 3 years ago as well. We can go over more stats, but when they were both healthy the last time it is not nearly as clear as you seem to think.

[THE J0KER]

Seems that right now the team which wants to get Oladipo more than others are New York Knicks. (Knicks Reportedly Prefer Trading For Victor Oladipo Over Chris Paul)

After that information do we need more proof that the Oladipo trade is a bad idea?

[skywalker33]

I'd really like to see us trade up in the draft for Devin Vassell, the wing out of Fla St. Perhaps something like Barton and the 22nd pick, I see him being selected between 9-14 so we may have to add something else to get up that high. But I see a soothe 2-way player with good size and range, strong effort on the defensive side yet not so ball-hogging, would be a great fit next to Murray IMO

[TunaFish]

I'd really like to see us trade up in the draft for Devin Vassell, the wing out of Fla St. Perhaps something like Barton and the 22nd pick, I see him being selected between 9-14 so we may have to add something else to get up that high. But I see a soothe 2-way player with good size and range, strong effort on the defensive side yet not so ball-hogging, would be a great fit next to Murray IMO

I am in the down on the prospects in the this year's draft, what a crap shoot. You could be right but if we were to go this route, it would make me wonder more about why we let Malik Beasley go. Perhaps Vassell is a better defender but Beasley was a better offensive prospect, I think.

I hope we trade the pick but for a veteran upgrade at SG.

[skywalker33]

I'd really like to see us trade up in the draft for Devin Vassell, the wing out of Fla St. Perhaps something like Barton and the 22nd pick, I see him being selected between 9-14 so we may have to add something else to get up that high. But I see a soothe 2-way player with good size and range, strong effort on the defensive side yet not so ball-hogging, would be a great fit next to Murray IMO

I am in the down on the prospects in the this year's draft, what a crap shoot. You could be right but if we were to go this route, it would make me wonder more about why we let Malik Beasley go. Perhaps Vassell is a better defender but Beasley was a better offensive prospect, I think.

I hope we trade the pick but for a veteran upgrade at SG.

Is this still a mystery for some ?? Take a look at our present cap situation and tell me how we were going to pay Grant AND Beasley, we'd definitely be losing Juancho for free w/o that trade.

As for the draft pick, I'm OK trading it too but if not up for Vassell, I'd prefer trading out for a 2021 1st, seems like a better draft and we'd have more maneuverability with 2 1sts. Did you have any specific SGs in mind for the upgrade ??

[THE J0KER]

Jrue Holiday Wins 2019-20 Twyman-Stokes Teammate Of The Year Award. Another plus for him. Seems he is loved and respected in the locker room.

[TunaFish]

I'd really like to see us trade up in the draft for Devin Vassell, the wing out of Fla St. Perhaps something like Barton and the 22nd pick, I see him being selected between 9-14 so we may have to add something else to get up that high. But I see a soothe 2-way player with good size and range, strong effort on the defensive side yet not so ball-hogging, would be a great fit next to Murray IMO

I am in the down on the prospects in the this year's draft, what a crap shoot. You could be right but if we were to go this route, it would make me wonder more about why we let Malik Beasley go. Perhaps Vassell is a better defender but Beasley was a better offensive prospect, I think.

I hope we trade the pick but for a veteran upgrade at SG.

Is this still a mystery for some ?? Take a look at our present cap situation and tell me how we were going to pay Grant AND Beasley, we'd definitely be losing Juancho for free w/o that trade.

As for the draft pick, I'm OK trading it too but if not up for Vassell, I'd prefer trading out for a 2021 1st, seems like a better draft and we'd have more maneuverability with 2 1sts. Did you have any specific SGs in mind for the upgrade ??

Holiday would be good but the Pelicans may get something back better than what Denver can offer. I still like Oladipo if he has in fact recovered but same problem in that he may be sought after. Will have to trust in TC.

[skywalker33]

I am in the down on the prospects in the this year's draft, what a crap shoot. You could be right but if we were to go this route, it would make me wonder more about why we let Malik Beasley go. Perhaps Vassell is a better defender but Beasley was a better offensive prospect, I think.

I hope we trade the pick but for a veteran upgrade at SG.

Is this still a mystery for some ?? Take a look at our present cap situation and tell me how we were going to pay Grant AND Beasley, we'd definitely be losing Juancho for free w/o that trade.

As for the draft pick, I'm OK trading it too but if not up for Vassell, I'd prefer trading out for a 2021 1st, seems like a better draft and we'd have more maneuverability with 2 1sts. Did you have any specific SGs in mind for the upgrade ??

Holiday would be good but the Pelicans may get something back better than what Denver can offer. I still like Oladipo if he has in fact recovered but same problem in that he may be sought after. Will have to trust in TC.

Absolutely agree with Jrue but I don't care for his $27M salary while having to resign him and Oladipo scares me with his injury. At least you weren't overzealous and mentioned Beal, he'd definitely cost and arm and a leg.

[NuggetsWY]

Is this still a mystery for some ?? Take a look at our present cap situation and tell me how we were going to pay Grant AND Beasley, we'd definitely be losing Juancho for free w/o that trade.

As for the draft pick, I'm OK trading it too but if not up for Vassell, I'd prefer trading out for a 2021 1st, seems like a better draft and we'd have more maneuverability with 2 1sts. Did you have any specific SGs in mind for the upgrade ??

Holiday would be good but the Pelicans may get something back better than what Denver can offer. I still like Oladipo if he has in fact recovered but same problem in that he may be sought after. Will have to trust in TC.

Absolutely agree with Jrue but I don't care for his $27M salary while having to resign him and Oladipo scares me with his injury. At least you weren't overzealous and mentioned Beal, he'd definitely cost and arm and a leg.

I like Beal better than Oladipo.
As for Jrue, one year of $27m and then, at his age, it is likely we can re-sign him for less - especially if Jokic & Murray continue their path and Porter starts reaching his potential. Adding Jrue to those three, looks like an impressive team that just might persuade Jrue to stay here.