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god shammgod wrote:Deeeez Knicks wrote:
the stat in the middle is what i mean when i say people don't understand how much he affects winning. they compare him to other guys like mcgee or whoever who don't have the impact he does. he changes the game every time he enters.
HerSports85 wrote:3toheadmelo wrote:DSJ working with Mahmoud Abdul- Rauf. Nice
I love this for DSJ - for his game and mentally
god shammgod wrote:Deeeez Knicks wrote:
the stat in the middle is what i mean when i say people don't understand how much he affects winning. they compare him to other guys like mcgee or whoever who don't have the impact he does. he changes the game every time he enters.
HerSports85 wrote:3toheadmelo wrote:DSJ working with Mahmoud Abdul- Rauf. Nice
I love this for DSJ - for his game and mentally
Deeeez Knicks wrote:god shammgod wrote:Deeeez Knicks wrote:
the stat in the middle is what i mean when i say people don't understand how much he affects winning. they compare him to other guys like mcgee or whoever who don't have the impact he does. he changes the game every time he enters.
Yea, pretty much every metric shows Mitch makes a big impact on both ends and was our best player. Despite horrible coaching, 0 spacing, and bad PG play he still broke the fg% record. He will only get better, just if we improve the situation and give him more minutes...then if he also can improve some areas of his game he has a lot of room to get better.
Manhattan Project wrote:HerSports85 wrote:3toheadmelo wrote:DSJ working with Mahmoud Abdul- Rauf. Nice
I love this for DSJ - for his game and mentally
I mean I don't know how much a few workouts is going to do for a player, but it's the second part you said that's more interesting to me. Abdul-Rauf is just a baller through and through, he's been through it all, from protests, to losing interest in the game to coming back to the NBA and even the Big 3 years later. If Smith can pick up a few nuggets from him that'll be awesome.
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:Deeeez Knicks wrote:god shammgod wrote:
the stat in the middle is what i mean when i say people don't understand how much he affects winning. they compare him to other guys like mcgee or whoever who don't have the impact he does. he changes the game every time he enters.
Yea, pretty much every metric shows Mitch makes a big impact on both ends and was our best player. Despite horrible coaching, 0 spacing, and bad PG play he still broke the fg% record. He will only get better, just if we improve the situation and give him more minutes...then if he also can improve some areas of his game he has a lot of room to get better.
The problem here is that he has a low ceiling on offense, no amount of hypothetical scenarios of him putting the ball on the floor will change the fact he's got no post game, no jumper and relies on someone setting the table for him to eat. He is 100% a defensive rim runner, almost every good player that falls into that player type has had really good advanced stats at one point. Even if you want him to play a quasi Bam type role, the finals are showing that even Bam is going to need to be able to shoot it from outside, the Heat have a much better offensive rating now with Kelly Olynyk on the floor in the finals, and the Lakers have essentially abandoned playing Dwight & JaVale now. Your center has to be able to provide offense if you want to win, what Mitch does during the regular season is going to get him paid, but that stuff doesn't work in the playoffs when teams can gameplan for it, and it's even more damaging when the team has a max or near max rim roller on their salary.
Deeeez Knicks wrote:NoDopeOnSundays wrote:Deeeez Knicks wrote:
Yea, pretty much every metric shows Mitch makes a big impact on both ends and was our best player. Despite horrible coaching, 0 spacing, and bad PG play he still broke the fg% record. He will only get better, just if we improve the situation and give him more minutes...then if he also can improve some areas of his game he has a lot of room to get better.
The problem here is that he has a low ceiling on offense, no amount of hypothetical scenarios of him putting the ball on the floor will change the fact he's got no post game, no jumper and relies on someone setting the table for him to eat. He is 100% a defensive rim runner, almost every good player that falls into that player type has had really good advanced stats at one point. Even if you want him to play a quasi Bam type role, the finals are showing that even Bam is going to need to be able to shoot it from outside, the Heat have a much better offensive rating now with Kelly Olynyk on the floor in the finals, and the Lakers have essentially abandoned playing Dwight & JaVale now. Your center has to be able to provide offense if you want to win, what Mitch does during the regular season is going to get him paid, but that stuff doesn't work in the playoffs when teams can gameplan for it, and it's even more damaging when the team has a max or near max rim roller on their salary.
Anthony Davis is a superstar unicorn and a matchup nightmare. I think everyone would agree that if we could get a player like that we would be better off. But those guys are hard to find.
In terms of Miami, Bam still helped them get to the finals and is a hell of a player. Not sure I would be quick to infer you cant win with him when they are making a nice run. They are just overmatched right now against the Lakers. Lebron and AD are a sick combo. Lebron has also won with Tristan Thompson and Haslem too. He is one of the best of all time, and AD is up there as well. Even still, they have basically been starting defensive rim running C's all playoffs too and rolling over everyone.
But Knicks can't even compare to those teams right now. We are nowhere near that level. What we have are some young, raw players still developing. We shouldnt give up on players so fast just because they dont match what the Lakers have or can't shoot yet. RJ is not Lebron or Butler either but doesnt mean we should trade him. Mitch is still young and raw. Not saying he will def develop more, but i certainly think it's possible. We just brought in all these developmental coaches and he will no doubt look a lot better on the court in a better situation. Even as raw as Mitch was, it was pretty amazing how much value he brought to this team. We def look a lot better with Mitch on the floor on both ends and the numbers all back that up.
I get it, we haven't had a lot of good young players, but this one is fools gold that will post some nice regular season numbers but in a series with say, the Sixers, they can actually just guard him with Ben Simmons on a switch. You can gameplan these guys off the floor if a coach is good enough, it's not like he's some unseen talent, teams know what to do when guys like him are on the court now. 
Ray Williams wrote:Clyde_Style wrote:NewYorkPride85 wrote:
I’ve never commented on this but I always wondered why Wiseman can’t play the 4? He’s supposed to be Davis light and Davis loves to play the 4. Two hyper athletic bigs and one with the fínese to shoot the ball. That and the fact that we have Payne who is credited greatly to Davis’s growth. I would trade up just for him alone if he is on the board past 4 even if it means taking back an awful contract to do so.
He looks like a 4 to me. That's why I said spacing would not be an issue. He's a face the basket guy who can create for himself. You want him setting up from the perimeter to maximize his inside/out/pass options. I'd look at him as more of a Durant type player than a center.
Wiseman would guarantee Knox is at best a 2nd unit player or being traded or dropped. He does most of the things Knox is supposed to do, but never has
Frank and RJ can be used as 2/3 depending on the unit
PG
Frank
RJ
Wiseman
Mitch
is a really nice lineup IF Frank and RJ continue to improve from 3. PG there is reserved for either Smith if he shows up and produces or someone else
Put FVV at PG and that team can do some damage
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:Deeeez Knicks wrote:NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
The problem here is that he has a low ceiling on offense, no amount of hypothetical scenarios of him putting the ball on the floor will change the fact he's got no post game, no jumper and relies on someone setting the table for him to eat. He is 100% a defensive rim runner, almost every good player that falls into that player type has had really good advanced stats at one point. Even if you want him to play a quasi Bam type role, the finals are showing that even Bam is going to need to be able to shoot it from outside, the Heat have a much better offensive rating now with Kelly Olynyk on the floor in the finals, and the Lakers have essentially abandoned playing Dwight & JaVale now. Your center has to be able to provide offense if you want to win, what Mitch does during the regular season is going to get him paid, but that stuff doesn't work in the playoffs when teams can gameplan for it, and it's even more damaging when the team has a max or near max rim roller on their salary.
Anthony Davis is a superstar unicorn and a matchup nightmare. I think everyone would agree that if we could get a player like that we would be better off. But those guys are hard to find.
In terms of Miami, Bam still helped them get to the finals and is a hell of a player. Not sure I would be quick to infer you cant win with him when they are making a nice run. They are just overmatched right now against the Lakers. Lebron and AD are a sick combo. Lebron has also won with Tristan Thompson and Haslem too. He is one of the best of all time, and AD is up there as well. Even still, they have basically been starting defensive rim running C's all playoffs too and rolling over everyone.
But Knicks can't even compare to those teams right now. We are nowhere near that level. What we have are some young, raw players still developing. We shouldnt give up on players so fast just because they dont match what the Lakers have or can't shoot yet. RJ is not Lebron or Butler either but doesnt mean we should trade him. Mitch is still young and raw. Not saying he will def develop more, but i certainly think it's possible. We just brought in all these developmental coaches and he will no doubt look a lot better on the court in a better situation. Even as raw as Mitch was, it was pretty amazing how much value he brought to this team. We def look a lot better with Mitch on the floor on both ends and the numbers all back that up.
We shouldn't be putting a lot of money into the C spot if it's not a Jokic, Embiid, Davis type of talent, that's really the point. They have been starting rim rollers on vet minimum deals, are we going to sign Mitch to a contract like that? Everyone thought the contract Tristan got was awful, and the Heat won the titles with Bosh at C, and even then Haslem wasn't a rim roller, he was a mid range pick and pop guy.
Bam isn't solely just a rim runner, they run offense through him and even then the fact that he can't score reliably or space the floor has become a problem. And, I think long term you'll see Bam start shooting threes next season or the season after that. I don't just want to make the finals, I want us to ultimately win it, and nobody is doing that with a max contract rim roller. Mitch is going to get paid based on what he does, that is a fact, and to me it sounds like the Knicks are at least a little worried about that as well.
I don't really put too much stock into how much value Mitch brought to a bad team, Andre Drummond posted some great advanced stats his first couple years, and we see how that's turned out. Also, he's 22, being raw at 22 for a big isn't really a good thing at this point. He's not going to be afforded a lot of chances to play outside of his comfort zone, he's going to rim roll, even in some of the early clips of him working out with our coaches all he was doing was dunking either hand under the rim
god shammgod wrote:Deeeez Knicks wrote:
the stat in the middle is what i mean when i say people don't understand how much he affects winning. they compare him to other guys like mcgee or whoever who don't have the impact he does. he changes the game every time he enters.
god shammgod wrote:Deeeez Knicks wrote:
the stat in the middle is what i mean when i say people don't understand how much he affects winning. they compare him to other guys like mcgee or whoever who don't have the impact he does. he changes the game every time he enters.
Deeeez Knicks wrote:NoDopeOnSundays wrote:Deeeez Knicks wrote:
Anthony Davis is a superstar unicorn and a matchup nightmare. I think everyone would agree that if we could get a player like that we would be better off. But those guys are hard to find.
In terms of Miami, Bam still helped them get to the finals and is a hell of a player. Not sure I would be quick to infer you cant win with him when they are making a nice run. They are just overmatched right now against the Lakers. Lebron and AD are a sick combo. Lebron has also won with Tristan Thompson and Haslem too. He is one of the best of all time, and AD is up there as well. Even still, they have basically been starting defensive rim running C's all playoffs too and rolling over everyone.
But Knicks can't even compare to those teams right now. We are nowhere near that level. What we have are some young, raw players still developing. We shouldnt give up on players so fast just because they dont match what the Lakers have or can't shoot yet. RJ is not Lebron or Butler either but doesnt mean we should trade him. Mitch is still young and raw. Not saying he will def develop more, but i certainly think it's possible. We just brought in all these developmental coaches and he will no doubt look a lot better on the court in a better situation. Even as raw as Mitch was, it was pretty amazing how much value he brought to this team. We def look a lot better with Mitch on the floor on both ends and the numbers all back that up.
We shouldn't be putting a lot of money into the C spot if it's not a Jokic, Embiid, Davis type of talent, that's really the point. They have been starting rim rollers on vet minimum deals, are we going to sign Mitch to a contract like that? Everyone thought the contract Tristan got was awful, and the Heat won the titles with Bosh at C, and even then Haslem wasn't a rim roller, he was a mid range pick and pop guy.
Bam isn't solely just a rim runner, they run offense through him and even then the fact that he can't score reliably or space the floor has become a problem. And, I think long term you'll see Bam start shooting threes next season or the season after that. I don't just want to make the finals, I want us to ultimately win it, and nobody is doing that with a max contract rim roller. Mitch is going to get paid based on what he does, that is a fact, and to me it sounds like the Knicks are at least a little worried about that as well.
I don't really put too much stock into how much value Mitch brought to a bad team, Andre Drummond posted some great advanced stats his first couple years, and we see how that's turned out. Also, he's 22, being raw at 22 for a big isn't really a good thing at this point. He's not going to be afforded a lot of chances to play outside of his comfort zone, he's going to rim roll, even in some of the early clips of him working out with our coaches all he was doing was dunking either hand under the rim
I don't think anyone wants to give him Embiid money. He is only making $1.5mil the next 2 years. His max extension would be around $15 or $16mil. Even his max extension is reasonable. Its a very team friendly deal and much to our benefit.
Im not totally against trading him either if we can get a good deal. But it seems like a bad time to do so. Its like trading a stock right before its about to go up and the market for rim running bigs is really bad too. It would be selling low.
I def see the trend your talking about, but so does every team which is why the market for non-shooters is bad. There are still multiple ways to build teams and the trends change pretty often.
Plus, i do still think Mitch can be an impact player worth keeping.
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:Deeeez Knicks wrote:NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
We shouldn't be putting a lot of money into the C spot if it's not a Jokic, Embiid, Davis type of talent, that's really the point. They have been starting rim rollers on vet minimum deals, are we going to sign Mitch to a contract like that? Everyone thought the contract Tristan got was awful, and the Heat won the titles with Bosh at C, and even then Haslem wasn't a rim roller, he was a mid range pick and pop guy.
Bam isn't solely just a rim runner, they run offense through him and even then the fact that he can't score reliably or space the floor has become a problem. And, I think long term you'll see Bam start shooting threes next season or the season after that. I don't just want to make the finals, I want us to ultimately win it, and nobody is doing that with a max contract rim roller. Mitch is going to get paid based on what he does, that is a fact, and to me it sounds like the Knicks are at least a little worried about that as well.
I don't really put too much stock into how much value Mitch brought to a bad team, Andre Drummond posted some great advanced stats his first couple years, and we see how that's turned out. Also, he's 22, being raw at 22 for a big isn't really a good thing at this point. He's not going to be afforded a lot of chances to play outside of his comfort zone, he's going to rim roll, even in some of the early clips of him working out with our coaches all he was doing was dunking either hand under the rim
I don't think anyone wants to give him Embiid money. He is only making $1.5mil the next 2 years. His max extension would be around $15 or $16mil. Even his max extension is reasonable. Its a very team friendly deal and much to our benefit.
Im not totally against trading him either if we can get a good deal. But it seems like a bad time to do so. Its like trading a stock right before its about to go up and the market for rim running bigs is really bad too. It would be selling low.
I def see the trend your talking about, but so does every team which is why the market for non-shooters is bad. There are still multiple ways to build teams and the trends change pretty often.
Plus, i do still think Mitch can be an impact player worth keeping.
I think that's too much for him to be honest, the center position has changed and as such I think that if you don't have an Embiid/Jokic/KAT/AD type of guy you're better off with a vet minimum guy or at the very least somebody making less than $10 million per. The center position is the RB of the NBA now, if they aren't truly elite guys in the top 25, you shouldn't spend any real money on them.
You have to take into account the decreasing salary cap, I think we'll see it dropping for the next few years, so I don't want a guy like Mitch making 15% of the cap or more.
Deeeez Knicks wrote:NoDopeOnSundays wrote:Deeeez Knicks wrote:
I don't think anyone wants to give him Embiid money. He is only making $1.5mil the next 2 years. His max extension would be around $15 or $16mil. Even his max extension is reasonable. Its a very team friendly deal and much to our benefit.
Im not totally against trading him either if we can get a good deal. But it seems like a bad time to do so. Its like trading a stock right before its about to go up and the market for rim running bigs is really bad too. It would be selling low.
I def see the trend your talking about, but so does every team which is why the market for non-shooters is bad. There are still multiple ways to build teams and the trends change pretty often.
Plus, i do still think Mitch can be an impact player worth keeping.
I think that's too much for him to be honest, the center position has changed and as such I think that if you don't have an Embiid/Jokic/KAT/AD type of guy you're better off with a vet minimum guy or at the very least somebody making less than $10 million per. The center position is the RB of the NBA now, if they aren't truly elite guys in the top 25, you shouldn't spend any real money on them.
You have to take into account the decreasing salary cap, I think we'll see it dropping for the next few years, so I don't want a guy like Mitch making 15% of the cap or more.
I think there's a lot of in between. Raptors just won with a mid tier C in Marc Gasol making $25mil. Cavs won with Tristan making $15mil. Mavs won with Chandler, etc.
It really all depends on roster construction and there are a lot of ways that can be done.
Lakers have most of their money tied into Lebron and AD and were able to get a ton of ring chasers for cheap so it worked out. They didn't need to spend on C's since AD can play a lot of minutes in that spot. But they also really didn't need to spend in a lot of positions since they were able to get guys like Rondo, Dwight, Kieff, Mcgee, etc for cheap. Its hard to replicate that unless you have players like Lebron/AD.
We are not paying Mitch yet. If the cap decreases, then Mitch's contract will decrease with that so it will have to be factored in. As it is, right now he's making lie 1% of the cap?? That is a huge bargain and advantage especially if we time free agents right.
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:Deeeez Knicks wrote:NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
I think that's too much for him to be honest, the center position has changed and as such I think that if you don't have an Embiid/Jokic/KAT/AD type of guy you're better off with a vet minimum guy or at the very least somebody making less than $10 million per. The center position is the RB of the NBA now, if they aren't truly elite guys in the top 25, you shouldn't spend any real money on them.
You have to take into account the decreasing salary cap, I think we'll see it dropping for the next few years, so I don't want a guy like Mitch making 15% of the cap or more.
I think there's a lot of in between. Raptors just won with a mid tier C in Marc Gasol making $25mil. Cavs won with Tristan making $15mil. Mavs won with Chandler, etc.
It really all depends on roster construction and there are a lot of ways that can be done.
Lakers have most of their money tied into Lebron and AD and were able to get a ton of ring chasers for cheap so it worked out. They didn't need to spend on C's since AD can play a lot of minutes in that spot. But they also really didn't need to spend in a lot of positions since they were able to get guys like Rondo, Dwight, Kieff, Mcgee, etc for cheap. Its hard to replicate that unless you have players like Lebron/AD.
We are not paying Mitch yet. If the cap decreases, then Mitch's contract will decrease with that so it will have to be factored in. As it is, right now he's making lie 1% of the cap?? That is a huge bargain and advantage especially if we time free agents right.
Marc Gasol shot 38% from three in the playoffs on 4 attempts per game, he was brought in specifically to defend Embiid and space the floor. If Mitch shot 38% from three I'd be saying to sign him to a max, but he didn't, we're strictly talking about rim runners. The deal Tristan got is only because he's with Klutch, if he weren't they probably would have done the same thing as the Lakers or Warriors, which is sign a vet min guy.
Dwight had a big impact on the WCF, he's a vet minimum guy, the point is that you can find vet min centers everywhere. Mitch is only a bargain while he's on the rookie deal, and that is only for another year, after that he's going to get paid and we should read the room, those type of centers should not be getting that kind of money. We shouldn't get caught up in Mitch's numbers, we should look at the player he projects to be and work from there, look around the league and see what the good teams think of those type of players and move like them.
