2019-2020 College/Draft thread X [marks the spot] (Knicks own #8 pick, 11/18 DRAFT)

[DOT]

Robinson averaged 5.6 FGA and 9.7 PPG in 23 MPG. Lets calm down about his FG%. He can dunk, that's as far as his offense goes

The thing people are arguing is, you can say pretty much the same of Wiseman

We haven't seen enough to say he has an offensive game outside of dunking, so it's inconsistent to want to trade Mitch while praising Wiseman

Sure he has potential to improve his shot, but he really doesn't have it right now.

[stuporman]

There’s no rim runner in basketball history that has went from 0 offense to being a threat on offense. You guys are betting with no odds in your favor. It’s like saying Clint Capela is gonna start hitting jump shots. Lol

The player with the best single season FG% in history and had the best TS% in the league last year is 0 offense? That take shows 0 intelligence....

I am assuming you never watched a Knicks game the past 2 years. Mitch’s FG% is high because he only does wide open dunks.
Deandre Jordan also had averaged 71% FG in one season. Pretty sure no one here thinks Jordan can hit jumpers. So your take shows -100 intelligence

Do the points off dunks count on the scoreboard?

I don't see anyone suggesting he will become a long range sniper overnight but to say the havoc a guy who crashes the rim as effectively and score the points as efficiently as he does isn't offense is nonsense.

...and thank you, I know my take is 100% intelligence because..... it's 100%.

[Deeeez Knicks]

There’s no rim runner in basketball history that has went from 0 offense to being a threat on offense. You guys are betting with no odds in your favor. It’s like saying Clint Capela is gonna start hitting jump shots. Lol

Raw bigs develop all the time. Even more recently John Collins didnt even attempt a 3 in college and avg 7.3ppg as a freshmen is now hitting over a 3 a game and almost 20ppg

I was big on John Collins coming out of college while everyone else was slurping Zach Collins. John as a sophomore was a great scorer and averaged like 20 PPG. He didn’t get much minutes as a fresh man.

I don't remember him freshman year, but I am sure he didnt get a ton of minutes cause his game was still developing and he was raw. He def worked and improved on his game.

I dont expect Mitch to be John Collins, but def think he can improve and add some things to his game.

That same argument could even be used for Wiseman

I wouldnt write either guy off...its just that we have Mitch and we probably cant get Wiseman

[HEZI]

Robinson averaged 5.6 FGA and 9.7 PPG in 23 MPG. Lets calm down about his FG%. He can dunk, that's as far as his offense goes

The thing people are arguing is, you can say pretty much the same of Wiseman

We haven't seen enough to say he has an offensive game outside of dunking, so it's inconsistent to want to trade Mitch while praising Wiseman

Sure he has potential to improve his shot, but he really doesn't have it right now.

The thing with Wiseman is that he will attempt shots outside the paint. Robinson will not even look at the rim. Robinson wont even attempt a shot unless he is in dunking position, he has no jump stop move, no baby hook, no floater, like absolutely nothing besides a dunk. Is Wiseman that limited? Even Dwight had an over the shoulder go to hook that was his go to in Orlando and at the very least I can see Wiseman having that. Mitch, not even that.

[3toheadmelo]

The player with the best single season FG% in history and had the best TS% in the league last year is 0 offense? That take shows 0 intelligence....

I am assuming you never watched a Knicks game the past 2 years. Mitch’s FG% is high because he only does wide open dunks.
Deandre Jordan also had averaged 71% FG in one season. Pretty sure no one here thinks Jordan can hit jumpers. So your take shows -100 intelligence

Do the points off dunks count on the scoreboard?

I don't see anyone suggesting he will become a long range sniper overnight but to say the havoc a guy who crashes the rim as effectively and score the points as efficiently as he does isn't offense is nonsense.

...and thank you, I know my take is 100% intelligence because..... it's 100%.

Yeah well you’re in a real small minority if you think dunking the ball while you’re wide open is being an offensive player. You probably think Deandre Jordan is some big time scorer with that thinking

[god shammgod]

marci did a statistical deep dive on knicks lineups today -

https://knicksfilmschool.substack.com/

basically the conclusion was that mitch made the knicks really good on.....offense.

From December 7 on, the combo of Payton, Robinson, Barrett and Randle played a total of 213 minutes. Here’s how they fared:

Peep that number at the end: a 56.3 effective field goal percentage. WOW! That number would have led the league by a comfortable margin had it been achieved over the course of a full season.

I was starting to wonder if maybe I had been too harsh on Elfrid, Julius, and yes, RJ, so I decided to check out other four-man lineups that had played at least 200 minutes from when Miller took over to see where else those three showed up:

Oh I see where this is going.

Let’s keep it at 200 minutes minimum, but change the search to three-man units, and rank these babies by net rating:
(Sorry if you just went blind…I should have told you the important part was coming up)

Now let’s look and see how often each of Elf, Julius, RJ and Mitch appeared in each of these lineups (which are still sorted by best to worst net rating) to see who is really having the outsized impact:

Doesn’t take long to spot the outlier, huh?

And of course, on the opposite end of the spectrum (and it pains me to say this, because he can still help a team in the right role, is an awesome guy, and it’s not his fault this franchise had him starting games at the damn age of 35) is Taj Gibson, who appeared in seven out of the worst nine lineups by net rating and six of the nine worst by offensive rating.

So, friends, what did we learn today? A few things:

I really need to get a life

Mitchell Robinson is really freaking good at basketball

[Deeeez Knicks]

Robinson averaged 5.6 FGA and 9.7 PPG in 23 MPG. Lets calm down about his FG%. He can dunk, that's as far as his offense goes

That is still pretty impressive numbers though. Especially given the circumstances. Just being able to score that much on dunks, with a percentage that nobody has ever matched in NBA history, with horrible spacing and bad PG play.

[3toheadmelo]

Raw bigs develop all the time. Even more recently John Collins didnt even attempt a 3 in college and avg 7.3ppg as a freshmen is now hitting over a 3 a game and almost 20ppg

I was big on John Collins coming out of college while everyone else was slurping Zach Collins. John as a sophomore was a great scorer and averaged like 20 PPG. He didn’t get much minutes as a fresh man.

I don't remember him freshman year, but I am sure he didnt get a ton of minutes cause his game was still developing and he was raw. He def worked and improved on his game.

I dont expect Mitch to be John Collins, but def think he can improve and add some things to his game.

That same argument could even be used for Wiseman

I wouldnt write either guy off...its just that we have Mitch and we probably cant get Wiseman

I’m just saying I rather have Wiseman if we can trade up for him lol.

I think Obi will be more like John Collins tho

[DOT]

Robinson averaged 5.6 FGA and 9.7 PPG in 23 MPG. Lets calm down about his FG%. He can dunk, that's as far as his offense goes

The thing people are arguing is, you can say pretty much the same of Wiseman

We haven't seen enough to say he has an offensive game outside of dunking, so it's inconsistent to want to trade Mitch while praising Wiseman

Sure he has potential to improve his shot, but he really doesn't have it right now.

The thing with Wiseman is that he will attempt shots outside the paint. Robinson will not even look at the rim. Robinson wont even attempt a shot unless he is in dunking position, he has no jump stop move, no baby hook, no floater, like absolutely nothing besides a dunk. Is Wiseman that limited? Even Dwight had an over the shoulder go to hook that was his go to in Orlando and at the very least I can see Wiseman having that. Mitch, not even that.

Yeah, Wiseman has a more advanced offensive game

But it's not so advanced to the point where the people saying trade Mitch should want him. He's still very raw on that end himself

[HEZI]

Robinson averaged 5.6 FGA and 9.7 PPG in 23 MPG. Lets calm down about his FG%. He can dunk, that's as far as his offense goes

That is still pretty impressive numbers though. Especially given the circumstances. Just being able to score that much on dunks, with a percentage that nobody has ever matched in NBA history, with horrible spacing and bad PG play.

It's really not for those very reasons you mentioned. We shot a lot of bricks. A lot of his points came off that just like when Kanter was here and used to do the same. Kanter averaged 3.8 offensive boards in 26 MPG cleaning up our bricks. Robinson averaged 3.0 offensive boards and we were even worse shooting last year than with Kanter. There were so many bricks to benefit from. Robinson is a great athlete but he's not very skilled. He can definitely do some positive things on the court but I think getting carried away with his FG% is a bit foolish. We know what he does and what he doesn't do, there's no need to try to trick ourselves into thinking there's more to it.

[stuporman]

I am assuming you never watched a Knicks game the past 2 years. Mitch’s FG% is high because he only does wide open dunks.
Deandre Jordan also had averaged 71% FG in one season. Pretty sure no one here thinks Jordan can hit jumpers. So your take shows -100 intelligence

Do the points off dunks count on the scoreboard?

I don't see anyone suggesting he will become a long range sniper overnight but to say the havoc a guy who crashes the rim as effectively and score the points as efficiently as he does isn't offense is nonsense.

...and thank you, I know my take is 100% intelligence because..... it's 100%.

Yeah well you’re in a real small minority if you think dunking the ball while you’re wide open is being an offensive player. You probably think Deandre Jordan is some big time scorer with that thinking

You keep sticking that qualifier of 'wide open' on dunk like you think it means something....well it does mean something, it means you have nothing so are trying to manufacture a point because it's only in your mind that he 'only' scores on 'wide open dunks'.

Then you go constructing a straw man about 'you probably think' well when you get that strawman's grass off your mind come back with a real argument because until then I'm not going to have a discussion with the figments of your imagination.

[HEZI]

The thing people are arguing is, you can say pretty much the same of Wiseman

We haven't seen enough to say he has an offensive game outside of dunking, so it's inconsistent to want to trade Mitch while praising Wiseman

Sure he has potential to improve his shot, but he really doesn't have it right now.

The thing with Wiseman is that he will attempt shots outside the paint. Robinson will not even look at the rim. Robinson wont even attempt a shot unless he is in dunking position, he has no jump stop move, no baby hook, no floater, like absolutely nothing besides a dunk. Is Wiseman that limited? Even Dwight had an over the shoulder go to hook that was his go to in Orlando and at the very least I can see Wiseman having that. Mitch, not even that.

Yeah, Wiseman has a more advanced offensive game

But it's not so advanced to the point where the people saying trade Mitch should want him. He's still very raw on that end himself

Wiseman is still 19 and already more skilled than Mitch who is 22. I get the intrigue with wanting to bank on Wiseman as his potential and skill is just better. Whether we should do it is another story but I do get the intrigue with Wiseman.

[HEZI]

When it comes down to it, bigs with not much offensive skill especially if they can't hit jumpers will hurt you in the playoffs. The game is about versatility and if you can't help space the floor for your ball handlers then you become a liability

[Deeeez Knicks]

Robinson averaged 5.6 FGA and 9.7 PPG in 23 MPG. Lets calm down about his FG%. He can dunk, that's as far as his offense goes

That is still pretty impressive numbers though. Especially given the circumstances. Just being able to score that much on dunks, with a percentage that nobody has ever matched in NBA history, with horrible spacing and bad PG play.

It's really not for those very reasons you mentioned. We shot a lot of bricks. A lot of his points came off that just like when Kanter was here and used to do the same. Kanter averaged 3.8 offensive boards in 26 MPG cleaning up our bricks. Robinson averaged 3.0 offensive boards and we were even worse shooting last year than with Kanter. There were so many bricks to benefit from. Robinson is a great athlete but he's not very skilled. He can definitely do some positive things on the court but I think getting carried away with his FG% is a bit foolish. We know what he does and what he doesn't do, there's no need to try to trick ourselves into thinking there's more to it.

Mitch is def good on the offensive boards. That is another plus. There's value in getting easy buckets and offensive boards, along with being an elite pick n roll finisher. That is probably why our offensive rating is a lot higher with Mitch by every metric.

Kanters problem was always on the defensive end. Kanter still grabbed offensive rebounds at a higher rate in Port and Boston the last 2 years so I dont think the Knicks bricking at a higher rate necessarily makes a big difference. Think if we had better spacing/PG play it would help Mitch a lot more then more bricks

[Juco24]

CBS latest mock has Hayes going to us... Okongwu is the wildcard here I think. I've seen how his stock is rising. Either way, I'm feeling positive about our draft position. Not sure I'd give up Mitch... YET

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/2020-nba-mock-draft-anthony-edwards-jumps-up-to-no-2-to-the-warriors-behind-no-1-pick-lamelo-ball/

[3toheadmelo]

Do the points off dunks count on the scoreboard?

I don't see anyone suggesting he will become a long range sniper overnight but to say the havoc a guy who crashes the rim as effectively and score the points as efficiently as he does isn't offense is nonsense.

...and thank you, I know my take is 100% intelligence because..... it's 100%.

Yeah well you’re in a real small minority if you think dunking the ball while you’re wide open is being an offensive player. You probably think Deandre Jordan is some big time scorer with that thinking

You keep sticking that qualifier of 'wide open' on dunk like you think it means something....well it does mean something, it means you have nothing so are trying to manufacture a point because it's only in your mind that he 'only' scores on 'wide open dunks'.

Then you go constructing a straw man about 'you probably think' well when you get that strawman's grass off your mind come back with a real argument because until then I'm not going to have a discussion with the figments of your imagination.

Like I said it’s obvious you don’t even watch Knicks games and you’re in a fantasy world right now. So let me know when you come to reality. Imagine hyping up rim runners in 2020 sad

[mpharris36]

When it comes down to it, bigs with not much offensive skill especially if they can't hit jumpers will hurt you in the playoffs. The game is about versatility and if you can't help space the floor for your ball handlers then you become a liability

I think it depends if they are used as a rim runner and you can throw lobs to them they are valuable if they can also dominant on the defensive end.

Mitch is freakish enough where his roll game needs to be accounted for because he can literally jump higher than almost every big meaning you have to tag him on the roll or its an easy dunk. Its why he simply has such a high FG% because no one can defend his shots as he is higher at the rim then anyone.

For example Steven Adams is a roller to the basket but doesn't play above the rim so he's not really a threat. Mitch is a different type of threat.

[HEZI]

That is still pretty impressive numbers though. Especially given the circumstances. Just being able to score that much on dunks, with a percentage that nobody has ever matched in NBA history, with horrible spacing and bad PG play.

It's really not for those very reasons you mentioned. We shot a lot of bricks. A lot of his points came off that just like when Kanter was here and used to do the same. Kanter averaged 3.8 offensive boards in 26 MPG cleaning up our bricks. Robinson averaged 3.0 offensive boards and we were even worse shooting last year than with Kanter. There were so many bricks to benefit from. Robinson is a great athlete but he's not very skilled. He can definitely do some positive things on the court but I think getting carried away with his FG% is a bit foolish. We know what he does and what he doesn't do, there's no need to try to trick ourselves into thinking there's more to it.

Mitch is def good on the offensive boards. That is another plus. There's value in getting easy buckets and offensive boards, along with being an elite pick n roll finisher. That is probably why our offensive rating is a lot higher with Mitch by every metric.

Kanters problem was always on the defensive end. Kanter still grabbed offensive rebounds at a higher rate in Port and Boston the last 2 years so I dont think the Knicks bricking at a higher rate necessarily makes a big difference. Think if we had better spacing/PG play it would help Mitch a lot more then more bricks

It's a good thing to have off the bench but if we are talking about legit starter quality then those type of guys have been faded out. The Tyson Chandler's and Deandre Jordan's of the league have become situational starters and backups. This is the role some see Mitch thriving in, providing energy, rebounds and athleticism off the bench. Having somebody in front of him with more actual skill would be ideal, preferably somebody who can stretch the floor. But ultimately what we need is better perimeter players as no rim running bigs are taking any team anywhere.

[HEZI]

When it comes down to it, bigs with not much offensive skill especially if they can't hit jumpers will hurt you in the playoffs. The game is about versatility and if you can't help space the floor for your ball handlers then you become a liability

I think it depends if they are used as a rim runner and you can throw lobs to them they are valuable if they can also dominant on the defensive end.

Mitch is freakish enough where his roll game needs to be accounted for because he can literally jump higher than almost every big meaning you have to tag him on the roll or its an easy dunk. Its why he simply has such a high FG% because no one can defend his shots as he is higher at the rim then anyone.

For example Steven Adams is a roller to the basket but doesn't play above the rim so he's not really a threat. Mitch is a different type of threat.

But nobody cares about Mitch on offense. Mitch isn't carrying any team to any wins by just rolling to the basket. That play, when teams really want to, can be shut down easily. Teams know how to shut it down. What teams really struggle defending is the pick and pop and that's where bigs make a living nowadays. Especially if you can put the ball on the floor off a fake and make a play driving to the basket. Mitch himself struggles defending those guys, but he will look great against the Deandre Jordan's and Jarrett Allens of the league because they play just like him.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

The player with the best single season FG% in history and had the best TS% in the league last year is 0 offense? That take shows 0 intelligence....

I am assuming you never watched a Knicks game the past 2 years. Mitch’s FG% is high because he only does wide open dunks.
Deandre Jordan also had averaged 71% FG in one season. Pretty sure no one here thinks Jordan can hit jumpers. So your take shows -100 intelligence

Do the points off dunks count on the scoreboard?

I don't see anyone suggesting he will become a long range sniper overnight but to say the havoc a guy who crashes the rim as effectively and score the points as efficiently as he does isn't offense is nonsense.

...and thank you, I know my take is 100% intelligence because..... it's 100%.

It's not nonsense, guys who can't create offense for themselves are a liability when it matters and if crashing the rim is your main mode of generating offense chances are your team is going to lose in the playoffs. His shot profile looks almost exactly like every other rim runners, nearly 70% of his shots are assisted. He shot a high percentage sure, but he was also going against primarily second units.

Rudy Gobert shot 69% against starters, nobody would ever say he causes havoc on offense. We should look at the playoffs as a predictor of the future, last year the Raptors won using a box and 1 zone, this year the Heat made it to the finals with a 2-3 zone. Bigs are going to need to be able to do more than just rim roll soon, it's a copycat league and teams with bad individual defenders are going to start using zones more.